Response to Krsna regarding initiation

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Mahaksa das

 

It late, I woke up and can't go back to sleep. So if incoherency is present, please forgive me.

 

I can't do point for point now. our last post have become to big to quote again.

 

So let me hit the high spots.

 

First and formost I follow my heart, he's been good to me in all my endevers in spiritual life. He has never been wrong! I was wrong not following. And in many ways have suffered because of obstinance. Second guessing, looking for a 'person' to be siksa for me, trusting when it should be the opposite. As soon as I right the situation as Supersoul tells me, all is better. Hasn't failed yet.

 

I trust my heart is not a foul proff system, our hearts are conditioned and motivated. We will get direction according to the 'true' object of disire, there's no cheating Supersoul. So be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

 

Yes, many, if not all those in the room were lacky boys at the end. But the ritvic conversations took place 4-6 months earlier. At that time it was a little more lax as to whom could or could not be in the room. One of my witnesses is not as trust worthy as the other. And the other is impecable, we were new bhaktas together and bonded at the core. If he said ritvic is what was being said then, that is what it is. He said there was a moment between him and Prabhupada that Prabhupada convued to him to be a witness to these talks when asked. I asked. He was never anyones lacky. He's is own man now and then. He survived like me. The connection to Guru was made before any of us knew him, he was good to go walking in the temple, bhakti-lata-bija.

 

Hence forward has a very specific useage. Srila Prabhupada uses this word sparingly, and pointedly to mean without end or to end upon condition. Yes Prabhupada gave them everything, exept spiritual life. That is hidden from cheats like Tamal/co. But what about us, you and me? Why would Srila Prabhupada send out a letter of this nature to all of us? You say He didn't, but it goes along with other evidence that Tamal could not control. So I take the letter as mostly ture. Could be interjection from Tamal to change something. But not henceforward that is Srila Prabhupada, my heart tells me. Its a hundred dollar word and Tamal is a cheep penny-any thief.

 

 

Prabhupada was asked what to do and He said ritvic yes, even if the tape is spliced to hell after that, that much we have in verbal form. Taking that and other pieces it adds up to about 90% potential of ritvic order for me. I had a problem with the last 10%. Supersoul came through a leep of faith delivered by an old and trusted friend, he wept in my arms as he told me, sitting on his bed in Vrndavan, I don't cheaply throw that out. It was a spiritual moment if you know what I mean.

 

Your point of contention about the letter is an excelent point. 'Sending names' I strugled with it for a time. But i'm still ok with how I will look at it. And I give you your view equally. I have had differing mesages than you from supersoul. I have to go with what I'm told in MY heart. But I'm OK if your OK. I do like the 'straight forward' comment too. But I do see a straight line.

 

Kind of like the Indiana Jones movie where their looking for the grail and are traversing a forbidden path with many tricks. They come to a crevasse separating the path. There appears to be no way to cross. Indi takes a leap of faith and lands on a comouflaged bridge. Srila Prabhupada hid in plain sight, He gave this order and tricked Tamal into delivering it to us before His untimely demise.

 

I stopped looking for a person to be my siksa, all everyone ever did was try to replace Prabhupada and my own heart with themselves, middle men. I don't need it, I have Prabhupada, from the begining. That was a very big lesson that took 20 yrs to learn and I don't like paying for the same ground twice.

 

As for the original ritvics they are disqualified. In Prabhupada's will He says if GBC fail to act for any reason they can be replaced. I just apply that same logic to the ritvics.

 

Let us that care, rebuild ISKCON, inside or outside I am not attached. Under the material leadership of ksatriya types, with the 4 varna and asrama system to guide activities of living a devotee life. I miss it so, I love regiment of communal living. I loved the Army too, but they were not ksatriya. This was part of 'my' initiation. To create DVD by the order of Prabhupada. Again before I ever knew any of you I was given this in my heart. If I have to I will come back to fulfill this order from Srila Prabhupada but it would be nice to finish this now and get out of this passion. But with no DVD how can we really live in goodness in the US.

 

Hare Krsna Mahaksa das going to bed.

 

CB-R

[Guest guest]

The nice thing about free will is I can do as I like, and I do not like the article from this Narasingha Swami. Thats just me, I find it minimizing to my father. When he can embody devotional bhakti as Prabhupada does then he can say who is what. If that artical came from a friendly Godbrother to Srila Prabhupada that might be another thing. But it didn't and this swami is not contemporary to A.C. Bhaktivadanta Swami Maharaja. He should not critque his superior as if to lessen said superiors valueable contribution. Thats just me. If 'you' like then that is 'you'

 

I'm only interested in the branch of the Caitanya tree that is Srila Prabhupada and this artical does not help that branch florish.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

The nice thing about free will is I can do as I like, and I do not like the article from this Narasingha Swami. Thats just me, I find it minimizing to my father. When he can embody devotional bhakti as Prabhupada does then he can say who is what. If that artical came from a friendly Godbrother to Srila Prabhupada that might be another thing. But it didn't and this swami is not contemporary to A.C. Bhaktivadanta Swami Maharaja. He should not critque his superior as if to lessen said superiors valueable contribution. Thats just me. If 'you' like then that is 'you'

 

I'm only interested in the branch of the Caitanya tree that is Srila Prabhupada and this artical does not help that branch florish.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

 

Ok Bhakti-raja. Do as you wish. Just know Narasingha Swami wasn't critiquing Srila Swami Maharaj but some of His disciples. From the outside looking in, ISKCON looks like one screwed up mess, and it isn't because of Srila Swami Maharaj not being respected from the outside but the inside, not from him getting too little recognition but ignoring His true position in the disciplic succession of our sampradaya.

[krsna]

O KRSNA is so kind to me that He has given me a pure devotee Guru whom I can take full shelter of, and by following his instuctions I can attain the spiritual abode of KRSNA.

 

GURU is KRSNA's special emissarry to take us all by the hand back to Him.

 

Let us all pray that we all get the Mercy of KRSNA's pure devotee now.

[krsna]

copied from: http://blog.360./blog-51f3TZkzc6epziBYguqzRzJWmQ--?cq=1&l=1&u=5&mx=11&lmt=5

Entry for February 17, 2007

 

Dear Prabhus,

 

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glory to Srila Prabhupada!

 

First, please excuse the typos in my previous posting. I should be more careful before pushing the “post” button. I will endeavor to check my spelling, grammar and punctuation more closely henceforward.

 

Second, my discussion is in no way meant to uphold what has happened in ISKCON since Srila Prabhupada’s Disappearance, nay even prior to his disappearance. The exploitation by the “big shots” is grotesque and horrifying and totally indefensible.

 

Personally I was robbed and threatened to be killed by one of the appointed gurus in 1980, and when I witnessed the other “gurus” covering-up and protecting the guilty I lost all faith in them and never looked back.

 

Srila Prabhupada undoubtedly is present fully in his sound vibration and hearing him is the essential means of developing Krishna Consciousness. Why else did he push us constantly to DISTRIBUTE MY BOOKS? Practically from the day I joined all I did was sell books and organize and facilitate others selling books. Srila Prabhupada lives in his sound forever.

 

What I do not agree with is that one should think that Srila Prabhupada is the only Krishna.Conscious person to ever step on the earth at this time; and/or he is the end of all pure devotees. That is not stated in any shastra, or at anytime by Srila Prabhupada as far as I have heard. If I am wrong, kindly correct me.

 

The first verse of the Guruvastakam says that we get the GURU by the mercy of KRISHNA. If we are sincere, then KRISHNA manifests HIMSELF in the form of GURU as EXTERNAL SUPERSOUL. This is what the philosophy is.

 

Now we can say, “Where are these pure devotees?” Should we not understand that a pure devotee is the most humble of all and he never feels himself a pure devotee? Certainly he is not running an advertising campaign for himself!

 

Yet, KRISHNA is PARAMATMA and when HE sees our sincerity, then HE will appear to us as the pure devotee, that is HIS promise. Some pure devotees may have one disciple like Lokanatha Goswami, others may have no disciples, and others may have hundreds or thousands, but surely KRISHNA has not left the earth planet without a single representative?

 

Now some devotees are finding this in Narayana Maharaja, some in Govinda Maharaja, some in Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja, and in many others including so many disciples of Srila Prabhupada. Are we the judge and jury to declare none are Krishna Conscious?

 

During Srila Prabhupada’s time, so many of his God Brothers found fault with him. And even today some of his past disciples find fault with him in so many ways. So I see Srila Prabhupada as the external manifestation of the Supreme Lord, but others perceived him differently. Is it not possible that this continues now? Someone sees KRISHNA through one devotee and another thorugh another devotee! Is it my position to tell this Bhakta he is wrong? Not in my understanding.

 

Personally in 1991 I was sunk in the grips of Maya and felt that my creeper would never be watered again in this life! By good fortune I visited Vrindavana and began attending Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Swami’s darsans and gradually by hearing HARI KATHA from him, I became established again in the regulative principles and regular HARI NAM. I felt like Srila Prabhupada had appeared to me again through the agency of his God Brother. This was my PERSONAL experience. Others may not have the same experience. Does this make my experience less real?

 

So, what is my point? It is simply, YES FOLLOW SRILA PRABHUPADA instructions, LISTEN to his VANI and obey it, but do not preclude LORD KRSNA from manifesting HIMSELF as GURU externally in the form of His pure devotee(s)

One other point, is simply, if SRILA PRABHUPADA has not been able to produce one pure devotee, then does what he teach work? If we cannot become pure devotees then why should we waste our time????

 

Begging forgiveness for my arrogance and offenses, I remain eternally,

 

Vaisnava Das anu Das,

 

Bhakta dasa

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna,

 

All Glories to the assembled devotees.

 

You know, we all have our sob stories. Me included. I sob every day.

 

And I also empathically understand why people may doubt Srila Prabhupada, or may be confused as to what his exact instructions might have been, because as we know there was a SINISTER, CALCULATED, AND CONCERTED EFFORT TO OBSCURE HIS INSTRUCTIONS.

 

However, I beg that aspiring Vaisnavas refrain from making speculative assessments of what Srila Prabhupada's instructions were. Especially in public. If you are unsure, ask. Have faith that Sri Nityananda Prabhu would not let all his efforts at producing comprehensive Vani for even the MOST FALLEN (ie. not liberated associates like Jagai and Madhai under Yoga-Maya's influence, but nitya-baddha's 100 times worse then them) that those efforts would not go in vain, and that SOMEONE OR SOME GROUP OF SOULS would have received his Vani comprehensively and intact.

 

How could anyone proclaim faith in their chosen Guru and Sri Gauranga and imagine that only by speculating could we know what a glorious Shaktavesha Avatara like HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada wanted us to do?

 

Please think about these things before speaking. This will inevitably lead to humble inquiry, and then, those who DID GET IT, will be compelled by the sincerety of the inquiry to share. Otherwise we set ourselves up for the inevitable. Deeper illusion, offense to Vaisnavas, and probably lockjaw in the end.

 

I hope this has been a sensible post.

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

ys

 

BD

[Shakti-Fan]

 

He gave us the laws for 10,000 years.

 

 

In any event, the phrase attributed to Srila Prabhupada, "For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," is actually not verifiable. He might and he might not have said it. Obviously, some devotees think that he did, otherwise they would not quote it. But it is not mentioned in any of the main writings, books, lectures, letters, room conversations, morning walks and so forth which have been recorded and preserved in the archives. Therefore, we do not accept such hearsay as an absolute or authoritative statement.

-

 

...Thats just me, I find it minimizing to my father.

"For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," The statement that "my books are the law books for the next ten thousand years" is equally unverifiable.

 

The so-called "Bhakti Raja's" respnse is typical of those who promote, as Sridhar Maharaja said, an "imaginary Prabhupada." Sometimes they may even imagine that they are the King of Bhakti. Srimati Radhika is the queen of bhakti; rani means queen therefore Radharani. Krsna is the king of Srimati Radharani. Unless this means that you are Krsna's authorized representative. Maybe you could find a position as a bhakta leader?

[mahak]

Haribol, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja, and members of this discussion. I am much appreciative of the tone of this discussion. It serves no purpose to rehash the sad histories, but we can just call it normalcy for this age we find ourselves in. The following of the Lord in the Heart is all we have, all we ever had, and this is the fact, as discussed on threists classic supersoul hotline, everyone has, indeed, a bonafide spiritual master.

 

The trick is to separate our mental dictates from the Superself who gives us factual information continually from birth to death and beyond. Supersoul has led some of us to the masterpieces of Srila Prabhupada, and we accidentally delved into the subject matter, and some purification due to authenticity accidentally took place. The result is that by using this outside information, the external guru sent by internal guru, we have, at our disposal, the tools needed to separate the mind shaff from Supresoul grain. Not deserved, just causeless.

 

So we have all these displays. The GBC show, the rtvik show, the old hindu show, the 50 or so independent schools begun by our contemporary godbrothers and godsisters. All these shows insist that Srila Prabhupada is there in their linkage to authenticity, but it is still their claim, which still needs us to use the tools given to us by Supersouls empowered representative. We judge, we use discernment, to separate the shaff from the grain.

 

As I do occasionally, posting Lord Jesus Christ's words makes points clearer: "(matt 10:25-30) Lord Jesus Christ Prayed, "I praise You, Abah (Father), Lord of heaven and earth, because You hide from the learned scholars while revealing Yourself to the poor and needy. You have turned everything over to the Son, and nobody knows the Son except the Father, nor does anybody know the Father except the Son and those with ears to hear from the Son and are pleasing to the Son. All you poor and needy, come to the Son and I will refresh you. Take My Yoke (Yoga) upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and modest and you may confide in Me. My Yoke is comfortable and My load is light."

 

So, Srila Prabhupada is incomparable. But he still gives us the tools to use to verify who is acting as empowered representative of Supersoul. We look for those who present Prabhupada as he is. If we go to a temple and hear rebellion against vaisnava schools from the pulpit, this is not Prabhupadas program. If we get a magazine that is devoted to info about true crime, tabloid gossip, legal wranglings, this is not the nectar, nor in any way similar, to the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. The only folks who should be heard from are those who distribute prasadam, are in the streets with dancing and transcendental sound being presented, sometimes even at great personal risk. Preaching missions who hold symposiums that agitate against other vaisnavas are bogus. Maybe they are even truthful by saying "such and such is bogus and criminally misrepresentative", but what good are they, because they are just as bogus, not at all presenting the nectar we are really anxious for, following in the footsteps of Srila Prabhupada.

 

So who do we hear from? Only those who are pressing this movement forward. Politics and scandal were handled by Srila Prabhupada by quickly drafted letters to those concerned, his books were not at all done in the same manner. Some want to make a religion by using his management memoes as shastra, but this is not his way. In fact, he criticized the use of such informal documents produced by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta by his disciples. Srila Prabhupada is not a lawgiver, his books are not CODES. I cringe when I hear this 10,000 year stuff, its the same sentimentsal fanaticism of the prabhupada saidders. This whole idea is rejected continually by him, he states clearly that he has produced nothing, he is merely repeating as he has heard. An exuberant cheer at a business meeting discussing book sales is not necessarily shastra, any more than a rubber stamp signature on a letter from an ambitious heir waiting for death is shastra.

 

We separate grain from shaff, we are ordered to become paramahamsa and be able to do this DISCERNMENT to distinguish our mental machinations from Supersoul reality.

 

Gotta go, captain johnson (born 1948, died 1970) needs my attention. No one ever got him a headstone, Im thinkin about doing a fundraiser. He needs a bit of closure on his vietnam experiance. Graveyard work, I love it, best job I ever had. Wporking for the Trident Missile Program was exciting, but the work at the little forgotton Arlington federal cemetary branch is much more satisfying. Dont worry, I didnt go avadhuta yet (not for a few more years), my graveyard is not really the place to do the ashes bit and the partaking of food thru a human skull, but it aint a bad gig.

 

mo later on the issue at hand, thanks one and all for your sensible and respectful discussion on this touchy discussion. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

PS BTW, I know a person who is actually doing the officiating acarya thing whom I fully support. But I cant discuss publically, my e-mail is

 

mahaksa_d@hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

 

"For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," The statement that "my books are the law books for the next ten thousand years" is equally unverifiable.

 

The so-called "Bhakti Raja's" respnse is typical of those who promote, as Sridhar Maharaja said, an "imaginary Prabhupada." Sometimes they may even imagine that they are the King of Bhakti. Srimati Radhika is the queen of bhakti; rani means queen therefore Radharani. Krsna is the king of Srimati Radharani. Unless this means that you are Krsna's authorized representative. Maybe you could find a position as a bhakta leader?

 

 

 

 

Hare Krsna Shakti-fan

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti is may legal name. Raja is by varna, which I add to denote my mode of servise to Srila Prabhupada both by vapu and vani. I already have position, it is just the 'field ' that has been usurped. Yes, I do have authorization to act as Ksatriya, from Prabhupada starting in 76.

 

Though I've been working with 7 bhaktas, they have proven unrully and difficult at best. If you can do better then I will take you under my wing.

 

Please try not to be so presumptuous as to explain on this form why I use the name I do, just ask politely and I will be forth comeing. I am not hiding and if you are an ISKCON follower you should readily understand division by guna and karma, as Srila Prabhupada said to do. Just because you didn't understand or follow, doesn't mean I didn't do it..

 

Thank you, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Hare Krsna Shakti-fan

 

 

Hare Krsna, Chaturbahu Prabhu.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Well, lets see.

 

We start out blind and crazy mlecchas. We maybe understood something Supersoul tried to convey to us a hanful of times over our lifespan. The rest is him, using the gunas, to move us around and arrange us where we might just maybe stumble upon his "external rep" and humbly accept something he has to give.

 

So he gives some tools. At first they are rules. No-one gets the unalloyed eternal dictation from Supersoul without following the rules strictly. And that eternal dictation is not cheaply gained by a couple years of neophyte service For Most of Us. It is actually a symptom of the most exalted Vaisnava to have uninterrupted conscious communion with Supersoul.

 

But I know too many, way too many, who push this "supersoul connection" as if they already have it CONSCIOUSLY established eternally. Many of them post on this forum. If it wasn't so sad, I would say it is laughable.

 

Cheap, imitation, sahajya.

 

And of course so deluded, it is not a big leap for such persons to begin to speculate about what Srila Prabhupada "REALLY WANTED". After all, look at all the people floundering to understand what his comprehensive instructions for sadhana are, when all you have to do is worship caitya-guru and next thing you know, instant acharya. Just add caitya guru!

 

As Mahak pointed out, Jesus understood quite well that someone like this cannot possibly understand the direct and simple instructions given by an Acharya.

 

And similarly, so deluded, these people turn a blind eye to their own mixed devotional status, conclude that Maha-Maya's dictates are those of Sri Paramatma, and reject their varna, reject the multitude of instructions Srila Prabhupada gave to first get us into honesty about our material goals in Varnasrama, and then "just add Krsna".

 

So deluded, that I am expecting one or more of them to respond to this post with some nonsense about Vaisnava's not indulging in politics, or Srila Prabhupada wasn't the founder of Iskcon (quote from Narayana Maharaja) or some similar tripe.

 

Srila Prabhupada once requested that his disciples "Become broad-minded".

 

This does not mean to accept the rantings of speculative fools who are so boldly egoic as to quickly proclaim they got the essence of Srila Prabhupada's instructions, and then counter them in black and white.

 

The broad minded thing to do is to respectfully expose their tripe for the benefit of the innocent, and move along. Best to avoid their company altogether, but that type of person needs the prana of others to survive, so you will find them insinuating themselves everywhere. And so it goes.

 

Hare Krsna

[mahak]

Ludicrous, ya say. I agree somewhat, to the extent that there is equal amounts of persons who post on the internet who have conclusions of nonsense, on oppoosite sides of the same coin. We have the "I know what he wants" crowd, and the "nobody will ever know what he wants" crowd. Both are useless. Some think he is cheaply attained, some say the price cannot ever be paid, both are worng.

 

There is no need for speculation as to what he wants, he has published over 60 hard back volumes of teachings as to what he wants from those who want to follow him. He wants us to become uttama adhikari, he wants us to be full gurus empowered by Lord Nityananda to deliver the suffering masses. He tells us how in every paragraph he writes. One who fully understands and acts on such understanding, of just the introduction of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, such a person is fully qualified to make disciples all over the world.

 

So, some say there are many vaisnava acaryas, initiating disciples all over the world. Some say there will never be another acarya. Both are wrong. One is saying that folks who have materialistic hankerings can be diksa guru, thus they deny the authority of Srila Rupa Goswami, whose nectar of instruction specifically describes the faultlessness of such a vaisnava acarya. The other is saying that the position of Strila Prabhupada is of a Visnu-tattwa status, never attainable, modern day christian-affected false deification.

 

A vaisnava acarya is very rare. And, if one studies shastra as well as the teachings of past acaryas, such a person will know of the descending process of vaisnavism. The idea proposed by many rtviks I have known over the years is that one just needs to pledge allegiance to prabhupada through a ceremony conducted thru one of their initiation systems. Why? wHAT IS THE DEAL HERE? ARE WE TO COMMIT SUICIDE BY ELIMINATING THE ACTUAL WORKINGS OF GURU TATTWA? (Not yelling, my finger slipped>)

 

If one reads the things they like to quote, they will find out that a kanistha adhikari cannot do a guru search, it is impossible. Rtviks like to state that one must find an uttama adhikari, and the quote is posted for all to believe what they say. What they dont say is that a kanistha adhikari has no ability to distinguish a devotee from a demon. So the neophyte, following bad advice, finds out who is an uttama adhikari by googling the word uttama, and a whole list of falsely advertized naistika brahmacari mahabhagavatas are listed. No, kanistha adehikaris must reject all guru searches, because this is how they are grossly abused. Only when one is a madhyama adhikari can one distinguish between a devotee and a demon. So we have to consider that guru tattwa has another mechanism that solves this incontrovertable stumbling block.

 

There is, it is called the descending process (ever hear that before?). The way Guru Tattwa works is that Lord Nityananda Prabhu, omnescient, knows fully the heart of the indiuvidual, every individual. When one has had enough, Lord Nityananda knows, so he activates the empowerment of his external representative. Srimad Bhagavatam discusses this fully in the very first canto, where sukadeva arrives at the scene of King Pariksits samadhi site. Sukadeva Goswami was "INSPIRED" to appear before the king, to give him divya jnana, the absolute truth, taking all questions and giving full and perfect and complete responses. Sukadeva is inspired by Lord Krsna himself to appear before the sincere King Pariksit, who asks, "Im about to die, who has the info I need?"

 

Srila Prabhupada appeared before me. My so-called search went thru the Who, meher baba, edgar cayce, timothy leary, augustus Owsley, ken kesey. Not a bad search, but typical for a kanistha adhikari. There was Srila Prabhupada, in the form of a devotee of his hitchhiking on the freeway (turned out to be Visnujnana, BTW). He spoke of entanglement, he spoke of How a guru named Prabhupada (who? Never heard of him. The Hare Krsnas? Oh yes. He is their guru? Tell me more.) came to him as well. Later siksa gurus, one who was a guru himself, all confirmed how Srila Prabhupada appeared before him. Srila Prabhupada, on the occasion of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati' disappearance, (1969 and 1973 lectures), also described how his guru maharaja appeared before him.

 

So one can deny guru tattwa by saying guru doesnt descend from the spiritual strata empowered by supersoul, but this is opposite of what Srila Prabhupada teaches. One can demand that a kanistha adhikari must find an uttama adhikari to hear from, but this is utter cruelty comparable to demanding that a paraplegic get up and walk, or the blind guy to describe the mountain panorama.

 

Haribol, for now, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Mahaksa

 

Yes, we can have our say without hurting each other, this is best. But if we seem harsh at times it might be just a way of expressing passion on line, rather than true malice. Though I have seen over the yrs of watching this form some examples that could qualify as 'true malice' I will try to avoid that place. Thank you for the gentlemanly quality of recognizing the attempt.

 

I like your last post. I quess the simple understanding for me is, that I have looked around and keep getting pushed back into the arms of what I call Prabhupada and Krsna in my heart. I tryed for years to have this relationship outside with other devotees, but always run into problems. Especially over DVD. The short of it, I would never accept anyone as supirior, to hold a possition of siksa, that has no grasp of this DVD concept that Srila Prabhupa so lovingly introduced to save the faltering ISKCON in His now famous DVD conversation of 1974. This conversation acted on me though I was on the outside of ISKCON at the time and knew nothing of it's existence, conversation nor movement. I was just reading alone BG.

 

It is my duty to push forward DVD implimentation as best I can. I can not avoid this, no more than Srila Prabhupada could avoid preaching and writing in English for Western man, years before ISKCON.

 

So for me I have to concentrate on ISKCON's survival. Not IS-A-CON, ISKCON! So the ship can be righted w/DVD implimentation and steam ahead fully. What goes on outside I am very much unconcerned with mostly, but appreciate. That means if one of my God brothers has a mission, I see no reason to reject His branch, I'm to lowly to have my own branch and have to stay in the ISKCON enclave under Prabhupada's close scrutiny, even I'm not aloud to read other books because I have no brain for Vaisnava discrimination and can only understand Srila Prabhupada's books. So Iskcon has to live for me, even if just in my heart for now. I am a conditioned soul and need the institution to become Vaisnava.

 

Though Srila Prabhupada had no movement, this did not stop Him from translateing into english selcted works of Vaisnava literature for yrs before ISKCON, I practice my varna as life offers opportunity to act, daily, minute by minute. In all spheres of active life.

 

So for me it is ritvic yes, Yes to poison vani and vapu, yes to sinister movement takover, soul fall is superficial and a waste of time, manage by DVD and push on sankirtan, street chanting, book distribution and prasadam distribution. Organize our lives as such under DVD sanction and live communally creating our own society, beacons of light to attract the poor out casts in maya living a dead life in/on the Matrix of Maha Maya.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[theist]

 

So he gives some tools. At first they are rules. No-one gets the unalloyed eternal dictation from Supersoul without following the rules strictly. And that eternal dictation is not cheaply gained by a couple years of neophyte service For Most of Us. It is actually a symptom of the most exalted Vaisnava to have uninterrupted conscious communion with Supersoul.

 

But I know too many, way too many, who push this "supersoul connection" as if they already have it CONSCIOUSLY established eternally. Many of them post on this forum. If it wasn't so sad, I would say it is laughable.

 

Cheap, imitation, sahajya.

 

But let's not mention names. LOL. Sorry to find out that after 30 odd years of being around the teachings of Srila Prabhupada you still haven't read Bhagavad-gita As It Is. I am sure you turned the pages to that great book but apparently you read it with your eyes closed.

 

If you try again you will notice that Krsna describes how He as Supersoul is directing the wanderings of all conditioned souls, some to heaven some to hell and some to the teachings of His external manifestation as Guru.

 

Are you really so arrogant that you cannot admit you did not connect up with Srila Prabhupada by the power of your own independent intelligence? Or perhaps you think it was just dumb luck, a random happening akin to the atheistic scientists thinking all the universe has come about by the random colliding of one molecule against the other with no God in control.

 

The basic principle of theism is that there is a Supreme God who is in control at all times. Not to understand this in our lives is a form of atheism.

 

It is solely by Supersoul's arrangement anyone meets up with guru in vapu and further garce is needed to be able to hear Supersoul's voice as that guru's vani. If you are not hearing Supersoul speaking as your spiritual master and through his form I dare say you have no guru at all except maybe in the most superfical of ways. Guru may be constitutional jiva but because he is 100% dovetailed with Krsna the spiritual insight that comes from him is directly the Lord's voice speaking as the that guru. To conclude that one hears his spiritual master loud and clear but that he can't hear Supersoul is a sign that one has no spiritual connection with the spiritual master at all. All he may have is a delusion of such a connection.

 

Appreciating and acknowledging the presence of the Supersoul within us does not mean you have to have established a pure transcendental realization of Him yet. First we must accept it intellectualy, as per the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita, and then deepen that understanding and relationship through time and practice.

 

Supersoul is the missing link in all these guru/ritvik discussions. If the ecclesiastical folks in Iskcon understood this then they would see that there never was any need for them to jump in and try to direct devotees to this guru or that. They would know that Supersoul in the heart answers the sincere seeker by directing him to His own representative on earth. But because they don't accept this simple thing one is forced to conclude that they also have an atheists understanding despite their mountains of religious garb and paraphenelia. The self appointed so-called ritviks are just another form of this same faithlessness.

[Beggar]

 

Well, lets see.

 

We start out blind and crazy mlecchas.

Speak for yourself!!!!

 

 

 

Cheap, imitation, sahajya.

Never met a sahajiya that I didn't like.

 

 

 

 

As Mahak pointed out, Jesus understood quite well that someone like this cannot possibly understand the direct and simple instructions given by an Acharya.

I don't believe in in Jesus, I just believe in me, Yoko and me, and that's reality.

 

 

So deluded, that I am expecting one or more of them to respond to this post with some nonsense about Vaisnava's not indulging in politics, or Srila Prabhupada wasn't the founder of Iskcon (quote from Narayana Maharaja) or some similar tripe.

I'm still veg so I don't eat Tripe nor would I even feed it to my dog. And although I don't dislike NM, I don't quote him, so there!!!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

But let's not mention names. LOL. Sorry to find out that after 30 odd years of being around the teachings of Srila Prabhupada you still haven't read Bhagavad-gita As It Is. I am sure you turned the pages to that great book but apparently you read it with your eyes closed.

 

If you try again you will notice that Krsna describes how He as Supersoul is directing the wanderings of all conditioned souls, some to heaven some to hell and some to the teachings of His external manifestation as Guru.

 

Blah, blah, blah Theist, oh how you condescend.

 

 

Are you really so arrogant that you cannot admit you did not connect up with Srila Prabhupada by the power of your own independent intelligence?

 

There you go again with your amateur mind reading trick. Why don't you try asking me? And don't bother saying I implied this, it is just your Supersoul trip blinding you.

 

 

Or perhaps you think it was just dumb luck, a random happening akin to the atheistic scientists thinking all the universe has come about by the random colliding of one molecule against the other with no God in control.

 

My dumb luck would be that you would stop being so condescending and cruel.

 

 

The basic principle of theism is that there is a Supreme God who is in control at all times. Not to understand this in our lives is a form of atheism.

 

I should write that down. What a realization.

 

 

It is solely by Supersoul's arrangement anyone meets up with guru in vapu and further garce is needed to be able to hear Supersoul's voice as that guru's vani. If you are not hearing Supersoul speaking as your spiritual master and through his form I dare say you have no guru at all except maybe in the most superfical of ways. Guru may be constitutional jiva but because he is 100% dovetailed with Krsna the spiritual insight that comes from him is directly the Lord's voice speaking as the that guru.

 

At a more advanced stage of Sadhana, after reading and understanding, a person will realize that their Spiritual master is Supersoul.

 

But you neglect to admit that my post was directed at the concept of people claiming to by guided by Paramatma within in a consistent, clear, and undiluted form. You have this tendency, did you ever notice? You know deflection and then elaboration on an irrelevant point?

 

 

To conclude that one hears his spiritual master loud and clear but that he can't hear Supersoul is a sign that one has no spiritual connection with the spiritual master at all. All he may have is a delusion of such a connection.

 

More exaggeration. And revealing. According to this false statement a neophyte person cannot AT ALL, hear and follow ANY of their Guru's instructions unless they can consciously conclude and state that he is "hearing" supersoul. How many people sincerely followed Srila Prabhupada's instructions when they first met him, before they even knew the concept of Paramatma? Huh Theist? You just want to fight? No reasonable discussion here right? Just a slugfest?

 

Not that anyone knows me or cares about me on this forum, but if anyone cares, they can go back and read what I wrote about, and then see how much you actually read what I said before responding. Perhaps what I wrote hit home, and I was describing something you tend to do? Is that why you are being so exaggerative and defensive here? Is this your sandbox Theist?

 

 

Appreciating and acknowledging the presence of the Supersoul within us does not mean you have to have established a pure transcendental realization of Him yet. First we must accept it intellectualy, as per the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita, and then deepen that understanding and relationship through time and practice.

 

Oh My God. The first sensible thing you have said. As a matter of fact, that is what I have been saying. All these people touting instant Paramatma realization without strictly following the instructive process are cheap and cheating.

