Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[anadi]

Dear bhaktachris, Dandavat pranam,

You gave this quotation:

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitaù. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

This is a willingly wrong interpretation of the words Sthane sthitah – stay where you are.

Sthane sthitah is not a recommendation to introduce varnasrama-dharma, but a concession that one can do sadhana bhakti wherever one is. Sri Caitanya meant that to do sadhana-bhakti one should not change one’s varNa or ashrama, because bhakti is not depending on them.

KRSNa-bhakti is described as ahaituki – without cause, and also apratihata, continuous - so when it is awakened in our heart, we can feel that our heart is getting wonderfully satisfied, yayatma suprasidati.

Ahaituky apratihata: it has no cause; and it cannot be checked, cannot be opposed, opposition cannot have any effect there - it is such.

Bhakti comes from bhakti, not from jJana, karma, vairagya, or ... sattva guana.

 

We have to get help from the sadhus who have got bhakti within them.

In this way it is ahaituki.

Just as, from one candle another cadle may be lit. A candle cannot produce light from within, but it is to be lit from another candle. We are to awaken our buried bhakti, which is covered by 'anyabhilasa, karma and jnana

You also added:

those of us who have heard from Srila Prabhuapda have had the Acharya come,

This a wery much Mesia like statement of the Christians.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami is Iskcon founder acarya, not the acarya of the world as the Iskcon wants to put it, not the acarya of any of the many Gaudiya Mats or the acarya of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

He was the best advertising medium for Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the west, but he mainly preached not Gaudiya Vaishnavism but something else: Iskcon-ism or Hare Krishna Movement, and his followers are Iskcon-anuga, nor raga-anungas, and neither rupa-anugas, but “Prabhupada”-anuga, as they also aknowledge.

 

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Dear Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja, Dandavat pranam,

You said:

Srila Prabhupada told us(ISKCON) to take up this DVD, you do not have to do nor agree. I do. And others on this form too. THAT IS ALL. Order is given. <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"></v:path><o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_i1025 style="WIDTH: 12pt; HEIGHT: 12pt" type="#_x0000_t75" alt=""><v:imagedata o:href="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/images/smilies/cool.gif" src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\je3794\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

But

The argument is not that one has or has not to agree with the DVD.

The argument was: If following and/ or having (daivi) varnashram-dharma as goal of one’s endeavours correspond the teachings of Sri Caitanya and His empowered representatives.

(and … it does not, as previously shown).

You also said:

 

You are interjecting in a family discussion and not minding your manners. Babaji's will love your arguements. We care not, we are for Prabhupada. And He says to do.

but

I don’t know if “babajis will love my arguments", but sure is that Madhavananda das (known in this forum as raga), who follows the teachings of Sri Ananta Das Babaji, generally do not agree with my arguments, so, in this connection I don’t represent any Babaji camp.

 

 

DVD is not VAD! Bhakti is the end goal, never is this said different. DVD is the means to the end goal of practical Bhakti yoga. Daivi means God consciousness. How can you not get this? And Srila Prabhupada has said to do like this. Bas.

 

As for 'Babaji camp' non affiliation, that's great!

 

CB-r

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

You make a logical mistake:

The statement

"When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti"

doesn’t say that unpure bhakti doesn’t exist, but

when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti, but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of, or when a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of the definition of bhakti he refers to shuddha bhakti, otherwise he says explicitly what kind of impure bhakti he wants to speak of.

 

This is the logic of a neophyte, allow me to explain.

 

A neophyte wants to be part of an exclusive section. He needs this phenomenon in order to satisfy the material desires of feeling part of a group, having some special fame, being able to identify with something larger than his self.

 

This subtle sense gratification leads to what Anadi just said.

 

When a Gaudiya Vaisnava speaks of the definition of Bhakti, he may refer to shuddha bhakti only.

 

But as you just admitted in your post, the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include all of the forms of Bhakti, including the impure forms.

 

If asked to give the definition of PURE BHAKTI, that would be one thing, but that is not what we were talking about, you read that (pure) part into it because of your obsession with being considered pure, and the exclusivity that comes with the fact that so many others obviously are not.

 

For Vaidhi Bhakti is bhakti, or else the word Bhakti would not be a part of the compound word which made up the term.

 

So Anadi's speculation (not backed up by any quote from an authority) that a Gaudiya Vaisnava defines Bhakti only as the Purest form Suddha Bhakti is simply wrong. He is just using this contrived arguement in order to try to be correct about something. Wanting to be right. And challenging me based on a flimsy and outrageous conclusion.

 

If moderators were made for anything, I believe their best duty would be to channel someone like Anadi to a portion of the forum for recalcitrant neophytes who have yet to understand their own human self, but wants to condemn the perfectly valid points made by his seniors, just to get some undeserved attention.

 

Please already Anadi, get a job.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

 

When a Gaudiya Vaisnava speaks of the definition of Bhakti, he may refer to shuddha bhakti only.

 

But as you just admitted in your post, the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include all of the forms of Bhakti, including the impure forms.

 

If asked to give the definition of PURE BHAKTI, that would be one thing, but that is not what we were talking about, you read that (pure) part into it because of your obsession with being considered pure, and the exclusivity that comes with the fact that so many others obviously are not.

 

For Vaidhi Bhakti is bhakti, or else the word Bhakti would not be a part of the compound word which made up the term.

 

Hare Krsna

When Gaudiya Vaisnavas speak of bhakti and do not qualify it with an adjective that shows it is mixed or of a lower stage such as "vaidhi" then they do mean suddha or pure bhakti by definition. In a sense this concept alludes to Srila Rupa Goswami's verse, anyabhilasita sunyam...

 

Then Anadi who claims no Babaji affiliation takes the flag of the Babaji camp's attack on Prabhupada and his gurudeva by stating:

 

 

You also added:

those of us who have heard from Srila Prabhuapda have had the Acharya come,

This a wery much Mesia like statement of the Christians.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami is Iskcon founder acarya, not the acarya of the world as the Iskcon wants to put it, not the acarya of any of the many Gaudiya Mats or the acarya of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

He was the best advertising medium for Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the west, but he mainly preached not Gaudiya Vaishnavism but something else: Iskcon-ism or Hare Krishna Movement, and his followers are Iskcon-anuga, nor raga-anungas, and neither rupa-anugas, but “Prabhupada”-anuga, as they also aknowledge.

 

In other words he takes the "Prabhupadanuga Fallacy" and ascribes it's origin to Srila Prabhupada himself which if you look at what Shakti-fan and others posted earlier, is quite false. The real problem is that the Rtivks, "Prabhupadanugas" and their fellow-travellers who I call Prabhupada-Onlyites bring on attacks against Srila Prabhupada by their false propaganda of divorcing Prabhupada from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and the entire Rupanuga guru varga. By doing so they sully reputation of the real ISKCON and Prabhupada.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

 

In other words he takes the "Prabhupadanuga Fallacy" and ascribes it's origin to Srila Prabhupada himself which if you look at what Shakti-fan and others posted earlier, is quite false. The real problem is that the Rtivks, "Prabhupadanugas" and their fellow-travellers who I call Prabhupada-Onlyites bring on attacks against Srila Prabhupada by their false propaganda of divorcing Prabhupada from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and the entire Rupanuga guru varga. By doing so they sully reputation of the real ISKCON and Prabhupada.

 

 

For myself, I admit I can only know Prabhupada. I only say all Gaudiya in regard to DVD because Srila Prabhupada says that His Guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wants it(DVD). Then we also know that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur spoke of DVD. So every recent personality in the Paramapara has said. And I have never 'divorced' any previous Acharya. They all agree to DVD.

 

 

SB.5.1.24 purport

 

Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krishna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society.

 

 

 

Sense Srila Prabhupada is the direction I have taken, then I say on His behave, as He is the current predominant manifestation of the parampara. Other branches of Gaudiyas are not agreeable to DVD, that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wanted. If you follow a different branch from Gaudiya, then not for me to say, or very little.

 

Hare Krsna,

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

This is the logic of a neophyte, allow me to explain.

 

A neophyte wants to be part of an exclusive section. He needs this phenomenon in order to satisfy the material desires of feeling part of a group, having some special fame, being able to identify with something larger than his self.

 

This subtle sense gratification leads to what Anadi just said.

 

When a Gaudiya Vaisnava speaks of the definition of Bhakti, he may refer to shuddha bhakti only.

 

But as you just admitted in your post, the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include all of the forms of Bhakti, including the impure forms.

 

If asked to give the definition of PURE BHAKTI, that would be one thing, but that is not what we were talking about, you read that (pure) part into it because of your obsession with being considered pure, and the exclusivity that comes with the fact that so many others obviously are not.

 

For Vaidhi Bhakti is bhakti, or else the word Bhakti would not be a part of the compound word which made up the term.

 

So Anadi's speculation (not backed up by any quote from an authority) that a Gaudiya Vaisnava defines Bhakti only as the Purest form Suddha Bhakti is simply wrong. He is just using this contrived arguement in order to try to be correct about something. Wanting to be right. And challenging me based on a flimsy and outrageous conclusion.

 

If moderators were made for anything, I believe their best duty would be to channel someone like Anadi to a portion of the forum for recalcitrant neophytes who have yet to understand their own human self, but wants to condemn the perfectly valid points made by his seniors, just to get some undeserved attention.

 

Please already Anadi, get a job.

 

Hare Krsna

 

I think you are mistaken Prabhu. I disagree with anadi on plenty of matters, but this one I believe he is 100% correct. If Bhakti were milk, you would say 'milk' when referring to it. If it were mixed with an impurity, say chocolate, you would say 'chocolate milk'. If it were made into butter would you still call it milk?

 

In SCSMath when we talk about Bhakti, we aim at the highest thing, we aren't talking about a watered down or mixed version of the thing, it is the highest thing we strive for, that we worship. I believe this is true in ISKCON as well. We are specific when referring to mixed Bhakti and usually are describing that mixed situation if we are speaking about it at all.

[brajeshwara das]

 

If moderators were made for anything, I believe their best duty would be to channel someone like Anadi to a portion of the forum for recalcitrant neophytes who have yet to understand their own human self, but wants to condemn the perfectly valid points made by his seniors, just to get some undeserved attention.

 

Please already Anadi, get a job.

 

Also moderators are really here to handle this sort of personal attack, is there really a need for this?

[brajeshwara das]

 

The real problem is that the Rtivks, "Prabhupadanugas" and their fellow-travellers who I call Prabhupada-Onlyites bring on attacks against Srila Prabhupada by their false propaganda of divorcing Prabhupada from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and the entire Rupanuga guru varga. By doing so they sully reputation of the real ISKCON and Prabhupada.

[Beggar]

 

If you follow a different branch from Gaudiya, then not for me to say, or very little.

 

CB-r

From the perspective of the duality of this world one would be deemed a "follower of a branch" of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. But if we are true to the real spirit of Krsna Consciousness then we will be seekers of the Truth. This is one idea I have had confirmed by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. I always felt this from the very beginning of my seeking.(Although such seeking is sometimes covered by the clould of sensuous desires). Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was a revolutionary thinker who promoted daiva varnasrama dharma and opposed asura varnasrama dharma. Catur varnyam maya srstam guna karma vibhagasah (B.G. 4.13) Bhagavan Sri Krsna says that He established these varnas in terms of quality of work, not birth. In Sridhar Maharaja's words, "The preaching mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, the Gaudiya Matha, has declared totalitarian war against maya, illusion, and even all other existing conceptions of religion. And our authority is Srimad Bhagavatam, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." But also Srila Saraswati Thakur established a society of vaisnava brahmanas and it seems apparent from the history of ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada followed suit. Yet the mid -1970s saw falldowns of sannyasis and big managers of epic and farcical proportions. Now the evidence which you an others have put forth shows that he began to adjust by trying to make ISKCON a society led by vaisnava brahmana's which would also take into account the other three varnas, who are also attracted to Krsna Consciousness on various levels. So after the first stages of Prabhupada's ISKCON experiment, as a spiritual scientist he began to adjust according to the results. Yet, its really how he saw the situation which led to his actions and words. He was seeing the Truth of the situation and that should be an example for all, despite their affiliation. In this way everyone in all the camps must proclaim from on high, "Ich bin ein ISKCONer!"

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/music/clipserve/B000002NQE001020/1

/ref=mu_sam_ra001_020/701-6021320-0283539

[bhaktatraveler]

 

From the perspective of the duality of this world one would be deemed a "follower of a branch" of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. But if we are true to the real spirit of Krsna Consciousness then we will be seekers of the Truth. This is one idea I have had confirmed by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. I always felt this from the very beginning of my seeking.(Although such seeking is sometimes covered by the clould of sensuous desires). Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was a revolutionary thinker who promoted daiva varnasrama dharma and opposed asura varnasrama dharma. Catur varnyam maya srstam guna karma vibhagasah (B.G. 4.13) Bhagavan Sri Krsna says that He established these varnas in terms of quality of work, not birth. In Sridhar Maharaja's words, "The preaching mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, the Gaudiya Matha, has declared totalitarian war against maya, illusion, and even all other existing conceptions of religion. And our authority is Srimad Bhagavatam, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." But also Srila Saraswati Thakur established a society of vaisnava brahmanas and it seems apparent from the history of ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada followed suit. Yet the mid -1970s saw falldowns of sannyasis and big managers of epic and farcical proportions. Now the evidence which you an others have put forth shows that he began to adjust by trying to make ISKCON a society led by vaisnava brahmana's which would also take into account the other three varnas, who are also attracted to Krsna Consciousness on various levels. So after the first stages of Prabhupada's ISKCON experiment, as a spiritual scientist he began to adjust according to the results. Yet, its really how he saw the situation which led to his actions and words. He was seeing the Truth of the situation and that should be an example for all, despite their affiliation. In this way everyone in all the camps must proclaim from on high, "Ich bin ein ISKCONer!"

 

 

I was on pins and neddles your post was sooooo good. Then you went in the 'Zone' and I lost the last 4 words!!!

 

Proclaim what 'from on high' ?

 

CB-r

[Beggar]

 

I was on pins and neddles your post was sooooo good. Then you went in the 'Zone' and I lost the last 4 words!!!

 

Proclaim what 'from on high' ?

 

CB-r

1. By yon bonnie banks and by yon bonnie braes,

Where the sun shines bright on Loch Lomond.

Where me and my true love were ever wont to gae

On the bonnie, bonnie banks O' Loch Lomond.

 

Refrain:

O ye'll tak' the high road and I'll tak' the low road,

An' I'll be in Scotland afore ye;

But me and my true love will never meet again

On the bonnie, bonnie banks O' Loch Lomond.

 

2. 'Twas there that we parted in yon shady glen,

On the steep, steep side O' Ben Lomon',

Where in purple hue the Hieland hills we view,

An' the moon comin' out in the gloamin'

Refrain:

 

3. The wee birdies sing and the wild flow'rs spring,

And in sunshine the waters are sleepin';

But the broken heart it kens nae second spring,

Tho' the waefu' may cease frae their greetin'.

Refrain:

 

Dort an dem Ufer, am fröhlichen Hang,

Wo die Sonne scheint hell auf Loch Lomond,

Wo ich, mit der Liebsten, macht' manchen frohen Gang,

An dem schönen, schönen Hang bei Loch Lomond.

 

Refrain:

O, nehm du den Bergweg und ich geh zunieder,

Und ich werd' in Schottland vor dir sein,

Doch ich und mein Schatz sehen uns nie wieder

An dem schönen, schönen Hang bei Loch Lomond.

 

Er war dort, unser Abschied, im schattigen Tal

Dort am steilen Hang von Ben Lomond,

Wo purpur die Berge wir sahen noch einmal

In dem Abendrot unter'm Vollmond.

Refrain:

 

Die Vögelein die singen uns ihr' süße Lieder

Die Wasser, die schlaf'n unter Sonne

Aber Herzleid erlebt Frühling nie wieder

Und die Betrübtheit kennt keine Wonne.

Refrain:

http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Tales_From_The_Darkside.mp3

[Beggar]

Before we take the land for our DVD Program we will become inspired by listening to:

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/music/clipserve/B000002NQE001020/1/ref=mu_sam_ra001_020/701-6021320-0283539

[brajeshwara das]

 

From the perspective of the duality of this world one would be deemed a "follower of a branch" of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. But if we are true to the real spirit of Krsna Consciousness then we will be seekers of the Truth. This is one idea I have had confirmed by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. I always felt this from the very beginning of my seeking.(Although such seeking is sometimes covered by the clould of sensuous desires). Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was a revolutionary thinker who promoted daiva varnasrama dharma and opposed asura varnasrama dharma. Catur varnyam maya srstam guna karma vibhagasah (B.G. 4.13) Bhagavan Sri Krsna says that He established these varnas in terms of quality of work, not birth. In Sridhar Maharaja's words, "The preaching mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, the Gaudiya Matha, has declared totalitarian war against maya, illusion, and even all other existing conceptions of religion. And our authority is Srimad Bhagavatam, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu." But also Srila Saraswati Thakur established a society of vaisnava brahmanas and it seems apparent from the history of ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada followed suit. Yet the mid -1970s saw falldowns of sannyasis and big managers of epic and farcical proportions. Now the evidence which you an others have put forth shows that he began to adjust by trying to make ISKCON a society led by vaisnava brahmana's which would also take into account the other three varnas, who are also attracted to Krsna Consciousness on various levels. So after the first stages of Prabhupada's ISKCON experiment, as a spiritual scientist he began to adjust according to the results. Yet, its really how he saw the situation which led to his actions and words. He was seeing the Truth of the situation and that should be an example for all, despite their affiliation. In this way everyone in all the camps must proclaim from on high, "Ich bin ein ISKCONer!"

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/music/clipserve/B000002NQE001020/1

/ref=mu_sam_ra001_020/701-6021320-0283539

 

This past weekend I asked about daiva varnashrama dharma from a more senior SCSMath vaisnava, and he said the mission is intended to be the Brahman section of society, per Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's misson. That Srila Swami Maharaj through necessity because of the scope of his mission and the challenges he encountered wanted the whole DVD system is understandable as you have said, and this harmonizes why the SCSMath mission and other Gaudiya Maths hasn't gone this way, being a much smaller missions with different dynamics.

 

I knew there was harmony there, just didn't know where to look. Dandavats Prabhu!

[Guest guest]

No, not at all Brajeshwara prabhu. Your posts indicate anything but irresponsibility or lack of respect. I enjoy reading yoru posts and your insight into Krishna Consciousness. I was perplexed by you repeatedly asking the same question and sought clarification. That's all.

 

 

Because I'm not taking the time to read everything enough, multitasking while at work, which is irresponsible and not respectful of the subject at hand. I sincerely appologize.

[anadi]

Dear bhakta traveler, dandavat pranam,

You said:

DVD is not VAD! Bhakti is the end goal, never is this said different. DVD is the means to the end goal of practical Bhakti yoga. Daivi means God consciousness. How can you not get this?

That what you say, seems quite right, but there is a problem.

What is your goal first? To establish varna-ashram dharma in the world, because “Prabhubada” gave the order. Mahaprabhu said one should not endeavor for it - it is external, has nothing to do with bhakti - the true dharma.

According to Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta varna-ashrma dharma has nothing to do with bhakti, but as you are prabhupada-anunga, you follow the order of “Prabhubada”:

Prabhupada: … varnasrama-dharma is required. …. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, ..

You also say that the end goal, is to get bhakti,

but as you know bhakti is a function of divine love prema,

and than your goal is to attain prema so that you can do bhakti.

And Prema can be attained througn sadhana bhakti - than you have to attain the state of shuddha sattva vishesh atma, which can not be attained through varna-ashrama dharma.

The invention of a new path under the new term “daivi varnashram dharma” has no shastric support.

2. daivi means transcendental or spiritual and varna-ashram is in itself a daivi – system, a system to attain the transcendental thourgh karma, arta, <st1:place>kama,</st1:place> moksha, through which one can attain shuddha sattva but without vishesh atma

In this connection daivi varnashram dharma is an improper construct, which should reflect the idea of marrying bhakti-dharma with varna-ashrama dharma.

The logical mistake that “Prabhupada” or/ and his guru (as he started to implement varna-ashram) did, is to suggest that bhakti would need the support of varna-ashrama, which Mahaprabhu and shastra clearly deny it.

You also said:

As for 'Babaji camp' non affiliation, that's great!

Babajis are not your enemies. You should take your time and remember your real enemies.

Although I do not belong to any group or camp, I appreciate the Babaji’s of Radha Kunda, because, as far as I know up to now, they follow most closely the shastra, as taught by Mahaprabhu, His confidential associates and empowered representatives from Vrindavan, and accordingly have the transcendental realizations.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Beggar said,

 

 

But also Srila Saraswati Thakur established a society of vaisnava brahmanas and it seems apparent from the history of ISKCON that Srila Prabhupada followed suit. Yet the mid -1970s saw falldowns of sannyasis and big managers of epic and farcical proportions. Now the evidence which you an others have put forth shows that he began to adjust by trying to make ISKCON a society led by vaisnava brahmana's which would also take into account the other three varnas, who are also attracted to Krsna Consciousness on various levels. So after the first stages of Prabhupada's ISKCON experiment, as a spiritual scientist he began to adjust according to the results. Yet, its really how he saw the situation which led to his actions and words. He was seeing the Truth of the situation and that should be an example for all, despite their affiliation. In this way everyone in all the camps must proclaim from on high, "Ich bin ein ISKCONer!"

 

That is one way to look at it.

 

There is no such thing as a "society" without head arms belly and legs, so the idea of a society of brahmanas is a misnomer. As long as people around here seem to like to be techinical.

 

And to say that Srila Prabhupada followed suit, and then began realizing that he needed to add the other three varnas does not do his transcendental intelligence justice.

 

He knew what he was doing, who was before him, despite what people imagine. He was working with who Krsna sent him, and he appeared to be establishing his society from the head down, but he had ksyatrias vaisyas and sudras assisting him from 1966, and he knew them as that, whether he gave them sanyassa for preaching or not.

 

It is only us who are waking up to all this now, and tend to ascribe some definition to what these Acharyas were doing, and tend to make no sense doing so.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I think you are mistaken Prabhu. I disagree with anadi on plenty of matters, but this one I believe he is 100% correct. If Bhakti were milk, you would say 'milk' when referring to it. If it were mixed with an impurity, say chocolate, you would say 'chocolate milk'. If it were made into butter would you still call it milk?

 

In SCSMath when we talk about Bhakti, we aim at the highest thing, we aren't talking about a watered down or mixed version of the thing, it is the highest thing we strive for, that we worship. I believe this is true in ISKCON as well. We are specific when referring to mixed Bhakti and usually are describing that mixed situation if we are speaking about it at all.

 

A discerning person would read the above and see how you just want an arguement.

 

Because of course just tripping over yourself to disagree with me and to try to show my faults you forget the original statement I was contending.

 

 

When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti...

 

And in the context of this discussion, this elitist tripe becomes obvious.

 

Who is this neophyte to say that when a Vaisnava speaks he "always" uses the word "Bhakti" to mean Pure bhakti but

when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti,

but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of.

This might be or might not be true, and I perhaps even agree it would be less confusing for talk amongst educated brahmanas and ksyatrias. But please, what kind of authority makes these types of statements hmmmm..?/?

I didn't see any scriptural injunction that this is how it is for Vaisnavas.

And he does it with so many other things like this.

So, as you may see the goal – prayojana is not daivi varnashram dharma, but premA, and the means to attain the goal, abhideya is bhakti bhajana, not daivi varnashram dharma.

 

While this is true that one aspect of abhideya is bhajana, but he then goes to use a true statement to try and negate DVD in a way that cannot be upheld by logic. We have provided plenty of quotes showing that Srila Prabhupada and all past Acharyas consider DVD as one of the means to attain our goal, krishna prema.

 

But he will come back and argue that technically when bhava is reached there is no longer DVD.

 

But this shows profound ignorance as to the relationship between Vaidhi Bhakti and DVD and just attempts to minimize the very practice the person should be engaging in (Vaidhi and DVD) in order to quit being so offensive in glorifying something above one's realization, and minimizing the "impure" stages of Bhakti.

 

Aiming at the highest thing is not the same as saying The definition of Bhakti is "Suddha Bhakti".

 

Just more elitist nonsense, thus the phrase "get a job" because that is going to be the last resort for all the sudras pretending to be uttama adhikaris.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

A discerning person would read the above and see how you just want an arguement.

 

Because of course just tripping over yourself to disagree with me and to try to show my faults you forget the original statement I was contending.

 

 

I am just of a different opinion than you, that is all. You said anadi was wrong, and I disagreed. It wasn't hard to do at all. If it were anyone else I would have also made the same remark. It's not about you.

 

I actually don't want an argument at all, but since anadi is just like the rest of us, sometimes wrong, sometimes right, I think it is important to show him due respect when appropriate.

[Beggar]

 

 

Just more elitist nonsense, thus the phrase "get a job" because that is going to be the last resort for all the sudras pretending to be uttama adhikaris.

 

Hare Krsna

Of course you know this means war!

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/music/clipse...002NQE001020/1

/ref=mu_sam_ra001_020/701-6021320-0283539

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I am just of a different opinion than you, that is all. You said anadi was wrong, and I disagreed. It wasn't hard to do at all. If it were anyone else I would have also made the same remark. It's not about you.

 

I actually don't want an argument at all, but since anadi is just like the rest of us, sometimes wrong, sometimes right, I think it is important to show him due respect when appropriate.

 

Well Sir, if you carefully read what I wrote and the context, you would see that he doesn't have a leg to stand on, and in this respect he was just looking for a place to proclaim his lofty intellectual understanding of Bhakti, in order to try and dilute the function of DVD in our minds, by claiming it to be inferior to Pure Bhakti, when that was never an issue, and a claim was never made that DVD trumps pure Bhakti, no innuendo or implication either.

 

If you were to read carefully, which you almost promised to do a few days ago after being caught skimming and grinning, you would see it for what it is, a diversion and attack as if saving someone from the horrors of dabbling in impure Bhakti.

 

Ouch.

 

Man: "Hey, I heard you are practicing Bhakti Yoga these days."

 

Friend who has read a little: "Well no, you don't have to practice yoga to be a Bhakta because bhakti is Shuddha Bhakti as everyone knows." Now if you had said karma misra bhakti yoga....

 

See what I mean?

 

Leave the cult. Run away as fast as you can. It eats at your ability to see the simple things.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Of course you know this means war!

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/music/clipse...002NQE001020/1

/ref=mu_sam_ra001_020/701-6021320-0283539

It has been a war on maya from the very start for me.

 

She has little hold on my mind now (by his mercy), having been trained to see the world through Srila Prabhupada's eyes, but that doesn't mean I can't see how others are being blinded in the same way I was.

 

And I am a little less charming and tactful wading into a group of older disciples with a wake up call, because, as you say, it is a war. I just expect those who will get it will see it plainly, and those who don't will want to argue to keep their false position.

 

Then their may be some legitimate questions from those in between, but a question in humble submission to a search for the truth has a much different ring then a thoughtless arbitrary challenge by those who aspire to be the Top Dupe of the Cyber Sandbox.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

Well Sir, if you carefully read what I wrote and the context, you would see that he doesn't have a leg to stand on, and in this respect he was just looking for a place to proclaim his lofty intellectual understanding of Bhakti, in order to try and dilute the function of DVD in our minds, by claiming it to be inferior to Pure Bhakti, when that was never an issue, and a claim was never made that DVD trumps pure Bhakti, no innuendo or implication either.

 

 

Sorry Prabhu, I got what you and he were saying a bit mixed up:

 

 

"When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti" doesn’t say that unpure bhakti doesn’t exist, but

when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti,

but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of, or

when a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of the definition of bhakti he refers to shuddha bhakti, otherwise he says explicitly what kind of impure bhakti he wants to speak of.

 

You'll notice this was what I thought he was saying, but it was a quote from you. This thread is getting too long to keep track of.

 

BTW, speaking of cults, the CC has many instances where it says 'The cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu' and a swami I know would skip over the 'c' word when reading from the CC.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Sorry Prabhu, I got what you and he were saying a bit mixed up:

 

Sorry, good point about the cult of Bhakti (pure and or otherwise), but of course I was relying on the alternative, ie. mundane personality cult (however humanitarian or righteous it may be)

 

I know what you mean about trying to keep up.

 

That is why the nitpicky technical arguements by the self-styled pundits which detract from the substance of the discussion are nothing but a nuisance and distraction. This medium is imperfect, and I should look on the bright side that some genuine sharing of ideas takes place amidst the madness.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

 

You'll notice this was what I thought he was saying, but it was a quote from you. This thread is getting too long to keep track of.

 

BTW, speaking of cults, the CC has many instances where it says 'The cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu' and a swami I know would skip over the 'c' word when reading from the CC.

[anadi]

Dear bhakta Devarsi, dandavat pranam

You commented these statement of mine

You make a logical mistake:

<u1:p></u1:p>The statement

<u1:p></u1:p>"When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti"doesn’t say that unpure bhakti doesn’t exist, but

<u1:p></u1:p>when speaking of unpure bhakti, the (Gaudiya) Vaishnava don’t say bhakti, but he defines them as a type of unpure bhakti he speaks of, or<u1:p></u1:p> when a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of the definition of bhakti he refers to shuddha bhakti, otherwise he says explicitly what kind of impure bhakti he wants to speak of.

And said:

 

This is the logic of a neophyte, allow me to explain.

 

A neophyte wants to be part of an exclusive section. He needs this phenomenon in order to satisfy the material desires of feeling part of a group, having some special fame, being able to identify with something larger than his self. …

But

1.This argument is a personal attack, a “political” argument that has nothing to do with the subject.

2. Logic alone without being based on the statements of the shastra has no power; and your presented logic is not based on shastra. The evidence lies below.

 

Your first argumentation based on “logic” alone is this:

…as you just admitted in your post, the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include all of the forms of Bhakti, including the impure forms.

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

<!--[endif]-->

1. I never said or "admited" that the FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti would have to include … the impure forms.

But this logic of yours seems quite Ok, … but it isn’t, because:

2. When one gives a definition of something … whatever that may be, that definition reflects the pure state of that which is defined.

When one defines gold, one refers to gold in its pure state.

3. Your idea that FULL DEFINITION of Bhakti should include all of the forms of bhakti is based on lack of knowledge, regarding the forms of bhakti, as described in shastra.

So, after giving the definition of the pure bhakti, saying that

 

Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to Krishna, and these activities

must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma.

Srila Rupa Gosvami says that this bhakti, the pure bhakti, he defined previously is of three kinds:

sA bhaktiH sAdhana bhaktir bhAva bhaktiH premA bhaktir iti trividhA

There are only three kinds of bhakti:

sAdhana bhakti, bhAva bhakti, premA bhakti

which according Rupa Gosvami are all part of the pure bhakti.

If you don’t know how sadhana bhakti is part of the pure bhakti, I can explain it to you in a further post.

That which is outside of pure bhakti is not bhakti:

Aropa siddha bhakti is an imposition of bhakti on activities which seem related to bhakti, but really they are not bhakti.

Sanga siddha bhakti is the cultivation of good qualities, which really is not bhakti, but when this cultivation is done in association with bhakti activities, than it may be called sanga siddha bhakti, but is not bhakti, than bhakti means cultivation of another type of activities.

You also added this argumentation:

If asked to give the definition of PURE BHAKTI, that would be one thing, but that is not what we were talking about, you read that (pure) part into it because of your obsession with being considered pure, and the exclusivity that comes with the fact that so many others obviously are not.

No, this is not my “obsession”.

Pure bhakti according Gaudiya siddhanta is bhakti, and in the pure bhakti according the definition of rupa Gosvami,

there are sAdhana bhakti, bhAva bhakti and premA bhakti

You added also this argument:

For Vaidhi Bhakti is bhakti, or else the word Bhakti would not be a part of the compound word which made up the term.

But

Vaidhi bhakti is not bhakti because of your logic, but because it is part of the Sadhana bhakti, which Rupa Gosvami includes it in the Pure bhakti, as he says:

vaidhI rAgAnugA ceti sA dvidhA sAdhanAbhidhA || (brs 1.2.5)

 

“Practice is of two kinds, namely vaidhi and raganuga.”

Your conclusion:

So Anadi's speculation (not backed up by any quote from an authority) that a Gaudiya Vaisnava defines Bhakti only as the Purest form Suddha Bhakti is simply wrong. He is just using this contrived arguement in order to try to be correct about something. Wanting to be right. And challenging me based on a flimsy and outrageous conclusion.

Your conclusion is false.

Whatever I presented are not speculations, or out of the desire of being right, but is based on Gaudyia Vaishnava Siddhanta as presented by Srila Rupa Gosvami, as I detailed explained above.

 

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

<!--[endif]-->

[brajeshwara das]

Hey anadi,

 

No offense Prabhu but can you try and use the forum quote system, you made my confused about who was saying what earlier and it would be really helpful. Thanks.

 

regarding your last post :popcorn:I'm eagerly waiting to see the reply.