Response to Krsna regarding initiation

[brajeshwara das]

 

It sure is easy to cherry pick when one lives atop an Ivory tower.

 

A neophyte follows strictly every detailed nuance of each order given by his Spiritual Master. Rules and Regs are the life. If someone is so conditioned that their spiritual master institutionalizes them, that should be considered the necessary mercy, and every rule and procedure followed to the T.

 

From this strict sometimes sweet and sometimes bitter Vaidhi Sadhana, one naturally makes a transition to Raganuga sadhana, apparently performing the same activities, following the same rules and regs, but subjectively that bhakta has the sense of engaging in spontaneous activity. Inconceivable but true, this is mentioned in the Nectar of Devotion.

 

So anyone who is "no longer interested" in some procedure that an Acharya considered important enough to include in the sadhana offered to his disciples, they have become asara or useless to that particular mission, and certainly have not passed through vaidhi bhakti sadhana, forget being in anyway authorized or deserving of holding opinions on methods of a great Acharya.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Had theist taken initiation then deviated, sure your statement above may be valid. But he hasn't. I don't know how you think it is helpful to abuse him, which is what I consider you are doing. We should welcome people with interest to devotional life, not turn them away because they have very slight differences of opinion.

[brajeshwara das]

One other thing - who can follow all the rules and regulations perfectly? Who does? "Let the man without a sin upon his head cast the first stone." This is the point of tolerance, humility, and showing respect to others. The more I think about this the more it saddens me that it is common around here to treat people this way. Dayal Nitai, may the Lord forgive my offences.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

One other thing - who can follow all the rules and regulations perfectly? Who does? "Let the man without a sin upon his head cast the first stone." This is the point of tolerance, humility, and showing respect to others. The more I think about this the more it saddens me that it is common around here to treat people this way. Dayal Nitai, may the Lord forgive my offences.

 

Sorry to have disturbed your mind Braj Prabhu, but all sentimentality aside, If you care to read painstakingly everything I said, and ALL of the purport of both CC verses I mentioned, you will see that I stick with facts, and try to illicit a discussion.

 

There is no abuse here, unless you consider the destruction of a mental illusion to be abuse.

 

It just gets my goat when I actually point out where someone is mistaken in philosophy, and the recipient just defends the indefensible by cherry picking. I thought we were supposed to be looking forward to discovering where the truth was hidden for us.

 

This is not a fashion show, a beauty pageant, or a popularity contest.

 

Pride should be left at the door of spiritual discussions if possible.

 

It is such a simple concept. Anyone who claims to be a disciple of an Acharya will continue to appear to follow all of the rules and regs, even when spontaneously engaged in exalted raganuga sadhana.

 

This is a very clear cut method of determining whether or not someone is cheating. There is no talk against any of the "devotional" rules and regs, nor is there any talk against principles of management of the matha, especially when the Acharya said there is to be NO CHANGE in management.

 

The advanced souls may skip being formally initiated all together. They would never speak of the ceremony as unimportant, and unnecessary considering how many millions of conditioned jivas will require this as part of their sadhana of reducing their offenses to the holy name. Especially not in front of disciples of another Acharya who set things up exactly so.

 

Don't shoot the messenger please. Better to spend some energy scrounging up some old clothes to cover the Emperor. It is cold out today.

 

Can't anyone else see this?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

One other thing - who can follow all the rules and regulations perfectly? Who does? "Let the man without a sin upon his head cast the first stone." This is the point of tolerance, humility, and showing respect to others. The more I think about this the more it saddens me that it is common around here to treat people this way. Dayal Nitai, may the Lord forgive my offences.

 

This is not the point. We each must follow the rules and regs strictly as as we are able to. Do or die. That is perfect.

 

Perfection is following strictly according to one's own conscience. Only that will yield the fruit. And during that process there is no call for questioning a Mahabhagavat Acharya, and second guessing the methods of his institution now is there?

 

So we follow strictly and then each of us, at a different point, will be granted access to the transcendental vision, and our ritual following remains largely the same from external vision, but becomes spontaneous in reality. Srila Prabhupada says this in Nectar of Devotion chap. 2 check it out.

 

The point is when someone is not following strictly, it is to be assumed that they are advanced, for sometimes the advanced do not follow so strictly the rules and regs, still they are not to be derided.

 

If it is found they are not advanced, but simply sahajya and a little lazy, then this should be pointed out when they preach in public.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

Notice theist is specific in saying who he doesn't need initiation from:

I see no need for a stamp of approval in the form of a formal initiation by either the ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks.

This is different from him saying he doesn't need initiation from Guru. If he feels he has it from Srila Prabhupada who am I to say it isn't so? That is an internal affair. He is not advising others not to take shelter of Sri Guru but that he doesn't accept the authority of 'ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks.' Like I said previously, it's a matter of trust and his own internal business. Please try and see that.

 

Regarding rules and regulations, Krsna Consciousness is not all about rules and regs. It's ultimately about affection. I worship the ideal but shouldn't go around trying to hold a yardstick up to others to determine if they are following properly. The rules and regs are for me, not them.

[theist]

 

Yes Prabhu, I was just joking. The statement "As Acharya of your own mission" was pretty was far out there, I thought is was pretty funny. You have been nothing but helpful and kind to me, I hope I caused you no offense.

 

No No. This has happened a couple times now. I was really using your post to address the thrust of BD's post. I should be more clear.

 

The funny thing is my Dr. called me the "Shaman of his own temple" a couple weeks ago. I quiz him on everything he tries to give me for my blood pressure and have rejected several of his prescribed meds. He is not used to that.

 

Looks like I am getting a reputation. I live in infamy.

[theist]

 

It sure is easy to cherry pick when one lives atop an Ivory tower.

 

A neophyte follows strictly every detailed nuance of each order given by his Spiritual Master. Rules and Regs are the life. If someone is so conditioned that their spiritual master institutionalizes them, that should be considered the necessary mercy, and every rule and procedure followed to the T.

 

From this strict sometimes sweet and sometimes bitter Vaidhi Sadhana, one naturally makes a transition to Raganuga sadhana, apparently performing the same activities, following the same rules and regs, but subjectively that bhakta has the sense of engaging in spontaneous activity. Inconceivable but true, this is mentioned in the Nectar of Devotion.

 

So anyone who is "no longer interested" in some procedure that an Acharya considered important enough to include in the sadhana offered to his disciples, they have become asara or useless to that particular mission, and certainly have not passed through vaidhi bhakti sadhana, forget being in anyway authorized or deserving of holding opinions on methods of a great Acharya.

 

Hare Krsna

 

p.s. I take no liberties, I just do not speak pleasantly as if in social company, if I see the truth I talk about it, palatable or not, false ego's notwithstanding, especially in a place where people go for "spiritual discussion".

 

Since you like to speak in such a straight forward way I take it you can listen up in the same spirit when it comes back to you. From the first two paragraphs I see you want readers to think of you as a very strict follower of Bhaktivedanta who "follows every rule and procedure to the T."

 

Maybe so but I highly doubt it. I have seen so many people that think and speak like you fall down and have seen none that haven't. You can fool those around you for awhile with the ritually pure act but it is a fact that every wet dream, act of selfishness, feeling of superiority and hatred of others is seen by the Lord in the heart. We can't fool or bluff Krsna. So best to just drop the game Mr Bone Fide and return to earth. Like the Chinese proverb says, "It is the well grounded tree that grows the tallest and withstands the wind."

 

As to vaidih bhakti, I have stated numerous times that my position is below the standard of vaidhi bhakti and that is just a fact. No secret there.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Notice theist is specific in saying who he doesn't need initiation from:

This is different from him saying he doesn't need initiation from Guru. If he feels he has it from Srila Prabhupada who am I to say it isn't so? That is an internal affair. He is not advising others not to take shelter of Sri Guru but that he doesn't accept the authority of 'ecclesiastical guru walas or the self-appointed ritviks.' Like I said previously, it's a matter of trust and his own internal business. Please try and see that.

 

Regarding rules and regulations, Krsna Consciousness is not all about rules and regs. It's ultimately about affection. I worship the ideal but shouldn't go around trying to hold a yardstick up to others to determine if they are following properly. The rules and regs are for me, not them.

 

 

Yes Brajeshwara, you will find that is what all the quasi-intelligent pandits will say. They will set up a couple straw men like "self-appointed ritviks" and "ecclesiastical gurus", so easy to indicate their obvious deficiency of character and sastric standing.

 

But this does not hide the subtle but tacit overarching implication from the first utterance, that there was some major deficiency in the system that His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami set up, used himself, and left for posterity. Ritvik.

 

I am not implying any personal level of strict following of rules and regs. I am simply stating the siddhanta according to Srila Prabhupada, and using that to illustrate why certain things people proclaim, especially regarding his own mission, are garbage speculations and nothing more.

 

You'll notice a pretty good smokescreen has been thrown up by all these tangential discussions but my original question to the person, "Krsna", which was simple and straightforward, has gone unanswered.

 

By the way, I never implied KC is all about rules and regs. But everything I said regarding their usage and efficacy is straight outta Prabhupada, so if you got a problem with that take it up w/him. I also clearly stated that it was up to the individuals conscience to determine how strict a person needs to follow for their own level. I hate the way people don't even read what I write, and then write a paragraph like you did and make it look like I took a position I never did. Please stop that.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Since you like to speak in such a straight forward way I take it you can listen up in the same spirit when it comes back to you. From the first two paragraphs I see you want readers to think of you as a very strict follower of Bhaktivedanta who "follows every rule and procedure to the T."

 

Maybe so but I highly doubt it. I have seen so many people that think and speak like you fall down and have seen none that haven't. You can fool those around you for awhile with the ritually pure act but it is a fact that every wet dream, act of selfishness, feeling of superiority and hatred of others is seen by the Lord in the heart. We can't fool or bluff Krsna. So best to just drop the game Mr Bone Fide and return to earth. Like the Chinese proverb says, "It is the well grounded tree that grows the tallest and withstands the wind."

 

As to vaidih bhakti, I have stated numerous times that my position is below the standard of vaidhi bhakti and that is just a fact. No secret there.

Dear Theist.

 

You state that you see I want readers to think of me as a very strict follower of Bhaktivedanta who "follows every rule and procedure to the T."

 

Bas Prabhu. I expected a better jab then that if you won't just humbly eat some crow.

 

I, like lots of others around these parts, like to paraphrase a bit based on my realization, but I will always give a reference where someone can check out what I say.

 

In that case I was simply making a point. What I spoke was the truth. I have had some glimpses of Bhakti after Vaidhi, so I can relate to what Srila Prabhupada says about this.

 

And if one follows every rule and procedure, I refer to the one's they know about. I don't know all the rules yet. For example all of the offenses to avoid during Arcana for Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Vigraha, and the method of worship.

 

But those I know of and have been shown the context to apply them in, either I follow them or I don't. And the result of following all the rules and regs that Sri Guru makes me aware of, even if they seem mechanical and monotonous at first due to my lack of transcendental awareness, if I follow them, I get Raganuga realization, and the MAIN POINT WHICH EVERYONE SEEMS TO DANCE AROUND IS THAT AS PER SRILA PRABHUPADA AND PAST ACHARYAS, THE RULES AND REGS ARE GENERALLY STRICTLY FOLLOWED, EVEN BY ACHARYAS.

 

Someone who has been around as LONG as you have should understand quite well that it is not a matter there being some generic set of rules and regs and a timeframe they must be followed or there is no effect.

 

Vaidhi Sadhana is an individual thing in many ways, but the common denominator is Surrender to Authority, and for SOME TIME, following STRICTLY any order that pertains to one's self given by said authority.

 

Have I made myself clear? No ulterior motive, I am not promoting myself directly, just want to discuss or argue the FACTS. I do not feel the need to be falsely humble and declare some miserable neophyte position in order to be accepted. My neophyte position is actually more advanced than that. LOL.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

 

Yes Brajeshwara, you will find that is what all the quasi-intelligent pandits will say. They will set up a couple straw men like "self-appointed ritviks" and "ecclesiastical gurus", so easy to indicate their obvious deficiency of character and sastric standing.

 

But this does not hide the subtle but tacit overarching implication from the first utterance, that there was some major deficiency in the system that His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami set up, used himself, and left for posterity. Ritvik.

 

I am not implying any personal level of strict following of rules and regs. I am simply stating the siddhanta according to Srila Prabhupada, and using that to illustrate why certain things people proclaim, especially regarding his own mission, are garbage speculations and nothing more.

 

You'll notice a pretty good smokescreen has been thrown up by all these tangential discussions but my original question to the person, "Krsna", which was simple and straightforward, has gone unanswered.

 

By the way, I never implied KC is all about rules and regs. But everything I said regarding their usage and efficacy is straight outta Prabhupada, so if you got a problem with that take it up w/him. I also clearly stated that it was up to the individuals conscience to determine how strict a person needs to follow for their own level. I hate the way people don't even read what I write, and then write a paragraph like you did and make it look like I took a position I never did. Please stop that.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

Self-appointed ritviks. That's what he said. He isn't disregarding the wishes of Srila Swami Maharaj from what I understand. Are there any original ritviks left? I don't know, I'm not in ISKCON so I don't pay attention to that. But you can't blame anyone for not feeling comfortable because of the ritviks and gurus who have given ISKCON troubles in the past. When I was a bramachari I saw many devotees who's guru fell down come through shattered and suffering greatly, and not being able to trust enough to take shelter of my Gurudeva's lotus feet. They would take physical shelter, but rarely instruction. What should have been seva was rent. May no one have to endure that. Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada is not responsible for this of course, ISKCON is glorious and has a grand future. Please don't take my words the wrong way.

