Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[anadi]

 

Hey anadi,

 

No offense Prabhu but can you try and use the forum quote system, you made my confused about who was saying what earlier and it would be really helpful. Thanks.

 

regarding your last post :popcorn:I'm eagerly waiting to see the reply.

1. The red is said by bhakta devarsi.

2. My opinion is that up to now bhakta devarsi didn't prove he knows the basics of bhakti. What the future will bring... let us see.

[brajeshwara das]

 

1. The red is said by bhakta devarsi.

2. My opinion is that up to now bhakta devarsi didn't prove he knows the basics of bhakti. What the future will bring... let us see.

 

I know, but when others quote you it doesn't get carried over and is all black text. We are talking particulars here and if you speak French no one will understand. It's kind of like that. Feel free to ignore me though, I don't mind

 

Hari Bol!

[anadi]

Dear bhakta devarsi, dandavat pranam,

 

you quoted me

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So, as you may see the goal – prayojana is not daivi varnashram dharma, but premA, and the means to attain the goal, abhideya is bhakti bhajana, not daivi varnashram dharma.

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

and made more comments:

1.

While this is true that one aspect of abhideya is bhajana, but he (anadi) then goes to use a true statement to try and negate DVD in a way that cannot be upheld by logic.

 

Answer:

Logic without shastra has no power.

Whatever I presented is confirmed by Gaudiya Siddhanta.

If you think it is not, please give an example, and we analize it.

2.

We have provided plenty of quotes showing that Srila Prabhupada and all past Acharyas consider DVD as one of the means to attain our goal, krishna prema.

 

Answer:

"All past acaryas" may at most start with the guru of "Prabhupada" and his neu version of Gaudiya Vaishnavism, (most important changes regarding raga-anunga sadhan-bhakti).

- But I don't know any statement of his where he speaks of DVD or "consider(s) DVD as one of the means to attain our goal, krishna prema".

- "Prabhupada" himself speaks of establishing varnashram dharma not DVD.

 

Bhakti Abhideya is the means to attain prema – divine love of God.

And Varnashram dharma is not Bhakti Abhideya. The evidence is presented below.

 

"Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

 

1. Varnashram dharma is naimitik dharma – occasional nature of duty, and as such comprise another abhideya, or means to attain the goal of it.

 

 

Sri Krishna Himself taught in the beginning of His discourse to Arjuna varNa-azrama dharma, the first level of perfection.

niyataḿ kuru karma tvaḿ / karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yātrāpi ca te / na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ BG 3.8

 

Perform always (niyataM) your duty (karma), for doing so is certainly(hi) better than do akarma. One maintains himself through karma.

 

This kind of instructions on the first level of perfection are linked with sacrifices to the demigods which in change will give material prosperity. The demigods are not able to give liberation from the material world, being themselves under the spell of material energy – maya.

 

saha-yajñāḥ prajāḥ sṛṣṭvā / purovāca prajāpatiḥ

anena prasaviṣyadhvam / eṣa vo 'stv iṣṭa-kāma-dhuk

BG 3.10

 

In the beginning of creation, the Lord of the creatures (praja-pati – BrahmA) sent forth generations (of men and demigods), along with sacrifice, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajJa [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily."

 

devān bhāvayatānena / te devā bhāvayantu vaḥ

parasparaḿ bhāvayantaḥ / śreyaḥ param avāpsyatha

BG 3.11

 

The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you, and thus, by cooperation between men and demigods, prosperity will reign for all.

 

 

The essence of Varnashrama abhideya is karma (acting according the rules of varna and ashram) and it produces artha - economical prosperity, by which the material desires Kama are satisfied.

And as you can see Varnashrama abhideya has nothing to do with Bhakti abhideya in bhakti-dharma, which is nitya dharma.

Establishing Varnashram dharma as a means to make bhakti easier is false, because

1. there are no other qualifications for bhakti than the association with the carrier of bhakti, and varNa-ashram dharma is not.

2. Practicing Varna-ashram dharma as taught in the scriptures, and as delineated by Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-gita has nothing to do with bhakti, that is why the same <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comkAma</st1:place> can be satisfied. </i>

<font face=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as Sri Caitanya – the avatar of love, rejected it.

<FONT face=Verdana>

<FONT face=Verdana>3. All the endeavors for something else than bhakti, with the idea that will help bhakti is false, but ... under circumstances they might be seen as saNga-siddha bhakti when performed in association with the limbs of sadhana bhakti.

 

 

 

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Dear Anadi

 

When you finally realize that you are just a beginner in Mixed Bhakti, gimme a jingle, maybe we can share a Kirtan or reading from the Bhagavad Gita.

 

I haven't read a single rainbow colored diatribe you have posted in 2 days because it is all blah blah blah if you can't accept your true position, and I don't want to encourage you feel you need to wrap yourself up in concepts above your pay grade.

 

Best wishes in your unwinding. And please forgive me if I was rough with my personal attacks, but consider the analogy that I was in my mind just picking you up while you were still talking and carrying you from the room, and placing you outside the door so you would not disturb the serious discussions your seniors were involved in.

 

In reality on the internet this is not possible, and that is why I am (gradually) withdrawing from this forum, or any internet forum, because it is not possible to prevent people from doing what they should not be doing in the middle of a conversation, and it is NEVER possible to force a person to be reasonable. I was a school teacher, and if a student ever started to do what you did, they would find themselves in the principles office in a blink of an eye, even if I had to carry or chase them there, both of which I have had to do to keep harmony in class.

 

Hare Krsna

 

sincerely

 

Bhakta Mark

[brajeshwara das]

 

Best wishes in your unwinding. And please forgive me if I was rough with my personal attacks, but consider the analogy that I was in my mind just picking you up while you were still talking and carrying you from the room, and placing you outside the door so you would not disturb the serious discussions your seniors were involved in.

 

 

You may disagree with anadi but he has been nothing but cordial and is worthy of a thoughtful reply to his points. He may be wrong in siddhanta (which isn't clear to me that he is wrong) but he doesn't appear to be the one acting like a child here.

[Shakti-Fan]

Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002 (excerpt)

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

[Later, Bhaktivinode Thakur] was sent to Krishnagara, Bihara, and also served in Vrndavana. While in Vrndavana, he went to Radha Kunda and Surya Kunda. At Radha Kunda, he met Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja, who was 144 years old at that time. He was so old that the lids of his eyes would droop over his eyes in heavy folds. In order to see, he would lift the skin from over his eyes, and peering at someone from beneath these folds, he would say, "I am like an old turtle." Despite his apparent aged condition, he could dance with great energy when he sang devotional songs, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would associate with him whenever he could. While Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was at Radha Kunda, the disciples of Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaja complained to him about the instructions they were receiving from their Gurudeva. They told him, "We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila. We have left everything, but our Gurudeva is telling us to grow brinjals (eggplant) and other vegetables and flowers for Thakurji. We did not come here to grow vegetables, flowers and fruits. Sir, should we return to our homes? We don't know what to do."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura told them, "You should try to serve your Gurudeva and follow his orders. You are chanting Hare Krsna, but you are full of anarthas (impurities) and cannot chant suddha-nama (the pure name). You may chant for thousands and thousands of births and not accomplish anything. It is good and proper that you follow your Gurudeva's instructions. You cannot remember the pastimes of Krsna while you are contaminated by these anarthas. If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart. You will soon give up your bhajana to become involved with women and you will return to worldly life. Most Radha Kunda babajis are doing just that, mixing illicitly with widows and having children with them; they are not doing any real bhajana.

"Do not fall down like them. You should follow your Gurudeva's orders; engage your energy in growing fruits and vegetables to offer to Thakurji or to a pure Vaisnava. You should also chant the holy name, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. Real paramarthika (transcendental) impressions and sukrti will come into your heart, and you will be able to truly follow your Guru. Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts. Don't follow the example of the Radha Kunda babajis. They don't know Vaisnava etiquette. They don't even know how to clean themselves after using the latrine. They certainly don't know any krsna-tattva, maya-tattva, or jiva- tattva. Ignorant persons who have left their homes arrive here knowing nothing about siddhanta. These babajis will cheat them, and for only two rupees, give them a false siddha name and a false siddha-deha. They will say, 'Now you are a gopi; your name is Lalita or Visakha.' This is abominable."

In his Jaiva Dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written everything about the authentic process to become a paramahamsa. Jaiva Dharma is the essence of the Vedas, Upanishads, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the writings of Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha das Gosvami and our guru-varga. Asta-kaliya-lila is described for those that are advanced, but how does one become qualified to understand it? One must systematically study Jaiva Dharma from beginning to end, starting with the first part where there is a description of the material world, and proceeding through a study of Dasa-mula and all the tattvas.

By following Jaiva Dharma properly, your anarthas will gradually disappear and you will be able to practice bhakti as exemplified by the two disciples, Brajanatha and Vijay Kumara. They practiced first in Navadvipa and then in Puri, and they were completely conversant with all the teachings of the important literatures by our guru-varga, including Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and Ujjvala-nilamani. They had realized all the stages of prema: vibhava, anubhava, sattvika, vyabhicari, etc. Thus they received real diksa, and they were blessed with a vision of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, dancing with Lord Nityananda and all of their associates.

[Guest guest]

 

"Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

 

The essence of Varnashrama abhideya is karma (acting according the rules of varna and ashram) and it produces artha - economical prosperity, by which the material desires Kama are satisfied.

And as you can see Varnashrama abhideya has nothing to do with Bhakti abhideya in bhakti-dharma, which is nitya dharma.

 

 

Anadi you used to preach the philosophy of Narayana Maharaja and now you are preaching what you have heard from Madhavananda and the Babajis of Vraja. But why?

 

Perhaps when people have seen the ISKCON devotees ideas about varnasrama they think "this is wrong, this is not spiritual life". But please understand what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur tried to do when he established Daivi Varnashrama Dharma amongst his disciples in the Gaudiya Math. What he established is that a man is not a brahmin just because his father was a brahmin caste man. A farmer's son is not necessarily a farmer too - we get designated as "farmer", "labourer", or "pujari - priest - brahmin" if we have a natural tendency to do those things in a wholesome way.

 

Your Radha-kunda babajis are still locked into the idea that a brahmin is a brahmin by birth. That is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur preached against. And he is right.

 

Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj (a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur ) and Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj (disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj) were both born in "Nityananda Vamsa" brahmin (guru) families and simply by their birth they were considered by caste-goswamis to be qualified to be Gurus themselves. But both of these "Goswamis" rejected the tradition of the caste-goswamis and became disciples within "Gaudiya Math".

 

You are making arguments on this message board where very few people know all the intricacies of Gaudiya Philosophy. But if you or Madhavananda go and have a face-to-face meeting with Govinda Deva Goswami and make these challenges you are making, do you think you will be able to convert that Goswami to your philsophy?

[Beggar]

 

Anadi you used to preach the philosophy of Narayana Maharaja and now you are preaching what you have heard from Madhavananda and the Babajis of Vraja. But why?

 

Perhaps when people have seen the ISKCON devotees ideas about varnasrama they think "this is wrong, this is not spiritual life". But please understand what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur tried to do when he established Daivi Varnashrama Dharma amongst his disciples in the Gaudiya Math. What he established is that a man is not a brahmin just because his father was a brahmin caste man. A farmer's son is not necessarily a farmer too - we get designated as "farmer", "labourer", or "pujari - priest - brahmin" if we have a natural tendency to do those things in a wholesome way.

 

Your Radha-kunda babajis are still locked into the idea that a brahmin is a brahmin by birth. That is what Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur preached against. And he is right.

 

Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj (a disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur ) and Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj (disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj) were both born in "Nityananda Vamsa" brahmin (guru) families and simply by their birth they were considered by caste-goswamis to be qualified to be Gurus themselves. But both of these "Goswamis" rejected the tradition of the caste-goswamis and became disciples within "Gaudiya Math".

 

You are making arguments on this message board where very few people know all the intricacies of Gaudiya Philosophy. But if you or Madhavananda go and have a face-to-face meeting with Govinda Deva Goswami and make these challenges you are making, do you think you will be able to convert that Goswami to your philsophy?

This post is a grand slam! Five stars. Yes, Yes, Yes! Jaya! Jaya! Jaya!

[Beggar]

Picture of Govinda Maharaja: http://www.verandaviews.com/grfx_inuse/0701_04_photopage_all/070220_photopage/image/070218_dsc_0053.jpg

[brajeshwara das]

 

 

Picture of Govinda Maharaja: http://www.verandaviews.com/grfx_inuse/0701_04_photopage_all/070220_photopage/image/070218_dsc_0053.jpg

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

"You are making arguments on this message board where very few people know all the intricacies of Gaudiya Philosophy."

 

And in this case, making arguements means artificially manufacturing arguements, a sure sign of slow poisoning taking effect.

 

The articles such a person chooses to contend are pointedly attacked by choosing main words that are actually broadly interpreted conceptual structures being applied quite suitably in a context to which they are perfectly applicable.

 

This is a classic straw man type of arguementation. Can't beat the essence, go for the strawman and beat him up. But this type of straw man is a ghost also.

 

The essence of the subject being presented is fine, but to manufacture arguement for arguements sake, one chooses a word in another's presentation and argues that it was used incorrectly, and goes on to imply that the other person's entire presentation had no transcendental value and was based on a foundation no sounder than a riven cloud.

 

When in fact the definition of the word was manipulated so narrowly that it only appears to contradict, and in reality, the word was used correctly to support the truth.

 

For example. In a thread where some people are repeating the instructions of the person they have chosen to their heart and mind to be the most prominent Acharya of the teachings of the Gaudiya line and the most current link (for them), in a preaching effort, based on quotations, Anadi had obliquely challenged the transcendental validity of the presentation based on a technical arguement regarding the definition of some key words, words which I will show are broadly interpreted without impropriety.

 

So Anadi says in regards to this statement of mine to which he adds emphasis in bold..

 

 

He replies,

 

 

This prescription is not from Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, who followed His teachings.

 

And of course it was a paraphrase of mine, and when I later went on to give direct evidence that Srila Prabhupada did prescribe the DVD system to "everyone" in his Iskcon society. And then logically concluded that since a purpose of Iskcon was to assist US in attaining the highest perfection, Shuddha Bhakti, that I was speaking in line with the Siddhanta.

 

but this point is only addressed later, as the diversion continued, as Anadi posts this.

 

 

"Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assists his disciple in making conscious that loving relation."

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

And The definition of bhakti for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas has been clearly stated by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

It must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma.

 

So at this point I tell him he is using a narrow definition of Bhakti to try to defeat me by attempting to show that my use of the word Bhakti is not applicable to my contention and thus my contention is not to be taken seriously. To which he replies.

 

 

The definition of Bhakti (as) Shuddha Bhakti is not a “narrow” definition, but the true definition of Bhakti. When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti.

This definition of bhakti was given by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

To which I put forth the following to smash this crafty diversion once and for all.

 

 

Now here we have HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami apparently caught in the act!! Is he a "real" Gaudiya Vaisnava?

 

Purport: Adi 4:21-22

 

In the Caitanya-caritamrta three kinds of devotional service are described-namely, bhakti (ordinary devotional service), suddha-bhakti (pure devotional service) and viddha-bhakti (mixed devotional service).

 

And of course back to that original gaff,

 

"This prescription is not from Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, who followed His teachings."

 

We see again, that according to this approach, one must also reject Srila Prabhupada from being among such empowered representatives who followed his teachings, because in FACT it was part of his prescription according to his direct words. Holy Aparadha Batman!

 

And here we have a perfect example of....Poisoning.

 

HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami comes to the west, claiming to be the empowered Diksa Guru and Acharya for the Gaudiya Sampradaya. This is the first we hear of such. He gives us a way to understand the essence of the message of the past acharyas, by offering instruction on the matter.

 

But some decide they can understand the past Acharya's without first understanding the most current.

 

So they find themselves in a no mans land, and begin to attack the disciples of the Acharya using snippets from the teachings of past acharyas out of context just to appear to have superior knowledge of the intricacies of the various terms and tattvas involved, when in fact, in context, the terms were appropriately applied, though they have other applications on different levels of vision which are equally true, though not for consideration according to the CONTEXT.

 

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT.

 

IF the context is preaching with the Acharya's blessings, the preaching is clearly defendable.

 

If the context is preaching for self-aggrandizement without search for truth but simply the presumption of superior knowledge, the preaching is easily smashed.

 

In this instance a person did not come among a group of peers to submissively receive and carefully share the truth with integrity.

 

It was simply walking up to Audarya Fellowship Forums, and marking it with hormones, trying to egg someone into a mental pissing match.

 

Now, ask yourself this, what Gaudiya Vaisnava Acharya would approve of such antics, which end up excluding A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada from membership in the group of "Gaudiya Vaisnavas" by directly implying he diminished the use of the word Bhakti, and giving evidence from past Acharya's to rest his case.

 

The poison in the some of those wells along Radha Kund during Kali Yuga is quite potent. Those who indiscriminately drink will get Shuddha bhakti also.

 

Between now and then, I dare not guess what the present state of spiritual turmoil such persons are in for, but to each their own, I call em as I see em, and buyer beware. Here be dragons and pirahhnas, lions, tigers, and bears, Maya is crafty in applying her wares, Beware aspiring Bhakta Beware.

[Beggar]

 

I'm not too computer smart. How did you put the actual picture in your post?

[brajeshwara das]

 

I'm not too computer smart. How did you put the actual picture in your post?

 

Click the in the editor and put in the URL to your picture

 

Also it is easy to quote some text by highlighting the text and clicking the icon.

like this

[Guest guest]

The Varnasrama Social System

 

There is a natural system of social organization which can bring about a peaceful society where everyone is happy. This system is described in the timeless Vedic literature of India and it is called Varnasrama dharma.

 

 

The purpose of the Varnasrama social system is to provide a structure which allows people to work according to their natural tendencies and to organize society so that everyone, regardless of their position, makes spiritual advancement.

 

 

 

People can only work with a cooperative spirit if there is a central point. Over the years proponents of many different political ideologies have tried to unite society by providing such a central point, however, these attempts have all ultimately failed.

 

Generally people work for their own pleasure and this is sometimes extended to working for the family, the nation or even the whole world. Because the aims and aspirations of the members of society are so varied it is practically impossible to achieve a peaceful situation as everyone is working to fulfill his own personal goals.

 

The only universal central point around which everyone can work is God. He provides an absolute, eternal center for all our activities. If we try to make something else the central point the resulting society is doomed to fail.

 

The Varnasrama system recognizes there are many different types of people who may not be spiritually inclined. The society is organized under the direction of qualified brahmanas and is divided into four occupational and four spiritual divisions in such a way that everyone is serving God simply by performing their occupational duties. As the entire society is arranged to please God, anyone working within the society also pleases God.

 

 

 

 

The Structure of Varnasrama Society

The practical application of the Varnasrama system is to divide the society according to four occupational and four spiritual orders of life.

 

The Varnasrama system recognizes the natural talents and abilities of each person and provides work according to a persons qualities. There are four qualities of work, the brahmanas are the intellectual and priestly class, the ksatriyas are the government, the military and the administrative classes, the vaisyas are farmers and businessmen, and the sudras are workers.

 

There are also four spiritual divisions, brahmacary, student life, grhastha, married life, vanaprasta, retired life and sunnyasa, renounced life. If this system is properly implemented under the direction of qualified brahmanas the result will be peace and prosperity throughout the world.

 

 

The Corrupt Indian "Caste" System

The Varnasrama social divisions are based on qualities and work. If someone has the qualities of a brahmana and if they work as a brahmana they are accepted as a qualified brahmana. This system should not be confused with the corrupt "caste" system of India.

 

In India people claim to be brahmanas simply because they are born in a brahmana family even though they do not possess the qualifications or qualities of a brahmana and in most cases they are not working as brahmanas either..

 

The result of the corruption of the original system has been the destruction of the entire social structure in India and the "caste" system is now being used by the rich to exploit and oppress the poor.

 

 

Divisions According to Qualification

In Varnasrama society all members are equally important. An analogy comparing the social body to the human body is given to explain this. The brahmanas are the head of the body as they possess the intelligence and give directions to the other parts of the body. The ksatriyas are likened to the arms of the body as their business as administrators and the military is to protect the social body from threats from outside (attacks from enemies) and disruption from within. (Thieves and rogues).

 

The vaisyas are likened to the stomach. The stomach provides energy to the body. The vaisyas, as the productive class, are the farmers and businessman who produce and distribute food to the social body. The vaisyas are also responsible for protecting the cows.

 

The sudras are likened to the legs as they provide the manual labor required by the social body.

 

We look after our whole body. It is not that we attend to problems affecting the head and neglect problems in the legs. The body works as a coordinated unit and a problem anywhere in the body causes a disruption to the proper functioning of the whole body and is therefore immediately attended to.

 

The social body should work as a coordinated unit with different members of the society acting in their respective positions as brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras according to their qualities. The result will be a happy, peaceful and efficient society.

 

 

The Brahmanas

Although all members of the social body are important, as the brahmanas are the intelligent class directing society by giving guidance and advice to the king or government (ksatriyas), it is vital that they be properly qualified.

 

If the head of society is not functioning properly the whole social body is in trouble.

 

All over the world we are seeing misguided governments make the lives of their citizens hell, simply because they have no qualified brahmanas to give them advice.

 

The whole planet has become very unfortunate and disturbed due to such unqualified leadership.

 

The brahmana's position is that of an unpaid adviser to the king or government. The business of the brahmana is to understand the Vedic Scriptures and be expert in applying them in different places and at different times.

 

The Vedic system doesn't require the creation of any new rules or legislation The perfect laws have been given by Manu, the father of mankind in the Manu Samhita, and the qualified brahmana simply implements these timeless laws. There is no need for imperfect man made laws.

 

The qualities of a brahmana are given in the Bhagavad-gita as peacefulness, self control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness and all of these qualities must be actually manifest before someone can be accepted as a brahmana.

 

 

Giving Charity to the Brahmanas

On special days such as the birth of a child, marriage and other auspicious occasions it is customary for the ksatriyas and vaisyas to give in charity to the brahmanas. The ksatriya king is wealthy because in return for giving the citizens protection he levies taxes. The vaisya farmers and businessmen are wealthy because of their farming and trading activity. The brahmana takes whatever small amount is required to maintain himself and his family and he distributes the rest of the charity he receives for the benefit of thepeople in general.

 

Because the brahmana is intelligent and an expert in spiritual matters he can understand how best to distribute charity. It is for this reason in Vedic society charity is given to the brahmanas. It is not very intelligent to give charity to unqualified persons, for they will simply squander it. For example if you give a drunkard money, it will be used for purchasing alcohol, not food. Such charity is charity in the mode of ignorance and is not very auspicious.

 

 

 

 

The ksatriyas

The ksatriyas take the positions of king or politicians and the military.They administer society according to the directions and advice of the brahmanas.

 

Their qualities are given in the Bhagavad-gita as heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership.

 

 

The Perfect King

A good ksatriya king is strong and just, he acts according to the advice of the brahmanas, he is loved by the law abiding citizens and feared as death personified by the thieves and rogues.

 

In a country ruled by a qualified ksatriya king the citizens are protected and thus they develop good qualities and are peaceful and happy. Because the king is strong and honest the citizens have no fear of being disturbed by thieves and rogues or by attacks from invading armies. They also have no fear of being plundered by unfair or exorbitant taxation or dishonest government officers, as such a strong king will quickly correct any corruption within his own ministry.

 

The lives of many saintly kings are described in Srimad Bhagavatam and we recommend those interested m hearing more about the the qualities and activities of such great souls study the Srimad Bhagavatam..

 

 

The Problem With Modern Government

In modern governments we find many politicians and government officers who are simply interested in a good salary and a comfortable life. They achieve this for themselves and their colleagues by levying exorbitant taxes and creating an ineffectual and bureaucratic top heavy government.

 

The citizens under the rule of such an unqualified government are most unfortunate. They are not protected from thieves and rogues from within the country. Instead they are exploited by the governments taxation system. Excessive taxation is levied to maintain the ineffectual top heavy bureaucratic system. No one can be happy in such a difficult position

 

 

Selection of Members of the Government

Unless a person has the qualities of a ksatriya he should not be given the position of king, president, prime minister, minister or a military man.

 

If the men in these positions do not have the qualities of a ksatriya (heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership) then the government becomes unworkable and the society suffers due to lack of protection.

 

Currently, all over the world, the people in general are suffering because the governments of the world are full of unqualified persons who have no idea of the process of creating a fair society and maintaining law and order.

 

 

 

 

The vaisyas

The vaisyas are responsible principally for the production food and the protection of the cows. It is the duty of the brahmanas to understand the Vedic Scriptures and give guidance to the ksatriya government and military who, in turn give directions to the vaisyas and the sudras.

 

The qualities of a vaisya are given in the Bhagavad-gita as farming, cow protection and business and they work to provide the society with the required food, clothing and other goods.

 

 

The sudras

The sudras have little intelligence and must therefore be engaged in the service of one of the other three classes.

 

Their occupation is to perform manual labor, give service and to engage in arts and craftsmanship.

 

The sudras are unable to support themselves independently therefore they must take shelter of an employer who can direct and provide for them.

 

It is described in this age of Kali almost everyone is a sudra. We can actually see society is now so degraded that practically everyone must work as a sudra by serving an employer.

 

Only the sudras take such employment, the brahmanas simply depend on God and this way they get everything required. They receive charity from members of the other divisions of society. The ksatriya has some land and collects taxes from the citizens and the vaisya makes some money by trading farm produce and doing business. Only the sudras depend on someone else for their maintenance.

 

If proper education is provided then the sudras who have the capacity to learn can be elevated to higher positions in the social structure.

 

A society of sudras means a society of chaos as sudras don't have the intelligence to organize society, therefore, there is great need to train qualified brahmanas to reestablish the "head" of the social body. If this is done there is certainly hope for the future

[bhaktatraveler]

 

The Varnasrama Social System

 

 

There is a natural system of social organization which can bring about a peaceful society where everyone is happy. This system is described in the timeless Vedic literature of India and it is called Varnasrama dharma.

 

 

The purpose of the Varnasrama social system is to provide a structure which allows people to work according to their natural tendencies and to organize society so that everyone, regardless of their position, makes spiritual advancement.

 

 

 

People can only work with a cooperative spirit if there is a central point. Over the years proponents of many different political ideologies have tried to unite society by providing such a central point, however, these attempts have all ultimately failed.

 

Generally people work for their own pleasure and this is sometimes extended to working for the family, the nation or even the whole world. Because the aims and aspirations of the members of society are so varied it is practically impossible to achieve a peaceful situation as everyone is working to fulfill his own personal goals.

 

The only universal central point around which everyone can work is God. He provides an absolute, eternal center for all our activities. If we try to make something else the central point the resulting society is doomed to fail.

 

The Varnasrama system recognizes there are many different types of people who may not be spiritually inclined. The society is organized under the direction of qualified brahmanas and is divided into four occupational and four spiritual divisions in such a way that everyone is serving God simply by performing their occupational duties. As the entire society is arranged to please God, anyone working within the society also pleases God.

 

 

 

 

The Structure of Varnasrama Society

The practical application of the Varnasrama system is to divide the society according to four occupational and four spiritual orders of life.

 

The Varnasrama system recognizes the natural talents and abilities of each person and provides work according to a persons qualities. There are four qualities of work, the brahmanas are the intellectual and priestly class, the ksatriyas are the government, the military and the administrative classes, the vaisyas are farmers and businessmen, and the sudras are workers.

 

There are also four spiritual divisions, brahmacary, student life, grhastha, married life, vanaprasta, retired life and sunnyasa, renounced life. If this system is properly implemented under the direction of qualified brahmanas the result will be peace and prosperity throughout the world.

 

 

The Corrupt Indian "Caste" System

The Varnasrama social divisions are based on qualities and work. If someone has the qualities of a brahmana and if they work as a brahmana they are accepted as a qualified brahmana. This system should not be confused with the corrupt "caste" system of India.

 

In India people claim to be brahmanas simply because they are born in a brahmana family even though they do not possess the qualifications or qualities of a brahmana and in most cases they are not working as brahmanas either..

 

The result of the corruption of the original system has been the destruction of the entire social structure in India and the "caste" system is now being used by the rich to exploit and oppress the poor.

 

 

Divisions According to Qualification

In Varnasrama society all members are equally important. An analogy comparing the social body to the human body is given to explain this. The brahmanas are the head of the body as they possess the intelligence and give directions to the other parts of the body. The ksatriyas are likened to the arms of the body as their business as administrators and the military is to protect the social body from threats from outside (attacks from enemies) and disruption from within. (Thieves and rogues).

 

The vaisyas are likened to the stomach. The stomach provides energy to the body. The vaisyas, as the productive class, are the farmers and businessman who produce and distribute food to the social body. The vaisyas are also responsible for protecting the cows.

 

The sudras are likened to the legs as they provide the manual labor required by the social body.

 

We look after our whole body. It is not that we attend to problems affecting the head and neglect problems in the legs. The body works as a coordinated unit and a problem anywhere in the body causes a disruption to the proper functioning of the whole body and is therefore immediately attended to.

 

The social body should work as a coordinated unit with different members of the society acting in their respective positions as brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras according to their qualities. The result will be a happy, peaceful and efficient society.

 

 

The Brahmanas

Although all members of the social body are important, as the brahmanas are the intelligent class directing society by giving guidance and advice to the king or government (ksatriyas), it is vital that they be properly qualified.

 

If the head of society is not functioning properly the whole social body is in trouble.

 

All over the world we are seeing misguided governments make the lives of their citizens hell, simply because they have no qualified brahmanas to give them advice.

 

The whole planet has become very unfortunate and disturbed due to such unqualified leadership.

 

The brahmana's position is that of an unpaid adviser to the king or government. The business of the brahmana is to understand the Vedic Scriptures and be expert in applying them in different places and at different times.

 

The Vedic system doesn't require the creation of any new rules or legislation The perfect laws have been given by Manu, the father of mankind in the Manu Samhita, and the qualified brahmana simply implements these timeless laws. There is no need for imperfect man made laws.

 

The qualities of a brahmana are given in the Bhagavad-gita as peacefulness, self control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness and all of these qualities must be actually manifest before someone can be accepted as a brahmana.

 

 

Giving Charity to the Brahmanas

On special days such as the birth of a child, marriage and other auspicious occasions it is customary for the ksatriyas and vaisyas to give in charity to the brahmanas. The ksatriya king is wealthy because in return for giving the citizens protection he levies taxes. The vaisya farmers and businessmen are wealthy because of their farming and trading activity. The brahmana takes whatever small amount is required to maintain himself and his family and he distributes the rest of the charity he receives for the benefit of thepeople in general.

 

Because the brahmana is intelligent and an expert in spiritual matters he can understand how best to distribute charity. It is for this reason in Vedic society charity is given to the brahmanas. It is not very intelligent to give charity to unqualified persons, for they will simply squander it. For example if you give a drunkard money, it will be used for purchasing alcohol, not food. Such charity is charity in the mode of ignorance and is not very auspicious.

 

 

 

 

The ksatriyas

The ksatriyas take the positions of king or politicians and the military.They administer society according to the directions and advice of the brahmanas.

 

Their qualities are given in the Bhagavad-gita as heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership.

 

 

The Perfect King

A good ksatriya king is strong and just, he acts according to the advice of the brahmanas, he is loved by the law abiding citizens and feared as death personified by the thieves and rogues.

 

In a country ruled by a qualified ksatriya king the citizens are protected and thus they develop good qualities and are peaceful and happy. Because the king is strong and honest the citizens have no fear of being disturbed by thieves and rogues or by attacks from invading armies. They also have no fear of being plundered by unfair or exorbitant taxation or dishonest government officers, as such a strong king will quickly correct any corruption within his own ministry.

 

The lives of many saintly kings are described in Srimad Bhagavatam and we recommend those interested m hearing more about the the qualities and activities of such great souls study the Srimad Bhagavatam..

 

 

The Problem With Modern Government

In modern governments we find many politicians and government officers who are simply interested in a good salary and a comfortable life. They achieve this for themselves and their colleagues by levying exorbitant taxes and creating an ineffectual and bureaucratic top heavy government.

 

The citizens under the rule of such an unqualified government are most unfortunate. They are not protected from thieves and rogues from within the country. Instead they are exploited by the governments taxation system. Excessive taxation is levied to maintain the ineffectual top heavy bureaucratic system. No one can be happy in such a difficult position

 

 

Selection of Members of the Government

Unless a person has the qualities of a ksatriya he should not be given the position of king, president, prime minister, minister or a military man.

 

If the men in these positions do not have the qualities of a ksatriya (heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership) then the government becomes unworkable and the society suffers due to lack of protection.

 

Currently, all over the world, the people in general are suffering because the governments of the world are full of unqualified persons who have no idea of the process of creating a fair society and maintaining law and order.

 

 

 

 

The vaisyas

The vaisyas are responsible principally for the production food and the protection of the cows. It is the duty of the brahmanas to understand the Vedic Scriptures and give guidance to the ksatriya government and military who, in turn give directions to the vaisyas and the sudras.

 

The qualities of a vaisya are given in the Bhagavad-gita as farming, cow protection and business and they work to provide the society with the required food, clothing and other goods.

 

 

The sudras

The sudras have little intelligence and must therefore be engaged in the service of one of the other three classes.

 

Their occupation is to perform manual labor, give service and to engage in arts and craftsmanship.

 

The sudras are unable to support themselves independently therefore they must take shelter of an employer who can direct and provide for them.

 

It is described in this age of Kali almost everyone is a sudra. We can actually see society is now so degraded that practically everyone must work as a sudra by serving an employer.

 

Only the sudras take such employment, the brahmanas simply depend on God and this way they get everything required. They receive charity from members of the other divisions of society. The ksatriya has some land and collects taxes from the citizens and the vaisya makes some money by trading farm produce and doing business. Only the sudras depend on someone else for their maintenance.

 

If proper education is provided then the sudras who have the capacity to learn can be elevated to higher positions in the social structure.

 

A society of sudras means a society of chaos as sudras don't have the intelligence to organize society, therefore, there is great need to train qualified brahmanas to reestablish the "head" of the social body. If this is done there is certainly hope for the future

 

 

Finally something intelligent and in line with Prabhupada, agrement 'as it is'

 

CB-r

[theist]

Nice if academics are what is of interest. The earth is in a critical emergency situation, time is pressing. What is needed is for people to humble themselves before Krsna or God if they prefer and chant His name.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Nice if academics are what is of interest. The earth is in a critical emergency situation, time is pressing. What is needed is for people to humble themselves before Krsna or God if they prefer and chant His name.

 

Yes, but that is another conversation. we are on the eve of distruction, thank Krsna.

 

Like I've said for yrs the only way for DVD, will be full funding or Armagedon. Either one is good for me.

 

CB-r

[anadi]

 

…While Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was at Radha Kunda, the disciples of Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaja complained to him about the instructions they were receiving from their Gurudeva. They told him, "We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila. We have left everything, but our Gurudeva is telling us to grow brinjals (eggplant) and other vegetables and flowers for Thakurji. We did not come here to grow vegetables, flowers and fruits. Sir, should we return to our homes? We don't know what to do."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura told them, "You should try to serve your Gurudeva and follow his orders. You are chanting Hare Krsna, but you are full of anarthas (impurities) and cannot chant suddha-nama (the pure name). You may chant for thousands and thousands of births and not accomplish anything. It is good and proper that you follow your Gurudeva's instructions. You cannot remember the pastimes of Krsna while you are contaminated by these anarthas. If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart. …

1. This is not an argument, that one should follow varNa-ashram dharma.

The lecture was given because people left/ leave SBV Narayana M for babajis in Radha Kunda.

And as in Iskcon it is preached: “Don’t go to Gaudiya Mat, …“, in the same way in Gaudiya Mat is preached: “Don’t go to babajis, …

2. The qualification to hear about the pastimes of the gopis is

- neither to leave one’s home and go to sadhu (We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila.)

- nor to first get rid of anarthas, as Narayana M. would let the audience to believe:

"If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart."

In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly:

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja

will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.”

3. SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”

But

If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them?

This is not the process recommended by the shastra.

Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get.

According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result.

 

One should read those pastimes that have that degree of intimacy that not disturb but enhance one’s eager to serve the Lord in a most excellent way (vara dasya):

kintu rahasya-lIlA tu pauruSa-vikAravad indriyaiH pitR-putra-dAsa-bhAvaiz ca nopAsyA svIya-bhAva-virodhAt |

rahasyatvaM ca tasyAH kvacid alpAMzena kvacit tu sarvAMzeneti jJeyam || (Bhakti-sandarbha 338)

 

“However, those secret sports are not to be worshiped by those who experience male transformations in their senses, or by those who are in the moods of father, son and servant, for it would be contrary to their moods. Confidentiality is understood according to the partial or complete touching of limbs.”

 

Not everyone is eligible to hear particular confidential topics, which may describe mundane like sexual pastimes, but that doesn’t mean one should let away altogether the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis. Here it is an example:

 

<FONT face=Verdana>Radha says: “If yo want to see My Sundara (beautiful), you must take full shelter of My lotusfeet!”

First Radha – then Syama! The Manjaris say: “When <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> is

- neither to leave one’s home and go to sadhu (<b><font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> makes any trouble we’ll take Him by the hand and throw Him out of the Kunja!”

We are the maidservants of Radha!” But why do the kinkaris love <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>? Because He is the lover of Radha.

 

As <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> takes His supper in NandIzvara, a kinkari fans Him. Without being seen by others, Syama keeps His hand on that kinkaris foot, as a means of asking her: “Will I meet My Dearest one or not?” That maidservant then places one toe on Syama’s hand, indicating that a meeting will be possible. This is a very sweet confidential service some would like to experience.

(Syama sits on the floor, eating with His right hand and supporting Himself with His left hand.

With Her foot the kinkari touches a particular finger <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s, indicating a particular trysting Kunja where He can meet His beloved. This code was previously agreed upon. The assembly of elders is absorbed in speaking with each other and thus does not notice this intimate exchange between <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and the kinkari).

 

This is vara (the most excellent) dasya (service).

Although the manjaris are in the category of sakhis they are servants, because of their complete dedication to the Divine Couple.

The other sakhis may apparently have a superior position in the pastimes but the delight of the confidential service of the maJjarIs, and the tasting of the sweetness of Krishna by experiencing the loving feelings of Radha in Her dealings with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are far above the loving experiences the other sakhis have.

 

Only the manjaris can perform such intimate service. This is the most excellent (vara) service (dasya), which is attained by chanting the name of Radha:

<FONT color=green>Jaya jaya rAdha nAma vRndAvana yAra dhAma kRSNa sukha vilAsera nidhi <FONT color=black>(Narottama Dasa Thakura, in Prema Bhakti Candrka)

<FONT color=black>“Glory, glory to Radha’s name, that dwells in Vrindavan and that is the jewel of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s happy pastimes”.

<FONT color=black>

<FONT face=Arial><FONT color=black>From these pastimes the faithful devotee may understand the excellence of the service of the manjaris, and one may get an impetuous to serve the Lord in such intimate, sweet dealings.

PS

SBV Narayana M. too, used to give such small kathas about the dealings Krishnas with the gopis to nourish the transcendental loving mood of his disciples, and awake in them the eagerness to get such service as the gopis (particular manjaris).

[theist]

 

Yes, but that is another conversation. we are on the eve of distruction, thank Krsna.

 

Like I've said for yrs the only way for DVD, will be full funding or Armagedon. Either one is good for me.

 

CB-r

 

No it is not another discussion. It goes to show that your emphasis on everyone finding their own varna as a means to surrender is misplaced because even if it were possible to implement it there is no time.

 

When the house is own fire the firemen rush in to save the occupants. There is no thought of social status as to who gets rescued first. One daughter maybe a Phd. and the other a crack whore. They save who they can as they can without considering such things.

 

You say you tell everyone you meet including the clerk at the corner store about the need for DVD. Do you really expect someone to sign up as a sudra and surrender to your instructions because you are a kysatriya? Boy that clerk must forward to you coming in.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

No it is not another discussion. It goes to show that your emphasis on everyone finding their own varna as a means to surrender is misplaced because even if it were possible to implement it there is no time.

 

When the house is own fire the firemen rush in to save the occupants. There is no thought of social status as to who gets rescued first. One daughter maybe a Phd. and the other a crack whore. They save who they can as they can without considering such things.

 

You say you tell everyone you meet including the clerk at the corner store about the need for DVD. Do you really expect someone to sign up as a sudra and surrender to your instructions because you are a kysatriya? Boy that clerk must forward to you coming in.

 

 

I was tring to play nice with you, thinking I was maybe out of line here or there. But no. You take what attempt at preaching I do and ridicual the attempt. Demon type black snake mood/reaction, spiting fire at the devotees(?) preaching. Even if the attempt is from a less qualified devotee, at least I try. I try something instead of doing nothing. I do this in my life now, not in the ether with 10,000 posts of false ego:( I walk the walk. Come see if you are man enough, walk in my shoes for a week. See how I live. I challenge. Come to CB.

 

And yes I get smiles from the clerks I have regular contact with. I also have almost shaven(buzz, no gaurd) head, tilak and neck beads. But when I go to the schools or school board, they run or whatch there P's and Q's. Come with me, you are invited. Anyone who wants to call my bluff of quality of ksatriya is welcome to test. Short of violance. I live in Alachua. All cyber air.

 

Right now I'm conveying the idea of DVD, not to you appearently. Aways I'm giving reference from Prabhjupada and you never take and say 'no, I think it is ment to be understood like this because....' NO, just fire from the belly below, demon exposed.

 

You do not have to like me, I can take it. And then some! But in your hatred for me you have offended the order of Guru to do. If you throw this order for DVD out, then you are disqualified to speak on behalf of Srila Prabhupada and 10,600+ posts means d-ck. You can not pick and choose what you will follow, it is all or? to much junk you speak.

 

Like Prabhupada says.....

 

"Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krishna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society."

 

 

What fire are you talking about? Material existance? Who's house is on fire?Then DVD coupled to bhakti principles. It would appear that you are just a foolish critic pretending to be above such low DVD ideas.

 

 

Hare Krsna, Catrubahu das Bhakti-r

[Bhakta Devarsi]

I AM the great and powerful, most merciful and I am aTHEIST.

 

As I AM aTHEIST, I have come to the most profound understanding of my divinity.

 

As I stand here upon this high peak looking down upon all of you unwashed masses, it brings crocodile tears to my eyes. You are not capable of understanding how or who or what you were meant to be or do in this world amidst your lower carnal desires.

 

There is no hope for a gradual process of salvation, redemption, and falling in love with God for such fools as you. There is no time left, you have ruined everything.

 

ON YOUR KNEES and chant the names of God.

 

And you can thank me later, when you realize I was and am aTHEIST. And the only one who knows what is best for EVERYONE else.

 

Muahahahaha

 

 

Sorry if this seemed offensive to all you aTHEISTS out there, but this ruse has been already tried and my 12 year old neice could see through this, that is why I thought I would have a smashing good time with it, because it is so laughable.

 

Thanks to those athiests among us for such a hoot.

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

I AM the great and powerful, most merciful and I am aTHEIST.

 

As I AM aTHEIST, I have come to the most profound understanding of my divinity.

 

As I stand here upon this high peak looking down upon all of you unwashed masses, it brings crocodile tears to my eyes. You are not capable of understanding how or who or what you were meant to be or do in this world amidst your lower carnal desires.

 

There is no hope for a gradual process of salvation, redemption, and falling in love with God for such fools as you. There is no time left, you have ruined everything.

 

ON YOUR KNEES and chant the names of God.

 

And you can thank me later, when you realize I was and am aTHEIST. And the only one who knows what is best for EVERYONE else.

 

Muahahahaha

 

 

Hare Krsna

 

Funny, but this is the way I imagine you Go figure!

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Funny, but this is the way I imagine you Go figure!

 

Makes perfect sense coming from you. Logic, love it.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

Makes perfect sense coming from you. Logic, love it.

 

CB-r

 

Why was that not unexpected?

[bhaktatraveler]

Anyone with somthing serious? Relivent, new questions only please, save the rehash for another time.

 

Someone could start a DVD questions rehash thread. Ask the same questions and continually reject Srila Prabhupada's answer. Saying such immortal quibits as 'where does Prabhupada say where, when, how, why, who.' Over and over and over.

 

CB-r