Who does Lord Shiva meditate upon?

[Guest guest]

 

I opened this interesting thread to know the truth. The initial question is diverted to discuss KC. Is anybody really knows the correct answer please answer precisely.

 

Shiva is not meditating on anyone or anything. He is in a state of Samadhi.

 

Om

[Guest guest]

 

Shiva is not meditating on anyone or anything. He is in a state of Samadhi.

 

Om

 

Well, many HKs believe Shiva is meditating on Krishna chanting Hare Krishna! ;-) What about the Dwapara Yuga? Did you know the legend of Lord Shiva granting Sudarshana Chakra to Lord Vishnu who used to worship him with a thousand lotus petals everyday? One day, due to Shiva's maya, one lotus was missing, so Vishnu plucked out his own eye and offered on the Shivalinga. Lord Shiva pleased with this granted him the formidable Sudarshana Chakra - the most devastating weapon, that Hari / Krishna bears. This can be found in the Shiva Mahapurana.

[Guest guest]

 

In my opinion, saying shiva as tamasi and saying that living entities reaching shiva and then to vishnu is absolutely incorrect.WHAT IS THE NEED TO REACH VISHNU WHEN ONE ATTAIN LORD SHIVA???????.

Really no need.

 

This means that vishnu is greater to shiva which is absolutely incorrect. For me , all three gunas including tamas is a illusion of maya.Worshipping shiva involve lot of sattvic qualities.

At least the HKs think so. They live in their own world, which is the purest, the rarest, having the only true and highest path. All other paths are considered lesser intelligent / and so so..

[Guest guest]

Very intersting indeed!!

Thanks for this picture!

I would love to offer my obeisances to Shri HariHara deity and indeed its a slap on the face of all those who try to put down Shiva or Vishnu!

The deity clearly shows Hari and Hara equal and half of each other.

Lovely! What's the history, basis of this deity though? Who established it and why?

 

Narayan Maharaj's tale, does no justice to the deity. It says half of the body is servant to the other half. But the other half is not servant or subserviant.

Again, the story is a usual Gaudiya tale with - Shiva being subsurviant to Vishnu - did this and that.. only to please Vishnu, dependent on Vishnu etc.

Even with the HariHara deity showing the equality of Shiva and Vishnu, the gaudiyas didn't refrain from Shiva subserviant version of theirs This remarkably exhibits that Gaudiyas are unable to see Lord Shiva as God and simply try to be nice to others by saying that Shiva is mysterious and is an expansion of Vishu and Vishnu tattva. Why not the other way round? eh..?

Regards,

 

Y.K.

 

 

Please post them yK. My tiny self cannot conceive of the wonder and greatness of God. A great mystery.

 

Below is a picture of Sri Harihara.

 

[Guest guest]

Why don't they chant Om Namah Shivaya along with Gauranga in front of this deity? I'm sure HKs have a ready made explaination for it too. The explaination is Navadvipa is HK base. HKs believe Vishnu/Krishna is Supreme God and Shiva his servant.

 

 

Below is a little copy and paste from a Gaudiya Vaisnava perspective of this Holy Place. I would be interested to also read of a Shaivites perspective of this Deity form and Holy Place.

 

Shivaites perspective is the opposite of the gaudiyas perspective.

Lord Shiva is the Supreme Lord. And Vishnu is an expansion.

 

 

 

From Shri Navadwipa-dhama by Shrila BV Narayana Maharaja

Through the grammatical compound raamah yasya

ishvarah sa raameshvarah the meaning of Raameshvara becomes:

‘Raameshvara is he whose Lord is Raama.’” Thus, Shri Krishna is

established as the sole Lord of all lords, and Shankara as His

precious servant.

Yes truly Gaudiya story indeed.

 

Vaishnavas acknowledge Lord Shankara as dear to the Supreme

Lord and the spiritual master of the Vaishnavas, and therefore

they respect and honour him. Shankara is kshetrapaala, the

protector of all of Bhagavaan’s holy abodes. In Vrindaavana, where

he accepts the mood of a gopi, he is famous as Shri Gopishvara.

He bestows krishna-prema upon qualified living entities, and

thus gives them entrance into Vrindaavana. Shrimad-Bhaagavatam

also accepts Shankara as the best of Vaishnavas, vaishnavaanaam

yathaa shambhuh. Even if the Lord gives him unpleasant instructions,

Shankara is forever attentive to carry them out. When the

ocean of milk had been churned, Shankara, understanding

Vishnu’s desire, drank the poison the churning had produced and

thus protected the universe. Shankara also understood the desire

of his Lord and Master, Shri Krishna, that he come as Shri

Shankaraacaarya to propagate impersonalism, which is opposed to

the principles of the Vedas. By doing this he obscured pure

devotion and knowledge of the essential reality of the Supreme

Personality, subdued the atheistic Buddhists, and destroyed the

impersonal karma-kaanda [the division of the Vedas that deals

with fruitive activities]. By always observing Bhagavaan’s desire,

Shankara serves the Lord’s innermost desire.

[Guest guest]

 

Shrimad-Bhaagavatam

also accepts Shankara as the best of Vaishnavas, vaishnavaanaam

yathaa shambhuh. Even if the Lord gives him unpleasant instructions,

Shankara is forever attentive to carry them out.

 

Well, Shrimad Bhagawatam accepts a lot of other things besides this one small quote, that the Gaudiyas turn a blind eye to. For example:

 

SB 4.6.42: Lord Brahma said: My dear Lord Shiva, I know that you are the controller of the entire material manifestation, the combination father and mother of the cosmic manifestation, and the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation as well. I know you in that way.

 

Here Lord Brahma considers Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman AND beyond!!

 

This is more appropriate to this thread from Shrimad Bhagwatam:

 

SB 8.7.20: The devas observed Lord ?iva sitting on the summit of Kail?sa Hill with his wife, Bhav?n?, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisances and prayers with great respect.

Therefore when a devotee of Lord Shiva worship him as supreme and thus gain libretion.

 

Yes Shiva is the best of Vaishnavas just as Vishnu is the best of Shaivas.

Hara OM!

 

Nama Shivaya!

[bija]

 

Again, the story is a usual Gaudiya tale with - Shiva being subsurviant to Vishnu - did this and that.. only to please Vishnu, dependent on Vishnu etc. quote by yK

Bhakti is central in the Gaudiya understanding. In this great science of Bhakti it is said that Lord GaurangaKrsna becomes subservient to His devotee. This occurs due to the strength of the devotees Bhakti. Now, this is a great science and mystery. If the Lord is all-powerful, how does he become subservient to the desires of his devotee. Surely by the nature of love. The more deeply this science of love is searched out, the more this mystery can be understood.

 

With keeping this central theme of love as the meditation it can be seen that Lord Shiva's position in Gaudiya understanding is not minimized, but exalted.

 

But saying this, we could use and quote scripture for eternity, and still come to no final conclusion amongst ourselves (unless we have reached the stage of samhadi), as to the initial question. "Who does Lord Shiva meditate upon"? I find this unique among Vedic literature, compared to some other religions, that things are not so black and white in the scripture. Understandable really, considering that God is way beyond our small-selves and cannot be classified (to be put in a box). This is the nature of God, in him all things are possible, which leaves little room for black and white philosophy.

 

So to answer the question from a personal perspective in relation to the Lord of my heart. "Who does Lord Shiva meditate upon?" I will quote the following scripture written by my Ishta Gurudeva Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, whilst he was in samadhi.

 

 

 

 

 

Navadvipa-dhama-mahatmya

 

 

 

Parikrama-khanda

 

By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

 

Chapter Eight

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shri Harihara-kshetra, Maha-Varanasi, and Godruma

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All glories to Lord Chaitanya, Shri Shacisuta! All glories to Lord Nityananda, Shri Avadhuta! All glories to Sitapati, Advaita Prabhu, king of the devotees! All glories to Gadadhara and the society of devotees! All glories to beautiful Navadvipa-dhama! And all glories to the name of Gaura!

 

….."This Navadvipa Kashi, however, is superior to the other Kashi. Here, Shiva is always dancing and chanting the name of Gaura, begging his followers to accept gaura-bhakti. The sannyasis who live for a thousand years in Kashi may attain liberation through the cultivation of jnana, but here the devotees kick away that liberation as they dance and chant the name of Gauranga. While leaving the body here, living entities are delivered by Lord Shiva, who chants the name of Gauranga in their ears. This dhama is thus called Maha-Varanasi, for here there is no fear of death."

At that moment Nityananda Prabhu began dancing, and He asked Jiva to accept gaura-prema. Invisible to everyone, Shiva came forward and bowed at Nityananda's lotus feet. Lord Shiva and his consort, Gauri, achieved all their desires by always singing the name of Gauranga……

 

And below, we can read about Lord Gauranga's mood toward Lord Shiva...

 

 

Shri Shivashtakam composed by the Supreme Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu Himself should be recited on Shivaratri to glorify Lord Shiva:

 

Sri Sivatakam

composed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

 

namo namas te tri-dasesvaraya, bhutadi-nathaya mridaya nityam

ganga-tarangotthita-bala-candra-cudaya gauri-nayanotsavaya 13

 

nama nama - repeated obeisances; te - to you; tri-dasa-isvaraya - to the lord of the 30 principal demigods; bhuta - of all beings; adi-nathaya - unto the primeval lord; mdaya - to the gracious one; nityam - perpetually; ganga-taranga - the waves of the Ganga; utthita - arises; bala-candra - by the new moon; cudaya - crested; gauri - for the goddess Gauri (the fairest of women); nayana-utsavaya - to the festival for the eyes.

 

"I perpetually offer obeisances unto you, the lord of the thirty primal devas, who are the original father of created beings, whose character is gracious, upon whose head, which is crested by the sickle moon, the Ganga springs, and who are a festival for the eyes of Gauri, the fair goddess.

 

su-tapta-camikara-candra-nila-padma-pravalambuda-kanti-vastraih

suntya-rangeta-vara-pradaya, kaivalya-nathaya va-dhvajaya 14

 

su-tapta - molten; camikara - gold; candra - moon; nila-padma - blue lotus; pravala - budding; ambuda - cloud; kanti - luster; vastraih - with garments; sa - he; ntya-ranga - of pleasure-dancing; ita - desired; vara-pradaya - to you who bestow the boon; kaivalya-nathaya - to the lord of the monists; va-dhvajaya - to he whose flag bears a bull.

 

"I offer my obeisances to you who resemble a moon of molten gold, who are dressed in garments colored like a group of budding blue lotuses or lustrous rainclouds, who bestow the most desirable boon to your devotees by your delightful dancing, who offer shelter to those who seek to become one with the transcendental effulgence of Godhead, and whose flag bears the image of the bull.

 

sudhasu-suryagni-vilocanena, tamo-bhide te jagatah sivaya

sahasra-subhrasu-sahasra-rasmi-sahasra-sanjittvara-tejase 'stu 15

 

sudha-asu - nectar-rayed (moon); surya - sun; agni - fire; vilocanena - by your eyes; tamo-bhide - the dissipater of darkness; te - to you; jagatah - of the cosmos; sivaya - for auspiciousness; sahasra - a thousand; subhra-asu - white-rayed (moon) sahasra-rasmi - the thousand-rayed sun; sahasra - a thousand; sanjit - completely defeated; tvara - swift; tejase - to you whose power; astu - let it be.

 

"I offer my obeisances to you who dispel darkness with your three eyes - the moon, the sun, and fire - and thus cause auspiciousness for all the living entities of the universe, and whose potency easily defeats thousands of moons and suns.

 

nagesa-ratnojjvala-vigrahaya, sarddula-carmasuka-divya-tejase

sahasra-patropari sasthitaya, varangadamukta-bhuja-dvayaya 16

 

naga-isa - the king of snakes; ratna - gems; ujjvala - luminous; vigrahaya - to you whose form; sardula-carma - skins of tigers; asuka - garments; divya-tejase - to you of divine potency; sahasra-patra-upari - upon a thousand-petalled lotus; sasthitaya - to you who stand; vara-angada - with beautiful bangles; amukta - dressed; bhuja-dvayaya - to you whose two arms are such.

 

"I offer my obeisances to you, whose form is brilliantly illuminated by the jewels of Ananta-deva, the king of snakes, who possess divine potencies and are clothed in a tiger-skin, who stands in the midst of a thousand-petalled lotus, and whose two arms are adorned by lustrous bangles.

 

su-nupuraranjita-pada-padma-karat-sudha-bhtya-sukha-pradaya

vicitra-ratnaugha-vibhuitaya, premanam evadya harau vidhehi 17

 

su-nupura - fine anklebells; aranjita - reddish; pada-padma - lotus feet; karat - flowing; sudha - nectar; bhtya - to your servants; sukha-pradaya - to you who give joy; vicitra - wonderful; ratna-ogha - a multitude of jewels; vibhuitaya - to you who are adorned; premanam - love; eva - certainly; adya - today; harau - for Hari; vidhehi - You should endow.

 

"I offer my obeisances to you who bestow happiness to your servitors as you pour upon them the liquid nectar flowing from your reddish lotus feet, upon which charming anklebells ring. Obeisances unto you who are adorned by an abundance of gems. Please endow Me today with pure love for Sri Hari.

 

sri-rama govinda mukunda saure, sri-kna narayana vasudeva

ity adi-namamta-pana-matta-bhngadhipayakhila-duhkha-hantre 18

 

sri-rama - O splendid reservoir of pleasure!; govinda - O awarder of delight to the cows, the senses and the land!; mukunda - O giver of liberation!; saure - O hero!; sri-kna - O all-attractive!; nara-ayana - O shelter of mankind!; vasudeva - O all-pervading Lord, son of Vasudeva!; iti - thus; adi - headed by; nama-amta - nectarean names; pana - drinking; matta - intoxicated; bhnga - bee; adhipaya - unto the monarch; akhila - all; duhkha-hantre - unto the slayer of grief.

 

"`O Sri Rama! O Govinda! O Mukunda! O Sauri! O Sri Krishna! O Narayana! O Vasudeva!' I offer my obeisances unto you, Sri Siva, who are the monarch ruling over all the bee-like devotees who are mad to drink the nectar of these and other innumerable names of Hari, and who thus destroys all grief.

 

sri-naradadyaih satata sugopya-jijnasitayasu vara-pradaya

tebhyo harer bhakti-sukha-pradaya, sivaya sarvva-gurave namah 19

 

sri-narada-adyaih - by those headed by Narada Muni; satatam - always; su-gopya - very confidential; jijnasitaya - to you who are inquired of; asu - easily; vara-pradaya - to you who give boons; tebhya - to them; hare - of Lord Hari; bhakti-sukha-pradaya - to you who give the joy of devotional service; sivaya - to the auspicious; sarva-gurave - to the guru of all; namah - obeisances.

 

"I offer my respectful obeisances to you, Sri Siva, who are forever inquired of confidentially by Sri Narada and other great sages, who very easily bestow boons on them, who bestow the happiness of Hari-bhakti to those who seek boons of you, who thereby create auspiciousness and are thus the guru of everyone.

 

sri-gauri-netrotsava-mangalaya, tat-prana-nathaya rasa-pradaya

sada samutkantha-govinda-lila-gana-pravinaya namo 'stu tubhyam 20

 

sri-gauri-netra - for the eyes of Sri Gauri; utsava-mangalaya - to you who are an auspicious festival; tat-prana-nathaya - to the lord of Gauri's life breath; rasa-pradaya - to the giver of rasa; sada - always; samutkantha - with great longing; govinda-lila - of the pastimes of Govinda; gana-pravinaya - to the expert singer; nama - obeisances; astu - let there be; tubhyam - to you.

 

"I offer my obeisances to you who are a festival of auspiciousness for the eyes of Gauri, who are the lord of her life-energy, who bestow rasa and are expert in forever singing songs with eagerness of the pastimes of Govinda."

[yogesh]

that when people think in material terms such as becoming subserviant/servant i.e. serving some one, that persone is thought to be in low position but in spiritual terms that is a very high position.

 

So for the Supreme Lord to take on the role of servant is so amazing. As Lord Krsna states he becomes tied up by the ropes of love of his devotees. As the Lord took on the position of a message carrier for Yudishtier In the Mahabharat and many other instance.

 

So from a Vaishnava point of view If Lord Krsna / Lord Mahadev takes on the servant role it does not diminish their position.

 

So in the eyes of devotees If Lord Rama / Lord Krsna serves Lord Mahadev or Lord Mahadev serves Lord Krsna it does not take away or diminish their position.

 

But we who see with our material mundane little mind and cannot see this Greatness and start to argue amongst each other about the supremacy of the Lord which I find very sad.

[Guest guest]

Same old story doing its rounds again.

 

 

that when people think in material terms such as becoming subserviant/servant i.e. serving some one, that persone is thought to be in low position but in spiritual terms that is a very high position.

 

So for the Supreme Lord to take on the role of servant is so amazing. As Lord Krsna states he becomes tied up by the ropes of love of his devotees. As the Lord took on the position of a message carrier for Yudishtier In the Mahabharat and many other instance.

 

So from a Vaishnava point of view If Lord Krsna / Lord Mahadev takes on the servant role it does not diminish their position.

 

So in the eyes of devotees If Lord Rama / Lord Krsna serves Lord Mahadev or Lord Mahadev serves Lord Krsna it does not take away or diminish their position.

 

But we who see with our material mundane little mind and cannot see this Greatness and start to argue amongst each other about the supremacy of the Lord which I find very sad.

 

Since you are above such mundane limitations, I am sure you are ok with Shaivas seeing Krishna as the topmost devotee of Lord Shiva. I suppose you do not see this as limiting Krishna in anyway.

 

If this is true, then you are indeed an elevated soul and we lesser mortals are blessed to associate with you.

 

Om

[Shakti-Fan]

 

This remarkably exhibits that Gaudiyas are unable to see Lord Shiva as God and simply try to be nice to others by saying that Shiva is mysterious and is an expansion of Vishu and Vishnu tattva. Why not the other way round? eh..?

Regards,

 

Y.K.

"Why not the other way round? eh..?" Because Sri Sri Radha Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is their ista deva. Is your ista deva Siva Ji?

[Guest guest]

 

Same old story doing its rounds again.

Since you are above such mundane limitations, I am sure you are ok with Shaivas seeing Krishna as the topmost devotee of Lord Shiva. I suppose you do not see this as limiting Krishna in anyway.

If this is true, then you are indeed an elevated soul and we lesser mortals are blessed to associate with you.

Om

 

Exactly! Since being a servant doesn't limit, but only exalts, let the Gaudiyas be happy with Lord Krishna being the top most Shaiva as well!

[Guest guest]

 

"Why not the other way round? eh..?" Because Sri Sri Radha Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is their ista deva. Is your ista deva Siva Ji?

 

Well, then there is no end to the HKs creating and facing conflict in every society. If they insist on every other form of God only subserviant to the Lord Krishna form, and can't accept any other positions. Suppose my ishta devata is Shiva and my friend is HK - I will insist that Shiva is the Supreme 'personality of God-head' and he will insist that Krishna is. And we will never come to a compromise, but be at loggerheads.

I think Hinduism beautifully allows, each one to follow his ishta deva, without getting into the hassle of putting other's ishta devta in a position lower. Everyone accepts his love and attachment to his isht-devta, and its ok. There is no fight. Nobody's getting into subserviant, higher lower, positioning agendas. Everyone's happy worshipping his form of deity. Peace and love

[Guest guest]

 

And below, we can read about Lord Gauranga's mood toward Lord Shiva...

Beautiful!! Thanks for this! Where was this taken from?

 

I can also show this to my Prabhupada disciple friend who believes celebrating Shivratri is "offensive" and Prabhupada never allowed to celebrate Shivratri and that any Iskcon temple celebrating Shivratri is a result of "kaliyuga"!

[Guest guest]

 

Well, many HKs believe Shiva is meditating on Krishna chanting Hare Krishna! ;-) What about the Dwapara Yuga? Did you know the legend of Lord Shiva granting Sudarshana Chakra to Lord Vishnu who used to worship him with a thousand lotus petals everyday? One day, due to Shiva's maya, one lotus was missing, so Vishnu plucked out his own eye and offered on the Shivalinga. Lord Shiva pleased with this granted him the formidable Sudarshana Chakra - the most devastating weapon, that Hari / Krishna bears. This can be found in the Shiva Mahapurana.

This account should be discarded since mahanarayana upanishad says that Sri Vishnu possesses the Sudarshana since eternity.

 

Interestingly a similar story can be found regarding Sri Rama worshipping Durga by offering an eye in some versions of ramayana. These accounts are most likely to be interpolations.

[Guest guest]

 

This account should be discarded since mahanarayana upanishad says that Sri Vishnu possesses the Sudarshana since eternity.

This account cannot be discarded since it comes from the great Shiv Mahapurana, despite the strongest HK urge to claim it as worthless/tamasic etc. Shiva is eternal.

 

 

Interestingly a similar story can be found regarding Sri Rama worshipping Durga by offering an eye in some versions of ramayana. These accounts are most likely to be interpolations.

I don't remember Rama offering an eye to Durga, but he surely worshipped Shakti. If you read carefully different sadhna endeavors carried out by Lord Rama in his lifetime starting from Balya kand in Shri Valmiki Ramayana, his association with sages like Shri Shri Vishwamitra. Rama was a kshatriya and Surya Vanshi. Surya Vanshis worshipped the Sun God and Lord Shiva. The use and study of all advanced spiritual weapons involved shakti sadhna. Durga is the epitome of what I would call Punjibhoot Shakti swaroopa. She represents all the combined energies and powers controlling the universes. You may read Devi Bhagvatam for more. By the way, what version of Ramayan had that story? We mostly read Shri Ramcharitmanas which is a valid and commonly popular version and the Valmiki Ramayana. Although there are many others.

[bija]

 

Beautiful!! Thanks for this! Where was this taken from? quote by yK

I got this from an article Gurudeva posted to his disciples in regards to worshipping on Shivaratri. I am not sure of the source...I can find out. It would be either Caitanya Bhagavata, Caitanya Mangala or some other early Gaudiya writing. I can't remember. It is essential for a Gaudiya not to make offence to Lord Shiva in any way.

 

Really yK, the devotee aspiring for higher realization and qualification, tries to see with higher vision. To develop harmony (in God everything can be harmonized). I have found you pleasant and have enjoyed talking with you. Actually...if you were a guest in my house I would offer you a big wholesome plate of Gauranga Prasadam (which I know you would love;)) and sit down and have a good old yarn. One's personal Ishta deva is a very personal affair and confidential subject matter. And usually it is not my nature to debate over this. If I have come across this way, please forgive me.

 

I find Hinduism to be a wonderful spirituality, in that it is accomodating to others of different thought. Without having to compromise one's own feelings of the heart. So ofcourse there would be desire in me to learn from others of their chosen path, ie Shaivism etc. But time is short and Gaudiya Vaishnavism in it's deeper understandings is a full time pursuit. So to have the oppurtunity to talk with people like you is a real treat. A great oppurtunity to learn more of Hindu thought.

 

Sometimes we can have negative encounters with people of other faith, and this can condition our thought processes of that particular tradition in general. This is also on the mental platform. I am beginning to learn that generalizing is not always healthy, and to see and observe this conditioning in my own thought process. By observing this mental platform we can begin to be set free from it.

 

Thanks for allowing me to share Prabhu.

[Guest guest]

 

This account cannot be discarded since it comes from the great Shiv Mahapurana, despite the strongest HK urge to claim it as worthless/tamasic etc. Shiva is eternal.

 

First off, though sometimes all the eighteen puranas are termed as mahapuranas in a loose sense, technically only bhagavatam is mahapurana since only that possesses ten lakshanas (while others mostly have five or so).

 

Coming to the point: since the account of Sri Hari possessing the Sudarshana comes from veda it overrides any different accounts in any purana (including the bhagavatam if a contradiction is found there).

 

If you have still not got the clue this has nothing to with HK or tamasi etc. Any account in any smriti shastra is to be rejected if contradicted by the veda.

 

 

The use and study of all advanced spiritual weapons involved shakti sadhna. Durga is the epitome of what I would call Punjibhoot Shakti swaroopa. She represents all the combined energies and powers controlling the universes. You may read Devi Bhagvatam for more.

 

Devi bhagavatam is not considered among the smriti shastras. However, even in Devi bhagavatam we find in Canto 9 chapter 1 that Mula-prakriti Durga is a shakti of Krishna, that all the five forms of Goddess mentioned are different shaktis of Krishna, that devi maha-kali is black due to constant meditation on Sri Krishna etc.

 

 

We mostly read Shri Ramcharitmanas which is a valid and commonly popular version and the Valmiki Ramayana. Although there are many others.

 

Do you know that there are many versions of Valmiki ramayana floating around? Sripad Madhva considers only the mula ramayana as authentic.

[bija]

 

Beautiful!! Thanks for this! quote by yK

I am glad you enjoyed reading the article, that is why I posted it twice.

 

If read very closely (as with all early Gaudiya writings) one can begin to understand the mood of Lord Gauranga. His disposition was very humble, and he partook of the mood of servant. Onetime he visited some renunciants of a different philosophical understanding. Rather than sit with them, in a high position, he sat in the foot washing place. Very humble.

 

The renunciants were so amazed by his exemplary behaviour, that they became convinced that they were in the association of an exalted personality.

 

So, the ideal behaviour of a Gaudiya Vaisnava can be seen in Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu. This is the standard at which Gaudiya Vaisnavism can be judged. Not by the standard of us conditioned souls who are aspiring for His service.

 

If for some reason one is not prepared to accept Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the Supreme Person, at least he can be seen as a great saint and mystic. It is qualified by history that he was a great devotee, who inspired the awakening of Love in many hearts. If one is only able to see Mahaprabhu as a great personage and saint, and not God, he will take no offence to this, but be most pleased. For his nature is not to take any offences into consideration. In fact he asks his followers to show all respect to others...requiring nothing in return.

 

So he had the topmost, essential respect for Lord Shiva, who he considered to be the greatest servant and devotee of God. Lord Gauranga also taking the position of servant and devotee of God. This is also the mood of the Gaudiya tradition. To take the mood of servant and devotee. This is the highest aspiration.

 

 

Again, the story is a usual Gaudiya tale with - Shiva being subsurviant to Vishnu - did this and that.. only to please Vishnu, dependent on Vishnu etc. quote by yK

So in a deeper sense, this idea of subserviency is the highest aspiration. Not a point of contention. In higher philosophy and realization (God realization/God consciousness), each personality is aspiring for the position of servant. From our Gaudiya philosophical standpoint, this can also be seen. Lord Krsna Himself, also aspired for such a position, thus taking the form of Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu.

 

By meditation on such philosophy one can begin to understand that these points of apparent contention, regarding who is highest is not so relevant.

 

I hope this clears up some points regarding our different philosophical understandings and can bring us to closer harmony.

 

aspiring for service...

[yogesh]

 

Same old story doing its rounds again.

 

 

 

Since you are above such mundane limitations, I am sure you are ok with Shaivas seeing Krishna as the topmost devotee of Lord Shiva. I suppose you do not see this as limiting Krishna in anyway.

 

If this is true, then you are indeed an elevated soul and we lesser mortals are blessed to associate with you.

 

Om

 

As I mentioned that Lord Krsna became a messanger for the Pandavas so did his position become diminished??

 

So why not If Lord Mahadev meditates/thinks of Lord Krsna / Lord Rama He immediately becomes bound by the Love and why not take on the role as Devotee of Lord Mahadev.

 

All Glories to Lord Mahadev

 

All Glories to Lord Krsna

 

All Glories to dear servants of Lord Krsna

 

All Glories to Sirla Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

 

First off, though sometimes all the eighteen puranas are termed as mahapuranas in a loose sense, technically only bhagavatam is mahapurana since only that possesses ten lakshanas (while others mostly have five or so).

 

If you want to get technical, then no Purana demonstrates all the ten lakshanas including the Bhagavatam. When Wilson examined all the Puranas he concluded that the Vishnu Purana was the one that came anywhere close to the definition of a Purana.

 

The Mahapurana classification is not loose. It is a clear set of 18 Puranas - whatever their content may be today. However, contrary to popular opinion, the Shiva Purana is not one of the 18 Mahapuranas. It is actually the Vayu Purana which has a lot of Shaiva content that is part of this list. Some Purana lists explicitly say Vayu, which some others replace Vayu with "Shaiva Purana" or the purana which is Shaiva in nature and this has led to some confusion.

 

A bit of irony that Madhva a Vaishnava styled himself as an avatar of Vayu and the Vayu Purana is a Shaiva Purana.

 

 

Do you know that there are many versions of Valmiki ramayana floating around? Sripad Madhva considers only the mula ramayana as authentic.

 

Sripad Madhva said several other things as well including changing aham brahmasmi to aheyam brahmasmi so that he could interpret it in a dualistic way. Sripad Madhva and his followers are the only set of people who make such a claim about the Ramayana. Since there is no mula ramayana in existence and no one outside the Madhva set ever laid eyes on one, it would be fair to say the Valmiki Ramayana is authentic enough for all purposes.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

Even on the risk of digressing from the main point of previous post (regarding the incidence of Sudarshana) a few comments on this.

 

 

If you want to get technical, then no Purana demonstrates all the ten lakshanas including the Bhagavatam. When Wilson examined all the Puranas he concluded that the Vishnu Purana was the one that came anywhere close to the definition of a Purana.

 

The Mahapurana classification is not loose. It is a clear set of 18 Puranas - whatever their content may be today.

 

This is not true and Wilson cannot be considered any sort of authority on this. The ten subjects of a maha-purana are given in the second canto of srimad-bhagavatam (2.10). Considering the majority content of the various cantos of the Bhagavatam, the breakdown of the ten subjects would be as below:

1. Sarga Second and Third

2. Visarga Second, Third, Fourth

3. Vrtti Third, Seventh, Eleventh

4. Raksa Throughout

5. Manvantara Eighth

6. Vamsa Fourth, Ninth

7. Vamsanucarita Fourth, Ninth

8. Samstha Eleventh, Twelfth

9. Hetu Third, Eleventh

10. Apasraya Tenth

 

The other puranas contain mostly these five subjects:

 

Matsya Purana, 53.65:

 

sargasca pratisargasca vamso manvantarani ca

vamsyanucaritancaiva puranam pancalaksanam

 

"Creation, dissolution, genealogy, manvantaras and descriptions of the activities of famous kings, these are the five characteristics of a Purana."

 

as also given in the Amarkosha.

 

 

However, contrary to popular opinion, the Shiva Purana is not one of the 18 Mahapuranas. It is actually the Vayu Purana which has a lot of Shaiva content that is part of this list. Some Purana lists explicitly say Vayu, which some others replace Vayu with "Shaiva Purana" or the purana which is Shaiva in nature and this has led to some confusion.

 

This is interesting. All the lists that i have seen list the Shiva purana, and not the vayu purana (e.g. Srimad-Bhagavatam 12.13.4-9, Padma purana Uttara Khanda 236.18-21). Can you provide the references which list Vayu purana.

 

 

Sripad Madhva said several other things as well including changing aham brahmasmi to aheyam brahmasmi so that he could interpret it in a dualistic way.

 

The referred interpretation is not to show dualism which is not required given the context of Brihadaranyaka upanishad where this statement is made by Brahman Himself -- so the popular advaitic interpretation can be disregarded in any case. The statement with some context is thus: "brahma va idamagra asitah ... tadaa aatmaanam eva avet aham brahma asmi iti". The latter would mean something like "He knew His self only as I am Brahman, thus" if a direct interpretation is chosen which is strange and usage of 'aatmaanam' is completely superfluous.

 

 

Sripad Madhva and his followers are the only set of people who make such a claim about the Ramayana. Since there is no mula ramayana in existence and no one outside the Madhva set ever laid eyes on one, it would be fair to say the Valmiki Ramayana is authentic enough for all purposes.

 

Mula ramayana refers to the original ramayana as narrated by Narada to Sage valmiki and is referenced in the sadagamas. The point made was that there are a number of versions of valmiki ramayana (and a huge number of other versions of ramayana) and it is hard to distinguish the original from interpolations (e.g. there are references that the original ramayana contains something like 5 lakh verses). The initial observation was about the resemblance of the story in Shiva purana to the anecdote of Sri Rama offering an eye to Durga which i have read in many places (probably from Krittibas Ramayana) and that we cannot take these on face value.

[Guest guest]

 

I got this from an article Gurudeva posted to his disciples in regards to worshipping on Shivaratri. I am not sure of the source...I can find out. It would be either Caitanya Bhagavata, Caitanya Mangala or some other early Gaudiya writing. I can't remember. It is essential for a Gaudiya not to make offence to Lord Shiva in any way.

 

Really yK, the devotee aspiring for higher realization and qualification, tries to see with higher vision. To develop harmony (in God everything can be harmonized). I have found you pleasant and have enjoyed talking with you. Actually...if you were a guest in my house I would offer you a big wholesome plate of Gauranga Prasadam (which I know you would love;)) and sit down and have a good old yarn. One's personal Ishta deva is a very personal affair and confidential subject matter. And usually it is not my nature to debate over this. If I have come across this way, please forgive me.

 

I find Hinduism to be a wonderful spirituality, in that it is accomodating to others of different thought. Without having to compromise one's own feelings of the heart. So ofcourse there would be desire in me to learn from others of their chosen path, ie Shaivism etc. But time is short and Gaudiya Vaishnavism in it's deeper understandings is a full time pursuit. So to have the oppurtunity to talk with people like you is a real treat. A great oppurtunity to learn more of Hindu thought.

 

Sometimes we can have negative encounters with people of other faith, and this can condition our thought processes of that particular tradition in general. This is also on the mental platform. I am beginning to learn that generalizing is not always healthy, and to see and observe this conditioning in my own thought process. By observing this mental platform we can begin to be set free from it.

 

Thanks for allowing me to share Prabhu.

 

Dear Bija,

 

Thanks for your niceword and good hearted feelings. Really strict sampradaya followers line of action that condemns others never really attracted me. Pure bhakti i all encompassing and gets an edge way above differences. I would love to have your Shri Gauranga Prassadam some day. Who could deny that!;-)

Somewhere I see the principles of advaita and dvaita a well as personalism and impersonaism merging into the body of that adi Purusha!!! Whom Gaudiyas may insist as 'Krsna only' and I may perceive as Krsna, or Narayana, or Shiva! But we decide to pay too much attention to the differences at times, which is natural because of our attachement.

Hope you are well.

Love,

yk

[Guest guest]

 

As I mentioned that Lord Krsna became a messanger for the Pandavas so did his position become diminished??

 

So why not If Lord Mahadev meditates/thinks of Lord Krsna / Lord Rama He immediately becomes bound by the Love and why not take on the role as Devotee of Lord Mahadev.

 

All Glories to Lord Mahadev

 

All Glories to Lord Krsna

 

All Glories to dear servants of Lord Krsna

 

All Glories to Sirla Prabhupada

That's perfectly alright. NO problem with that - Love, devotion for bhakta etc, but what Guest abc is pointing to is, why does it hav to be only one way?? That's our point! Why don't you accept Krsna worshipping Mahadeva doing rigorous penances? It certanely doesn't dimish his glory at all!

[Guest guest]

 

I am glad you enjoyed reading the article, that is why I posted it twice.

 

If read very closely (as with all early Gaudiya writings) one can begin to understand the mood of Lord Gauranga. His disposition was very humble, and he partook of the mood of servant. Onetime he visited some renunciants of a different philosophical understanding. Rather than sit with them, in a high position, he sat in the foot washing place. Very humble.

 

The renunciants were so amazed by his exemplary behaviour, that they became convinced that they were in the association of an exalted personality.

 

So, the ideal behaviour of a Gaudiya Vaisnava can be seen in Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu. This is the standard at which Gaudiya Vaisnavism can be judged. Not by the standard of us conditioned souls who are aspiring for His service.

 

If for some reason one is not prepared to accept Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the Supreme Person, at least he can be seen as a great saint and mystic. It is qualified by history that he was a great devotee, who inspired the awakening of Love in many hearts. If one is only able to see Mahaprabhu as a great personage and saint, and not God, he will take no offence to this, but be most pleased. For his nature is not to take any offences into consideration. In fact he asks his followers to show all respect to others...requiring nothing in return.

 

So he had the topmost, essential respect for Lord Shiva, who he considered to be the greatest servant and devotee of God. Lord Gauranga also taking the position of servant and devotee of God. This is also the mood of the Gaudiya tradition. To take the mood of servant and devotee. This is the highest aspiration.

 

 

So in a deeper sense, this idea of subserviency is the highest aspiration. Not a point of contention. In higher philosophy and realization (God realization/God consciousness), each personality is aspiring for the position of servant. From our Gaudiya philosophical standpoint, this can also be seen. Lord Krsna Himself, also aspired for such a position, thus taking the form of Lord Gauranga Mahaprabhu.

 

By meditation on such philosophy one can begin to understand that these points of apparent contention, regarding who is highest is not so relevant.

 

I hope this clears up some points regarding our different philosophical understandings and can bring us to closer harmony.

 

aspiring for service...

 

Thank you for your 'real Gaudiya' views Bija. I agree on the higher standpoints in Shri Chaitanya's elevated moods.

I risk codemnation by saying this here, but I find a good difference in what I hear from SP's disciples on Lord Shiva and what Lord Gauranga's mood reflects. Similarly, I never came across Shiva is a demiGod from Lord Krishna. And yes, I woud like to know the source of Lord Chaitanya's mood for Lord Shiva. Beautiful indeed! Thank you again.

Yogkriya

[Beggar]

 

I risk codemnation by saying this here, but I find a good difference in what I hear from SP's disciples on Lord Shiva and what Lord Gauranga's mood reflects.

Srila Prabhupada was outwardly opposing all forms of Shavism because he could see the prevalence of Sankarcarya's Mayavada philosophy in the West and how many of his neophyte followers had the potential to gravitate back towards impersonalism. This is an example of preaching for time, place and circumstances. I'm sure that in another time, place and circumstance such as right now he would not object to us delving into what the previous acaryas have explained about Lord Siva.