 

Anyhow, I think you are being unfair to theist, if you disagree then what can I say? Trinad api sunicena, you know the drill. Also I would caution that you should be careful because though you seem quite certain, you may not know who is a Vaisnava and what is what.

 

Dayal Nitai, please forgive my offenses.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna Brajeshwara,

 

First thank you for your concern about my well being.

 

Second, I know what he said, and that was all fine and agreeable, that is what a straw man is. Very easy to point to and say, that is bad. Everyone agrees, self appointed ritvik is a joke. So is a rubber stamped ecclesiastical Guru wannabee.

 

But those examples deflected from what I was pointing to. That there WAS a process given by Srila Prabhupada, it included Ritvik reps, and like any other instruction given by an Acharya, if followed according to his guidance, without our speculative interference, it will fulfill its purpose. If followed in the manner he expected, would there be any one self appointing themselves, or sudras voting Vaisyas as Guru? I don't think so.

 

And too too many people just want to throw out the system because we weren't able to follow it. What nonsense. We need to keep fitting ourselves into that round hole our Acharya gave us. It is ourselves who are still square.

 

The implications of the snow job the so called senior disciples of Srila Prabhupada have pulled on the movement and thus the rest of the world is apparently lost on most, or there would be an uproar. And those who apologize for these fools are almost as bad. And those who just don't see how important it is to preserve the vani in toto will gradually wake up to smell the coffee.

 

As for who is a Vaisnava, let's just say that any person who criticizes or even just misconstrues Srila Prabhupada's position, and states it in public, would have been better off keeping quiet til they knew the facts, UNLESS they are open to being corrected, and take it as a blessing. As soon as they resist, and choose to pontificate from their own speculative authority, we are not to futher preach to or instruct that person.

 

But ya sure can expose him to his audience, cramp his style, and maybe convince a few potential victims that if you want to be cheated, it is much nicer to be cheated by Yoga Maya. This is not Vaisnava aparadha by the way. It is transcendental competition at best, and exposing a mleccha fraud in the sad cases.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[Beggar]

Today we are here at ISKCON Los Angeles. As a free member of the Gaudiya Mission I wish to procliam, Ich bin ein ISKCONer. After the great guru Srila Prabhupada left this world no Gaudiya camp has suffered more than ISKCON: through the Zonal Acarya system and the extreme tyranny of the ego maniacs that run the GBC; through the Great Split with Sridhar Maharaja to the Great Rtvik Wars and finally the onslaught of Naryana Maharajism! Yes O ISKCONers you have seen it all. Even to the practicle demise of the zone of the fomer tyrant H****** headquartered in the glorious Vaterland (Fatherland) Now it is time to extablsh the son of the Vaterland and Great Rtvikian, Hamsaduta and save the Yatra of the Vaterland!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Today we are here at ISKCON Los Angeles. As a free member of the Gaudiya Mission I wish to procliam, Ich bin ein ISKCONer. After the great guru Srila Prabhupada left this world no Gaudiya camp has suffered more than ISKCON: through the Zonal Acarya system and the extreme tyranny of the ego maniacs that run the GBC; through the Great Split with Sridhar Maharaja to the Great Rtvik Wars and finally the onslaught of Naryana Maharajism! Yes O ISKCONers you have seen it all. Even to the practicle demise of the zone of the fomer tyrant H****** headquartered in the glorious Vaterland (Fatherland) Now it is time to extablsh the son of the Vaterland and Great Rtvikian, Hamsaduta and save the Yatra of the Vaterland!

Oh what mercy to suffer so at the hands of the "Great Sinister movement already within our society" (Letter to Hansadutta, 9/2/70.)

 

We can only take it as Krsna's mercy, and know he has big plans for the revitalization of the TRUE ISKCON MISSION.

 

I wonder how many liberated Vaikuntha children are waiting in the wings.

 

If my mouth was full, I would have spit it all up with laughter after reading the "Great Rtvikian" line. Hilarious. I beg you Beggar, have mercy.

 

Also, Narayan Maharajism also sounds alot like sahajism. Careful, his disciples are brawlers on the internet. LOL.

 

Funny coincidence how that letter was written to Sriman Hansadutta.

[Shakti-Fan]

Here some real information about Rtvik, Beggar

Hier etwas reale Informationen über Rtvik, Herr Beggar

Distribute this in you beloved fatherland yatra

Verteilen Sie dieses ist Ihres Vaterlandes yatra

 

 

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

 

 

 

Eine Antwort Zum Rtvik System

 

1

Ein Vortrag gegeben in Polansk, Rußland: Juli 19, 2001

1

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

1

Ich biete meine bescheidenen obeisances an den Lotosfüßen meines paramaradhyatama an

gurupadapadma nitya-lila pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava

Gosvami Maharaja und auch zu meinem Siksaguru om visnupada Sri Srimad

Bhaktivedanta Swamimaharaja.

 

In unserer Kategorie gestern besprachen wir die tatsächliche Natur von bhakti. Wir

dort erklärt, daß reines bhakti die Funktion des svarupa-sakti ist (intern

Kraft) von Krsna und folglich verkündet es nie in den materiellen Richtungen,

Wörter oder Verstand. Es gibt einen Prozeß, damit er, jedoch verkündet. Krsna ist

Ozean der Gnade und seines eifrigen Anhängers ist auch ein Ozean der Gnade. Unsere nur Hoffnung ist zu

empfangen Sie ihre Gnade. Dieses ist der einzige Strahl der Hoffnung. Nur durch die causeless Gnade

von Krsna und von seinen eifrigen Anhängern willen Sie das vrtti (charakteristische Funktion) von

svarupa-sakti kommen herein und werden eins mit den Richtungen des materiellen Körpers.

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami hat einen Prozeß für dieses transcendental vrtti von bhakti gegeben

nach der konditionierten der Zunge und anderen Richtungen Seele und der zu kommen ist:

 

adau sraddha tatah sadhu sanga'tha bhajana-kriya,

tato ' nartha nivritti syat tato nistha rucis tatah,

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakam ayam pemnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

"am Anfang muß es Glauben geben. Dann wird man innen interessiert

Verbinden mit reinen eifrigen Anhängern. Danach wird man durch die Angelegenheiten eingeleitet

erarbeiten Sie und führt die regulative Grundregeln unter seinen Aufträgen durch. So ist man

freigegeben von allen unerwünschten Gewohnheiten und wird fest im devotional Service geregelt.

Danach entwickelt man Geschmack und Zubehör. Dieses ist die Weise von

sadhana-bhakti, die Durchführung des devotional Services entsprechend dem regulative

Grundregeln. Stufenweise verstärken Gefühle und schließlich es gibt ein Wecken von

Liebe. Dieses ist die stufenweise Entwicklung der Liebe der Göttlichkeit für den eifrigen Anhänger

interessiert für Krsna Bewußtsein."

(Madhya 23.16)

 

Ohne diksa von einem ehrlichen Guru anzunehmen, kann einer bhakti entwickeln oder nicht?

Einige denken, daß singend, erinnernd, Bücher lesend, und arcana durchführend,

sravanam und kirtanam ist genügend und es gibt keine Notwendigkeit an einem Vermittler. Sie

denken Sie, daß das, eine ' rtvik ' Person anzunehmen für erreichendes reines bhakti genügend ist,

und es gibt keine Notwendigkeit des Annehmens von von diksa von jedem lebenden Selbst-verwirklichten Guru.

 

Die, die denken, "dort ist keine Notwendigkeit, einen Guru als Vermittler anzunehmen weil wir

kann den heiligen Namen singen, können wir Bücher lesen, und wir können arcana und sadhana tun

einfach durch das rtvik System, "seien Sie nicht innerhalb des Gurus-parampara. Sie betrügen

andere. Sie sind wirklich Betrüger; nicht bhaktas. Nirgendwo im sastra ist es

geschrieben, daß ein rtvik bhakti überhaupt geben kann. [ es gibt neunzehn Plätze innen

Bücher Prabhupadas, in denen das Wort ' rtvik ' verwendet wird und in allen Fällen das Wort

bezieht nur sich einen auf Priester, der ein Feueropfer amtiert oder durchführt. Selbst wenn

das verwendete Wort ist ' rtvik acarya, ' es wird definiert noch als Priester durchführendes a

Feueropfer für einen weltlichen Gewinn. ] Dieser kann der Fall nie sein. Die die

befürworten Sie das rtvik System sind misleaders, und ihre Nachfolger werden irregeführt.

nicht in Richtung zum rtvik System gehen.

 

Heutzutage unter anderen, die, die unten von ihrem reinen Leben und von denen fielen, die

links, das der verzichtete Auftrag, der zum Sein sehr lusty passend ist, rtvik sein möchten. Sie wünschen zu

gewinnen Sie die gleiche Position, die sie vor hatten, und der ist, warum er sie schreit,

"Rtvik, rtvik, rtvik!" Wirklich jedoch sind sie alle gefallene Seelen und sie

haben Sie nichts, mit bhakti zu tun. In keinen der sastras ist es dem gesagt worden

dieses rtvik System gibt bhakti.

 

Geben Sie betreffend das gefälschte rtvik System acht. Diese rtviks haben keinen Glauben innen

Krsna, kein Glaube im bhakti und kein Glaube in den scriptures mögen das Vedas,

Upanisads, Srimad Bhagavatam und Caitanya-caritamrta. Sie haben auch keinen Glauben

im Guru-parampara und in dem ist, warum sie nicht bhakti geben können. Sie sollten geben

herauf die Idee, der die rtviks helfen können. Sie können Ihnen nie helfen. Sie haben nie

sogar geholfen, also wie können sie anderen helfen?

 

Dieses Wort ' Funktelegraphie ' ist gekommen vom Wort ' Rg-Veda.' Die, die alles Vedas kennen,

einschließlich das Rg, Sama, Yajur und Atharva Veda, alles Upanishads und alle

das Puranas, sind wirklich rtvik. Ich denke jedoch daß diese modernen rtviks

nicht sogar kennen Sie die ABC des Vedas. Sie sagen, daß in dieser Welt es gibt

keine reinen eifrigen Anhänger und folglich dort sind keine reinen eifrigen Anhänger, zum jedermann einzuleiten.

Diese Idee ist sehr, sehr falsch und es gegen die Grundregeln von bhakti.

rtvik Antragsteller sahen, daß die eifrigen Anhänger in ihrer Gesellschaft unter stritten

selbst und das dort waren kein suddha-bhakta dort. Dann das verwechselnd

die, die stritten, waren im Guru-parampara, die rtviks wurden entgegengesetzt

der tatsächliche Guru-parampara.

 

Passen Sie von diesem rtvik System auf. Ohne einen Selbst-verwirklichten Guru können Sie nicht erzielen

bhakti in den Tausenden Geburten. Dieses ist eine hergestellte Wahrheit. Dieses ist

siddhanta. Sie sollten einen Traurigguru folglich annehmen, ihn dienen und zu versuchen

befolgen Sie seine Anweisungen. Dann können Sie Ihr Krsna Bewußtsein und alle entwickeln

von Ihren anarthas verschwindet. Andernfalls ist es nie für reines möglich

bhakti zum zu kommen, Ihr Herz und Richtungen zu berühren.

 

Ich möchte eine Sache erklären. Ich sage nicht, daß alle rtviks irreführen

andere. Nur die, die sagen, daß es keine Notwendigkeit eines Gurus gibt, so. Was auch immer

ist im Vedas erklärt worden und Upanisads über rtviks ist nur in Beziehung zu

ihre alleinige Funktion in einem Feueropfer und jene Feueropfer sind

durchgeführt, um einen worldly Wunsch nur zu erfüllen. Sie haben nichts, mit zu tun

transcendental Liebe und Neigung für Krsna. [ in der zutreffenden Auffassung von Sri

Guru-tattva wird es angegeben: "nach Bedachtsamkeit nach dem Mahabharata, Ramayana,

und Puranas, wird es offensichtlich, daß rtviks nichts haben, mit dem Obersten zu tun

transcendental Ziel... 'Rtau yajtiti rtviki.' Ein wer Opfer leitet

entsprechend Vedic wird Beschwörungsformeln ein rtvik genannt. Es gibt eine Anordnung für 16

Arten der rtviks, zum der Opfer durchzuführen... das yajman beschäftigt Priester, um durchzuführen

Opfer für ihn und ihn zahlt sie..., das alle diese rtviks rechtschaffen sind, von der Höhe

Buchstabe, erlernt im Vedas und Experte in der Durchführung und in der Überwachung von

Opfer... nach der Beendigung der yajnas, das yajman (Arbeitgeber) zahlt

passende Vergütung zu den rtviks und sendet sie weg. Das yajman und

rtvik haben keine gegenseitigen ewigen Verhältnisse."]

 

Reale rtviks kennen alle sastras, und alle haben Gurus. Ein rtvik kann nicht a sein

rtvik, ohne einen wirklichen Guru anzunehmen. Alle rtviks, wie Vasistha Rsi, sind sehr

erstklassige eifrige Anhänger. Visvamitra, Gautama und sogar Vyasadeva sind rtviks, aber

alle sie haben dem Guru-parampara angenommen. Alle sie glauben, daß es gibt

immer Selbst-verwirklichte Gurus in der Welt. Heutzutage folglich die, die benennen

selbst rtviks sind alle Überbrücker, und wir sollten von ihnen aufpassen.

 

Wenn wir einen Guru annehmen, kann es, daß sein wir so viele anarthas haben, unerwünscht

Gedanken und Gewohnheiten, innerhalb wir. Wir können über krsna-tattva sehr unwissend sein,

Maya-tattva, radha-tattva, bhakti-tattva und alle weiteren tattvas. So viele

anarthas und aparadhas können innerhalb wir dort sein, aber es gibt einen Prozeß, zum zu sein

geben Sie von ihnen frei.

 

Es gibt so viele Gurus: Caityaguru, Diksaguru, Siksaguru, Bhajanaguru und

andere. Warum gehen Sie zu einem gefälschten-rtvik Guru? Wenn unsere Siksagurus Caitanya sind

Mahaprabhu, Nityananda prabhu und Radhika, warum wir, müssen zu diesen gehen

rtviks?

 

 

Geschrieben und durch Sripad Krsna Bhajana dasa Brahmacari redigiert

Korrektur gelesen durch Srimati Premavati devi dasi

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[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

 

A Response To The Rtvik System

 

1

A Lecture Given in Polansk, Russia: July 19, 2001

1

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

1

I offer my humble obeisances at the lotus feet of my paramaradhyatama

gurupadapadma nitya-lila pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava

Gosvami Maharaja, and also to my siksa-guru om visnupada Sri Srimad

Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

 

In our class yesterday we discussed the intrinsic nature of bhakti. We

explained there that pure bhakti is the function of the svarupa-sakti (internal

potency) of Krsna, and therefore it never manifests in the material senses,

words, or mind. There is a process for it to manifest, however. Krsna is an

ocean of mercy and His devotee is also an ocean of mercy. Our only hope is to

receive their mercy. This is the only ray of hope. Only by the causeless mercy

of Krsna and His devotees will the vrtti (characteristic function) of

svarupa-sakti enter and become one with the senses of the material body.

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami has given a process for this transcendental vrtti of bhakti

to come upon the conditioned soul's tongue and other senses, and that is:

 

adau sraddha tatah sadhu sanga'tha bhajana-kriya,

tato 'nartha nivritti syat tato nistha rucis tatah,

athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

sadhakam ayam pemnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

"In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in

associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual

master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is

freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service.

Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of

sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative

principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of

love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee

interested in Krsna consciousness."

(Madhya 23.16)

 

Without accepting diksa from a bona fide guru, can one develop bhakti or not?

Some think that chanting, remembering, reading books, and performing arcana,

sravanam and kirtanam is sufficient and there is no need for a mediator. They

think that accepting a 'rtvik' person is sufficient for attaining pure bhakti,

and there is no need of accepting diksa from any living self-realized guru.

 

Those who think, "There is no need to accept a guru as a mediator because we

can chant the holy name, we can read books, and we can do arcana and sadhana

simply by the rtvik system," are not within the guru-parampara. They deceive

others. They are actually cheaters; not bhaktas. Nowhere in the sastra is it

written that a rtvik can ever give bhakti. [There are nineteen places in

Prabhupada's books where the word 'rtvik' is used, and in all cases the word

only refers to a priest officiating or performing a fire sacrifice. Even when

the word used is 'rtvik acarya,' it is still defined as a priest performing a

fire sacrifice for a secular gain.] This can never be the case. Those who

advocate the rtvik system are misleaders, and their followers are misled. Do

not go towards the rtvik system.

 

Nowadays, among others, those who fell down from their pure life and those who

left the renounced order due to being very lusty want to be rtvik. They want to

gain the same position they had before, and that is why he they are crying,

"Rtvik, rtvik, rtvik!" Actually, however, they are all fallen souls and they

have nothing to do with bhakti. In none of the sastras has it been said that

this rtvik system will give bhakti.

 

Be careful regarding the bogus rtvik system. These rtviks have no faith in

Krsna, no faith in bhakti, and no faith in scriptures like the Vedas,

Upanisads, Srimad Bhagavatam, and Caitanya-caritamrta. They also have no faith

in the guru-parampara, and that is why they cannot give bhakti. You should give

up the idea that the rtviks can help. They can never help you. They have never

even helped themselves, so how can they help others?

 

This word 'rt' has come from the word 'Rg-Veda.' Those who know all Vedas,

including the Rg, Sama, Yajur, and Atharva Veda, all the Upanishads, and all

the Puranas, are actually rtvik. I think, however, that these modern rtviks

don't even know the ABC's of the Vedas. They say that in this world there are

no pure devotees, and therefore there are no pure devotees to initiate anyone.

This idea is very, very wrong and it against the principles of bhakti. The

rtvik proponents saw that the devotees in their society were quarreling amongst

themselves, and that there was no suddha-bhakta there. Then, mistaking that

those who quarreled were in the guru-parampara, the rtviks became opposed to

the actual guru-parampara.

 

Beware of this rtvik system. Without a self-realized guru you cannot achieve

bhakti in thousands of births. This is an established truth. This is

siddhanta. You should therefore accept a sad-guru, serve him, and try to

follow his instructions. Then you can develop your Krsna consciousness and all

of your anarthas will disappear. Otherwise, it will never be possible for pure

bhakti to come and touch your heart and senses.

 

I would like to clarify one thing. I am not saying that all rtviks mislead

others. Only those who say that there is no need of a guru do so. Whatever

has been told in the Vedas and Upanisads about rtviks is only in relation to

their sole function in a fire sacrifice, and those fire sacrifices are

performed only to fulfill a worldly desire. They have nothing to do with

transcendental love and affection for Krsna. [in The True Conception of Sri

Guru-tattva it is stated: "After deliberation upon the Mahabharata, Ramayana,

and Puranas, it becomes obvious that rtviks have nothing to do with the supreme

transcendental goal...'Rtau yajtiti rtviki.' One who conducts sacrifices

according to Vedic mantras is called a rtvik. There is an arrangement of 16

types of rtviks to perform the sacrifices…The yajman employs priests to perform

sacrifices for him and he pays them…All these rtviks are virtuous, of high

character, learned in the Vedas, and expert in the execution and supervision of

sacrifices…After the completion of the yajnas, the yajman (employer) pays the

appropriate remuneration to the rtviks and sends them away. The yajman and the

rtvik have no mutual eternal relationships."]

 

Real rtviks know all sastras, and all of them have gurus. A rtvik cannot be a

rtvik without accepting a real guru. All rtviks, like Vasistha Rsi, are very

high-class devotees. Visvamitra, Gautama, and even Vyasadeva are rtviks, but

they have all accepted the guru-parampara. They all believe that there are

always self-realized gurus in the world. Nowadays, therefore, those who call

themselves rtviks are all cheaters, and we should beware of them.

 

When we accept a guru, it may be that we have so many anarthas, unwanted

thoughts and habits, within us. We may be very ignorant about krsna-tattva,

maya-tattva, radha-tattva, bhakti-tattva, and all other tattvas. So many

anarthas and aparadhas may be there within us, but there is a process to be

free from them.

 

There are so many gurus: caitya-guru, diksa-guru, siksa-guru, bhajana-guru, and

others. Why go to a bogus-rtvik guru? If our siksa-gurus are Caitanya

Mahaprabhu, Nityananda prabhu, and Radhika, why do we need to go to these

rtviks?

 

 

Typed and edited by Sripad Krsna Bhajana dasa Brahmacari

Proofread by Srimati Premavati devi dasi

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[theist]

 

Dear Theist.

 

You state that you see I want readers to think of me as a very strict follower of Bhaktivedanta who "follows every rule and procedure to the T."

 

Bas Prabhu. I expected a better jab then that if you won't just humbly eat some crow.

 

I, like lots of others around these parts, like to paraphrase a bit based on my realization, but I will always give a reference where someone can check out what I say.

 

In that case I was simply making a point. What I spoke was the truth. I have had some glimpses of Bhakti after Vaidhi, so I can relate to what Srila Prabhupada says about this.

 

And if one follows every rule and procedure, I refer to the one's they know about. I don't know all the rules yet. For example all of the offenses to avoid during Arcana for Sri Sri Radha-Krsna Vigraha, and the method of worship.

 

But those I know of and have been shown the context to apply them in, either I follow them or I don't. And the result of following all the rules and regs that Sri Guru makes me aware of, even if they seem mechanical and monotonous at first due to my lack of transcendental awareness, if I follow them, I get Raganuga realization, and the MAIN POINT WHICH EVERYONE SEEMS TO DANCE AROUND IS THAT AS PER SRILA PRABHUPADA AND PAST ACHARYAS, THE RULES AND REGS ARE GENERALLY STRICTLY FOLLOWED, EVEN BY ACHARYAS.

 

Someone who has been around as LONG as you have should understand quite well that it is not a matter there being some generic set of rules and regs and a timeframe they must be followed or there is no effect.

 

Vaidhi Sadhana is an individual thing in many ways, but the common denominator is Surrender to Authority, and for SOME TIME, following STRICTLY any order that pertains to one's self given by said authority.

 

Have I made myself clear? No ulterior motive, I am not promoting myself directly, just want to discuss or argue the FACTS. I do not feel the need to be falsely humble and declare some miserable neophyte position in order to be accepted. My neophyte position is actually more advanced than that. LOL.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

 

Well you have tried to soften your tone so it appears you are the to eat crow pie. Well enough. The earth actual feels good when our bare feet connect us and ground us doesn't it. I've been knocked back down so many times I am afraid to try and jump up again.

 

Other than that you said nothing that is new to anyone on this forum. But the change in tone is refreshing.

[theist]

 

Self-appointed ritviks. That's what he said. He isn't disregarding the wishes of Srila Swami Maharaj from what I understand. Are there any original ritviks left?

 

This is exactly the point. The original ritviks quickly took advantage of the situation for personal gain proclaiming themselves empowered links to Krsna. So after too many years some people see through the fraud and want to re-establish the ritvik system that Srila Prabhupada set up for ISKCON (and not the rest of the parampara). Problem is it is those ritviks that were the cause of the problem in the first place and in so doing screwed everything up beyond repair.

 

The present day ritviks says ISKCON should accept Prabhupada's last instructions and return to the ritvik system that he authorized. That would entail using the same group of personalities that screwed it all up. They were the ones that were authorized afterall. Hardly tenable.

 

So the present ritviks, perceiving the need for ceremony to be absolute, self-appoint from among themselves devotees to conduct the ceremony and take on the role of offical ritviks. Do they have a list of names given by Srila Prabhupada authorizing these people to be Prabhupada's ritviks? No, so they just write their own instead.

 

Then they go on to conduct ritvik ceremonies for new devotees and tell them that now they can have a connection with Srila Prabhupada and I might add under the impression that if it weren't for these inventive ritvik people no one could approach Srila Prabhupada. So in this oblique way they are declaring themselves to be the real links for new devotees to connect to the sampradaya. I say oblique referring to their smokscreen of only linking them to Srila Prabhupada and not as the ecclesastical set from Iskcon who proclaim they are links to Krsna.

 

News flash folks. A link with Prabhupada IS a link to Krsna and not one step removed from it. Ritviks are just a different version of the same ecclesiastical nonsense only.

 

They are all frauds in this way and thus an unnecessary disturbance to human society.

 

They share another thing with their ecclesiastical cousins in Iskcon. They assume they have a license to engage in heavy criticism of other's guru's from the GM or anyone else that doesn't join their little clicks. Such constant mud chucking at others teachers proves to me they have no real connection with Krsna at all.

 

The real violence is to new devotees who think approaching the Lord and His devotee through respectful obediance and prayer is not sufficent without their ritvik touch. You will all suffer for this fraud that is misdirecting seeking souls.

[theist]

 

There are so many gurus: caitya-guru, diksa-guru, siksa-guru, bhajana-guru, and

others. Why go to a bogus-rtvik guru? If our siksa-gurus are Caitanya

Mahaprabhu, Nityananda prabhu, and Radhika, why do we need to go to these

rtviks?

 

Exactly! Now couple this quote from Narayan Maharaja with the one at the end of this post from Srila Prabhupada and the true picture comes into focus.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna Theist

 

I eat crow every day of my life, and that is no exaggeration, I know I am not the only one, nevertheless for many this is impossible to comprehend.

 

I love it, because I know I am purifying. Poison going down, nectar coming out. I usually keep it to myself, but sometimes I show it.

 

I actually assumed you knew better about some things I think I have a good handle on, and that may have been a hasty judgement, but the fact is whether you are aware of it or not, you are missing something, and another assumption I made is that naturally you would be interested in seeing it. But you know the drill obviously, if it is the truth, but we are not yet ready to let go of our old concept, ain't no-one we are going to listen to and HEAR the point.

 

So I will assume my inadequacy in illustrating, and assume your innocence and willingness to explore a reasonable arguement and see if you can see what I think I see.

 

Firstly, for a philosopher, you are very loose using certain terms like Ritvik, and you do alot of overgeneralizing and making of blanket statements. Perhaps that is because you feel more conversational here, and relaxed in a familiar forum atmosphere. For example.

 

"The present day ritviks says ISKCON should accept Prabhupada's last instructions and return to the ritvik system that he authorized." (I agree in principle to this statement, but you use the word "ritviks" to indicate proponents of a theory, when in reality they are not Ritviks, and this can be confusing to any but a seasoned insider. A small thing in itself, but I am trying to illustrate a trend which dilutes the potency of spiritual discussion)

 

You next said.

 

"That would entail using the same group of personalities that screwed it all up."

 

(This is (obviously?) just your opinion. And I can tell you that I do not know a single person out of the hundred or so I know who are Proponents of Srila Prabhupada's Ritvik system who hold the same. Not one. Are you sure you are educated deeply on everything Srila Prabhupada actually had to say on the issue? If so, I doubt someone with your shmarts would still have such an opinion, but maybe you just missed a major angle or 2.)

 

"They were the ones that were authorized afterall. Hardly tenable."

 

(True, but not the whole story. He gave instructions for replacement. And not only that, these were appointments. In any ecclesiastical (worldly or material) office one is appointed to there are strict guidelines. Failure to execute is grounds for dismissal by superiors, and another is appointed to the office. These were not gurus. They were priests with a specific function in the great Yagna of their Acharya.)

 

"So the present ritviks, perceiving the need for ceremony to be absolute, self-appoint from among themselves devotees to conduct the ceremony and take on the role of offical ritviks.

 

(Again a huge blanket statement and highly misinformed and dare I say misleading on a couple levels. For example, for you to say that Present ritviks perceive the need for ceremony to be absolute is just hogwash. It barely makes sense as a statement anyway. The need for ceremony, if it was one that the Acarya instructed us to enact, and gave philisophical reasons for doing so IS ABSOLUTE. You asked me if I was crazy the other day. How can you sanely argue against this?.

 

Then you go on to say that people are self appointing, among themselves. That makes no sense either. One who self-appoints does that alone. He may convince others. This may seem a small point as well, but I am trying to show how you are barely clear in presenting what you really mean, and this points to your incomplete assessment of the situation, and need to speculate.

 

The truth is that there may be a self-appointed ritvik priest or 3 out there.

The truth is that some groups of devotees have appointed one amongst themselves, considering themselves their own GBC, and taking matters into their own hands in some region, just trying to follow SP's order. More power to the latter, and as for the former, they are LIKELY to be deluded.

 

Then you say,

 

"Then they go on to conduct ritvik ceremonies for new devotees and tell them that now they can have a connection with Srila Prabhupada and I might add under the impression that if it weren't for these inventive ritvik people no one could approach Srila Prabhupada."

 

(Again, most of "them" do not wait until after a formal initiation and say "NOW you can have a connection with SP."

 

I am sorry, I just had a realization. You are sick with envy to be making these types of generalizations. Even if you had an experiece with one or 2 people or groups who were under the delusion that it was their inventiveness that keeps people coming to Srila Prabhupada, it is just so unfair to lump everyone else, and worse to attempt to paint Srila Prabhupada's own system as something that just needs to be thrown in the dustbin of history just because we couldn't follow it, hid his instructions from each other for power, etc.

 

I just expected alot more here, I need to meet colleagues who can control their emotions for a while.

 

Does anyone wanna talk about this and untwist this knot from our hearts or not?

 

ys.

 

BD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would entail using the same group of personalities that screwed it all up.

[brajeshwara das]

 

I just expected alot more here, I need to meet colleagues who can control their emotions for a while.

 

 

[mahak]

Not much more for me to say on the issue, but I always wondered what is the goal of rtvik theorists. Validation? I ask, by whom?

 

It is clear that anyone can have a deep and personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada, and the appearance/disappearance pastime has no effect or bearing on this fact. He teaches this always, without validation documents, wills, or other such nonsense. What, this guys name is on a will, is this cause to elevate him to god-like status?

 

What do they want, approval from the society they vilify and harass, acceptance from a foundation that denies them access to their buildings? Why would one need approval, why would one want to be in a building where everyone loathes the very idea of yas?

 

Do they want a public confession, a purge, a public hanging, how about centuries of sectarian warfare?

 

Why does anyone think, rather, where is it taught that guru needs a middleman? I know where it is often taught that one needs guru to get krsna, but it is a cheap and antagonistic teaching of nonsense any one who teach hes one needs a run-of-the-mill, certified middleman to approach guru? How do we certify the rtvik who says he holds the key to our linkage to Srila Prabhupada? Utter rascaldom, worse than the rascals they seek to depose and absolutely need permission from.

 

Rtviks are (they hate when I say this) servants of Tamal. They cite his writings almost exclusively to verify themselves. The words of Satswarup are their authority. Their goal is a headline from the GBC stating that they are correct, that the GBC admits they have cheated the universe. Prabhupada, the sleeping billions, chanting, stuff lie dat, secondary.

 

mahak (sorry, Ill shut up, stick to the dylan songs)

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Ugh, see what I mean.

 

The wink and a nod, oh, talk about controlling emotions, and look how emotional he is.

 

You've got it BACKWARDS.

 

If emotion is not displayed in every moment, we are but a dry husk. When we can admit our very HUMAN neophyte status as mixed devotees, and not go above our pay grade, we become VERY emotional. We get glimpses of transcendental sentiment, and can rest assured our material emotion will transform into that, as Hrsikesha is master of our senses.

 

I said, CONTROL THEM. As in using them with vigor to get to the next layer of truth through lively discussion, which includes the occasional smack on the forehead, and a thank you to the Prabhu who just jostled you out of a speculation binge.

 

NOT control them, as in supress your emotional body until you're vital force is unequally distributed to the mental body, and you thus one practically lives in speculation and then we start to lump groups of other people together as being of the same type and mindset abhorrent to us, and thus self-limit our ability to connect with the Reality of the actual common ground present there, and further collapse into impersonal speculation.

 

Anger is to be used in devotional service. Need I pull up the quote? Is that not proper control of the very emotion that everyone seeks to quash the presence of in their life?

 

Likewise the emotion of embarassment (loss of false pride or hubris which leads to humility) occurs when someone points out what we refuse to acknowledge over and over. Since we hate this emotion, we do our best to reject the accurate feedback we are given, thus seeming to control that emotion. Just to have it creep up again.

 

No in this case proper control is to, upon becoming embarrassed (through correction) feel it and let it sink in, own the emotion, let it become you and ride its course. Poison going down. Nectar around the corner.

 

What I seem to get all to often in internet forums is just rejection of feedback. And by bypassing the emotion of being caught and having to "eat crow", a person's consciousness goes directly to the speculative part of the mind, which operates exclusively when we are being dishonest with ourselves. So the evasion tactics begin.

 

So those who are not willing to be instructed should not be preached to anymore once that is discovered.

 

So I wander around, looking for those who might be able to point out a thing or 2 to me, and who might be looking for the same.

 

I and others I know who have a particular faith and desire to keep Srila Prabhupada as our main Siksa guru, whose Vani we can turn to for reconciliation of all discrepencies or contradictions realize he left 50% of the service to his movement left for us, and getting consensus about how to go about that comprehensively is a goal we seek by discussion and revelation, not speculation.

 

Yes, comprehensively. No sound bytes of "Chant and Be Happy". Let us not play liberated acharya to one another. Anyone interested in this type of deeper and naked discussion?

 

I tried to ask this bold and omnipresent "Krsna" a question about a position he holds, but I noticed he avoids getting into any situation where he might have to challenge himself on a cherished belief. Been there, done that, it is not advancement, just denial.

 

I am sure plenty of people hate what I am saying and feel uncomfortable with it, but that is not actually me offending you unless you tell me it happened like that for you, and you are not interested in exploring it anymore. I pray I have not already done this with anyone, and beg your forgiveness if I have been offensive.

