Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[bhaktachris]

 

...........the only realistic way is for us to follow Mahaprabhu's instruction to tell everyone we meet, everyone we speak to about Krsna. ................. DVD is there in Prabhupada's books and it is good service to point it out. ....................... So DVD is external but it is a channel to help the masses become part of an extended Krsna Conscious society from generation to generation.

 

Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

 

those of us who have heard from Srila Prabhuapda have had the Acharya come, he has told us that this is required, now it is up to us to implement it, at home with our family. while also chanting and dancing.

 

 

required

 

 

adjective

1. Incapable of being dispensed with: essential, indispensable, necessary, needful, requisite. See important/unimportant, necessary/unnecessary.
   
2. Imposed on one by authority, command, or convention: compulsory, imperative, mandatory, necessary, obligatory,

[Beggar]

 

 

those of us who have heard from Srila Prabhuapda have had the Acharya come, he has told us that this is required, now it is up to us to implement it, at home with our family. while also chanting and dancing.

 

Well its not going to implemented in my family without force. My family members and associates like to chant and dance at the Sunday Feast and act like regular members of Western society during the remainder of the week. It's been going on like this for twenty years. Families are being dominated by "New Age" devotee women. If you put your foot down you end up arrested for domestic violence. Then you are politically re-educated through mainstream psychology. Not a pretty picture!

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Satsvarupa: When Ramananda Raya brought Varnasrama up, Lord Caitanya said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupada: He did not say not possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

Satsvarupa: But don't we do that also?

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krsna consciousness in everything. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Niskincana. But we are not going to be niskincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the world. That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane.

Hari-Sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

 

those of us who have heard from Srila Prabhuapda have had the Acharya come, he has told us that this is required, now it is up to us to implement it, at home with our family. while also chanting and dancing.

 

 

 

 

'WELL POSTED', Bk Chris.

 

 

You should be ashamed to call yourself Prabhupadanuga, Begger, Your aversion and unwillingness shows in the repeating of weak aguements against introduction of DVD now.

 

If your not prabhupadanuga then you can say as you like, of course you 'can' say any time. Every one is free! As long as it is in such a negative vene, I will just ignor it next time if you are not for us Gaudiya's.

 

But I only agree you can say outside of Gaudiya from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur with 'NO" comment from me. Otherwise you please excuse me, but I must protest.

 

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

Can someone define prabhupadanuga for me? Are you no longer rupanuga? I mean no offense, I just don't know how to take that.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Well its not going to implemented in my family without force. My family members and associates like to chant and dance at the Sunday Feast and act like regular members of Western society during the remainder of the week. It's been going on like this for twenty years. Families are being dominated by "New Age" devotee women. If you put your foot down you end up arrested for domestic violence. Then you are politically re-educated through mainstream psychology. Not a pretty picture!

 

 

Yes, this is an ugly picture, but it can be saved with redirecting free will. But I know the responce and I aqueous and say that for those types discribed here, DVD will only come through a type of armagedon(collapse of society as we know it) or fully funded. I hope for you and yours sake it is fully funded.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Can someone define prabhupadanuga for me? Are you no longer rupanuga? I mean no offense, I just don't know how to take that.

 

What do I know of Rupanuga? I only know Srila Prabhupada because I'm a Western animal that has been introduced to Vaisnava through Prabhupada. I only try to know what my Guru will allow me to. If He says about Srila Rupanuga and I do not understand, then? I only can say as my Prabhupada says on this subject, DVD. I do not know Rupanuga, I am only Prabhupada's dog and not aloud out.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

What do I know of Rupanuga? I only know Srila Prabhupada because I'm a Western animal that has been introduced to Vaisnava through Prabhupada. I only try to know what my Guru will allow me to. If He says about Srila Rupanuga and I do not understand, then? I only can say as my Prabhupada says on this subject, DVD. I do not know Rupanuga, I am only Prabhupada's dog and not aloud out.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

 

o k

[Beggar]

 

What do I know of Rupanuga? I only know Srila Prabhupada because I'm a Western animal that has been introduced to Vaisnava through Prabhupada. I only try to know what my Guru will allow me to. If He says about Srila Rupanuga and I do not understand, then? I only can say as my Prabhupada says on this subject, DVD. I do not know Rupanuga, I am only Prabhupada's dog and not aloud out.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

 

But the dogs of the dogs are really dogs of Srila Rupa Goswami. So to really be Prabhupada's dog one must become a Rupanuga. If your clueless on the subject then try to get some help. Not from someone who just intellectually knows the subject but rather one who has dived deep into it's essence.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

But the dogs of the dogs are really dogs of Srila Rupa Goswami. So to really be Prabhupada's dog one must become a Rupanuga. If your clueless on the subject then try to get some help. Not from someone who just intellectually knows the subject but rather one who has dived deep into it's essence.

 

You know Beggar, you and CB probably have more in common in real life then you imagine. That is why you like to go jab for jab, but the important thing is not to forget to honor where you connect.

 

If one is Prabhupada's dog, you can bet your farm on the fact that is qualification enough to be considered a potential Rupanuga. One must be a Prabhupadanuga before a Rupanuga. Here allow, a devotee 100 times more knowledgable than both of us explain this to you.

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Naryana Maharaj

 

http://www.vnn.org/world/WD0411/WD05-8752.html

 

 

There is a difference between rupanuga [*Endnote 1] and raganuga [*Endnote 2]. Those who are in this world and serve Sri Sri Radha-Krsna on the path of raga (loving attachment), following in the footsteps of the ragatmika-bhaktas who are described by Srila Rupa Gosvami in Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and Sri Ujjvala-nilamani, all are raganuga.

 

This applies to those devotees who have some greed for vraja-bhakti and are actually following the process to attain it. Still, it may be that they are not rupanuga, but raganuga. Sri Jayadeva Gosvami was not rupanuga, but raganuga. Sri Bilvamangala Thakura was truly raganuga, but not rupanuga. Sri Svarupa Damodara and Sri Raya Ramananda were not rupanuga, although they were in the intimate association of Srila Rupa Gosvami. They are Lalita devi and Visakha devi themselves, so they are in a different category of eternal associates of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. They are not rupanuga.

 

"Those who follow Srila Rupa Gosvami - Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and are under the guidance of the cowherd friends of Krsna (sakhas), like Subala, Sridama and all others, and who want to serve Lord Krsna like the sakhas will not be called rupanuga. They will be called raganuga.

 

Lalita and Visakha and Yasoda-maiya are neither raganuga nor rupanuga. They are not anuga, followers. Those who are siddha, perfect, liberated associates, and are serving Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana are called ragatmika [*Endnote 3]. Those who want to serve Lord Krsna like them are called sadhakas (practitioners). Thus following raga-marga (the path of raga) they are raganuga. If one follows this path, inwardly mediating, How can I serve Lord Krsna like Mother Yasoda or Nanda Baba? He will be called raganuga, not rupanuga. Srila Rupa Gosvami has explained the glory of all these relationships in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Still, they will not be called rupanuga.

 

Those who are truly raganuga and follow the manner and mood in which Sri Rupa Manjari serves Radha and Krsna? Those who, in their constitutional form, are in the same mood as Sri Rupa Manjari, and who are in the same mood and perform the same devotional activities as Srila Rupa Gosvami at the time of practice? Only they are called rupanuga.

 

 

 

First we become anuga of Srila Prabhupada (ACBSP), or our chosen Gurudev.

 

If he is actually a Rupanuga, then we may get to that point too if we follow his instructions.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Of course Srila Prabhupada says this.

 

3. "We Gaudiya Vaisnavas are known as Rupanuga. Rupanuga means the followers of Rupa Gosvami. Why should we become followers of Rupa Gosvami? Because sri-caitanya-mano 'bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale. He wanted to establish the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2, Hyderabad, April 13, 1975)

 

4. Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami are the most exalted servitors of Srimati Radharani and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who adhere to their service are known as rupanuga devotees. (Mad.8.246 Purp.)

 

So we always need to look at the general and specific of any label.

 

The point for a NEW ASPIRANT is that without becoming a follower of the most recent acharya, Srila Prabhupada, one cannot be considered a follow of a past acharya in his line, Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Not the other way around. But that is what lashing out in anger does, it blinds us from these simple truths. (Still happens to me once or twice a day, GRRR).

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

But that is what lashing out in anger does, it blinds us from these simple truths.

What are you referring to here?

[bhaktatraveler]

 

But the dogs of the dogs are really dogs of Srila Rupa Goswami. So to really be Prabhupada's dog one must become a Rupanuga. If your clueless on the subject then try to get some help. Not from someone who just intellectually knows the subject but rather one who has dived deep into it's essence.

 

 

So as Srila Prabhupada is my current example/connection and leader in this matter, then I will do as He says. It must be that I'm just not ready for more than acting in DVD as an enthusiastic participant. Reading Prabhupada's books and acting on content as much as possible.

 

Rupanuga realization, after life times. DVD is all for me and others now. First practice, then the purfection. Vaisnava is not so easy.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

I only asked about prabhupadanuga because I haven't heard the acharya used with 'anuga' by other maths. Not all Srila Swami Maharaj disciples refer to it like that either, so I just wanted clarification. Of course the parampara starts with your Gurudeva, but in SCSMath it is taught we are in the Rupanuga Sampradaya, never "Sridharnuga" or "Govindanuga". Just different semantics I guess.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I only asked about prabhupadanuga because I haven't heard the acharya used with 'anuga' by other maths. Not all Srila Swami Maharaj disciples refer to it like that either, so I just wanted clarification. Of course the parampara starts with your Gurudeva, but in SCSMath it is taught we are in the Rupanuga Sampradaya, never "Sridharnuga" or "Govindanuga". Just different semantics I guess.

 

I think semantics too, same same. Useing anuga as suffex is new to post samadhi of Srila Prabhupada to diffentiate from one mind set to another within Prabhupada's disfuntional familty of followers.

 

Hare Krsna,

 

CB-r

[Shakti-Fan]

Alachua, Florida : May 28, 2001 (Excerpt)

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

...Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja preached this [Gaura vani, Rupanuga], but in the beginning he had to cut so many jungles of mayavada, nirvesesa, and sahajiya philosophies. He saw that in order to make the land of the world fertile, it would take a long time. He therefore put all these truths in his transcendental literatures. He thought that if any of his disciples would be qualified to go deep into those truths, all this vani would be taught there. He wanted to preach it also, but it was rare to find a student who could go so deep. Most of his students could not follow him, and that is why so many fell down even from sannyasa...

...Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati is described in his pranama mantra to be gaura-vani murti. [Namaste gaura-vani sri murtaye dina-tarine.] Murti means embodiment. He is the embodiment of gaura-vani, and Srila Swami Maharaja, your Prabhupada, is in the same line. He is not different from Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. The term 'Prabhupadanuga' is a wrong idea. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are both followers of Srila Rupa Gosvami, and therefore they are rupanuga. Following them, we are all rupanuga.

[brajeshwara das]

 

I think semantics too, same same. Useing anuga as suffex is new to post samadhi of Srila Prabhupada to diffentiate from one mind set to another within Prabhupada's disfuntional familty of followers.

 

 

So what are these mind sets? Who is Prabhupadanuga and who isn't?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

So what are these mind sets? Who is Prabhupadanuga and who isn't?

 

The term Prabhupadanuga came about in order for his disciples to designate who "Follows" Srila Prabhupada, as opposed to one who does not follow, or one who claims to but who stays loyal to Iskcon GBC dictates, and often they are considered "not a follower". For a Prabhupadanuga would never neglect an order of Srila Prabhupada's, change the SUBSTANCE, of his books, etc.

 

So in this light, the quote posted by Shakti Fan

 

"The term 'Prabhupadanuga' is a wrong idea. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura are both followers of Srila Rupa Gosvami, and therefore they are rupanuga. Following them, we are all rupanuga."

 

shows that Sri Narayana Maharaja was just spliting hairs for some reason.

 

For the real SUBSTANCE, is that they follow their Prabhupada. And thus are Prabhupadanuga and Rupanuga both.

 

If he had argued that the nomenclature used was confusing and improper, I might agree. For everyone feels their Guru is Prabhupada.

 

So Bhaktivedantanuga maybe. I have heard people refer to his disciples as "Bhaktivedantas" also.

 

But the SPIRIT OR SUBSTANCE is what is most important, semantics aside.

[Beggar]

 

The term 'Prabhupadanuga' is a wrong idea.

Narayana Maharaja is a bit too open about the manjari subject for me. But I will have to agree with his insight on this issue cent per cent.

[Beggar]

 

 

...shows that Sri Narayana Maharaja was just spliting hairs for some reason.

 

 

Maybe but maybe not. Many of the rtviks claim to be "Prabhupadanugas" but they don't know hardly anything about Rupanuga even as an ideal. So I've got a feeling that's what he's talking about. The way you used the term "Prabhupanuga" in an earlier post was different and I personally don't find it objectionable. It's just that some folks use the term to prove that they are loyal to Prabhupada and others are not.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Of course, why not just fault find some honest neophyte disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have been through hell, have pulled their sorry victimized selves up from the curb, and are following Srila Prabhupada's instructions the best they can. Banding together and feeling the unity of camraderie by being able to associate themselves under one heading honoring "their Prabhupada".

 

Anyone who can't walk a mile in a less intellectually gifted/ but still devotional person's shoes ought not to criticise so easily, especially in this case where it is the actual criticism of Vaisnavas.

 

On such a small thing.

 

Nuttin better to do.

 

Sheesh.

 

All glories to the Prabhupadanugas. Whoever they are.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

"It's just that some folks use the term to prove that they are loyal to Prabhupada and others are not."

 

Where there is a neophyte tendency, there will be some sentimental sectarianism. This is to be expected, and we need to focus on what is positive about what they are experiencing, and try to build on that.

 

And if we see someone being so fanatic, we should mention it to them for their own good. Once. If they don't accept, they don't want to hear it from us, we are rejected as teacher, too bad, they like the mud.

[Beggar]

Lieber Meister, Nehmen Sie bitte an meine bescheidene Unterordnung. Deutscher ist die beste Sprache für Krieger!

Warum Erwerb die Eigenschaft. Blitzkrieg würde hier arbeiten. Ich habe 3 Panzer Abteilungen, 2 Luftwaffe Maßeinheiten und 2 Deutsche Infanterie-Abteilungen an meiner Beseitigung.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Lieber Meister, Nehmen Sie bitte an meine bescheidene Unterordnung. Deutscher ist die beste Sprache für Krieger!

Warum Erwerb die Eigenschaft. Blitzkrieg würde hier arbeiten. Ich habe 3 Panzer Abteilungen, 2 Luftwaffe Maßeinheiten und 2 Deutsche Infanterie-Abteilungen an meiner Beseitigung.

OH- Prabhu, bist du so falsch! Deutscher ist die Sprache von transcendental ecstacy! Einfach sehen, wie freundlich es die Zunge ausspeichert!

Krieg ist nicht die Antwort, nur Liebe Haß erobern kann!

Oder sagt so Marvin Gaye!

[anadi]

Dear Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja, Dandavat pranam,

You said:

Srila Prabhupada told us(ISKCON) to take up this DVD, you do not have to do nor agree. I do. And others on this form too. THAT IS ALL. Order is given. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 stroked="f" filled="f" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" o:preferrelative="t" o:spt="75" coordsize="21600,21600"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:connecttype="rect" gradientshapeok="t" o:extrusionok="f"></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" alt="" type="#_x0000_t75"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\je3794\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/cool.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

But

The argument is not that one has or has not to agree with the DVD.

The argument was: If following and/ or having (daivi) varnashram-dharma as goal of one’s endeavours correspond the teachings of Sri Caitanya and His empowered representatives.

(and … it does not, as previously shown).

You also said:

 

You are interjecting in a family discussion and not minding your manners. Babaji's will love your arguements. We care not, we are for Prabhupada. And He says to do.

but

I don’t know if “babajis will love my arguments", but sure is that Madhavananda das (known in this forum as raga), who follows the teachings of Sri Ananta Das Babaji, generally do not agree with my arguments, so, in this connection I don’t represent any Babaji camp.

[anadi]

Dear Bhakta Devarsi, dandavat pranam,

As I said:

When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks o bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti...

You replied:

 

This is the most absurd thing I ever heard.

Those other forms of mixed bhakti would not even have existence, name and form without a Gaudiya Vaisnava who defined them, aka spoke of them.

But

You make a logical mistake:

The statement

"When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti"

doesn’t say that unpure bhakti doesn’t exist, but

when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti,

but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of, or

when a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of the definition of bhakti he refers to shuddha bhakti, otherwise he says explicitly what kind of impure bhakti he wants to speak of.

You also said:

I actually feel really bad for you but that is my problem, you obviously have no feeling for anyone but yourself, so please accept my obeisances from a distance, and just leave me alone until you can recognize the existence of that other Bhaktas exist besides those enjoying unalloyed Krishna prema.

This statement is based by misunderstanding the statement

1.When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti,

The explanation was already given.

2. This your new coined therm „unalloyed Krishna prema” is not proper, or is false.

Krishna prema is always pure (unalloyed). This love is only covered, so that we may not have access to it, and as Srila Rupa Gosvami says in Bhakri Rasamrita Sindhu, when one by the power of his bhajan attains the state of pure goodness- śuddha-sattva, which has a peculiar flavor in the soul – viśeṣa atma, than in his citta – consciousness („heart”) which by bhajan was purified and is śuddha, by the mercy of a shuddha bhakta or bhagavan, the rays of the divine love - prema-suryāḿśu manifest – sāmyabhāk and his citta melts māsṛṇya by a blend of divine tastes – rucibhiś, and one attains the state of bhava – the beginning of divine love - prema.

So, as you may see the goal – prayojana is not daivi varnashram dharma, but premA, and the means to attain the goal, abhideya is bhakti bhajana, not daivi varnashram dharma.

You also said:

For your denial of them as being Bhakti is not merciful, and therefore what kind of Bhakti are you practicing. Get it? I can only pray you might some day.

This conclusion of yours is also false, because is based on false assumptions:

I never denied there are people who do little bhakti mixed with a lot of vikarma and so on, and accordingly their state is miserable, materially and spiritually; materially because they continue to hanker for material amenities they cannot afford, and spiritually because their progress in bhakti is almost null, and premA seems to be a fairytale.

They should start bhakti sadhana: studying the literature of the Gosvamis and increase the quantity of chanting and the quality of it by meditating on the goal of their endeavors, according their acquired eligibility.