Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[anadi]

Dear guest,

you quoted me and said:

 

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> Originally Posted by anadi

"Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy."

The essence of Varnashrama abhideya is karma (acting according the rules of <st1:city><st1:place>varna</st1:place></st1:city> and ashram) and it produces artha - economical prosperity, by which the material desires <st1:place>Kama</st1:place> are satisfied.

And as you can see Varnashrama abhideya has nothing to do with Bhakti abhideya in bhakti-dharma, which is nitya dharma.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->and you first replied:

Anadi you used to preach the philosophy of Narayana Maharaja and now you are preaching what you have heard from Madhavananda and the Babajis of Vraja. But why?

Reply:

1. What I have written, I have heard it neither from Madhavananda nor from the Babajis of Vraja.

2. It is Bhagavad-gita that I carefully studied avoiding the twisted translalations of the verses, and the purports , where BV Svami, translates the varna-ashram dharma and karma-yoga as bhakti-yoga, which is not proper, than both systems have different sadhanas and different goals, than bhakti.

It might be that someone could object that a pure devotee would see everything in terms of bhakti. But it is also to object that when the pure devotee starts to preach, it is supposed that he

should come on the level of madyam devotee and understand and explain the differences, otherwise it is all one … and whatever we do is bhakti, (and it isn’t).

 

What is below is neither from Madhavananda das nor from the babajis of Radha Kunda, is "abc" siddhanta explained in the beginning of Bhagavad-gita:

 

1. Varnashram dharma is naimitik dharma – occasional nature of duty, and as such comprise another abhideya than bhakti, which is nitya dharma.

Not all the roads lead to the same destination.

Sri Krishna Himself taught in the beginning of His discourse to Arjuna varNa-azrama dharma, the first level of perfection.

niyataḿ kuru karma tvaḿ / karma jyāyo hy akarmaṇaḥ

śarīra-yātrāpi ca te / na prasiddhyed akarmaṇaḥ BG 3.8

 

Perform always (niyataM) your duty (karma), for doing so is certainly(hi) better than do akarma. One maintains himself through karma.

 

This kind of instructions on the first level of perfection are linked with sacrifices to the demigods which in change will give material prosperity. The demigods are not able to give liberation from the material world, being themselves under the spell of material energy – maya.

 

saha-yajñāḥ prajāḥ sṛṣṭvā / purovāca prajāpatiḥ

anena prasaviṣyadhvam / eṣa vo 'stv iṣṭa-kāma-dhuk

BG 3.10

 

In the beginning of creation, the Lord of the creatures (praja-pati – BrahmA) sent forth generations (of men and demigods), along with sacrifice, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajJa [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily."

 

devān bhāvayatānena / te devā bhāvayantu vaḥ

parasparaḿ bhāvayantaḥ / śreyaḥ param avāpsyatha

BG 3.11

 

The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you, and thus, by cooperation between men and demigods, prosperity will reign for all.

 

The essence of Varnashrama abhideya is karma (acting according the rules of varna and ashram) and it produces artha - economical prosperity, by which the material desires Kama are satisfied.

And as you can see Varnashrama abhideya has nothing to do with Bhakti abhideya in bhakti-dharma, which is nitya dharma.

Establishing Varnashram dharma as a means to make bhakti easier is false, because

1. there are no other qualifications for bhakti than the association with the carrier of bhakti, and varNa-ashram dharma is not.

2. Practicing Varna-ashram dharma as taught in the scriptures, and as delineated by Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-gita has nothing to do with bhakti, that is why the same <st1:place w:st="kAma</st1:place"> can be satisfied. </st1:place>

Krishna" as="" sri="" caitanya="" –="" the="" avatar="" of="" love,="" rejected="" it.=""></st1:place><br">

3. All the endeavors for something else than bhakti, with the idea that will help bhakti is false, but ... under circumstances they might be seen as saNga-siddha bhakti when performed in association with the limbs of sadhana bhakti.

</st1:place>

Krishna gives a hint to Arjuna, that he should follow his khsatria dharma on the battle field, and not lament saying he would like to become a monk, by giving an example:

 

Kings such as Janaka attained perfection solely by performance of karma (prescribed duties). Therefore, just for the sake of educating the people in general, you should perform your karma. (Bg. 3.20)

 

In this connection there is a wide spread confusion regarding the meaning of karma.

 

Bhagavan, Sri Krishna explains the meaning of karma :

 

karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ

akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ

 

(Bhagavat-gita 4.17)

 

Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound.

 

1.Vikarma - acting against the prescribed duty , leads to a miserable destiny and destin-ation.

 

2. Akarma, not acting according the prescribed duty in varna-ashrama, can be

- akarma – rejecting varna-ashrama dharma due to ignorance, which is vikarma.

- akarma - rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in activities for the attainment of mukti (salvation - liberation from the bondage of this illusory material energy - maya)

- akarma rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in devotional activities (bhakti) - for the attainment of divine love prema

 

3. Karma, is the action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order, which leads to the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord Hari.

 

Nowadays karma is understood as general activity, which doesn’t corespond the original meaning of the vedic word.

 

karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed / akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ

sa buddhimān manuṣyeṣu / sa yuktaḥ kṛtsna-karma-kṛt

(Bhagavat-gita 4.18 )

 

That person endowed with discrimination power (intelligence) buddhimAn, sees inaction in karma and action in akarma. That person is linked (with the spiritual world), although she acts (in this world).

 

The meaning is that for a transcendentaly situated person, situated beyond the modes of material nature, karma (action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order) is akarma, in the sense that karma is not related to the eternal nature of the soul: shuddha bhakti – loving service to The All Attractive,

and such a person sees akarma – not following the prescribed duties of varNa-asharam system, which are due to the false indentification of the soul with temporary denominations of the material body, as real activity – karma, when it is related to the real identity of the soul – a loving servant, friend, parent, or erotic lover of the Lord- which encompasses the nitya dharma – the real nature of the soul.

[Guest guest]

I can understand the importance of this DVD system but what I don't understand is why some proponents of DVD thing the 4 regulative principles didn't apply to everyone.

 

We can't use the example of Bhima because he was specifically allowed by Sri Krishna Himself (correct me if I'm wrong) considering Bhima's requirements. There aren't any warriors left of his calibre that need meat to sustaina dn besides how many of the current day warriors live in a forest?

 

I think the 4 regulative principles apply to everyone regardless of varna. Your thoughts?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I can understand the importance of this DVD system but what I don't understand is why some proponents of DVD thing the 4 regulative principles didn't apply to everyone.

 

We can't use the example of Bhima because he was specifically allowed by Sri Krishna Himself (correct me if I'm wrong) considering Bhima's requirements. There aren't any warriors left of his calibre that need meat to sustaina dn besides how many of the current day warriors live in a forest?

 

I think the 4 regulative principles apply to everyone regardless of varna. Your thoughts?

 

Hare Krsna

 

Just read the "hunter vow to narada" thread, and this question will be answered. Srila Prabhupada seemed to believe, at the time, that changes needed to be made, and he was crystal clear about what they were.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna prabhu. Thank you, I'll read the thread.

 

 

Hare Krsna

 

Just read the "hunter vow to narada" thread, and this question will be answered. Srila Prabhupada seemed to believe, at the time, that changes needed to be made, and he was crystal clear about what they were.

[theist]

 

Hare Krsna prabhu. Thank you, I'll read the thread.

 

Please give specific attention to the quote in the first post.

[Guest guest]

Dear Theist prabhu,

 

When I read your request, I went back to that thread and read that first post again. In my opinion, it can't get any more straightforward than that. The instruction is very clear-

 

"<font face=Monotype Corsiva" size=5 color="red"><B><I>The disciple must vow that he will no longer commit sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication.</font></B></I>"

 

And consider this ... this is an instruction given to a hunter! How then can someone justify killing animals when his profession is not even that of a hunter? In my opinion (considering the instructions given in Sastra), one must abstain from cruelty to animals, regardless of varna.

 

 

Please give specific attention to the quote in the first post.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Dear Theist prabhu,

 

When I read your request, I went back to that thread and read that first post again. In my opinion, it can't get any more straightforward than that. The instruction is very clear-

 

"The disciple must vow that he will no longer commit sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication."

 

And consider this ... this is an instruction given to a hunter! How then can someone justify killing animals when his profession is not even that of a hunter? In my opinion (considering the instructions given in Sastra), one must abstain from cruelty to animals, regardless of varna.

 

Why not instead look to the instructions that Srila Prabhupada gave to the leaders of his uniquely manifested institution. Srila Prabhupada explicitly said that Sudra's could eat meat, that they were to receive 2nd initiation and would be considered recognized as his disciples, he gave the exact circumstances under which they could, that they would get the perfection.

Perhaps he had a plan to purify such people of their desire to eat meat?? To get them to gradually committ less and less offenses against the holy name??

 

Imagine that, a shaktavesha avatara having mercy on meat eaters.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

That could be a tricky situation. You could have all these meat-eating folks claiming to be sudra and thereby authorized to eat meat with no attempt to give it up. In effect, the 4 regulative principles would become 3 because in kali-yuga, everyone is a Sudra. Therefore everyone can eat meat according to your post.

 

I don't think it was intended that way. The DVD system is great but the 4 principles cannot be compromised within that system.

 

 

Why not instead look to the instructions that Srila Prabhupada gave to the leaders of his uniquely manifested institution. Srila Prabhupada explicitly said that Sudra's could eat meat, that they were to receive 2nd initiation and would be considered recognized as his disciples, he gave the exact circumstances under which they could, that they would get the perfection.

Perhaps he had a plan to purify such people of their desire to eat meat?? To get them to gradually committ less and less offenses against the holy name??

 

Imagine that, a shaktavesha avatara having mercy on meat eaters.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

i

That could be a tricky situation. You could have all these meat-eating folks claiming to be sudra and thereby authorized to eat meat with no attempt to give it up. In effect, the 4 regulative principles would become 3 because in kali-yuga, everyone is a Sudra. Therefore everyone can eat meat according to your post.

 

I don't think it was intended that way. The DVD system is great but the 4 principles cannot be compromised within that system.

 

Well, your thinking (speculating) aside, this already happens every day, so many claiming to be this or that, and using that as an excuse to wallow in material life.

 

Everyone is to be "considered" sudra, until they begin to chant and dance and associate, and then they are to be assessed by emerging symptoms as to what their varna occupation in the Krsna Consciousness movement is, not that they remain sudra.

 

No offense intended guest, but you are showing the symptoms of not even knowing some basics, and this conversation is going way over your head.

 

Perhaps some diligence applied on your part would help this out.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

Bm

[Guest guest]

Since you believe this conversation is way over my head, let's not waste any more time explaining things to each other. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

Good luck with your efforts though.

 

 

i

 

Well, your thinking (speculating) aside, this already happens every day, so many claiming to be this or that, and using that as an excuse to wallow in material life.

 

Everyone is to be "considered" sudra, until they begin to chant and dance and associate, and then they are to be assessed by emerging symptoms as to what their varna occupation in the Krsna Consciousness movement is, not that they remain sudra.

 

No offense intended guest, but you are showing the symptoms of not even knowing some basics, and this conversation is going way over your head.

 

Perhaps some diligence applied on your part would help this out.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

Bm

[theist]

 

Dear Theist prabhu,

 

When I read your request, I went back to that thread and read that first post again. In my opinion, it can't get any more straightforward than that. The instruction is very clear-

 

"The disciple must vow that he will no longer commit sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication."

 

And consider this ... this is an instruction given to a hunter! How then can someone justify killing animals when his profession is not even that of a hunter? In my opinion (considering the instructions given in Sastra), one must abstain from cruelty to animals, regardless of varna.

 

Yes it is as clear an instruction as is possible. Yet the animal killing advocates just try to ignore it. Amazing.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Yes it is as clear an instruction as is possible. Yet the animal killing advocates just try to ignore it. Amazing.

 

Srila Prabhupada advicates killing practice for the ksatriya, you are on the edge of aparadhi. Oh! I forgot you are not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Still you are on the edge.

 

Not rejected, augmented by Srila Prabhupada.......you reject the augmentation. Natural in your present condition.

 

Conv. 3/14/74

 

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

Hridayananda: What he kills.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

 

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

 

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition

 

(End quote)

 

That means reg's are intact.

Similary sex life in marriage is the example of how to understand regulated meat eating.

 

Later in the same conversation......

 

 

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

 

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hridayananda: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

 

Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

 

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kshatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun.

 

 

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

Caturbahu prabhu ... so what kinds of meat do you eat?

 

I ask because chicken & fish are hardly challenging kills, in that it won't help your Ksatriya skills. So I imagine you're probably killing some of the bigger animals and eating them. Please pardon me if the question sounds offensive but it's a delicate subject and there must be more clarity, so the question.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada advicates killing practice for the ksatriya, you are on the edge of aparadhi. Oh! I forgot you are not a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Still you are on the edge.

 

Not rejected, augmented by Srila Prabhupada.......you reject the augmentation. Natural in your present condition.

 

Conv. 3/14/74

 

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

Hridayananda: What he kills.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

 

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

 

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition

 

(End quote)

 

That means reg's are intact.

Similary sex life in marriage is the example of how to understand regulated meat eating.

 

Later in the same conversation......

 

 

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

 

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hridayananda: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

 

Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

 

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kshatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun.

 

 

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

 

Yes it is as clear an instruction as is possible. Yet the animal killing advocates just try to ignore it. Amazing.

 

If the DVD theorists were right, I believe most of the world would take to Krishna Consciousness like fish to water. Meat eating allowed and perhaps a little bit of intoxication. So why not. And needless to say, most of them would choose the Sudra or Ksatriya varna so they can eat meat & carry weapons.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Caturbahu prabhu ... so what kinds of meat do you eat?

 

I ask because chicken & fish are hardly challenging kills, in that it won't help your Ksatriya skills. So I imagine you're probably killing some of the bigger animals and eating them. Please pardon me if the question sounds offensive but it's a delicate subject and there must be more clarity, so the question.

 

 

Not delicate to me, Guru has spoken, I'm only repeating.

Ksatriya killing means dangerous animals, boar, bear, big cats. Deer is also included though. No birds, rabbits, fish or any of the sudra type offerings to Mother Durga.

 

The hunt must be by stalking and not hidden then shooting. Nor feeding, then waiting in a tree. Like a big cat you will not have 100% success, many misses, much stealthy walking, stalking. Great fun for the wariror mind.

 

 

SB 6.4.9

 

TRANSLATION

By nature’s arrangement, fruits and flowers are considered the food of insects and birds; grass and other legless living entities are meant to be the food of four-legged animals like cows and buffalo; animals that cannot use their front legs as hands are meant to be the food of animals like tigers, which have claws; and four-legged animals like deer and goats, as well as food grains, are meant to be the food of human beings.

 

PURPORT

By nature’s law, or the arrangement of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one kind of living entity is eatable by other living entities. As mentioned herein, dvi-padam ca catush-padah: the four-legged animals (catush-padah), as well as food grains, are eatables for human beings (dvi-padam). These four-legged animals are those such as deer and goats, not cows, which are meant to be protected. Generally the men of the higher classes of society—the brahmanas, kshatriyas and vaisyas—do not eat meat. Sometimes kshatriyas go to the forest to kill animals like deer because they have to learn the art of killing, and sometimes they eat the animals also. Sudras, too, eat animals such as goats.

 

 

 

CB-r

[bhaktatraveler]

 

If the DVD theorists were right, I believe most of the world would take to Krishna Consciousness like fish to water. Meat eating allowed and perhaps a little bit of intoxication. So why not. And needless to say, most of them would choose the Sudra or Ksatriya varna so they can eat meat & carry weapons.

 

 

This is not a license for a free for all either. Still restictions are in place. Like sex for procreation, it is once a month only. Intoxiction also, same same, 1 time a month for sudra.

 

But I agree, that this could be a new wave to hit the bead bags for 16 rounds. Plus 4 varnas and 4 asrama, a killer combo. Pun intended.

 

No unresticted gun carring for sudra, only in service to ksatriyas. On duty, like for guarding.

 

Hare Krsna,

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

This killing of animals is a degraded and cruel activity

 

You people who think you are kshatriyas should realize the messages the scriptures are trying to convey to you: you are in ignorance and you need to rise to a higher stage of consciousness. Killing animals will never bring you to the perfection of life. It will take you to a rebirth in an animal body where you will suffer the reaction you deserve for your cruel hobby of hunting.

 

Homosexuals say their activity is approved by certain statements in the Vedas which they misinterpret. People who love intoxication say that is approved by the Vedas too, and they drown the pure consciousness of the soul with substances that degrade them. Men who love gambling will quote the example of Kalidas. But this is all wrong. Sin is sin. Karma and pain are the natural results of sin.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

This killing of animals is a degraded and cruel activity

 

You people who think you are kshatriyas should realize the messages the scriptures are trying to convey to you: you are in ignorance and you need to rise to a higher stage of consciousness. Killing animals will never bring you to the perfection of life. It will take you to a rebirth in an animal body where you will suffer the reaction you deserve for your cruel hobby of hunting.

 

Homosexuals say their activity is approved by certain statements in the Vedas which they misinterpret. People who love intoxication say that is approved by the Vedas too, and they drown the pure consciousness of the soul with substances that degrade them. Men who love gambling will quote the example of Kalidas. But this is all wrong. Sin is sin. Karma and pain are the natural results of sin.

 

In spiritual discussions, opinions are practically worthless unless directly backed up by Guru Sadhu or Sastra.

 

BG 17.15

 

"When speaking in spiritual circles, one's statements must be upheld by the scriptures. One should at once quote from scriptural authority to back up what he is saying."

 

Your having opinions is part of human nature, but their value as evidence to make a point in this discussion have little if any value if your are actually hoping to persuade anyone with spiritual discrimination.

 

If you are just looking for blind followers who are impressed that you can articulate arguements, then you may be on to something.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Conversation 3/14/74 Vrndaban

 

Prabhupada: They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Krishna conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.

 

Vishnujana: Preliminary.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion.

Otherwise, how the brain will work?

 

Vishnujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Krishna consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they’ll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Krishna consciousness. And this is the method—varnasrama.

 

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

 

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hridayananda: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But ...if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing

 

Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

 

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kshatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, “Oh, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?” Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That’s all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men. Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

[bhaktatraveler]

 

That could be a tricky situation. You could have all these meat-eating folks claiming to be sudra and thereby authorized to eat meat with no attempt to give it up. In effect, the 4 regulative principles would become 3 because in kali-yuga, everyone is a Sudra. Therefore everyone can eat meat according to your post.

 

I don't think it was intended that way. The DVD system is great but the 4 principles cannot be compromised within that system.

 

 

Prabhupada says that the restriction is not for encouragement, but a deterrent to the slaughterhouse and unregulated killing of animals. And equates the once a month meat reg to be the same as once a month sex reg in marriage. Still concidered that 4 regs are intact. Regulation means restriction.

 

This is from Srila Prabhupada and not some concoctions of a fertal mind like so much now days is. It is not for us to speculate and give OUR opinion. Take the opinion of Guru and be safe, otherwise we tread a dangerous path. I have stayed true and not post contrary to Prabhupada. The nay sayers should take note that I have given a true account and 'they' are contrary. This is from Prabhupada's vani, not made up.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhatki-raja

[anadi]

Shakti-fan on Varnashram-dharma said that:

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja said in

Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002 :

"Most Radha Kunda babajis are doing just that, mixing illicitly with widows and having children with them; they are not doing any real bhajana.

"Do not fall down like them. You should follow your Gurudeva's orders; engage your energy in growing fruits and vegetables to offer to Thakurji or to a pure Vaisnava. You should also chant the holy name, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna."

 

 

 

 

Reply

 

Only very few “sadhus” in Radha-kunda are in this category, they are usually the exception, by which even the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas are bewildered.

The matter of fact they are not babajis. They have never accepted babaji vesha (which is the stage of renunciation similar to sannyasi in other vaishnava sampradayas) from any traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava, and give themselves as "sadhus".

 

Here it is an excerpt from the life of the Gauranga Dasa (Babaji), disciple of Jagadisha Dasa Babaji:

 

Once Gauranga Dasa ji went to Radha-kunda. There he was invited by some "sadhu", whom he had not known before, to stay with him in Radha-kunda for some time. He accepted the invitation. But he had stayed with him only for one night when he discovered that that "sadhu" belonged to a pseudo-religious sect, in which woman and wine were parts of the sadhana. The next morning he left his company. But he found that his heart was empty. The subtle effect of the company of the unholy man had blocked his vision and he was not able to see Krishna-lila. He felt choked like a fish, who suddenly find that the water of the pond in which it lived, has dried up. Immediately he started for the parikrama (circumbulating) of Giri-raja Hill . It was the month of June, when the sun is hottest. He was walking the whole day in the scorching heat of the sun and praying to Giri-raja. In the evening he felt tired and lay down for rest on a step of the staircase of Uddhava-kunda. But he fell asleep. It was dangerous to sleep on the step, because, if he turned sides in sleep, he would fall into the kunda (pond). When he woke up he found that someone had lifted him and laid him at a safer place. He looked all round to see who that person could be. But to his surprise he found that no one was anywhere near that place.

Next day he went to his guru, Jagadisha Dasa Babaji in Vrindavan. No sooner had he laid himself prostrate before his feet than he shouted, “Like a fool you sleep wherever you like. You do not know where to sleep and where not to sleep.”

Gauranga Dasa understood that it was Baba, who had lifted him from the step of Uddhava-kund. This brought him the realization that Gurudeva followed the disciple like a shadow wherever he went and protected him. This realization brought tears in his eyes.

Gauranga Dasa then told Baba about the loss of vision he had suffered on account of his meeting with the so called sadhu in RAdha-kunda, and prayed for his blessings. Baba blessed him and his vision was restored.

 

 

PS

this post has been previously deleted, and there is only an explanation that the rumours that the babajis of Radha-kunda sleep with widows and drink wine has no support, hope nobody got offended.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Shakti-fan on Varnashram-dharma said that:

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja said in

Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002 :

"Most Radha Kunda babajis are doing just that, mixing illicitly with widows and having children with them; they are not doing any real bhajana.

"Do not fall down like them. You should follow your Gurudeva's orders; engage your energy in growing fruits and vegetables to offer to Thakurji or to a pure Vaisnava. You should also chant the holy name, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna."

 

 

 

 

Reply

 

Only very few “sadhus” in Radha-kunda are in this category, they are usually the exception, by which even the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas are bewildered.

The matter of fact they are not babajis. They have never accepted babaji vesha (which is the stage of renunciation similar to sannyasi in other vaishnava sampradayas) from any traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava, and give themselves as "sadhus".

 

Here it is an excerpt from the life of the Gauranga Dasa (Babaji), disciple of Jagadisha Dasa Babaji:

 

Once Gauranga Dasa ji went to Radha-kunda. There he was invited by some "sadhu", whom he had not known before, to stay with him in Radha-kunda for some time. He accepted the invitation. But he had stayed with him only for one night when he discovered that that "sadhu" belonged to a pseudo-religious sect, in which woman and wine were parts of the sadhana. The next morning he left his company. But he found that his heart was empty. The subtle effect of the company of the unholy man had blocked his vision and he was not able to see Krishna-lila. He felt choked like a fish, who suddenly find that the water of the pond in which it lived, has dried up. Immediately he started for the parikrama (circumbulating) of Giri-raja Hill . It was the month of June, when the sun is hottest. He was walking the whole day in the scorching heat of the sun and praying to Giri-raja. In the evening he felt tired and lay down for rest on a step of the staircase of Uddhava-kunda. But he fell asleep. It was dangerous to sleep on the step, because, if he turned sides in sleep, he would fall into the kunda (pond). When he woke up he found that someone had lifted him and laid him at a safer place. He looked all round to see who that person could be. But to his surprise he found that no one was anywhere near that place.

Next day he went to his guru, Jagadisha Dasa Babaji in Vrindavan. No sooner had he laid himself prostrate before his feet than he shouted, “Like a fool you sleep wherever you like. You do not know where to sleep and where not to sleep.”

Gauranga Dasa understood that it was Baba, who had lifted him from the step of Uddhava-kund. This brought him the realization that Gurudeva followed the disciple like a shadow wherever he went and protected him. This realization brought tears in his eyes.

Gauranga Dasa then told Baba about the loss of vision he had suffered on account of his meeting with the so called sadhu in RAdha-kunda, and prayed for his blessings. Baba blessed him and his vision was restored.

 

 

PS

this post has been previously deleted, and there is only an explanation that the rumours that the babajis of Radha-kunda sleep with widows and drink wine has no support, hope nobody got offended.

Are you sure you have the right topic for this post Anadi?

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

QUOTE

When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura saw that many babajis were now bogus, that they were with widow matajis and producing sons, he became very furious and said that we will again accept the same saffron cloth of others like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Mahaprabhu, and Isvara Puripada. He then preached everywhere in the world. At that time, those family persons who were of loose character and had no status in society honored these bogus babajis. That is why Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura re-introduced the reddish cloth and sannyasa. Presently, those who are bogus persons, but were previously in the Gaudiya Matha, have become lusty and have thus been kicked out from the Gaudiya Matha. Now they have become babajis.”

QUOTE

 

This is very nice. But after BSST we so dozens of sannyasis fall down, often in unmentionable ways. So what did this change of clothes and titles solve? Now we not only have bogus babajis but we have numerous scandals involving Gaudiya Math and Iskcon sannyasis.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

QUOTE

When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura saw that many babajis were now bogus, that they were with widow matajis and producing sons, he became very furious and said that we will again accept the same saffron cloth of others like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Mahaprabhu, and Isvara Puripada. He then preached everywhere in the world. At that time, those family persons who were of loose character and had no status in society honored these bogus babajis. That is why Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura re-introduced the reddish cloth and sannyasa. Presently, those who are bogus persons, but were previously in the Gaudiya Matha, have become lusty and have thus been kicked out from the Gaudiya Matha. Now they have become babajis.”

QUOTE

 

This is very nice. But after BSST we so dozens of sannyasis fall down, often in unmentionable ways. So what did this change of clothes and titles solve? Now we not only have bogus babajis but we have numerous scandals involving Gaudiya Math and Iskcon sannyasis.

 

 

Now it is a DVD point This has to be checked by ksatriyas, that no cheating in the varnas and asrama goes on. Ksatriyas must step in and rearrange this deviant behavior out of the brahminical varna and into the gutter as it should be.

 

This is the social finction/duty of ksatriya, to check 4 varnas and 4 asramas.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[anadi]

From post #286

Quote:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> Bhakta Devarsi

If the prescription is, "In my assessment of your presently manifested symptoms, Y'all are situated in the modes of nature, bereft of anything but a minute sentiment for Krsna, which you just got when you met me, and therefore divide up and practice Daivi Varnashrama Dharma so you can gradually attain the goal of Shudda Bhakti.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->My reply

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Quote:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> anadi

This prescription is not from Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, who followed His teachings.

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You replyed (Bhakta Devarsi):

And of course it was a paraphrase of mine, and when I later went on to give direct evidence that Srila Prabhupada did prescribe the DVD system to "everyone" in his Iskcon society.

But dear bhaka devarsi,

This is exactly the problem “Srila Prabhupada” ordered to introduce a system which has nothing to do with bhakti, than such a path was taught neither by Sri Caitanya nor by His empowered representatives from Vrindavan,.

And you continued:

And then (I) logically concluded that since a purpose of Iskcon was to assist US in attaining the highest perfection, Shuddha Bhakti, that I was speaking in line with the Siddhanta. <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

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Reply

Most clearly, you don’t speak in the line with siddhanta, because there, there is no injunction to introduce varnashrama dharma to help one in practicing bhakti; see please my post #251

You speak in the line with “Prabhupada”, not siddhanta as taught by Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan,