Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[anadi]

From post #286

Dear bhakta devarsi you quoted me

Quote:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> anadi

"Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assists his disciple in making conscious that loving relation."

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

And The definition of bhakti for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas has been clearly stated by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to<st1:place><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>.<u1:p></u1:p>

It must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma.

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and quoted your (bhakta devarsi) replied

 

So at this point I tell him he is using a narrow definition of Bhakti to try to defeat me by attempting to show that my use of the word Bhakti is not applicable to my contention and thus my contention is not to be taken seriously.

And quted a part of my (anadi's) answer:

The definition of Bhakti (as) Shuddha Bhakti is not a “narrow” definition, but the true definition of Bhakti. When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p>

This definition of bhakti was given by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

Than your (bhakta devarsi's) final reply was:

To which I put forth the following to smash this crafty diversion once and for all.

...in the Purport: Adi <st1:time minute="21" hour="16">4:21</st1:time>-22 (”Prabhupada" wrote)

In the Caitanya-caritamrta three kinds of devotional service are described-namely, bhakti (ordinary devotional service), suddha-bhakti (pure devotional service) and viddha-bhakti (mixed devotional service).

Reply:

 

This definition of types of bhakti is not in the line with the teachings of Rupa Gosvami, it is inaccurate and hazy.

What is the definition of bhakti (ordinary devotional service)?

What is the definition of viddha-bhakti (mixed devotional service)? (Viddha or Vaidhi bhakti is is derived from the Sanskrit word “vidhi”, referring to the commandments of the scriptures.

vaidhi-bhaktir bhavet zAstraM bhaktau cet syAt pravartakam |

rAgAnugA syac ced bhaktau lobha eva pravartakaH || (rvc 1.3)

 

“When devotion is caused by scriptural injunctions, it is called vaidhi-bhakti, but when its cause is spiritual greed alone, it is called raganuga-bhakti.”

yatra rAgAnavAptatvAt pravRttir upajAyate |

zAsanenaiva zAstrasya sA vaidhI-bhaktir ucyate || (brs 1.2.6)

 

“That devotion which knows no attachment or greed, but which is prompted by the commandments of the scriptures, is called vaidhi-bhakti.”

vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH |

dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7)

 

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other.

Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”

 

You don’t smash anything, you don’t know siddhanta, please read my post #274 to understand how Srila Rupa Gosvami defines Bhakti:

To refresh your memory:

Rupa Gosvami after giving the definition of the pure bhakti,

<u1:p></u1:p> says that this bhakti, the pure bhakti, he defined previously is of three kinds:<u1:p></u1:p>

 

<u1:p></u1:p>sA bhaktiH - sAdhana bhaktir - bhAva bhaktiH - premA bhaktir - iti trividhA

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>There are only three kinds of bhakti:<u1:p></u1:p>

sAdhana bhakti, bhAva bhakti, premA bhakti

<u1:p></u1:p>which according Rupa Gosvami are all part of the pure bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p>

 

<u1:p></u1:p>That which is outside of pure bhakti is not bhakti:<u1:p></u1:p>

Aropa siddha bhakti is an imposition of bhakti on activities which seem related to bhakti, but really they are not bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p>

Sanga siddha bhakti is the cultivation of good qualities, which really is not bhakti, but when this cultivation is done in association with bhakti activities, than it may be called sanga siddha bhakti, but is not bhakti, than bhakti means cultivation of another type of activities.

Vaidhi or viddha bhakti is a type of the Sadhana bhakti, which Rupa Gosvami includes it in the Pure bhakti, as he says:<u1:p></u1:p>

 

<u1:p></u1:p>vaidhI rAgAnugA ceti sA dvidhA sAdhanAbhidhA || (brs 1.2.5)

 

“(Bhakti) Practice (sadhana bhakti) is of two kinds, namely vaidhi (sadhana-bhakti)and raganuga (sadhana-bhakti).”

[anadi]

Dear bhakta devarsi, dandavat pranam,

you quoted me

"This prescription (to implement varna-ashrama dharma) is not from Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, who followed His teachings."

and replied:

 

We see again, that according to this approach, one must also reject Srila Prabhupada from being among such empowered representatives who followed his teachings, because in FACT it was part of his prescription according to his direct words. Holy Aparadha Batman!

Reply

As long as one does not teach suddha-bhakti, as taught by Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, but something else, like implementing varna-ashrama dharma, which has nothing to do with bhakti, these teachings must be readily discarded (but a person lacking knowledge of siddhanta cannot discriminate between what is bhakti or not, so the neophyte may well do things that have nothing to do with bhakti, and regarding them as part of sadhana bhakti, although they have nothing to do with it. )

Remeber the definition of sadhan bhakti:

 

kRti sAdhyA bhavet sAdhya bhAvA sA sAdhanAbhidhA|

nityasiddhasya bhAvasya prAkaTyaM hRdi sAdhyatA|| (brs 1.2.2)

 

That activity which is performed with the material senses and has as goal the attainment of bhava is called devotional practice (sadhan-bhakti) - the first line.

 

The goal of varnashram dharma is not to attain bhava bhakti.

The angas of sadhan-bhakti have been further in BRS deliniated and there is no injunction regarding Varanashrama dharma.

As from the beginning of this thread, it seems that the biggest proponent of shuddha bhakti (see his Website Purebhakti.com) in Gaudya Mat – BV Narayana M. now started the parallel preaching of the implementation of varnashram dharma, which he wery well knows and preached that has nothing to do with bhakti.

[anadi]

Dear BestGuest

You quoted something…?

When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura saw that many babajis were now bogus, that they were with widow matajis and producing sons, he became very furious and said that we will again accept the same saffron cloth of others like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Mahaprabhu, and Isvara Puripada. He then preached everywhere in the world. At that time, those family persons who were of loose character and had no status in society honored these bogus babajis. That is why Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura re-introduced the reddish cloth and sannyasa. Presently, those who are bogus persons, but were previously in the Gaudiya Matha, have become lusty and have thus been kicked out from the Gaudiya Matha. Now they have become babajis.”

 

This is well know Iskcon propaganda.

In the Gaudiya Mat they still award/ed babaji vesha for the ones that wanted to retire from the society and live in a secluded place only in the company of a few like minded babajis, that concentrate all power in bhajana. For the other ones that want to preach in the society they gave/give sannyasa.

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And you added

This is very nice. But after BSST we so dozens of sannyasis fall down, often in unmentionable ways. So what did this change of clothes and titles solve? Now we not only have bogus babajis but we have numerous scandals involving Gaudiya Math and Iskcon sannyasis.

Reply:

It might be that there are many persons who call themselves baba, or baba-ji, but never accepted babaji-vesha from a traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava, and as said, there are many people who claim to be sadhus, but they aren’t, drinking wine and mixing with women.

One must ask carefully which line of the Caitanya tree of devotion one follows, and about the goal of the sadhana and the type of sadhana one follows.

A serious wanna be disciple should personally ask a candidate guru about all this things.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

As from the beginning of this thread, it seems that the biggest proponent of shuddha bhakti (see his Website Purebhakti.com) in Gaudya Mat – BV Narayana M. now started the parallel preaching of the implementation of varnashram dharma

This is complete falsehood and an attempt to slander Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and all his followers. Srila Saraswati Thakur established triadandi sannyasa in the Rupanuga guru varaga and sannyasa is within varnasrama dharma. This was an attempt to reform the line in light of all the abuse of the paramahamsa vesa going on in those days. The babaji class still opposes these reforms until this very day. Go back and reread the original conversation with Narayana Maharaja at the beginning of this thread. All the questions are answered and you will see the use of the "half truth fallacy" by Anadi.

[anadi]

Dear shakti fan dandavat pranam,

 

as I wrote

As from the beginning of this thread, it seems that the biggest proponent of shuddha bhakti (in the west) (see his Website Purebhakti.com) in Gaudya Mat – BV Narayana M. now started the parallel preaching of the implementation of varnashram dharma

you replied:

 

 

This is complete falsehood and an attempt to slander Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and all his followers. Srila Saraswati Thakur established triadandi sannyasa in the Rupanuga guru varaga and sannyasa is within varnasrama dharma. This was an attempt to reform the line in light of all the abuse of the paramahamsa vesa going on in those days. The babaji class still opposes these reforms until this very day. Go back and reread the original conversation with Narayana Maharaja at the beginning of this thread. All the questions are answered and you will see the use of the "half truth fallacy" by Anadi.

1. this is only propaganda - read Gaudiya Vaishnava JIvani or the Saints of Vraja, and you will see the true.

2. GuestCBhakti wrote in the post#3, "in the beginning of thie thred":

This is the same NM that just a few yrs ago said we don't need interest in DVD? Wow, what an about face, I saw a transcript of a lecture/conversation for NM where he sited Ramananda Raya's conversation with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as evedence that we would reject the idea of DVD, Isa das, one of NM sadhika's, showed me the lecture transcript as the position that NM took on the subject. Bas. Even when I tryed to question Isa and show him the standard of Srila Prabhupada on the subject of DVD Isa would not have a converstion and shut me out saying it is what it is. He showed me, I read it, that's what it is.

 

I have trouble trusting the DVD expertise of some one that is just now getting it after so many yrs NM was a devotee in the Gaudiya Math. Just now he is getting? When I've been saying this for 35 yrs to everyone I meet, karmi or devotee. Now Gopavrindapal das is interested? He made so much fun of me in LA temple, back in the day, it was sickening and I took it like a dog because he presented himself as a brahaman, I wanted to be a good submissive ksatriya, oh man what an idiot I was. Never again! Look at him now kissing up to this pretender make show of support of DVD. Blah, Blah

 

Do not be fooled by the johnny come latelies. These people are looking to get on a band wagon. Just a couple of yrs ago they were all saying 'nonsense, we do not do DVD, Your are monkey stool Caturbahu we reject you and your insane DVD ideas' Watch out, beware!! the pretenders are coming!! they will give something different than Srila Prabhupada. And you will again be cheated, with intangible results mostly based in illusion as your gift for blind faith.

 

I remenber you Gopavrndapal, like an elephant, and how you treated me when I would talk to you about Srila Prabhupada's order to create DVD in ISKCON. I remember YOU, Gubber-vrinda-pile.

So, you can see that in the beginning of his coming in the west BV Naranyan preached shuddha bhakti, not varnashram dharma. This siddhanta that I present now, I learnt it by his grace.

He also said that one should discard a guru that not teach shuddha bhakti.

The mater of fact I found many of his ideas in the books published by Pandit Ananta Das Babaji,

But those books like Sri Sri Sikastakam and Raga Vartma Candrika of Pandit Ananta Das Babaji were published before the same later books of BV Naranaya M..

[Shakti-Fan]

 

So, you can see that in the beginning of his coming in the west BV Naranyan preached shuddha bhakti, not varnashram dharma. This siddhanta that I present now, I learnt it by his grace.

Dear Anadi dandavat pranams,

Narayana Maharaja still preaches shuddha bhakti - go to purebhakti.com and read the transcripts of edited lectures.

 

He also said that one should discard a guru that not teach shuddha bhakti.

The mater of fact I found many of his ideas in the books published by Pandit Ananta Das Babaji,

But those books like Sri Sri Sikastakam and Raga Vartma Candrika of Pandit Ananta Das Babaji were published before the same later books of BV Naranaya M..

Yes, I personally asked Srila Narayana Maharaja about this and he told me that there is no difference in the precepts between Gaudiya Math and Pandit Ananta Das Babaji. The difference is in the application of the precepts or practice. This adjustment in the practice goes back to Srila Saraswati Thakur. Therefore the "traditional vaisnavas" and smarta brahmanas created an alliance against Saraswati Thakur and alledged such things as that he was not preaching shuddha bhakti but rather varnasrama dharma etc. There are others from different camps on this forum who will enjoy the attacks on Narayana Maharaja but due to their prejudices and lack of awareness of the history they do not realize that these are really affronts to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami's And Srila Sridhar Maharaja's guru.

[brajeshwara das]

 

There are others from different camps on this forum who will enjoy the attacks on Narayana Maharaja

 

No one should ever enjoy an attack on a Vaisnava

[theist]

Staying far from the controversy between the "babaji" line and Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati for fear of hearing offenses (and that goes two ways).

 

These arguements over sannyas etc. really mean nothing to me having no bearing on my life. I must say though I know where my personal indebtedness lies. That debt is due to Srila Bhaktivedanta and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada's mercy.

 

The babaji's at Radha Kunda must be very exalted or how is it they are engaged in such high level Bhakti-yoga? Of course I am referring to the genuine babaji leaving aside the frauds. It is my opinion however that the preacher class of devotees is engaged in yet more exalted Bhakti-yoga by spreading the Holy Name throughout the world. Of course I am speaking of those in the genuine mood of compassion and not the pretenders.

 

I wish to offer my obeisances to all the sincere devotees of Krsna irregardless of how they are engaged or what their varna ashrama status may be.

[Shakti-Fan]

Swami B.V. Narayan's Instructions on Venice Beach Temple <hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->

 

Swami B.V. Narayan's Instructions on Venice Beach Temple

BY: SUN CONTRIBUTOR

 

Mar 8, USA (SUN) — Deities moving to Badger.

 

My dear Bhagavat prabhu, my heartly blessings are for you. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji.

 

I received your letters and carefully noted the contents. I approve your proposals to bring the 5 or 6 brahmacharies to India and engage in full time preaching services without any agony, pressure, or burden for finances. It is my desire that the devotees who have surrendered them selves completely, accepting saffron cloth and living in ashram, whether ladies or gents, they should have full opportunities to engage in sadhana and bhajan, without any mental anxieties.

 

Regarding the sale of Los Angeles building, it is fully approved by me for the very reason that maintaining it is against the principles of pure bhakti. Srila Rupa Gosvami has given very clear definitions what is favorable for pure bhakti and what is not favorable. It is unfavorable to over endeavor for things that are very difficult to obtain. To obtain sufficient monies for paying the mortgage and rezoning the present building is a very difficult plan and it is taking away all energy from distributing and practicing the process of pure bhakti freely, without anxieties. I do not want the devotees who have left all material obligations in order to practice spiritual life, that they again should be burdened and pressured for money and other worldly problems.

 

Please come to India with your party, bring Thakurji to Badger under the care of Srimati Gopanandini devi dasi and sell the building as soon as is possible. After the building is sold, at once there should be a simple preaching center where brahmacharies can live in order to practice and distribute the process of pure bhakti without any anxieties for other matters. If there is sufficient profit and you can give a donation for our Navadvip construction and our Badger project, I will be very pleased.

 

Please know that I have safely arrived in India, in good health, very happy and 100 % engaged in preaching in Bengali villages. I am looking forward to meet with you again very soon. You may show this message to all devotees so that there will be no confusion.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

 

Swami B.V. Narayan

 

Founder Acharya of Bhaktivedanta Trust International [bHAKTI] and International Gaudiya Vedanta Trust

 

Sri Kesavji Gaudiya Math - Mathura [uP] 281001 India - Ph.: + 91 565.2502334

 

President of Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti Trust and Vice President of Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti

 

 

[anadi]

Dear shakti fan , dandavat pranam,

1.You gave Swami B.V. Narayan's Instructions on Venice Beach Temple as an example that he don't want to introduce Varnasram dharma, but shuddha bhakti, ... but he alegedly tries to do both.

2.You cannot endeavor for both, if you want to practice shuddha bhakti.. He himself acknowledged in this case that practicing varna-ashram dharma is detrimental for bhakti,– he forgot to specify: always! , and also please look the whole theory, as will be, and it is/ was understood and practiced by his followers (see also the case of the “Prabhupadanugas”), and here it is the hardcore:

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I want that we follow varnasrama-dharma *[see endnote 1]. Varnasrama dharma is of two kinds: daiva-varnasrama *[2] and smarta-varnasrama.*[3]. We reject smarta, but we follow daiva-varnasrama – especially as established by Srila Sanatana Gosvami in his Hari-bhakti-vilasa. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada also established it, as did our Gurudeva Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja.

Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura would become very angry when he spoke about the smarta presentation of varnasrama. He declared, “We should follow daiva-varnasrama, but smarta varnasrama-dharma should be ruined at once.”*[4]

3.Can you please quote where Srila Sanatana Gosvami in his Hari-bhakti-vilasa, speak that to practice bhakti one needs a daiva-varnasrama dharma?

4. *[“Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to re-establish daiva-varnsarama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.1.24 purport)]

2.In which scripture is spoken that previously was established daiva-varnsarama dharma instead of Varnashram dharma?

 

4. Or Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come to "reestablish" something that never existed, and Mahaprabhu rejected it in its true form: varnasrama-dharma.

5. There is no word of re - establishing a daiva-varnasrama which never existed, than if you read Mahabharata you will see that Arjuna did’t want to compete with Karna because he was not born as a Kshatria King, and was considered the son of a suta, not because Karna would not had the qualities of a Kshatria.

This is not an invention of smarta Brahmanism that would have created an alliance with the traditional gaudiya vaishnavas (that follow the tradition of gaudiya bhakti as always practiced), as Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati pretended.

Definition of smarta:<u1:p></u1:p>

smarta - one of a group of brahmans who uphold nonsectarian orthodoxy according to the Shankara Vedanta <st1:place></st1:place><u1:p></u1:p>

Adi Shankara siddhanta is followed by Smarta Brahmins<u1:p></u1:p>.

The three sampradayas (traditions) of Brahmins, especially in South India are the Smarta sampradaya, the Sri-vaishnava sampradaya and the Madhva sampradaya.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Dear shakti fan , dandavat pranam,<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

1.You gave Swami B.V. Narayan's Instructions on Venice Beach Temple as an example that he don't want to introduce Varnasram dharma, but shuddha bhakti, ... but he alegedly tries to do both.

2.You cannot endeavor for both, if you want to practice shuddha bhakti.. He himself acknowledged in this case that practicing varna-ashram dharma is detrimental for bhakti,– he forgot to specify: always! , and also please look the whole theory, as will be, and it is/ was understood and practiced by his followers (see also the case of the “Prabhupadanugas”), and here it is the hardcore:

3.Can you please quote where Srila Sanatana Gosvami in his Hari-bhakti-vilasa, speak that to practice bhakti one needs a daiva-varnasrama dharma?

2.In which scripture is spoken that previously was established daiva-varnsarama dharma instead of Varnashram dharma?

 

4. Or Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had come to "reestablish" something that never existed, and Mahaprabhu rejected it in its true form: varnasrama-dharma.

5. There is no word of re - establishing a daiva-varnasrama which never existed, than if you read Mahabharata you will see that Arjuna did’t want to compete with Karna because he was not born as a Kshatria King, and was considered the son of a suta, not because Karna would not had the qualities of a Kshatria.

This is not an invention of smarta Brahmanism that would have created an alliance with the traditional gaudiya vaishnavas (that follow the tradition of gaudiya bhakti as always practiced), as Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati pretended.

Definition of smarta:<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>

smarta - one of a group of brahmans who uphold nonsectarian orthodoxy according to the Shankara Vedanta <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place></st1:place><u1:p></u1:p>

Adi Shankara siddhanta is followed by Smarta Brahmins<u1:p></u1:p>.

The three sampradayas (traditions) of Brahmins, especially in South India are the Smarta sampradaya, the Sri-vaishnava sampradaya and the Madhva sampradaya.

 

Dear Anadi

 

For the followers of this line, Gaudiya-Math and ISKCON, we do not care for your muni wranglings. We do as our Guru's say to us. Your points are nothing for us to address directly because it is only fault finding our Gurus conclutions and of no more importance i.e. NONE!

 

And you have used a statement I used to talk about my cousin Godbrother NM. This again is family. I can say not YOU. You have no right to jump in the middle as an outsider and make dirogatory comments based on what I have said. I spoke out of great respect for my older cousin, knowing him to be more advanced than me. But I speak because I have to say in MY family.

 

All we know or CARE to know is what our Prabhupada's have told us. Your continued on slot of diatribe fertal brain road blocks will not stop this movement/caravan from forward motion. You will see DVD take hold as presented. Guru's have spoken, their words are spiritually dynamic. Devotees of Lord Caitanya will also be developed from the 'most fallen' as it should be.

 

Your an outsider to this discusion as it is concerning a particular sampradya's preaching methods, that you are not part of. And show emnity toward! A family discussion. Which I can see by your above post, you have no respect for. Then you are now a troll.

 

Please stop posting offensive replies to this sampadaya's concideration as to "what" is Daivi-Varnasrama-Dharma. It, apparently, is not in you capasity to understand, nor help in any way to impliment. So you should not comment further, just to diswade any ideas of following our Guru's instructions.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

[Guest guest]

If a person considers the Srimad Bhagavatam as translated and expounded in purport by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada to be a bona fide scripture, then here is proof positive within from his own lotus lips that not only did his Guru Maharaja want to re-establish daiva-varnasrama dharma, but that the author considered that the perfect society of Krsna consciousness that he himself initiated, embodied, cultivated and single handedly in the Western world for over 10 years was TO BE CONTINUED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT OF DVD ALL OVER THE WORLD.

 

 

SB 5.1.24 purport.

 

Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society.

[astrobhadauria]

Paramadarniya Guruvar,

One time Naradji,feel,that he is a great bhakta of Shri hari,and went to near charnapadukam of Shri Hari,Antaryami Shri Hari,sense the mind trouble of Naradji,and asked him about his feelings,naradji,described the Antar kathaa to Shri Hari,That he is great Bhakta of Shri hari.Shri Hari send him to a village and descibes him that a farmer is great then Shri Naradji,naradji went to the village of that farmar and see there,When Sun arise that farmar leave his coat and speak three time-naarayan,naarayan,naaraayan,after three time speaking he start the daily works,and when went to sleep he chand three time naaraayan,naaraayan,naaraayan.Naradji stay there for one month,and calculate totel chanting of "Naaraayan",came back to shri Hari,when naradji,asked to shree haree,that he chant everyday,that farmer chant in one month,then how that farmar is great then Naradji,Shri said to naradji,leave this artical,and do a work for him,one Jyotishi said him that saadhesaatee is starting on him,and donate oil after fill in a bowl,Shri Hari Filled full that bowl and said to naradji,that he make parikrama,of shri hari with that bowl,and mind no oil fall on earth single drop,naradji started parikrama,and after making parikrama,naradji answered to shri Hari,that not single drop falled on earth,Shri Hari asked to naradji,when you was in parikrama,how many time you chant the name of "naaraayan",naradji replid to shri hari,if they speak naaraayan that time then more posible to fall the oil on the earth,Shri Hari made Upadesh to Naradji,That farmar is a Grhastha and after making works of Grahastha he speak six times daily naaraayan,then think who is great bhakta? naradji made silence and went to his sansaar vichran.The Grhastha dharam is great then other dharma,The first Prahar is the time of Sudra,in morning,when every person works complete related to toilets and bathrooms,Then every person is Brahmins,when he make worship,and after worship and completing the break fast,everyone start works for gains,that time everyone is Vaisya,after coming to house,make security for children and family everyone is Khashitrya,then where is other caste in world?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Dear shakti fan , dandavat pranam,

1.You gave Swami B.V. Narayan's Instructions on Venice Beach Temple as an example that he don't want to introduce Varnasram dharma, but shuddha bhakti, ... but he alegedly tries to do both.

...You cannot endeavor for both, if you want to practice shuddha bhakti.. He himself acknowledged in this case that practicing varna-ashram dharma is detrimental for bhakti,– he forgot to specify: always! , and also please look the whole theory, as will be, and it is/ was understood and practiced by his followers (see also the case of the “Prabhupadanugas”), and here it is the hardcore:

During the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu all the way until the mid-twentieth century Krsna bhakti was preached to people in India that more or less followed varasrama dharma. [Daiva] Varnasrama dharma is the standard for human civilization and anything less is uncivilized and subhuman. Varnasrama dharma helps people to stop behaving like animals, then in that context they may be able to hear Hari katha. Still there are those who have the sukriti to take directly to Krsna bhakti, but that is very rare. So Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati made some reforms for the members of his maths to organize them as brahmacaris, grhastas, vanaprasthas and sannyasis. Then Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada considered expanding the application of daiva varnasrama dharma so as to establishing the four varnas in the West as a way to expand the preaching and organize the entire human civilization in such a way that the preaching of Krsna Consciousness would go on in a grand way. This was both his mood and the mood of his Guru Maharaja to "shoot for the Rhinocerous". This mood is really the true meaning of audarya, or mangnaminity. Prabhupada was always seeing the suffering of the conditioned souls and thinking of ways to deliver them. Only another pure devotee can know the ways of a pure devotee. Then why take the risk of vaisnava aparadha against that person who spread Krsna Consciousness worldwide and the person who inspired him?

[bhaktatraveler]

Posts from Shakti-fan, Astrobhadauria, Guest of Prabhupada are all of the nectar that we seek. To spead this sankirtan movement.

 

CBR

[bija]

 

This mood is really the true meaning of audarya, or mangnaminity. Prabhupada was always seeing the suffering of the conditioned souls and thinking of ways to deliver them. Only another pure devotee can know the ways of a pure devotee. quote by Shakti-Fan

 

This is the crux of the conversations really. The merciful heart of the Acarya. The motivations for his endeavour to introduce this varnashrama system is mercy. Upon mercy everything can be weighed up I feel. Mercy by nature can even extend beyond set limitations and set protocol.

 

So I can also see the points made by the dvd proponents about making concessions for meat eaters etc. But I also feel that the goal of such endeavours of mercy is to raise others to higher station. So at some point this extended mercy will be grasped, and the sinful activity will be left behind. And not used as a justification for meat eating etc. I feel this is an important point.

[theist]

Many things may sound good on the mental plane but we must see if it is practically accept by at least a few people in society. Let's see some non-initiated people step up and actually work within the varna-ashrama system. If it can't past the test of practicality then it is a waste of time.

 

One thing is for sure Iskcon is not together enough to set up and run a varnashram college. Certainly not in the west.

[Guest guest]

After reading Bhagavad Gita 3.29, all doubts should be resolved regarding the many "seemingly disconnected" pieces of evidence that have emerged by those reviewing the multitude of conversations with senior leaders wherein so many concessions were given with the view to absorb anyone from any walk of life, with any gross conditioned habits if they were willing to give any level of discipline a sincere try after approaching in surrendered mood due to distress, poverty, inquisitiveness, or a case a da shmarts. He had faith the holy name would do its magic if they were to sign on in earnest.

 

 

BG 3.29

TRANSLATION

Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become attached. But the wise should not unsettle them, although these duties are inferior due to the performers' lack of knowledge.

PURPORT

Persons who are unknowledgeable falsely identify with gross material consciousness and are full of material designations. This body is a gift of the material nature, and one who is too much attached to the bodily consciousness is called mandan, or a lazy person without understanding of spirit soul. Ignorant men think of the body as the self; bodily connections with others are accepted as kinsmanship; the land in which the body is obtained is the object of worship; and the formalities of religious rituals are considered ends in themselves. Social work, nationalism, and altruism are some of the activities for such materially designated persons. Under the spell of such designations, they are always busy in the material field; for them spiritual realization is a myth, and so they are not interested. Such bewildered persons may even be engaged in such primary moral principles of life as nonviolence and similar materially benevolent work. Those who are, however, enlightened in spiritual life, should not try to agitate such materially engrossed persons. Better to prosecute one's own spiritual activities silently.

 

Men who are ignorant cannot appreciate activities in Krsna consciousness, and therefore Lord Krsna advises us not to disturb them and simply waste valuable time. But the devotees of the Lord are more kind than the Lord because they understand the purpose of the Lord. Consequently they undertake all kinds of risks, even to the point of approaching ignorant men to try to engage them in the acts of Krsna consciousness, which are absolutely necessary for the human being.

 

If the DVD preaching regarding the revised restrictions on meat eating for a sudra living outside the temple in the local community were to serve to attract just one sincere and surrendered soul....

 

Oh and one more thing, the first group of devotees to be empowered to present something called Iskcon with functioning DAIVA varnasrama dharma will be very pleasing to Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, this is plain to see, but also they will be the only ones who will know how effective it is or is not, the rest on the sidelines can only speculate. Hope they don't miss the show.

 

Hare Krsna

[suchandra]

 

Many things may sound good on the mental plane but we must see if it is practically accept by at least a few people in society. Let's see some non-initiated people step up and actually work within the varna-ashrama system. If it can't past the test of practicality then it is a waste of time.

 

One thing is for sure Iskcon is not together enough to set up and run a varnashram college. Certainly not in the west.

 

These are good points, how to make people understand that actual wealth comes by protecting the cow?

 

 

 

 

[bhaktatraveler]

SB 1.8.40

 

TRANSLATION

All these cities and villages are flourishing in all respects because the herbs and grains are in abundance, the trees are full of fruits, the rivers are flowing, the hills are full of minerals and the oceans full of wealth. And this is all due to Your glancing over them.

PURPORT

Human prosperity flourishes by natural gifts and not by gigantic industrial enterprises. The gigantic industrial enterprises are products of a godless civilization, and they cause the destruction of the noble aims of human life. The more we go on increasing such troublesome industries to squeeze out the vital energy of the human being, the more there will be unrest and dissatisfaction of the people in general, although a few only can live lavishly by exploitation. The natural gifts such as grains and vegetables, fruits, rivers, the hills of jewels and minerals, and the seas full of pearls are supplied by the order of the Supreme, and as He desires, material nature produces them in abundance or restricts them at times. The natural law is that the human being may take advantage of these godly gifts by nature and satisfactorily flourish on them without being captivated by the exploitative motive of lording it over material nature. The more we attempt to exploit material nature according to our whims of enjoyment, the more we shall become entrapped by the reaction of such exploitative attempts. If we have sufficient grains, fruits, vegetables and herbs, then what is the necessity of running a slaughterhouse and killing poor animals? A man need not kill an animal if he has sufficient grains and vegetables to eat. The flow of river waters fertilizes the fields, and there is more than what we need. Minerals are produced in the hills, and the jewels in the ocean. If the human civilization has sufficient grains, minerals, jewels, water, milk, etc., then why should it hanker after terrible industrial enterprises at the cost of the labor of some unfortunate men? But all these natural gifts are dependent on the mercy of the Lord. What we need, therefore, is to be obedient to the laws of the Lord and achieve the perfection of human life by devotional service. The indications by Kuntidevi are just to the point. She desires that God’s mercy be bestowed upon them so that natural prosperity be maintained by His grace.

 

 

CBR

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Many things may sound good on the mental plane but we must see if it is practically accept by at least a few people in society. Let's see some non-initiated people step up and actually work within the varna-ashrama system. If it can't past the test of practicality then it is a waste of time.

 

One thing is for sure Iskcon is not together enough to set up and run a varnashram college. Certainly not in the west.

 

First we convey an idea, then devotees take it up. Unless and Until devotees take to this DVD, where is the question of others? One has to come before the other. Luckly you and the other dissenters are not the only readers.

 

First devotee must take the instruction to show how it is done. On line right now is a practical test and people like you have been resistant from the begining of this thread. If the idea is not embraced then action will not take place. The idea has been assimilated, now let us wait and see how a neddle becomes a plow.

 

You are the test, or you are being tested now. Your reactions to this thread is a test. How will you fair in the eyes of Guru or parampara? Those whom curtail imbiding this DVD will be judged harshly me thinks. Who was a help and who stood in the way.

Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers did nothing to help Prabhupada come to the West nor did they at all support/help this flegling ISKCON mission get off the ground. But when it folorished, they wanted recognition and position from it.

 

The real test is Guru, shastra and sadu. All match. Testing done. It is not up to us to say a thing is or is not good after Prabhupada has spoken. We are not authorities of the parampara. Srila Prabhupada is, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada is, not whether you or I fail at a given task. That is not the test.

 

Your posts never have relivent shastra, in context or subject. Where does it say in Srila Prabhupada's books that there is testing whether Prabhupada's order is right or wrong? And if we fail to execute or produce fruit from that order, then Prabhupada's order is now wrong?

 

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[Guest guest]

 

First we convey an idea, then devotees take it up. Unless and Until devotees take to this DVD, where is the question of others? One has to come before the other. Luckly you and the other dissenters are not the only readers.

 

First devotee must take the instruction to show how it is done. On line right now is a practical test and people like you have been resistant from the begining of this thread. If the idea is not embraced then action will not take place. The idea has been assimilated, now let us wait and see how a neddle becomes a plow.

 

You are the test, or you are being tested now. Your reactions to this thread is a test. How will you fair in the eyes of Guru or parampara? Those whom curtail imbiding this DVD will be judged harshly me thinks. Who was a help and who stood in the way.

Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers did nothing to help Prabhupada come to the West nor did they at all support/help this flegling ISKCON mission get off the ground. But when it folorished, they wanted recognition and position from it.

 

The real test is Guru, shastra and sadu. All match. Testing done. It is not up to us to say a thing is or is not good after Prabhupada has spoken. We are not authorities of the parampara. Srila Prabhupada is, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada is, not whether you or I fail at a given task. That is not the test.

 

Your posts never have relivent shastra, in context or subject. Where does it say in Srila Prabhupada's books that there is testing whether Prabhupada's order is right or wrong? And if we fail to execute or produce fruit from that order, then Prabhupada's order is now wrong?

 

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

 

Always remembering that the order of the Acharya and Spiritual Master is as good and as valid to his disciple as the orders from Sri Krsna to Arjuna...

 

BG 3.30 purport.

 

 

Arjuna did not have to consider the order of the Lord; he had only to execute His order. The Supreme Lord is the Soul of all souls; therefore, one who depends solely and wholly on the Supreme Soul without personal consideration, or in other words, one who is fully Krsna conscious, is called adhyatma-cetasa. Nirasih means that one has to act on the order of the master.

 

BG 3.31 Purport

 

 

There are many philosophers who write comments on the Bhagavad-gita but have no faith in Krsna. They will never be liberated from the bondage of fruitive action. But an ordinary man with firm faith in the eternal injunctions of the Lord, even though unable to execute such orders, becomes liberated from the bondage of the law of karma. In the beginning of Krsna consciousness, one may not fully discharge the injunctions of the Lord, but because one is not resentful of this principle and works sincerely without consideration of defeat and hopelessness, he will surely be promoted to the stage of pure Krsna consciousness.

 

BG 3.32 purport

 

 

The flaw of not being Krsna conscious is clearly stated herein. As there is punishment for disobedience to the order of the supreme executive head, so there is certainly punishment for the disobedience of the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[theist]

 

These are good points, how to make people understand that actual wealth comes by protecting the cow?

 

 

Personally I don't try to make people think that way. No one is going to give up modern life and return to plowing fields with bulls and oxen. Only a handful will take this up.

 

I think it will be more fruitful if we just try to spread the idea of ahimsa and compassionate living and expose the cruel slaughterhouses for what they truly are..hells on earth.

 

Devotees also need to question their own participation in cow and calve slaughter by drinking commercial milk. But most won't because it doesn't fit in with the "living in the vedic lifestyle" that most imagine for themselves.

 

If we can convince a person to stop buying meat and dairy products then at least there is a small degree of lessening of demand for cow flesh. This will be a boon also to the person who stops eating meat because that is that much less suffering for them in the future. Ever wonder why some animals are destined for the slaughterhouse? Billions a year. What karma brought them there? The person we disuade from animal killing is also the one that is being saved from the future slaughterhouse.

 

So we must have some compassion for animal killer as well as the animal because they are just trading places by revolving in some vicious cyclewithin the cycle of samsara.

[anadi]

Dear Caturbahu das, dandavat pranam

You wrote:

 

For the followers of this line, Gaudiya-Math and ISKCON, we do not care for your muni wranglings. We do as our Guru's say to us. Your points are nothing for us to address directly because it is only fault finding our Gurus conclutions and of no more importance i.e. NONE!

but

What I presented as evidence to show that varna-ashram dharma has nothing to do with bhakti, and should be discarded, are not “muni wranglings”, but gaudiya bhakti siddhanta.

If you learn siddhnata, you cannot be cheated.

The method by which one can attain love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is called sadhana-bhakti. But one should pursue the very same path by which the previous bhaktas attained love for the Lord, by which the Lord Himself becomes attracted to the devotee and reveals Himself.

The reason for this is that the path which has already been chalked out by the chain of realized souls is free from all distress and hardship, and it is the cause of all auspiciousness.

sa mRgyaH zreyasAM hetuH panthAH sastApa-varjitaH |

anavApta-zramaM pUrve yena santaH pratasthire || (Bhakti-rasamRta-sindhu 1.2.100), from the Skanda Purana

No path can be properly ascertained by any one individual. All the previous realized babajis

following in consecutive succession, one after another, have made the path of gaudiya bhakti-yoga neat and clean and free from obstruction. They have eliminated all the petty obstacles and disturbances along the path and made it very easy and free from fear. Therefore we must take support from the specific path which they have laid. This is in itself a limb of bhakti - following the path of those who attained love divine.- sAdhu-mArgAnusAraH, not following varanashram dharma.

That is why siddhanta is very important.

siddhānta baliyā citte nā kara alasa |

ihā ha-ite kṛṣṇe lāge sudṛḍha mānasa || (c cAdi 2.117)

Do not be lazy nā kara alasa to take into consideration baliyā in your mind citte / or to have attachment citte for the perfect conclusions (of the shastra) siddhānta.

By this (attachment) ihā ha-ite the mind mānasa becomes firmly sudṛḍha fixed lāge on <st1:place>Krishna </st1:place>kṛṣṇe.

[Guest guest]

This thread is on the spiritual topic of a great Acharya's system to continue his Krnsa Consciousness society by establishing DVD as per...

 

SB 5.1.24

 

It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness.

 

So with all due respect, if we could keep the "I thinks" to a minimum we might make some solid progress in understanding the far reaching implications of the fact that a great deal of transcendentally practical instructions from the Acharya in this regard have been mostly obscured by both intentional and naive interpretations and actions of material powerful people, whose influence upon the movement is no true reflection upon the state of those practical rules given, as they were the proper medicine that the patient refused in spite, not knowledge of a better way.

 

Continually breaking the 4th reg of not gambling our valuable time away in speculations has its inertial effect and don't doubt it.

 

And, though people hate to be reminded, it is always nice to hear quotes from an authority greater than your own say so on subjects where philisophical contradiction Seems to Appear.

 

I won't post that verse, don't get your knickers in a twist.

 

Hari Bol