 

 

Supersoul is the missing link in all these guru/ritvik discussions. If the ecclesiastical folks in Iskcon understood this then they would see that there never was any need for them to jump in and try to direct devotees to this guru or that. They would know that Supersoul in the heart answers the sincere seeker by directing him to His own representative on earth. But because they don't accept this simple thing one is forced to conclude that they also have an atheists understanding despite their mountains of religious garb and paraphenelia. The self appointed so-called ritviks are just another form of this same faithlessness.

 

That first part of that paragraph was nice, and I heartily agree. I don't know any self-appointed ritviks. Do you?

 

Cyber Hari Bol

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Speak for yourself!!!!

 

 

Never met a sahajiya that I didn't like.

 

 

 

I don't believe in in Jesus, I just believe in me, Yoko and me, and that's reality.

 

 

I'm still veg so I don't eat Tripe nor would I even feed it to my dog. And although I don't dislike NM, I don't quote him, so there!!!

 

I love you too Beggar. I just wish you had a better sense of humor. It takes some time. Just like being able to take constant dictation from Sri Paramatma. Well, maybe not, some people become funny before that happens.

 

Hare Krsna

[gHari]

My friends, we all get over the heartache as best we can, stupefied that we found ourselves alone in this world on that devastating day in 77. The only one who rode in our hearts our whole life was somehow removed without warning.

 

We get through it the best we can. Let each grieve in his own way. I don't think Krsna has abandoned even one of us.

[theist]

 

don't know any self-appointed ritviks. Do you?

All your friends who perform these so-called ritvik initiations are either self-appointed or ecclesiastically selected from their local association.

 

The only ones who could claim to have been instructed by Srila Prabhupada to continue such initiations within his Iskcon were the magnificant 11 and they certainly showed no interest in it.

 

Connecting with Krsna and His devotee comes via grace from the Lord and that grace is not dependent ritvik "initiation" ceremonies.

 

So again I ask, "Who needs a ritvik?"

[krsna]

Initiation is the beginning of our bhakti to Krsna. Krsna more than anything wants us back with Him. Pray to Krsna for Guru; then Guru will give you Krsna in real time, interactively in the spiritual dimension beyond time and space from the lotus lips of His pure unalloyed Bhagavan Bhakta.

 

A priest or rtvik will not do justice to Krsna's way of delivering bhakti into your heart.

[theist]

 

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I should write that down. What a realization.

Yes you should write it down if you have a hard time remembering it writing may help.

 

And yes what a realization it will be when obtained. The problem is very rare is the soul that is seeking realization. Most of us prefer to take things in philosophically and be done with it. Moving on then to what is perceived as a higher topic. Having learned the basic concepts there they move on yet again often ending up with gopi or manjari-bhava at which time they start to imitate what they conceive those pastimes to be. Looking for Krsna hiding behind some bush in Vrndavan after years of ignoring Him within the heart won't be fruitful. Some of these folks actually become cross dressers thinking they are gopis.

 

 

All the while failing to realize any of it along the way. This intellectual tower of babel that we try to build comes with one major constructural flaw. That is shown by our unwillingness to realize Krsna within our own hearts and the hearts of others. IOW's we still want to avoid becoming Krsna conscious in the realized sense and are satisfied with an imitation Vaisnava life of intellect only. We call it bhakti but it is really just a form of jnana yoga which hasn't resulted in realization yet.

 

My point is that a tiny drop of bhakti at least is necessary to approach the REALIZED PLANE. And it is this plane only that denotes an advanced devotee from the rest of the herd.

[Guest guest]

I was googlin, trying to find the lyrics by an alanis morisette type singer that I think goes, "cant breathe", but then I came here. Cant read is very well put, theist. Some have all the quotes whittled down to an art form, but they cant read.

 

Like I get this "supersoul cannot come to you unless you follow the rules", and besides thinking this person must be the guy who assigns supersoul his duties, I also come to conclude that he may be able to quote the will, the DOM, J9, M28, he musta never heard of Dhruva Maharaja, who was full of materialistic desire, anger and envy, and was only five years old, yet supersoul not only influenced him, he actually took shape.

 

But why instruct the faithless, ya gotta have a background (ears) to be able to hear. There is good discussion here, and potentiual for understanding, and even a possibility to grasp the concept of unity in diversity. But fanatics dont want any of that, if you dont surrender to them in fool (full), they cast ya to swine.

 

haribol, ys, mahak

[theist]

I hear ya brother Mahak. Enough said. Time to retreat to my own little enclave for awhile and not waste time reacting to others posts. Thanks for the siksa.

 

pranams

[Beggar]

And to all a Good bye and Good night,

and for you, Mrs. Kalabash, Good night, wherever you are.

Moderator: LOCK THIS THREAD, NOW, PLEASE, PRETTY PLEASE!