 

ys

 

Bhakta Devarsi

[brajeshwara das]

What was that all about? Where did that come from, what does it all mean? My little was just at the tone you take with people, hard to attract bees with stool, you should try honey or you will only attract flies. I'm not surprised you aren't finding the association you seek with your temperment. I'll hold off saying any more to you since you likely don't have the ears to hear it. Good luck with that.

[Guest guest]

that we have to go back and again revisit these first defunked ritvics in order to continue this system given by Prabhupada.

 

The point of fall of ISKCON came way before Prabhupada's samadhi. It is just that the vise closed shut after Prabhupada left. You the congregation were very willing to follow Tamal and Co all the time that lead up to the vise shuting, why cry now? Prabhupada named those bum/junkies because you followed them. He had to name the then leaders or the understanding of whom the ritvic should be would not be understood. You in essence chose Tamal, not Prabhuapda.

 

Why would anyone now reinstate those monkeys. But ritvic is an instruction for social arrangement of the formality of initiation. Not giving of bhakta-lata-bija, that is now and has always been in the hands of Srila Prabhupada. Only idiots claim ritvic is anything more than a secretary for management of a formality.

 

 

 

Theist said;

 

This is exactly the point. The original ritviks quickly took advantage of the situation for personal gain proclaiming themselves empowered links to Krsna. So after too many years some people see through the fraud and want to re-establish the ritvik system that Srila Prabhupada set up for ISKCON (and not the rest of the parampara). Problem is it is those ritviks that were the cause of the problem in the first place and in so doing screwed everything up beyond repair.

 

The present day ritviks says ISKCON should accept Prabhupada's last instructions and return to the ritvik system that he authorized. That would entail using the same group of personalities that screwed it all up. They were the ones that were authorized afterall. Hardly tenable.

 

CB-R;

This is from a person of 10,000+ posts??? What kind of logic is this? Straw man self defeating. And the next thing below....

 

 

Theist said;

 

Then they go on to conduct ritvik ceremonies for new devotees and tell them that now they can have a connection with Srila Prabhupada and I might add under the impression that if it weren't for these inventive ritvik people no one could approach Srila Prabhupada. So in this oblique way they are declaring themselves to be the real links for new devotees to connect to the sampradaya. I say oblique referring to their smokscreen of only linking them to Srila Prabhupada and not as the ecclesastical set from Iskcon who proclaim they are links to Krsna.

 

CB-R;

Who is saying that ritvic is middle man? YOU, not me. I'm a follower of Prabhupada's that accepts ritvic instruction and I do not say that ritvic has anything other than sercritarial help to do with the relationship between Prabhupada as Guru and the new aspirent. I was also an origanal IRG man, I never said different then either. Ritvic's position is secritariate and Prabhupada is giver of bija, always has been in ISKCON, always will be. Remember a so-called ritvic has said like this, me!

 

 

Theist said;

 

They share another thing with their ecclesiastical cousins in Iskcon. They assume they have a license to engage in heavy criticism of other's guru's from the GM or anyone else that doesn't join their little clicks. Such constant mud chucking at others teachers proves to me they have no real connection with Krsna at all.

 

CB-R;

Intersestingly enought Srila B. R. Sridara Maharaja has also said to use the ritvic method of continuing initiations and He is a most senior person to other of that Math. And it is working beautifully there. Mud chucking happens in all places and times by all groups and many individuals. It, in itself, should not be taken as any more than chidish play from kids, not men. A ritvic child chucks mud and you condem the order of Guru?

 

Just because most everyone and ritvics misrepresents what a ritvic is, is no good reason to quit tring. If a nice group of devotees are regular and sincere then why you would step on their enthusiasm? To add one more post to your collection? Better to get right in with like minded devotees and give equal support to all the orders of Guru. In person! Get off line and live prabhu. And have a little crow with your prasadam.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Guest guest]

 

Ugh, see what I mean.

 

The wink and a nod, oh, talk about controlling emotions, and look how emotional he is.

 

You've got it BACKWARDS.

 

If emotion is not displayed in every moment, we are but a dry husk. When we can admit our very HUMAN neophyte status as mixed devotees, and not go above our pay grade, we become VERY emotional. We get glimpses of transcendental sentiment, and can rest assured our material emotion will transform into that, as Hrsikesha is master of our senses.

 

I said, CONTROL THEM. As in using them with vigor to get to the next layer of truth through lively discussion, which includes the occasional smack on the forehead, and a thank you to the Prabhu who just jostled you out of a speculation binge.

 

NOT control them, as in supress your emotional body until you're vital force is unequally distributed to the mental body, and you thus one practically lives in speculation and then we start to lump groups of other people together as being of the same type and mindset abhorrent to us, and thus self-limit our ability to connect with the Reality of the actual common ground present there, and further collapse into impersonal speculation.

 

Anger is to be used in devotional service. Need I pull up the quote? Is that not proper control of the very emotion that everyone seeks to quash the presence of in their life?

 

Likewise the emotion of embarassment (loss of false pride or hubris which leads to humility) occurs when someone points out what we refuse to acknowledge over and over. Since we hate this emotion, we do our best to reject the accurate feedback we are given, thus seeming to control that emotion. Just to have it creep up again.

 

No in this case proper control is to, upon becoming embarrassed (through correction) feel it and let it sink in, own the emotion, let it become you and ride its course. Poison going down. Nectar around the corner.

 

What I seem to get all to often in internet forums is just rejection of feedback. And by bypassing the emotion of being caught and having to "eat crow", a person's consciousness goes directly to the speculative part of the mind, which operates exclusively when we are being dishonest with ourselves. So the evasion tactics begin.

 

So those who are not willing to be instructed should not be preached to anymore once that is discovered.

 

So I wander around, looking for those who might be able to point out a thing or 2 to me, and who might be looking for the same.

 

I and others I know who have a particular faith and desire to keep Srila Prabhupada as our main Siksa guru, whose Vani we can turn to for reconciliation of all discrepencies or contradictions realize he left 50% of the service to his movement left for us, and getting consensus about how to go about that comprehensively is a goal we seek by discussion and revelation, not speculation.

 

Yes, comprehensively. No sound bytes of "Chant and Be Happy". Let us not play liberated acharya to one another. Anyone interested in this type of deeper and naked discussion?

 

I tried to ask this bold and omnipresent "Krsna" a question about a position he holds, but I noticed he avoids getting into any situation where he might have to challenge himself on a cherished belief. Been there, done that, it is not advancement, just denial.

 

I am sure plenty of people hate what I am saying and feel uncomfortable with it, but that is not actually me offending you unless you tell me it happened like that for you, and you are not interested in exploring it anymore. I pray I have not already done this with anyone, and beg your forgiveness if I have been offensive.

 

ys

 

Bhakta Devarsi

 

 

 

Personally, I'm also passionate and I like your tone Bk Devarsi, but I don't know who this post is refering to. Are you directly addressing someone or is your frustration just in general. Thanks for the invite.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja