Who does Lord Shiva meditate upon?

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada was outwardly opposing all forms of Shavism because he could see the prevalence of Sankarcarya's Mayavada philosophy in the West and how many of his neophyte followers had the potential to gravitate back towards impersonalism. This is an example of preaching for time, place and circumstances. I'm sure that in another time, place and circumstance such as right now he would not object to us delving into what the previous acaryas have explained about Lord Siva.

Understand Beggar.

But there was another reaction of this preaching too. Thus was reared a whole race of bhaktas who take pride in putting down Lord Shiva, advaita, yoga and just about everything else, quoting SP from some juncture. I have even found SP meaning something different in essence than was was preached and told me by the followers.

[bija]

 

I agree on the higher standpoints in Shri Chaitanya's elevated moods.

I risk codemnation by saying this here, but I find a good difference in what I hear from SP's disciples on Lord Shiva and what Lord Gauranga's mood reflects. quote by yK

I think yK each devotee has a particular mood in regards to such matters. And as beggar says there was preaching for time, place, and circumstance.

 

For example last year I was visited by a follower of Srila Prabhupada (a grand-disciple). We had some disagreement in discussion in regards to a deity of Ganesha I have in my house. She was of the opinion that we should not have this deity in our homes. Her mood was focused fully on Krsna. Which I understand and appreciate. But there is Gaudiya literature which explains Ganesha can be worshipped for removal of obstacles in devotional service. This is mentioned in Srila Prabhupada's commentary of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindu (Nectar of Devotion). This particular devotee had read quotes from Srila Prabhupada conversations not to have Ganesha deity for worship. And on the other hand I had read Srila Prabhupada's commentary of Srila Rupa Goswami's words (in Nectar of Devotion) saying that Ganesha can be worshipped.

 

It comes down to the particular internal mood really. In the great literature Sri Caitanya-Bhagavata there is some real nice verses of an ecstatic kirtana party with Lord Gauranga. Shiva, Ganesha and others are joining in this kirtana with Lord Gauranga. I really enjoy these verses, so when I offer incense to the part of my altar where Lord Shiva and Lord Ganesha reside I am meditating internally on these pastimes. This is in harmony with my Gaudiya tradition and internal mood.

 

Maybe some other Gaudiya devotee here at this forum, may like to explain the different forms of Lord Shiva in Gaudiya understanding. As mentioned in a previous post Sri Advaita Acarya (most worshipable for us) is considered a dual incarnation of Sada Shiva and Mahavishnu. Daily we chant Sri Advaita Acarya's holy name in the glorious Panca-Tattva Mantra. This science of Sri Advaita Prabhu is also congruent with what I have mentioned in my earlier post, in regards to aspiration for becoming a servant. In Sri Advaita Acarya's incarnation this mood for aspiration to be a servant is also strongly found and prominent. Bringing harmony with the overall Gaudiya mood of servitude. The esoteric science of Sri Advaita Prabhu can be studied here:Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila Chapter Six

 

Sria Advaita Acarya (even though glorious) describes himself as a servant of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So once again this answers the initial question of this thread from a Gaudiya understanding. You see Prabhu, my mood is to see Sri Gauranga as the Supreme Person non-different to Sri Krsna. Ofcourse this is a personal choice that is internalized within the heart. An ever unfolding meditation.

 

So the philosophy is very deep and very broad and not so black and white. And the mood of each devotee is unique. So this variety can be appreciated and harmonized at a deeper level with the nature of aspiration for servitude.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Understand Beggar.

But there was another reaction of this preaching too. Thus was reared a whole race of bhaktas who take pride in putting down Lord Shiva, advaita, yoga and just about everything else, quoting SP from some juncture. I have even found SP meaning something different in essence than was was preached and told me by the followers.

 

Srila Prabhupada was well aware of the casualty ratio. In never once offending Lord Siva, Srila Prabhupada left a wake of those who would.

 

And also on the fringes of that wake, a few who benefitted by giving up all else, including Siva for the moment, and focusing on the basic ABC's Srila Prabhupada was trying to teach about Krishna Bhakti.

 

They are the ones today who will be granted the ability to understand Lord Siva's nectarean relationship with Krsna's Bhaktas while no longer in a risky position of being diverted into Worship of Lord Shiva in an impersonal demigod mood. And will be glorifying him in connection with Sri Krsna's lila, and its all good then.

 

Hare Krsna

[bija]

In this transcendental devotional science of Gaudiya Philosophy everything revolves around servitude. Even the superiors of Krsna, such as mother Yashoda and Nanda Maharaja, desire this mood of service.

 

So similtaneously for the Gaudiya devotee, Sri Caitanya is worshipped as the supreme, and as devotee of Krsna. These themes pervade all the literature really. Where every personage is aspiring for servitude. Even Krsna desiring to taste sweetness takes the form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sure, there is a supreme who is the worshipable object (Krsna) but each personage aspires for servitude. Bound by love.

 

This esoteric science of servitude is so nicely explained in this chapter of Caitanya-Caritamrta: Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila Chapter Six

 

A hint of the nature of this serving mood is found in the following verses:

Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila Chapter Six verses 40-43:

 

Thinking "He (Sri Advaita Acarya) is a disciple of Sri Madhavendra Puri," Lord Caitanya obeys Him, respecting Him as His spiritual master.

To maintain the proper etiquette for the principles of religion, Lord Caitanya bows down at the lotus feet of Sri Advaita Acarya with reverential prayers and devotion.

Sri Advaita Acarya, however, considers Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu His master, and He thinks of Himself as a servant of Lord Caitanya.

He forgets Himself in the joy of that conception and teaches all living entities, "You are servants of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

I guess what I am trying to bring about Prabhu (guest yK) in posting these thoughts, is not so much to refute your perception that Lord Shiva is the supreme. But to bring clearer elaboration on the Gaudiya philosophical understanding of Lord Shiva, in relation to the concepts of servitude.

 

By elaborating on this theme of servitude within the Gaudiya tradition, we can begin to understand more the mind of the Gaudiya devotee. And how Lord Shiva has come to play a part in this particular philosophical viewpoint.

 

And possibly from this understanding of why Gaudiya's think the way they do in regards to servitude, apparent contradictions in philosophical viewpoints may be harmonized, at least to some degree.

 

Thank you for allowing me to share, as this is an aid for me in further personal reading and study.

 

All glories to the divine servitors!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Honestly, this is fun preliminary intellectual work, but before a person has released their mixed devotional tactics and become an unalloyed servant themselves, the realization of a Supreme mood of service amongst the eternally blissful pure servants of the Lord is but a pipe dream. And I know how fond both Siva's and Krsna's devotees are of this.

 

Perhaps a stronger emphasis on becoming a selfless servant within our varna and ashram obligations would quicken the possibility that someday we will actually internally renounce into unalloyed service ourselves, and all of the various moods of servitude will be naturally revealed through experience instead of informed speculation.

 

Hare Krsna

[bija]

 

Honestly, this is fun preliminary intellectual work, but before a person has released their mixed devotional tactics and become an unalloyed servant themselves, the realization of a Supreme mood of service amongst the eternally blissful pure servants of the Lord is but a pipe dream. And I know how fond both Siva's and Krsna's devotees are of this.

 

Perhaps a stronger emphasis on becoming a selfless servant within our varna and ashram obligations would quicken the possibility that someday we will actually internally renounce into unalloyed service ourselves, and all of the various moods of servitude will be naturally revealed through experience instead of informed speculation.quote by Bhakti Devarsi.

Reading and studying the glories of the divine servitors is enjoyable, and a healthy spiritual practice. And sharing about them is also fun. I feel Their glories are a 'reality' to be held high above our heads, not just as 'a pipedream of my speculation'. I agree with your quote Bhakti Devarsi. And I can understand you posting such comments considering your special interest in Varnashrama Dharma.

 

I guess at this level of my realization there is dependency upon faith in scripture. I do not think that sharing what one is understanding from his personal reading, is speculating as such. But sure, maybe because I am not realized to a high degree, my understandings may be speculation. I will let you be the judge of that.

 

Please forgive me if it appears that I am trying to portay myself in a high position, as being one realized in the nature of the service of these Divine Personalities. Prabhu, I desire my heart to contain nothing of that intention and to keep it simple. I am sorry you possibly perceived such things. Faith comes by reading literature such as Caitanya-caritamrta, and it grows by sharing about it. That is all.

 

My desires in discussing the divine service of our Lords, was an attempt to bring a focal point of dialogue between Yoga Kriya Prabhu and myself. This was the intention.

 

All glories to the divine servitors!

[bija]

 

Thanks for your niceword and good hearted feelings. Really strict sampradaya followers line of action that condemns others never really attracted me. Pure bhakti is all encompassing and gets an edge way above differences. I would love to have your Shri Gauranga Prassadam some day. Who could deny that!

Somewhere I see the principles of advaita and dvaita a well as personalism and impersonaism merging into the body of that adi Purusha!!! Whom Gaudiyas may insist as 'Krsna only' and I may perceive as Krsna, or Narayana, or Shiva! But we decide to pay too much attention to the differences at times, which is natural because of our attachement. quote by yK

I feel similar Prabhu, in regards to your comment about not being attracted by the tendency to condemn others standards. Personally I find this a challenge as I adhere to a type of orthodoxy (that old universalist in me is not going to die easily-at least I hope not). On the one hand the acarya's speak out against opposing views, and on the other hand they understand the need for different standards due to one's qualification. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Sri Krsna Samhita speaks a little about this condemning nature in some, who do not understand the need for each persons station and standards. He explains that there are two types of devotees...Swanlike...and Asslike(donkey:)). He says both types can be found in the neophyte platform. The Asslike mentality can be seen to have caused so much trouble in the world over the years. To such an extent that sometimes some communities do not even perceive others as human beings. This is sectarianism in the extreme. So I try to keep all this in mind.

 

I usually leave it up to other devotees to present opposing views. I do not feel qualified in my understandings to take such a role. Also I have had a fair time dealing with some radical 'born again' christians over the years. You know...some of these people think this Hare Krsna thing is fairly devlish. So this has further turned me off from such approaches. We may have similar feelings in this regard.

 

What I find off-putting in religion, is how the religious bent types can place themselves on the high platform. As devotees we are supposed to be meek and humble, but how often do we fall into this trap. I know this illusion presents itself in me quite often, if I am to be self-honest and transparent.

 

As we enter more and more the mode of goodness, this thinking oneself as greater than others is the big stumbling block. YogaKriya Prabhu, at times my faith in religion has been sorely tested, as I have perceived this failing in myself and other religionists around me. I believe the religious type can be potentially the most dangerous of creatures. If he does not pass over this stumbling block.

 

I think that bhakti is the cutting edge also, and here we can find our common ground. Oh...and by the way...it sounds as if you have already received my plate of Gauranga prasadam. Pretty tasty!

 

Sometimes we do spend so much energy focusing on differences...maybe the real art is to understand difference is an eternal principle. But there is also an eternal principle of unity as well.

 

Thanks for tolerating me getting a bit intellectual in my last few posts (so nicely pointed out by Bhakti Devarsi Prabhu:cool:). It is just a great learning curve for me...having a chance to discuss, learn and grow. My desires are to live in a harmonious world where people of different understanding can live together. So it is kind of cool talking with a...Yoga Kriya.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Reading and studying the glories of the divine servitors is enjoyable, and a healthy spiritual practice. And sharing about them is also fun. I feel Their glories are a 'reality' to be held high above our heads, not just as 'a pipedream of my speculation'. I agree with your quote Bhakti Devarsi. And I can understand you posting such comments considering your special interest in Varnashrama Dharma.

 

I guess at this level of my realization there is dependency upon faith in scripture. I do not think that sharing what one is understanding from his personal reading, is speculating as such. But sure, maybe because I am not realized to a high degree, my understandings may be speculation. I will let you be the judge of that.

 

Please forgive me if it appears that I am trying to portay myself in a high position, as being one realized in the nature of the service of these Divine Personalities. Prabhu, I desire my heart to contain nothing of that intention and to keep it simple. I am sorry you possibly perceived such things. Faith comes by reading literature such as Caitanya-caritamrta, and it grows by sharing about it. That is all.

 

My desires in discussing the divine service of our Lords, was an attempt to bring a focal point of dialogue between Yoga Kriya Prabhu and myself. This was the intention.

 

All glories to the divine servitors!

 

I hear you, sorry if I was a little ornery, it is possible for an elevated soul to simply read and receive the proper understandings of what is between the lines directly into their mind by the grace of Guru. Even something as inconceivable as a Supremely perfect mood, as opposed to less nectarean moods.

 

I once delved into such at the prompting of a big big Sahajya, and I soon realized it was inconceivable even if I did get a glimpse. I soon realized that for such mediations to have any lasting value, it would best be something to focus on continually. As in when I am actually retired from any material life in mixed devotion, and I could fit it into my private meditations when I am not preaching and pushing the Sankirtana movement.

 

I like to honor the impetus to attend to such wonderful lofty endeavors, by suggesting the venue by which such endeavors will bear the most lasting fruits, and I have come to see for myself the universality of the injunctions to take things one step at a time if you are approaching as nitya-baddha with deep conditioning.

 

If I sound like a big brother, that is ok. As long as I am not being an unsympathetic and condescendinb big brother. I hope my care shows through, especially to the more mature devotees in this Cyber sanga.

 

Please forgive me if I pricked you.

 

All glories to the assembled Vaisnavas.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[bija]

No worries Big Bro'. I am possibly to easily pricked(tuned up sensitivities).

Actually, I just finished re-reading Caitanya-caritamrita Adi-lila Chapter Six last night before I took rest. If you have not read this in a while I really recommend it. I am probably a bit enthusiastic but...it is so beautiful.

 

To have my old copies of Sri Caitanya-caritamrita just waiting to be delved into as years go by brings much purpose, hope and joy within. These books with commentaries are hidden treasure.

 

I think this prominence of serving mood, as explained clearly in this sixth chapter is a point where others outside of our Gaudiya tradition may understand the tradition itself better. And in particular why it is that Lord Shiva is considered a most elevated servant in our tradition. Why we would answer the original question of this thread..'who does Lord Shiva meditate upon?'...as Lord GauraKrsna. And why GauraKrsna? Because he is the Lord of Love...and these serving moods are inspired by such love (beauty and charm).

[rui barreira]

I really think that lord Shiva, meditates in himself, dont we all?

[Chaitanya]

The RaamaCharitaMaanas states:

Maha-mantra joi japata Maheshu, Kaashi mukta hetu upadeshu

and;

Santata japata Shambhu Avinaashi, Shiv Bhagvaan gyaan guna raashi

 

Its from Baalkaand. Tulsidaas Gosvami says that Shiv is reciting the maha taaraka mantra 'raam'.

[Guest guest]

 

I really think that lord Shiva, meditates in himself, dont we all?

Yes since everything is in Shiva.

[Guest guest]

It is so interesting to see us come together in discussions such as these. Two sides, each professing their views in acordance to the teachings they have encountered that have led them to spiritual advancement, each so willing to defend their own tradition. We should really see how great this is! The Lord is certainly pleased when his devotees discuss anything relating to Him!

 

However the answer to the question of who Shiva meditates on is quite clear, he meditates on the Supreme Lord! Shiva is the most exalted devotee of the Lord, situated in the transendental plane; and thus he meditates in condition of samadhi (the total asorbtion in the Absolute Truth). Is the Absolute Truth Brahman? Yes, but that is only a partial realization! God is everything, and thus must possesses all that we have. The logical conclusion is that God MUST possess a personal form; and he does, infact he has many forms, an unlimited number of forms. After all this is God we are talking about!

How can anyone deny that the Bhagavan of the Bhagavad Gita is Krishna! Anyone who denies this fact has simply been misinformed! Even the greatest Impersonalist, Adi Shankara, who is widely accepted to be an incarnation of Shiva, and who preached the truth of Brahman, admitted is his own words that Krsna exists beyond material creation! He accepts that Krishna, and Krishna alone is the Supreme Personality of God! In fact he writes:

 

bhaja govindam bhaja govindam

bhaja govindam mudha-mate

samprapte sannihite kale

na hi na hi raksati dukrn-karane

 

And Srila Prabhupada perfectly translates: "You intellectual fools, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda. Your grammatical knowledge and word jugglery will not save you at the time of death."

 

What greater truth is there?! What truth is more Absolute!?

 

One thing to consider: when we see the image of Shiva, he is in a state of samadhi, he is in a state of bliss. How can one experience a state of bliss, which is the ultimate satisfaction of the soul, without love for the Supreme and without realizing the transendental love of the Supreme?! Shiva is in a perpetual state of bliss because he HAS become absorbed in the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna!!

 

Haribol!

[Guest guest]

lol! This will never get solved!! Well done.

Om Namah Shivaya!

 

It is so interesting to see us come together in discussions such as these. Two sides, each professing their views in acordance to the teachings they have encountered that have led them to spiritual advancement, each so willing to defend their own tradition. We should really see how great this is! The Lord is certainly pleased when his devotees discuss anything relating to Him!

 

However the answer to the question of who Shiva meditates on is quite clear, he meditates on the Supreme Lord! Shiva is the most exalted devotee of the Lord, situated in the transendental plane; and thus he meditates in condition of samadhi (the total asorbtion in the Absolute Truth). Is the Absolute Truth Brahman? Yes, but that is only a partial realization! God is everything, and thus must possesses all that we have. The logical conclusion is that God MUST possess a personal form; and he does, infact he has many forms, an unlimited number of forms. After all this is God we are talking about!

How can anyone deny that the Bhagavan of the Bhagavad Gita is Krishna! Anyone who denies this fact has simply been misinformed! Even the greatest Impersonalist, Adi Shankara, who is widely accepted to be an incarnation of Shiva, and who preached the truth of Brahman, admitted is his own words that Krsna exists beyond material creation! He accepts that Krishna, and Krishna alone is the Supreme Personality of God! In fact he writes:

 

bhaja govindam bhaja govindam

bhaja govindam mudha-mate

samprapte sannihite kale

na hi na hi raksati dukrn-karane

 

And Srila Prabhupada perfectly translates: "You intellectual fools, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda. Your grammatical knowledge and word jugglery will not save you at the time of death."

 

What greater truth is there?! What truth is more Absolute!?

 

One thing to consider: when we see the image of Shiva, he is in a state of samadhi, he is in a state of bliss. How can one experience a state of bliss, which is the ultimate satisfaction of the soul, without love for the Supreme and without realizing the transendental love of the Supreme?! Shiva is in a perpetual state of bliss because he HAS become absorbed in the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna!!

 

Haribol!

[harishkumar09]

According to Madhva the higer souls are able to comprehend even more qualities of Vishnu and they meditate on these qualities that we cannot even comprehend.