Response to Krsna regarding initiation

[Guest guest]

"CB-R;

Who is saying that ritvic is middle man? YOU, not me. I'm a follower of Prabhupada's that accepts ritvic instruction and I do not say that ritvic has anything other than sercritarial help to do with the relationship between Prabhupada as Guru and the new aspirent. I was also an origanal IRG man, I never said different then either. Ritvic's position is secritariate and Prabhupada is giver of bija, always has been in ISKCON, always will be. Remember a so-called ritvic has said like this, me!"

 

 

So why do you think someone needs "secretarial" help for their connection with Prabhupada, might be the real question. Are you saying that reading Prabupada's books would not be enough to develop spiritual understanding?

It could only be achieved if some one had a ritvik to preform an intiation ceromony for him?

[theist]

 

"CB-R;

Who is saying that ritvic is middle man? YOU, not me. I'm a follower of Prabhupada's that accepts ritvic instruction and I do not say that ritvic has anything other than sercritarial help to do with the relationship between Prabhupada as Guru and the new aspirent. I was also an origanal IRG man, I never said different then either. Ritvic's position is secritariate and Prabhupada is giver of bija, always has been in ISKCON, always will be. Remember a so-called ritvic has said like this, me!"

 

 

So why do you think someone needs "secretarial" help for their connection with Prabhupada, might be the real question. Are you saying that reading Prabupada's books would not be enough to develop spiritual understanding?

It could only be achieved if some one had a ritvik to preform an intiation ceromony for him?

 

It really is this simple folks.

[brajeshwara das]

Who will trust in the ritvk system in ISKCON, is it fixable? That is really the main thing I think. I don't pretend to know the answer, but there needs to be some concensus or a peaceful, congenial exodus of all that can't accept that system.

 

Also I sincerely believe there needs to be another Guru to lead the ISKCON organization so the parampara continues on. Either that or ISKCON as it is known maybe should change to fit the name: International Society for Krishna Consciousness as an umbrella, big tent of all Gaudiya Maths in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada, to whom Srila Swami Maharaj was utterly devoted. Then you can have a ritvk system, Guru disciples, other Maths all working in some kind of joint way to serve Sriman Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement.

[Guest guest]

 

"CB-R;

Who is saying that ritvic is middle man? YOU, not me. I'm a follower of Prabhupada's that accepts ritvic instruction and I do not say that ritvic has anything other than sercritarial help to do with the relationship between Prabhupada as Guru and the new aspirent. I was also an origanal IRG man, I never said different then either. Ritvic's position is secritariate and Prabhupada is giver of bija, always has been in ISKCON, always will be. Remember a so-called ritvic has said like this, me!"

 

 

So why do you think someone needs "secretarial" help for their connection with Prabhupada, might be the real question. Are you saying that reading Prabupada's books would not be enough to develop spiritual understanding?

It could only be achieved if some one had a ritvik to preform an intiation ceromony for him?

 

 

 

Again straw man, I never said anyone needs secritarial help with his connection to Prabhupada. Bija is personal, no in betweens aloud. Nor have I said Prabhupada needs ritvic to connect to anyone.

 

Yes. books are the power.

 

ISKCON is a community that Srila Prabhupada was developing and in that environment we will have management. Initiation formalities will need some regulator oversite. Ritvic is just management, not deliverer of bija. This is not to say that ANYONE IS NEEDED BETWEEN YOU AND GURU in the matter of transference of bija. That is not said! But you may need siksa to function on an every day bases. This is different and again is personal, individual. Not by force.

 

Books are definitely a vehicle of unsurpassed potency. ORIGANAL books though, as changes happen the potency is diminished.

 

Did not TP's give recommondations before Prabhupada left? Why should that stop now? Was not then the new name entered in Prabhupada's Book of Devotee's? Why stop now? Is the TP then/now in between Prabhupada and the new or old devotee? NO!! I would never say like that. Never said by ME. If you have heard someone else then take that up with them. And yes it is an idiotic understanding. NO MIDDLE MAN nessisary.

 

I have also had this pulled on me from the time of entering ISKCON in 74. Always telling me I had to surrender to some phony leader. Phony in that he was junk on a stick! I never surrended to their ISKCON. I am a Prabhupada DVD man from day one, no one between me and guru. To me ISKCON is the totality of Prabhupada's instructions. It can be rebuilt, but do not be stupid and go to the same old boys school looking for leadership to right this ship. It ain't there. And they aren't qualified. Nor is the dynamic of Srila Prabhupada behind them.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

Who will trust in the ritvk system in ISKCON, is it fixable? That is really the main thing I think. I don't pretend to know the answer, but there needs to be some concensus or a peaceful, congenial exodus of all that can't accept that system.

 

Also I sincerely believe there needs to be another Guru to lead the ISKCON organization so the parampara continues on. Either that or ISKCON as it is known maybe should change to fit the name: International Society for Krishna Consciousness as an umbrella, big tent of all Gaudiya Maths in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada, to whom Srila Swami Maharaj was utterly devoted. Then you can have a ritvk system, Guru disciples, other Maths all working in some kind of joint way to serve Sriman Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement.

 

I don't mean to say ISKCON should revive the rtvik system. Just if they do, all who feel otherwise should form thier own society maybe. Better the family lives in two houses than quarrel in one.

[Guest guest]

 

Who will trust in the ritvk system in ISKCON, is it fixable? That is really the main thing I think. I don't pretend to know the answer, but there needs to be some concensus or a peaceful, congenial exodus of all that can't accept that system.

 

Also I sincerely believe there needs to be another Guru to lead the ISKCON organization so the parampara continues on. Either that or ISKCON as it is known maybe should change to fit the name: International Society for Krishna Consciousness as an umbrella, big tent of all Gaudiya Maths in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada, to whom Srila Swami Maharaj was utterly devoted. Then you can have a ritvk system, Guru disciples, other Maths all working in some kind of joint way to serve Sriman Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement.

 

 

No need of anything extraneous outside of guidence already given by Prabhupada to continue everything ISKCON. Like I tell my adult sons, "just listen and follow the father and then see the out come. If you do differently than told, then the out come well inevitably be different. Then you should not say guidence was faulty, and you must accept that fault is yours."

 

Come back together like we did at one time and do as Guru have directed.

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

 

No need of anything extraneous outside of guidence already given by Prabhupada to continue everything ISKCON. Like I tell my adult sons, "just listen and follow the father and then see the out come. If you do differently than told, then the out come well inevitably be different. Then you should not say guidence was faulty, and you must accept that fault is yours."

 

Come back together like we did at one time and do as Guru have directed.

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

 

But before Srila Swami Maharaj there was Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati, etc. There is a disciplic line. Are you saying it should end with Srila Swami Maharaj? All now should be disciples only, no Guru beyond Srila Swami Maharaj? What of the other Maths, are we not to join in brotherhood with ISKCON in Sankirtan?

[Guest guest]

 

But before Srila Swami Maharaj there was Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati, etc. There is a disciplic line. Are you saying it should end with Srila Swami Maharaj? All now should be disciples only, no Guru beyond Srila Swami Maharaj? What of the other Maths, are we not to join in brotherhood with ISKCON in Sankirtan?

 

 

You are from SCSMath? Has the parampara in that Math stopped. I think not. Govinda Maharaja is representative on behalf of B. R. Sridara Maharaja. The disciples are still getting initiations from B. R. Sridara Maharaja. There is still an active priciple of bija deliverence functioning there. Why not ISKCON the same? The idea that bodies are the vehicle is obsurd. This is a transendental thing not based on bodily pressents. Nothing has stopped. The parampara still flows like the Gunga though those places that guru is pressent. And that ain't ISKCON.

 

If some disciple has a need to give initiations, then let him do so outside of ISKCON. And we would work in harmony, why not?

[brajeshwara das]

 

You are from SCSMath? Has the parampara in that Math stopped. I think not. Govinda Maharaja is representative on behalf of B. R. Sridara Maharaja. The disciples are still getting initiations from B. R. Sridara Maharaja. There is still an active priciple of bija deliverence functioning there. Why not ISKCON the same? The idea that bodies are the vehicle is obsurd. This is a transendental thing not based on bodily pressents. Nothing has stopped. The parampara still flows like the Gunga though those places that guru is pressent. And that ain't ISKCON.

 

If some disciple has a need to give initiations, then let him do so outside of ISKCON. And we would work in harmony, why not?

Yes, but isn't Srila Swami Maharaj getting the bija from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada? And He from His Guru and so on, a chain? I am not saying it is based on bodies, but the acharyas have shown this as the method: we approach the spiritual master, who is in service to His Guru, and receive initiation. Most likely would not understand that you can approach the spiritual master through a book and receive initiation in your heart. This seems a harder prospect to me. Isn't Krishna so merciful that He is sending His representatives constantly? Isn't this why Guru is coming to us in the bodily form? I received the bija from Srila Govinda Maharaj who received from Srila Sridhar Maharaj who received from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada and so on. Please explain why we need Srila Prabhupada then if we can just keep going back further to a source prior to Him? I don't understand this reasoning. If no Guru is present in bodily form then we go to the books only, but shouldn't we search for Guru everywhere, in books, in our heart, in the servants of the servants we meet?

 

I do not blame anyone for not accepting initiation from someone they do not trust. I would blame them if they did. But shouldn't we have faith that He is there waiting for Us to approach? Not only in book form but in bodily form?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

It really is this simple folks.

 

Said theist in response to..

 

"So why do you think someone needs "secretarial" help for their connection with Prabhupada, might be the real question. Are you saying that reading Prabupada's books would not be enough to develop spiritual understanding?

It could only be achieved if some one had a ritvik to preform an intiation ceromony for him?"

 

So...

 

For the uninitiated (figuratively)....

 

All of what SEEMS to be ritual or ceremony which was displayed and established by Srila Prabhupada for "repetition" in the future, are all in ACTUALITY eternal and blissful transcendental events.

 

This so called ritual is presented to us as such, very very very similar to what a mundane ritual or ceremony is like.

 

That is how we are first reached out to. Through what appears to our eyes as a statue, and a mechanical ritual, and some formal vows before a fire.

 

By the Lord's grace, it looks like something we are familiar with in our conditioned state, and we treat it like that for a while, when ON THE OTHER SIDE, REALITY IS TREATING US, and one day we discover...

 

The ritual is no longer something without spontaneity. There never was a ritual except due to our polluted consciousness at the time.

 

Yet, mystically, it still appears a ritual to those not initiated into this secret.

 

It is that simple folks.

 

Guru says do it, and you think you can convince his sincere disciples why they should not? What a waste of breath.

 

Why not allow those brahminically qualified to perform formal initiation ceremonies on behalf of Srila Prabhupada? Why not allow for the function that formal public acceptance ceremony has upon the psyche of the aspiring disciple. Srila Prabhupada authorized it, his voice is on the mantra tape, he was willing to accept Ritvik initiated disciples who he externally never met, during his appearance, and claimed willingness to do the same after he was "no longer with us".

 

So for the millions of Jivas who in the next 10000 years who feel some attraction to the shelter of HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada in particular, he not only left comprehensive Siksa in his books, but also he offers them formal Diksa initiation according to the "ritual" process he himself utilized!

 

6 months of certain qualifications = Harinama or preliminary initiation

6 more months of additional = 2nd (Diksa gayatri or Brahmin) initiation

 

His ritviks were overseeing this while he was present. He never recinded it, and made specific and detailed arrangements for its adherence, Henceforward.

 

A ritvik is no middle man. A true ritvik priest is a faithful and brahminically inclined servant of his spiritual master, always answering the call with, "By your command." His command was not to pose himself as the indisposable connecting link to Diksa. Diksa occurs anyway, but the process is enhanced for some conditioned souls when the process includes the formal public vows and agni hotra. So we all do it if available.

 

He gets in the way just long enough to do his mixed devotional thing as a brahmin, the aspiring disciple (already initiated at heart) gets whatever benefit the formal public vows offer according to his guna and karma, and the ritvik may remind them to read Srila Prabhupada's books for guidance, and then mad kirtan ensues, and then people go home and about their business.

 

No Ritvik Guru looking over one's shoulder 24/7.

No Perverts eyeing up your young son.

 

That is what Srila Prabhupada wanted. Just do good and be good. Don't make anything up, do what I told you, and it will BECOME spontaneous and you'll look good doin it to.

 

Sorry for being brusque but it breaks my heart that something which is so simple and obvious to me is so infrequently noticed by others. But I was warned about how many people ACTUALLY desire to know intimately. And I will defend against any public misconceptions of my Guru's vani and vapuh especially when presented amongst aspiring disicples of my Guru, and especially when stated with such casual authority.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Yes, but isn't Srila Swami Maharaj getting the bija from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada? And He from His Guru and so on, a chain? I am not saying it is based on bodies, but the acharyas have shown this as the method: we approach the spiritual master, who is in service to His Guru, and receive initiation. Most likely would not understand that you can approach the spiritual master through a book and receive initiation in your heart. This seems a harder prospect to me. Isn't Krishna so merciful that He is sending His representatives constantly? Isn't this why Guru is coming to us in the bodily form? I received the bija from Srila Govinda Maharaj who received from Srila Sridhar Maharaj who received from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada and so on. Please explain why we need Srila Prabhupada then if we can just keep going back further to a source prior to Him? I don't understand this reasoning. If no Guru is present in bodily form then we go to the books only, but shouldn't we search for Guru everywhere, in books, in our heart, in the servants of the servants we meet?

 

I do not blame anyone for not accepting initiation from someone they do not trust. I would blame them if they did. But shouldn't we have faith that He is there waiting for Us to approach? Not only in book form but in bodily form?

 

Braj Prabhu, please explain how you think it was that Srila Prabhupada 'transfered the bija" to the disciples who never once saw or spoke with his vapu form between 1976 an 77 when this was occuring.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not informed of anything at all about most of them. Never met them, did not even know what spiritual name his secretaries chose for them.

 

Did Srila Prabhupada leave them high and dry? No Bhakti Lata Bija?

[Guest guest]

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja asks: "Did not TP's give recommondations before Prabhupada left? Why should that stop now?"

 

mahaksadasa: Yes, TPs recommended new disciples, to Prabhupada, who responded actively to such recommendations. Why has Prabhupadas will been taken away, the opportunity to reciprocate? If one reads chapter 2 of Science of Self Realization, Srila Prabhupada discusses the NECESSITY for the Guru to examine the disciple to see if such a person is fit. This examination has been arrogantly usurped by the rtvik proponant, think Prabhupada is bound to accept his recommendation. This is not only ludicrous, it is just as presumptious as those who were ap[pointed to business positions yet thought they were ordained saints.

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja asks: "Was not then the new name entered in Prabhupada's Book of Devotee's? Why stop now?"

 

mahaksadasa: Siunce this question affirms that you delve into the July 9 document, you must carefully read that document wherein it clearly states that the names of new disciples are sent to HIM to be entered into that book. This is an important difference that is never discussed by the rtvik crowd, the important connection that Srila Prabhupada makes to a new disciple. He would read the names, and acknowledge that this person was a reciprocal disciple, also concurring with his very important discussion of Guru in the Science of Self Realization. Some rtviks say thaT WE SEND THE NAMES TO THE MURTI, i SAY "WHY SEND". Does the USPS deliver to murtis? No, this is cheap. If Srila Prabhupada approves this, then in July 9, he would not have been quoted as wanting the names of disciples sent to him, rather, he would have clearly stated that the names be put in the book.

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja asks: "Is the TP then/now in between Prabhupada and the new or old devotee? NO!! I would never say like that. Never said by ME. If you have heard someone else then take that up with them. And yes it is an idiotic understanding. NO MIDDLE MAN nessisary."

 

mahaksadasa: No middleman, I hear you. Tell that to the world of those who insist that an intermediary rtvik swystem must be employed before one can be considered a disciple of Srtila Prabhupada. The only difference between a GBC guru and a rtvik proponant is that at least the GBC guru accepts the responsibility (whether on not he takes this fact seriously, who knows, it depends on the guru). The rtvik takes this and dumps their responsibility for the new disciple onto Srila Prabhupada (or so they think). The TP, then, did not have this problem, because direct consultation without mental speculation and imagined communication tinged with false ego did not take place. Now, the "prabhupada said" folks run rampant with their extra-shastric letters, discussions and totally unrelated business matters and pretend this is even more pertenent that the published books and lecture transcripts that constitutew the actula teachings of Srila Prabhupada the actual divya jnana that constitutes an actual guru-disciple relationship.

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja closes with this statement: "I have also had this pulled on me from the time of entering ISKCON in 74. Always telling me I had to surrender to some phony leader. Phony in that he was junk on a stick! I never surrended to their ISKCON. I am a Prabhupada DVD man from day one, no one between me and guru. To me ISKCON is the totality of Prabhupada's instructions. It can be rebuilt, but do not be stupid and go to the same old boys school looking for leadership to right this ship. It ain't there. And they aren't qualified. Nor is the dynamic of Srila Prabhupada behind them."

 

mahaksadasa: I agree with your conclusion, if one wants Prabhupada, look for a bonafide disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Such a DISCIPLE DOES NOT DEVIATE FROM HIS GURU'S VANI. Such a person delivers Prabhupada intact, and because he does not deviate, he is also guru. Now this person may want to initiate you in his Gurus name, which he may do on the strength of his relationship with Srila Prabhupada, but he doeswnt have to be validated by ISKCON, approved by the GBC, or follow the imagined rules of the rtvik-vadi which are contained outside of Srila Prabhupadas authorized teachings..

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[brajeshwara das]

So 10,000 years must pass before there is another chain in the parampara, formal Guru disciple of Srila Swami Maharaj? Is that is what is being said?

 

Anyway, I agree with the value of the rtvik concept, but whitewash looks just like milk but is not milk. If I were looking for initiation how would I know the rtvik actually was qualified? 10,000 years is a long time.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Braj Prabhu, please explain how you think it was that Srila Prabhupada 'transfered the bija" to the disciples who never once saw or spoke with his vapu form between 1976 an 77 when this was occuring.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not informed of anything at all about most of them. Never met them, did not even know what spiritual name his secretaries chose for them.

 

Did Srila Prabhupada leave them high and dry? No Bhakti Lata Bija?

 

 

Yes, TPs recommended new disciples, to Prabhupada, who responded actively to such recommendations. Why has Prabhupadas will been taken away, the opportunity to reciprocate? If one reads chapter 2 of Science of Self Realization, Srila Prabhupada discusses the NECESSITY for the Guru to examine the disciple to see if such a person is fit. This examination has been arrogantly usurped by the rtvik proponant, think Prabhupada is bound to accept his recommendation. This is not only ludicrous, it is just as presumptious as those who were appointed to business positions yet thought they were ordained saints.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Originally Posted by mahaksadasa

Yes, TPs recommended new disciples, to Prabhupada, who responded actively to such recommendations

 

Sorry, this is pure bunk, and Mahak should know that

 

Srila Prabhupada's active role was to delegate the entire process, including the receiving of TP recommendations, and the responding or acceptance of those aspirants recommended, to a select few, and this was way before the May 28th 1977 appt. tape.

 

It is Srila Prabhupada's authorization which allows any process he initiates to be considered plenary in its presentation, and fully executable, with a submissive service attitude.

 

To bad so many people are seriously jaded, and so defensive that they cannot allow this possibility into their realm. But wounds heal, and Srila Prabhupada's system will be there for anyone to take up at any time, for those so attracted.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Originally Posted by mahaksadasa

Yes, TPs recommended new disciples, to Prabhupada, who responded actively to such recommendations

 

Sorry, this is pure bunk, and Mahak should know that,

 

Srila Prabhupada's active role was to delegate the entire process, including the receiving of TP recommendations, and the responding or acceptance of those aspirants recommended, to a select few, and this was way before the May 28th 1977 appt. tape.

 

It is Srila Prabhupada's authorization which allows any process he initiates to be considered plenary in its presentation, and fully executable, with a submissive service attitude.

 

To bad so many people are seriously jaded, and so defensive that they cannot allow this possibility into their realm. But wounds heal, and Srila Prabhupada's system will be there for anyone to take up at any time, for those so attracted.

 

Hare Krsna

In addition, to this quote by Mahak,

 

 

mahaksadasa: I agree with your conclusion, if one wants Prabhupada, look for a bonafide disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Such a DISCIPLE DOES NOT DEVIATE FROM HIS GURU'S VANI. Such a person delivers Prabhupada intact, and because he does not deviate, he is also guru. Now this person may want to initiate you in his Gurus name, which he may do on the strength of his relationship with Srila Prabhupada, but he doeswnt have to be validated by ISKCON, approved by the GBC, or follow the imagined rules of the rtvik-vadi which are contained outside of Srila Prabhupadas authorized teachings..

 

A neophyte disciple is still a disciple, and can be considered a pure devotee if they do not deviate.

 

Yet such a one is not to give Diksa initiation, unless they fall from their position as neophyte by breaking their own Guru's injunction

 

Nectar of Devotion, Chap 5. by Srila Prabhupada.

 

"A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikäri as a spiritual master.” " NOD Ch. 5

 

So such a person, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, can deliver NOTHING intact while still a neophyte or even madhyama unless done strictly according to the system authorized. The only "relationship" such a person has with Srila Prabhupada, ESPECIALLY THE NEOPHYTE, is yes or no order following, and any strength they get is mercy. They are not in a siddha deha yet, they got NOTHIN.

 

As for an uttama disciple of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada mentioned being regular guru by his order.

 

Somehow I doubt an uttama disciple of Srila Prabhupada is going to waltz into an already established institution, Iskcon, and start changing the same rules that worked just fine to get him into Raganuga.

 

No, if there was such necessity for a new system, that person would have plenty of potency to make a new and separate arrangement, outside of Iskcon, not needing to LEECH LIKE A PARASITE off of Srila Prabhupada's and thus Sri Krsna's intellectual properties, physical properties, and try to snake some neophytes for laborers.

 

Puh-lease!

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

In addition, to this quote by Mahak,

 

 

A neophyte disciple is still a disciple, and can be considered a pure devotee if they do not deviate.

 

Yet such a one is not to give Diksa initiation, unless they fall from their position as neophyte by breaking their own Guru's injunction

 

Nectar of Devotion, Chap 5. by Srila Prabhupada.

 

"A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikäri as a spiritual master.” " NOD Ch. 5

 

So such a person, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, can deliver NOTHING intact while still a neophyte or even madhyama unless done strictly according to the system authorized. The only "relationship" such a person has with Srila Prabhupada, ESPECIALLY THE NEOPHYTE, is yes or no order following, and any strength they get is mercy. They are not in a siddha deha yet, they got NOTHIN.

 

As for an uttama disciple of Srila Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada mentioned being regular guru by his order.

 

Somehow I doubt an uttama disciple of Srila Prabhupada is going to waltz into an already established institution, Iskcon, and start changing the same rules that worked just fine to get him into Raganuga.

 

No, if there was such necessity for a new system, that person would have plenty of potency to make a new and separate arrangement, outside of Iskcon, not needing to LEECH LIKE A PARASITE off of Srila Prabhupada's and thus Sri Krsna's intellectual properties, physical properties, and try to snake some neophytes for laborers.

 

Puh-lease!

 

Hare Krsna

 

And here is another one from Mahak.

 

 

The rtvik takes this and dumps their responsibility for the new disciple onto Srila Prabhupada (or so they think). The TP, then, did not have this problem, because direct consultation without mental speculation and imagined communication tinged with false ego did not take place.

 

It seems so easy to find some ritvik proponent who might think this way. But why paint them all with the same brush. Shame shame shame.

 

And again, THEN (76-77) the TP often went to a middleman with his recommendations. I have never heard a case where the secretaries performing the ritvik function at that time (Pradumnya Prabhu, and Tamala Krsna) ever turned down a recommendation. The only reason they may have had to do so was a personal grudge against the TP or aspirant (by some strange coincidence they knew the aspirant).

 

But it could have happened, and probably did now that I think on it. I mean hell these guys locked Srila Prabhupada in a room for 3 days with starvation rations in LA. Why be afraid of turning down a candidate for personal reasons? What is the "old man" going to find out? Well maybe a few of them still had some healthy fear of SP. But most did not.

 

Point is, Srila Prabhupada heaped alot of trust on us. From the beginning.

 

The nice thing about Ritvik is that a person does not have to be an Uttama adhikari to accept disciples on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. All they need to do is follow instructions, and repeat, the same criteria for giving good Siksa when one is a surrendered disciple. One may not be an advanced devotee, but pure enough to give good Siksa from time to time repeating instructions for other aspirants relevant to their situation.

 

Is that person to be considered a bona-fide Siksa Guru and Spiritual Master? Not perpetually, until they show the symptoms of unalloyed devotion over time which lets one know their advanced position.

 

One with discrimination never points to a neophyte who knows a few parts of the beginning science of Krsna, and tells others "That is a Siksa Guru".

 

Similarly, the Ritvik, by following the exact process given by the Acharya, gets temporary empowerment to get the job done.

 

Personally, I believe the Ritvik should not be chosen from among neophytes.

 

For as Kula-Pavana would point out if he were here, we might have a chance to learn from the hell people put Srila Prabhupada through, and might have a chance to put more qualified people into certain positions, and by all means we should if possible.

 

ys.

 

BD

[Guest guest]

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja asks: "Did not TP's give recommondations before Prabhupada left? Why should that stop now?"

 

mahaksadasa: Yes, TPs recommended new disciples, to Prabhupada, who responded actively to such recommendations. Why has Prabhupadas will been taken away, the opportunity to reciprocate? If one reads chapter 2 of Science of Self Realization, Srila Prabhupada discusses the NECESSITY for the Guru to examine the disciple to see if such a person is fit. This examination has been arrogantly usurped by the rtvik proponant, think Prabhupada is bound to accept his recommendation. This is not only ludicrous, it is just as presumptious as those who were ap[pointed to business positions yet thought they were ordained saints.

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja asks: "Was not then the new name entered in Prabhupada's Book of Devotee's? Why stop now?"

 

mahaksadasa: Siunce this question affirms that you delve into the July 9 document, you must carefully read that document wherein it clearly states that the names of new disciples are sent to HIM to be entered into that book. This is an important difference that is never discussed by the rtvik crowd, the important connection that Srila Prabhupada makes to a new disciple. He would read the names, and acknowledge that this person was a reciprocal disciple, also concurring with his very important discussion of Guru in the Science of Self Realization. Some rtviks say thaT WE SEND THE NAMES TO THE MURTI, i SAY "WHY SEND". Does the USPS deliver to murtis? No, this is cheap. If Srila Prabhupada approves this, then in July 9, he would not have been quoted as wanting the names of disciples sent to him, rather, he would have clearly stated that the names be put in the book.

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja asks: "Is the TP then/now in between Prabhupada and the new or old devotee? NO!! I would never say like that. Never said by ME. If you have heard someone else then take that up with them. And yes it is an idiotic understanding. NO MIDDLE MAN nessisary."

 

mahaksadasa: No middleman, I hear you. Tell that to the world of those who insist that an intermediary rtvik swystem must be employed before one can be considered a disciple of Srtila Prabhupada. The only difference between a GBC guru and a rtvik proponant is that at least the GBC guru accepts the responsibility (whether on not he takes this fact seriously, who knows, it depends on the guru). The rtvik takes this and dumps their responsibility for the new disciple onto Srila Prabhupada (or so they think). The TP, then, did not have this problem, because direct consultation without mental speculation and imagined communication tinged with false ego did not take place. Now, the "prabhupada said" folks run rampant with their extra-shastric letters, discussions and totally unrelated business matters and pretend this is even more pertenent that the published books and lecture transcripts that constitutew the actula teachings of Srila Prabhupada the actual divya jnana that constitutes an actual guru-disciple relationship.

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja closes with this statement: "I have also had this pulled on me from the time of entering ISKCON in 74. Always telling me I had to surrender to some phony leader. Phony in that he was junk on a stick! I never surrended to their ISKCON. I am a Prabhupada DVD man from day one, no one between me and guru. To me ISKCON is the totality of Prabhupada's instructions. It can be rebuilt, but do not be stupid and go to the same old boys school looking for leadership to right this ship. It ain't there. And they aren't qualified. Nor is the dynamic of Srila Prabhupada behind them."

 

mahaksadasa: I agree with your conclusion, if one wants Prabhupada, look for a bonafide disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Such a DISCIPLE DOES NOT DEVIATE FROM HIS GURU'S VANI. Such a person delivers Prabhupada intact, and because he does not deviate, he is also guru. Now this person may want to initiate you in his Gurus name, which he may do on the strength of his relationship with Srila Prabhupada, but he doeswnt have to be validated by ISKCON, approved by the GBC, or follow the imagined rules of the rtvik-vadi which are contained outside of Srila Prabhupadas authorized teachings..

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

Hare Krsna Mahaksa das

 

1st point, No will has been removed, Srila Prabhupada now trust proxys to personally do on His behalf, personal interaction is still there. Just as when He was vapu pressent. Examining was then also done by TP as it can be now. I did not meet Srila Prabhupada in vapu form to get initiation. I got it through a book, this vani form. Guru agrees automaticly if YOU do, it is up to us to agree with Srila Prabhupada. I concider first initiation to be through Prabhupada's BG, not anyone else. I did not meet personally vapu only vani. Then I looked for the movement of my Guru.

 

2nd point, Yes ,let us look again.

 

"The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book."

 

It says nothing of further action needed on Srila Prabhupadas side save and exept 'to be included' I do not have a problem with this. To be included means the secretarial act of writing a name down. Formality of acceptance power was given to a repressentative, proxy. This entering of a name in the Book of Disciples is just formality. Acceptance was done by proxy, nothing in this letter states that Srila Prabhupada will then give final approval only that it should then be entered in His book.

 

I was initiated with bija before any contact with any of you people. Yes, first initiation was just me and a book, in my heart. If no heart, then all the formalities in the world will not have effect.

 

Also if you sent to the representative of a person then you are satisfing this sending need.

 

3rd point, No point, we agree. Mostly.

 

4th point, Again, mostly we agree. But I say we need no 'person' to give us Prabhupada he is in His 'books' also. This I say from personal expirience.

 

Mahak said;

Now this person may want to initiate you in his Gurus name, which he may do on the strength of his relationship with Srila Prabhupada, but he doeswnt have to be validated by ISKCON, approved by the GBC,

 

CB-R

So what is different that you say here, than what the general ritvic says? You say the 'person' may give initiation on the strength of relationship to guru. But only if the guru says 'I authorize you to give on my behalf'. You can't independantly say/give on guru's behalf. First guru has to have said 'ritvic yes'

 

Mahak said next;

or follow the imagined rules of the rtvik-vadi which are contained outside of Srila Prabhupadas authorized teachings..

 

 

CB-R

Look closer, ritvic explanation is there in SB. And as much as you hate trusting Godbrothers to be witness does not change the fact that other non-discript fly on the wall bhaktas were there and heard ritvic conversations. That these hundreds of hours are not availible do to conspiricy acts is no deturent to me. I have talked to eye witnesses and I accept them as truthful.

 

How ritvic is being used is not contrary because guru makes the rules for His institution. Just like we accept that Srila Bhaktisiddhant Maharaja stood in front of a mirror and recieved sannyasa. But go to Radha-Kund and see if those Babjis accept Him as any kind of devotee. I've been with them, they do not. I left.

 

Srila Prabhupada is free to give us Krsna as he sees fit. ISKCON, it is generally understood, will last for the duration of Golden age, yes? So Prabhupada has given rules and regulations to bind us together as a force to push on book distribution, congregational chanting and taking prasadam. How can we do this if we are dissected into 5,000 parts?

 

An institution was formed by Srila Prabhupada, it is His to serve Krsna with as He wants. What ever is outside is someone elses buisiness.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Guest guest]

Haribol, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja, PAMHO & AGTSP. Ill respond to your points in kind, thanks for your sanity in this discussion, rare indeed.

 

CBR: "1st point, No will has been removed, Srila Prabhupada now trust proxys to personally do on His behalf, personal interaction is still there. Just as when He was vapu pressent. Examining was then also done by TP as it can be now. I did not meet Srila Prabhupada in vapu form to get initiation. I got it through a book, this vani form. Guru agrees automaticly if YOU do, it is up to us to agree with Srila Prabhupada. I concider first initiation to be through Prabhupada's BG, not anyone else. I did not meet personally vapu only vani. Then I looked for the movement of my Guru."

 

mahaksadasa: This denotes sanity. The real guru in all of this is Chaitaguru, who is everyone's bonafide spiritual master, who revives Krsna to one whose sincerity is activating the guru tattwa. "By the grace of God, one gets guru" means that chaitaguru is the first respondant to one who has had enough of forgetfulness of their real constitutional position. The one who led you to read Srila Prabhupadas Bhagavad Gita is Lord Nityananda, who is the one showing you Srila Prabhupada.

 

CBR: "2nd point, Yes ,let us look again."The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book."

It says nothing of further action needed on Srila Prabhupadas side save and exept 'to be included' I do not have a problem with this. To be included means the secretarial act of writing a name down. Formality of acceptance power was given to a repressentative, proxy. This entering of a name in the Book of Disciples is just formality. Acceptance was done by proxy, nothing in this letter states that Srila Prabhupada will then give final approval only that it should then be entered in His book."

 

mahaksadasa: This is what I mean. Why is there so much unclarity, when in fact, Srila Prabhupada is always crystal clear? Why is there all this confusing maze-like process when Srila Prabhupada is the most straightforward person to ever trod the planet? Some think that Srila Prabhupada is automatic acceptor, but this is bogus, and is not concurrant with his teachings at all. I find this (not you) very offensive, and smacks of the same imprisoning attitude of those rascals who denied Srila Prabhupada his human rights. The only thing done by proxy was an introduction done by the TP to Srila Prabhupada about a possible new disciple. No TP ever accepted a disciple on Srila Prabhupadas behalf, and even the bogus July 9 tamalagram doesnt give them such authority. If TPs had any authority, then and now, why even issue a July 9 letter, which is basically tamals demand that all TPs surrender to him and his ten buds.

 

cbr: "I was initiated with bija before any contact with any of you people. Yes, first initiation was just me and a book, in my heart. If no heart, then all the formalities in the world will not have effect."

 

nmahaksadasa: I had a guru, and when he surrendered to Srila Prabhupada and advised his disciples to do the same, I followed.

 

cbr: "Also if you sent to the representative of a person then you are satisfing this sending need."

 

mahaksadasa: No you are not, because this representative is supposedly given the order (via July 9) to send the info to Srila Prabhupada. Either you accept this memo or you dont. Neither matters to me, because the July ninth memo is not addressed to me, not sent or written by any friend of mine, has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with anything about my life at all.

 

cbr: "3rd point, No point, we agree. Mostly. 4th point, Again, mostly we agree. But I say we need no 'person' to give us Prabhupada he is in His 'books' also. This I say from personal expirience.

 

mahaksadasa: From my POV, it is sure helpful to associate with advanced devotees. Srila Prabhupada has taught us to read his books, but we also need guidance at all times. I was fortunate to have very nice devotees to associate with, but I also knew some that maybe were externally nice, but I was fortunate to see their disgusting backside, and I was fortunate to reject them without any remorse (all I needed was a fast car and good friends from the LA Street gang, Crips eight treys to face the gundas with dandas down when they tried to get me for my grave offenses to the naistika brahmacari with the disco queen teenager girlfriend.).

 

cbr: "Mahak said; Now this person may want to initiate you in his Gurus name, which he may do on the strength of his relationship with Srila Prabhupada, but he doeswnt have to be validated by ISKCON, approved by the GBC,

 

So what is different that you say here, than what the general ritvic says? You say the 'person' may give initiation on the strength of relationship to guru. But only if the guru says 'I authorize you to give on my behalf'. You can't independantly say/give on guru's behalf. First guru has to have said 'ritvic yes'

 

mahaksadasa: So this means that the rtvik MUST go thru the eleven he said rtvik yes to, or any of those who were approved by those same people.

 

cbr: "Mahak said next; or follow the imagined rules of the rtvik-vadi which are contained outside of Srila Prabhupadas authorized teachings..

 

Look closer, ritvic explanation is there in SB. And as much as you hate trusting Godbrothers to be witness does not change the fact that other non-discript fly on the wall bhaktas were there and heard ritvic conversations. That these hundreds of hours are not availible do to conspiricy acts is no deturent to me. I have talked to eye witnesses and I accept them as truthful."

 

mahaksadasa: I have heard them, too. Trust them, it may bve difficult for me. Because they were flies on the wall during this time of great denial of Srila Prabhupadas human rights while the rest of us were not given his actual order to come be with him, to protect him, during his last months, because such a request was denied. So who were these witnesses? They were tamals boys, they were sycopants of satswarupa, they were hillbilly gurus yesmen, they were hamsas boys who carried guns in their bead bags. Where were their revelations of "rtvik yes" in 1978? Not there, because they were vying for position with the zonals. It is only when they knew they were not going to rise to eccliastic heights under these demagogues when they decided on their rebellion. My experiances with all these "truth speakers" is that they hate devotees as bad as their GBC enemies. They say they are only concerned with ISKCON, so why are they so grossly offensive whenever NM makes a point, why do they hate Sridhar and Puri, even though their guru says that the war is over. Why do they hate gurus who are outside ISKCON, not interfering or affiliated with GBC. They dont speak any truth, they just make trouble for devotees who dont acceopt their views 100%.

 

What I say is nothing linked to those who propose any SYSTEM of initiation. I dont use a discussion among a bunch of thieves and dacoit kali cela who drag Srila Prabhupada into a room in chains to badger him into agreeing with their plans.

 

cbr:" How ritvic is being used is not contrary because guru makes the rules for His institution. Just like we accept that Srila Bhaktisiddhant Maharaja stood in front of a mirror and recieved sannyasa. But go to Radha-Kund and see if those Babjis accept Him as any kind of devotee. I've been with them, they do not. I left. Srila Prabhupada is free to give us Krsna as he sees fit. ISKCON, it is generally understood, will last for the duration of Golden age, yes? So Prabhupada has given rules and regulations to bind us together as a force to push on book distribution, congregational chanting and taking prasadam. How can we do this if we are dissected into 5,000 parts? An institution was formed by Srila Prabhupada, it is His to serve Krsna with as He wants. What ever is outside is someone elses buisiness."

 

mahaksadasa: An institution was formed by Bhaktisiddhanta too, but Prabhupada did not use that facility because it was not really copesetic to his mission. If you want to read a really revealing statement by Srila Prabhupada toward the end of his appearance, get ahold of an October 5, 1977 statement, where he says, basically, that everything they want he has given them. All the power of attorney, his will, his discussion of what to do after he dies, hias signature on their letter to the TPs, everything THEY want. What about what Srila Prabhupada wants. We need to find what Srila Prabhupada wants, then the bhij is planted, then the divyajnana is imparted. All this foundational nonsense, temple residency, rtvik nonsense, this is all the stuff wanted and demanded by the Kali Cela who held him hostage and refused to give us his order to come and rescue him. What he wants from us is not all buggahed up with chaos, quarrel and confusion, the true teachings of the kali cela. Kali cela teaches confusion and quarrel, Srila Prabhupada teaches simple and sublime, straightforward truth, chant hare krsna and your life will be sublime, not quarrelsome, confused, offensive, inimical to the vaisnava communities of the world.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[brajeshwara das]

I'm not sure I can stand to hear any more of how badly Srila Swami Maharaj was treated by his 'disciples' But continue anyhow, it just makes me feel so furtunate to not have been caught up in all of that. So some of the same people are leading ISKCON now? Dear Lord.

[Beggar]

Peter Burwash, the famous tennis pro, had personal association with Srila Prabhupada on several occaisions although he could never bring himself to take hari nama initiation. He told several people that he had been given hari nama initiation in a dream by Prabhupada. Sometime in the early eighties someone asked Srila Sridhar Maharaja about this. He replied something like, "it may be" and quoted BG 9.22, yoga-ksemam vahamy aham. I don't remember how he translated it but the BBT online translation of part of the verse is, "to them I carry what they lack, and I preserve what they have". Sometimes we delude ourselves into thinking we know everything about Krsna, but of course we don't.

'

[url="http://www.bhagavadgitaasitis.com/a/aham"]

[url="http://www.bhagavadgitaasitis.com/a/aham"]

[theist]

 

I'm not sure I can stand to hear any more of how badly Srila Swami Maharaj was treated by his 'disciples' But continue anyhow, it just makes me feel so furtunate to not have been caught up in all of that. So some of the same people are leading ISKCON now? Dear Lord.

 

The violence continued(s) in the form of changing his books and turning his *transcendental movement into an ecclesastical farce.

 

 

*meaning Iskcon. His transcendental movement still exists.

[Shakti-Fan]

Subjective Evolution of Consciousness

 

 

The Play of the Sweet Absolute

 

 

Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Dev-Goswami Maharaj

Chapter Seven

The Super Subject

Question: How can we apply proper discrimination and judgement in

our search for knowledge of the infinite?

Srila Srdhar Maharaj: Discrimination may take place in different

planes, but it must have a connection with the higher plane.

Judgement and discrimination should be in the right plane. Judgement

and discrimination come from our side, but our progress depends on

the favor of the higher side - it must have that connection - so

surrender is required. Then the Lord will approach us and take us up

to that higher plane. Somehow, we have to persuade the highest

authority to favor us. We must invite the higher authority to accept us.

It does not depend so much on our own ability, but on our submission

and surrender, our hankering for mercy - not our positive capacity but

our negative character, our surrender. As a subject, I cannot make the

infinite the object of my discrimination; he is always the super-

subject. I cannot make God the object of my discrimination. He is

super-subjective. My position, my attitude, must invite the higher

authority to come down to my level and help me, favor me. Real

discrimination or knowledge should take us to self-surrender.

Surrender is necessary to attract the attention of the Lord. Everything depends on his sweet will. He is an autocrat: his sweet will is

everything. To attract his sweet will, to increase our negative side, our

tendency for surrender, to attract his favor - this will be our real

problem if we wish to progress in spiritual life. And to attract the

Lord's attention, all our qualifications must be of a negative character -

we shall require surrender, submission, humility. And then we can

press our position by praying: "O my Lord, I'm in the worst need;

without your grace I can't stand. I am helpless. I cannot endure

without your favor." That sort of hankering, earnestness, and necessity

for his mercy will help us. In other words, we are to improve our

negative character, and in that way we shall attract the positive -

Krsna.

Then we shall develop proper discrimination, for at that time our

subjective character will be to act only as his agent. He will inspire

from within in whatever we do. Our discrimination will be utilized in

carrying out his order. It will not be possible for us to have any

separate interest, any original discrimination. I will carry out his order,

or the order of the higher officer of the Supreme Lord. I may use my

discrimination about how to make the lower arrangements in carrying

out that order. But towards the Lord, who is higher than me, my

attitude will always be one of submission, surrender, obedience,

allegiance, unconditional slavery. The slave mentality will help us in

entering that plane. If we truly feel ourselves to be low and in want,

then the supply of mercy will come from the higher plane. This should

always be the tenor of our thought: high and low. Subjective and

objective. And Krsna is not subject to any rule; he is an autocrat.

These are the data we must keep in our mind always. Everything

moves according to his sweet will; our problem, then, is how to draw his attention. This will be possible only by increasing our negative

tendency, by proving to him, in a bona fide way, that I'm the most

needy. At that time, we shall develop proper discrimination and

knowledge; that is, our discrimination will be utilized in carrying out

his order.

 

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I'm not sure I can stand to hear any more of how badly Srila Swami Maharaj was treated by his 'disciples' But continue anyhow, it just makes me feel so furtunate to not have been caught up in all of that. So some of the same people are leading ISKCON now? Dear Lord.

 

This was Maha Maya's plan, in part.

 

She sends the men to Srila Prabhupada, he does what he can with them seeing them as sent by Krishna.

 

She tempts them, and according to their free will, they abuse their power, abuse the Acharya, and put a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

 

So much so that anything that can be possibly associated with those turncoats is now taboo, unpalatable to contemplate, and off the table.

 

Including most of his brilliant management strategy.

 

And those who were jealous at the time of those who were in the "inner circle", and secretly astonished and annoyed that Srila Prabhupada would choose them over me, are now stepping up to bat with their own speculative theories and misinterpretations of Srila Prabhupada's management idea for Iskcon.

 

He gave us the laws for 10,000 years.

 

And now some semi-charmed, psuedo intellectual, ex-hippies are compelled to ignore the black and white of the rules of managing a transcendental institution and unconsciously (I hope) begin canvassing for their own twiggy little neophyte branch of the Tree of Bhakti.

 

And Maha Maya looks over her creation, and says, it is bad. Very bad. I did well. Very well. Now to seal the deal and convince the rest that Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers, who were not chosen for their absolute surrender in order to convert anyone and everyone in foreign cultures, are now the go-to guys, and bury Srila Prabhupada's Siksa, including that pesky Ritvik Daivi Varnashrama institution he left.

 

And Maha Maya wins the day. The year. The decade. And it is shaping up to be the century now.

 

To bad we don't TOGETHER follow the EXACT system of devotional service AND management left by Srila Prabhupada, because surely what he gave would help us beat Maya, if followed without speculation.

 

Or would it? Maybe he wasn't so potent after all.... I think I have an idea...

[Shakti-Fan]

 

He gave us the laws for 10,000 years.

 

 

EDITORIAL January 10, 1999 VNN2820

The Golden Age Of The Sankirtan Movement

<hr> BY SWAMI B.G. NARASINGHA

EDITORIAL, Jan 10 (VNN) — The Golden Age of the Sankirtan Movement:

Is Srila Prabhupada the Acharya for the Golden Age?

In a manuscript entitled Srila Prabhupada, The Founder Acharya of the Golden Age, Part One, presumably written by an ISKCON member, it is consistently emphasized that "ISKCON is the Golden Age predicted by Sri Caitanya, and Srila Prabhupada is the Acharya for the Golden Age." Furthermore, the oft-quoted phrase, "For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," is repeated. Are we to regard such statements as authoritative for all Vaishnavas, or could the author have been carried away by his own sentiments?

Indeed, the author was carried away by sentimentality. In the manuscript of reference, many statements are out of context, or rather statements are made with the bias of ami-guru jagatguru: my Guru is Jagatguru. Such statements have no universal application, however well intended their author.

In any event, the phrase attributed to Srila Prabhupada, "For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," is actually not verifiable. He might and he might not have said it. Obviously, some devotees think that he did, otherwise they would not quote it. But it is not mentioned in any of the main writings, books, lectures, letters, room conversations, morning walks and so forth which have been recorded and preserved in the archives. Therefore, we do not accept such hearsay as an absolute or authoritative statement. (There are 484 references by Srila Prabhupada in VedaBase to "my books." None of them includes the famous quote about the 10,000 years, even remotely. In the Lilamrta we find the quote. Satsvarupa Maharaja writes: "One day in the car he had said, 'My books will be the lawbooks for human society for the next ten thousand years.'" It is not mentioned where Srila Prabhupada said this, or when, or who was present.)

Nevertheless, let us consider the possible truth of the statement, for surely it has its validity in transcendental arrangements. What were Srila Prabhupada's books in the first place? Were his books his own creation, or were they something else? Srila Prabhupada's books were for the most part translations of, and commentary on the already existing books written by such empowered personalities as Srila Vyasadeva, Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, and Srila Rupa Goswami.

Srila Prabhupada did not take credit for his own writing, but rather took pains repeatedly to proclaim that he was following in the footsteps of the previous Acharyas. In fact, the Bhaktivedanta purports are so much in line with the purports of previous Acharyas that, in many cases, one could say they are translations of those of previous Acharyas. Indeed they are, but one would never know it unless one took the trouble to examine the texts of the previous Acharyas. (In a recorded room conversation, Feb 26, 1973 Srila Prabhupäda says: "They are not my books. I am simply translating.")

The intimate relation between the Bhaktivedanta purports and those of the previous Acharyas is the true glory of Srila Prabhupada. He did not add anything or take anything away; he simply repeated the words of previous Acharyas. Therefore, how could the previous Acharyas be any less important? We should remember that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that anyone who does not recognize his 'Swami' is a prostitute. Mahaprabhu made this statement as an admonishment to Vallabha Acharya, who failed to recognize the importance of Sridhar Swami, the original commentator on Srimad Bhagavatam.

Srila Vyasadeva was directly empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the mature product of the samadhi of Vyasadeva was Srimad Bhagavatam. We find also that Srila Rupa Goswami was directly empowered by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to distribute bhakti-rasa throughout the world, and he was specifically instructed to write books on the science of Krishna consciousness. Actually, it is Srila Rupa Goswami who heads our sampradaya.

sri-caitanya-mano-bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale

svayam rupah kada mahyam dadati sva-padantikam

"When will Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Sri Caitanyadeva, give me shelter under his lotus feet." (Bhaktivinode Thakura)

Srila Rupa Goswami established the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in this world, and thus it is he (Sri Rupa) who is the actual Acharya for the period of the Golden Age. Hence, all members of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtan movement are called 'rupanugas', the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami.

mahaprabhu sri-caitanya, radha krsna nahe anya

rupanuga-janera-jivana

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Who is the undivided form of Sri Sri Radha Krsna, is very dear to the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami."

The test of a genuine disciple lies in how well he has understood the purpose of the spiritual master. It is surprising, even alarming, that some devotees ignore that the goal of being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is to become a rupanuga. This is confirmed in the Bhaktivedanta purport to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila, 19.132) as follows:

"That was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's opinion, and he specifically told his disciples to write books. He actually preferred to publish books rather than establish temples. Temple construction is meant for the general populace and neophyte devotees, but the business of advanced and empowered devotees is to write books, publish them and distribute them widely. According to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, distributing literature is like playing on a great mrdanga. Consequently we always request members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to publish as many books as possible and distribute them widely throughout the world. By thus following in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami, one can become a 'rupanuga' devotee."

The Six Goswamis (headed by Sri Rupa) scrutinizingly studied all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Srinivasa Acharya establishes this conclusion, as follows:

nana-sastra-vicaranaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau

lokanam hita-karinau tri-bhuvane manyau saranyakarau

radha-krsna-padaravinda-bhajananandena mattalikau

vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau

"I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Six Goswamis, who are very expert in scrutinizingly studying all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Thus they are honored all over the three worlds, and they are worth taking shelter of because they are absorbed in the mood of the gopis and are engaged in the transcendental loving service of Radha and Krsna." (Sad Goswami-astakam, text 2)

Therefore it must be concluded that the books of the Six Goswamis are indeed intended to 'guide the world.' Srila Prabhupada's translations and commentary on them must also be of the same quality - 'my books will guide the world.'

A similar position is held by Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, in that he was empowered to write the Caitanya-caritamrta.

more ajna karila sabe karuna kariya

tan-sabara bole likhi nirlajja ha-iya

"By their mercy, all these devotees ordered me to write of the last pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Because of their order only, although I am shameless, I have attempted to write this Caitanya-caritamrta." (CC. Adi-lila, 8.72)

In the Caitanya-caritamrta we also find mention that Vridnavana dasa Thakur was the Vyasadeva of Caitanya-lila, and therefore no intelligent devotee could possibly dismiss the writings of Vrindavana dasa Thakura as nonessential. Actually, without being empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, no one can write transcendental literature. And the fact is that the Gaudiya-sampradaya has thousands of such literatures, written by hundreds of empowered personalities. It is the super excellent characteristic of the Gaudiya-sampradaya that it has the greatest collection of transcendental literatures the world has ever known. All such literatures are meant to 'guide the world.'

kali-kalera dharma krsna-nama-sankirtan

krsna-sakti vina nahe tara pravartana

"The fundamental religious system in the age of Kali is chanting of the Holy Name of Krsna. Unless empowered by Krsna, one cannot propagate the sankirtan movement." (CC. Antya-lila, 7.11)

It is a most glaring defect in certain sections of contemporary Vaishnava society that some devotees want to replace Srila Rupa Goswami, who was appointed as the Acharya of our sampradaya by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, with Srila Prabhupada. Discounting the contribution of all Acharyas and missions since the time of Sri Caitanya, some persons declare that ISKCON marks the beginning of the Golden Age. It is a foolish proposal and Srila Prabhupada would certainly not sanction such inappropriate conclusions.

It is a fact that during Srila Prabhupada's lifetime, ISKCON (as a united preaching effort) did perform wonderful service to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtan movement. This is the eternal credit of all those souls who participated. Yet pride seems to have been the greatest enemy of those souls who once served the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, and who once received the blessings of Mahaprabhu on their humble heads. It is truly unfortunate that, in the two decades since the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, some proud and arrogant disciples have brought about more disgrace to Srila Prabhupada, to ISKCON, and to the Gaudiya-sampradaya than fell upon the whole of Vaishnavism during the past 5,000 years. It is sad, it is unfortunate, but it is true. And all in the name of ISKCON and its Founder Acharya! .. If the stubborn insist that ISKCON is the Golden Age then the dismal conclusion would hence be that the present day marks the end of Kali Yuga and we should be expecting the Kalki Avatar in the year 2000 (Y2K)!

There is indeed a Golden Age within the age of Kali Yuga, but that age began with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the advent of His sankirtan movement, and not with the forming of any institution in modern times. There is no monopoly on the sankirtan movement by any institution; the parampara itself retains all rights. Whosoever takes up the sankirtan movement will prosper spiritually, and whosoever deviates from the principles of pure devotion will reap a harvest of mixed results.

We find in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana the mention of a ten thousand year period in which Vaishnavism and the cult of Sri Caitanya will flourish in the world. Afterwards, darkness and ignorance will consume the world.

In the Brahma-vaivarta Purana the Supreme Personality of Godhead, while speaking to Mother Ganges, describes the dawn of the Golden Age by first mentioning those who worship the Lord by mantra. This reference to those who chant mantras as the central focus of their worship indicates Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhvaite Brahmins.

man-mantropasakasparsad

bhasmibhutani tatksanat

bhavisyamti darsanacca

snanadeva hi jahnavi

"Thereafter by the sight and touch of those who worship me by my mantra, all those sins will be burnt." (Text 51)

Next, the Brahma-vaivarta Purana directly indicates the advent of the Golden Age inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu with the performance of hari-nama-sankirtan (the chanting holy name) and the recitation of Srimad Bhagavatam.

harernamani yatraiva

puranani bhavamti hi

tatra gatva savadhanam

abhih sarddham ca srosyasi

"There will be chanting of the name of Hari and reading of the [bhagavata] Purana. Reaching such a place, attentively hear." (Text 52)

It is thoroughly indicated that even the most sinful persons will become Vaishnavas by the chanting of the holy names, and due to the presence of such purified Vaishnavas the whole planet will become a place of pilgrimage.

tathapi vaisnava loke

papani papinamapi

prthivyam yani tirthani

punyanyapi ca jahnavi

"O Ganges, the whole planet will become a pilgrimage site by the presence of Vaisnavas, even though they had been sinful." (Text 55)

Such a blissful condition is then predicted to last ten thousand years.

kaler dasa-sahasrani

madbhaktah samti bhu-tale

ekavarna bhavisyamti

madbhaktesu gatesu ca

"For 10,000 years of Kali-yuga, such devotees of mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of my devotees there will only be one varna [outcaste]." (Text 59)

madbhaktasunya prthivi

kaligrasta bhavisyati

etasminnamtare tatra

krsnadehadvinirgatah

"Devoid of My devotees, the earth will be shackled by Kali. Saying this, Krsna departed." (Text 60)

Srila Prabhupada mentioned this same concept of the ten thousand year-period of the Golden Age in his Bhagavatam commentary (Bhaktivedanta purports) canto 8, chapter 5, text 23, as follows:

"When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared He ushered in the era for this sankirtan movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtan movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of Kali-yuga will be deliveredŠ ...the ten thousand years of the sankirtan movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement."

The fact that there will be devotees of the sankirtan movement spread throughout the planet is also an indication that there must be someone, or several personalities, who will spread the Holy Name around the world.

prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama

sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama

"In as many towns and villages as there are on the surface of the earth, My Holy Names will be preached." (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Caitanya-bhagavat, Vrindavana das Thakura)

It is a fact that Srila Prabhupada was the one who conducted a preaching mission beyond the borders of India, which would marvel the Vaishnava world. Many of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers remarked, 'We could not imagine how the prophecy of Mahaprabhu was to be fulfilled.' The Godbrothers were simply wonder-struck that 'Swami Maharaja' (Srila Prabhupada) had done it! Srila Sridhar Maharaja commented, "It is wonderful that Krsna always acts through someone. Swami Maharaja has done a miracle! We are happy, we are glad, and we are proud."

Locana Dasa Thakura mentions, in the beginning of his book Sri Caitanya Mangala, that in the future there will appear a sena-pati (a great general), who would cause an inundation of Krsna consciousness throughout the world. In the opinion of many devotees, that personality was Srila Prabhupada, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Yet it is doubtful that Srila Prabhupada would agree with them, as he always considered himself a humble servant of his Guru Maharaja, Srila Saraswati Thakura. Indeed Srila Prabhupada was a humble servant of his Guru, and this is simply one among his many qualifications. It is why he was chosen and empowered by Guru and Krsna to perform the service to the sankirtan movement that he accomplished.

However, greatly learned scholars and pure devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who know the purport of the scriptures, have understood the 'sena-pati' in Caitanya-mangala to have been Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Between 1918 and 1936, he caused a wave of Krsna consciousness to swell up in Bengal that would indeed inundate the whole world. The sound of the kirtan raised by Saraswati Thakura conquered all ten directions, silencing the atheist non-believers, the impersonalist speculators, and the imitationist sahajiya sections of pseudo-Vaisnavas.

Saraswati Thakura orchestrated a great preaching movement for eighteen years, awarding the triple staff of renunciation to his disciples and then sending these sannyasis to preach throughout India, and eventually to western countries. Before passing away from this world, Saraswati Thakura commented that he desired to spend at least ten years preaching Krsna consciousness in the western countries. This Saraswati Thakura was unable to do before his disappearance in 1936. However, through his intimate disciple, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Saraswati Thakura's last desire for preaching Krsna consciousness in the west was fulfilled. Hence, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada continued the work of the sena-pati foretold by Locana Dasa Thakura. And Saraswati Thakura's numerous disciples and grand disciples carry on the same work up to the present day.

Some persons might object that we do not concede that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the sena-pati spoken of in Caitanya-mangala. Such an objection shows an utter lack of understanding of the guru-parampara and of the position of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura in contemporary society and in aprakata-lila, the eternal pastimes of the Supreme Lord.

Saraswati Thakura appeared in this world by the prayer of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, who implored the Supreme Lord (Jagannatha) to send His personal representative to fulfill the prophecy of Mahaprabhu that the Holy Name would be spread in every town and village. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura prayed for the Supreme Lord to send such a personality from among His eternal associates. In response, Saraswati Thakura appeared as the fourth son of Bhaktivinode.

Devotees often overlook this ecstatic piece of transcendental knowledge (mentioned above) when trying to establish the greatness of Srila Prabhupada. We should remember that the greatness of Srila Prabhupada does not reside in our concocted ideas. Certainly, it does not reside in putting Srila Prabhupada in the position of Srila Rupa Goswami (the sampradaya-acharya), or in the position of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura (the sena-pati who appeared in this world as a direct response to the prayer of Bhaktivinode Thakura). Such concocted attempts at glorifying Srila Prabhupada fail miserably, due to being tainted with the kanistha mentality of ami guru jagatguru, my Guru is Jagatguru.

The actual greatness of Srila Prabhupada is beyond challenge. Yet he reserves the right of disclosure: the right to reveal his eternal identity to those who are free from envy. What Srila Prabhupada did in this world is written in eternal history. Yet to separate him from the very root of his greatness in an attempt to glorify him, denotes a lack of real transcendental vision of His Divine Grace. Such kanistha disciples are all too often found to be in the category of guru-bhogi (one who tries to enjoy the property and mission of the Guru), rather than in the position of guru-sevaka (one who serves the vision of the Guru).

The greatness of Srila Prabhupada is not understood or expressed by the methods of concoction or sentimental exaggeration. The transcendental position of His Divine Grace can only be realized when one attempts to see how Srila Prabhupada was accepted (connected) in the parampara of great masters, and what qualifications earned him that illustrious position. The bona fide disciple earns this right of divine vision of the Guru through a lifetime of service and dedication at the lotus feet of the spiritual master, and not by any amount of mundane speculation. There is no other way to the truth than this.

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