Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[theist]

 

I think it will be more fruitful if we just try to spread the idea of ahimsa and compassionate living and expose the cruel slaughterhouses for what they truly are..hells on earth.

 

 

I KNOW it will be more fruitful if we just try to spread the idea of ahimsa and compassionate living and expose the cruel slaughterhouses for what they truly are..hells on earth.

[brajeshwara das]

Here are a few questions I have for all, with a desire to stop arguing about whether or not but how, and in what mood:

1. What concrete steps are you taking in your communities to help implement (or surrender to) Daiva-varnashrama dharma? How is this being received?
   
2. Are you willing to submit to being a 'sudra' if that is the needful service in your community, even if you feel yourself to be a brahman or a ksatriya?
   
3. Who in authority in your community do you recognize to accept this service position from?

My own answers:

1. No concrete steps, I'm not sure there needs to be anything 'officially' done. I believe people already take on these roles generally and are pretty flexible to do the needful when necessary. Saying this, I do think this and all parts of our scripture should be discussed and we should actively work together to build our communities to be strong.
   
2. I'm happy to wash dishes, no problem, lots of mercy there. Though I'm less than a sudra, I'm happy to talk about Krishna (saying preach is a stretch) when necessary as well. Defend the temple? No problem, hand me a sharp stick. I'll happily collect if necessary to support the temple, and do so by working a normal job.
   
3. I asked my Gurudeva, who deferred me to the swami of our ashram in Soquel. But I'll ask every Vaisnava whenever I can what service can be done by me.

[Guest guest]

 

No one is going to give up modern life and return to plowing fields with bulls and oxen. Only a handful will take this up.

 

I KNOW it will be more fruitful if we just try to spread the idea of ahimsa and compassionate living and expose the cruel slaughterhouses for what they truly are..hells on earth.

No one is? A handful is? Confused?

 

Here is Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's standard of success.

 

"We hope, therefore, that people will derive the greatest benefit by studying Bhagavad-gita As It Is as we have presented it here, and if even one man becomes a pure devotee of the Lord we shall consider our attempt a success." Preface BG, 1972 Macmillan

 

The question was, "how to make people understand that actual wealth comes by protecting the cow?"

 

You KNOW it would be more fruitful to "spread the idea" of ahimsa.

 

This coming from the self appointed "its only the mental plane" cop.

 

So spread that idea, that idea which is diametrically opposite to the mood of most meat eaters, either those who kill or enjoy the spoils from a "safe" distance. I am sure they will take it into their evening meditations, and go directly out the next day to buy books on non-violence and vegetarian cookbooks.

 

And then roll up your sleeves, hire lots of bodyguards and expensive lawyers, get ready to break the bank, and go ahead and make a campaign to expose modern slaughterhouses better and more widely effective than the myriad of organizations who have been working for decades to do just that.

 

Not to knock humanitarianism, but to suggest that such activities will have more chance of success at helping people to UNDERSTAND (as in realizing through practical education in a way one can relate to, not sharing foreign sounding "ideas" alien to a culture), to understand that actual wealth comes from the protection of the cow

 

is what you KNOW will be more fruitful than giving up the modern ("throw out the west")("don't change for the public let them change to be like us") and bringing in the real, symbolized by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's exhortation to take up go-raksya as the Vaisya's agricultural mainstay, and the entire mood of being administratively and economically practical according to the most simple standards.

 

Anyone so fortunate as to have hands on engagement in such a way, among association of Vaisnava's, was to receive realized understanding of the value of Mother Cow, and get to the root of the issue in real time on the ground.

 

Understanding is different than mental ping pong.

 

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

My problem is I don't trust iskcon leadership, I'm afraid it would be abused. Maybe I would be abused.

[theist]

 

is what you KNOW will be more fruitful than giving up the modern ("throw out the west")("don't change for the public let them change to be like us") and bringing in the real, symbolized by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's exhortation to take up go-raksya as the Vaisya's agricultural mainstay, and the entire mood of being administratively and economically practical according to the most simple standards.

 

 

You accuse me of being on the mental plane. I don't claim to be situated in transcendence. So considering your above quote how much of this are you actually doing? Not much if anything I suspect. So who else is on the mental plane with me. My small efforts at cow and other animal protection is accomplished in concert with projects run by animal rights groups.

 

Action speaks louder than words. You claim to be a kysatriya but do you confront the cow killers like Pariksit did. No that's right you are too busy practicing killing and eating meat from murdered deer.

[Beggar]

According to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur would not admit any lacking in the world. Srila Saraswati Thakur would say, "The only thing lacking in this world is Hari katha". So DVD is there to help persons become peaceful in their lives so that they will be receptive to Hari katha. But, still the only thing lacking in this world is Hari katha. DVD discussion in proper context may also be a form of Hari katha. But generally we must discuss Hari katha in the way of our guru varga or predecessor acaryas. Their way as it was meant for our aural reception was a balanced approach. Look at the books of Srila Prabhupada and discuss the topics found there in the same proportions that he gave. Why are we not talking about Praladha Maharaja and Dhruva Maharaja etc.? One day I saw a Christian bumper sticker which read, "No Jesus - No Peace". So is that what we have here? No DVD - No Krsna? Is this some kind of boycott?

[brajeshwara das]

 

According to Srila Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur would not admit any lacking in the world. Srila Saraswati Thakur would say, "The only thing lacking in this world is Hari katha". So DVD is there to help persons become peaceful in their lives so that they will be receptive to Hari katha. But, still the only thing lacking in this world is Hari katha. DVD discussion in proper context may also be a form of Hari katha. But generally we must discuss Hari katha in the way of our guru varga or predecessor acaryas. Their way as it was meant for our aural reception was a balanced approach. Look at the books of Srila Prabhupada and discuss the topics found there in the same proportions that he gave. Why are we not talking about Praladha Maharaja and Dhruva Maharaja etc.? One day I saw a Christian bumper sticker which read, "No Jesus - No Peace". So is that what we have here? No DVD - No Krsna? Is this some kind of boycott?

 

No kidding.

[Guest guest]

If slaughterhouses had glass walls........

the whole world would be vegetarian.

[theist]

Well here is my take. Let's talk about Pariksit and kysatriya dharma. We have the vivid example of how he confront kali who was harming the bhumi innthe form of a cow and dharma in the form of a bull.

 

So if we want to follow in the footsteps of Maharaja Pariksit we have to act towards his expressed goals of cow protection to the limit of our small abilities. But our world is so different from what we read in the Bhagavatam. We can't take swords and confront the Cattleman's Association. So what do we do? Start farms and live as close to an ideal vedic agrarian lifestyle? Yes that would be great but only a few are inclined to it and even fewer carry it through. It is a tremendous amount of hard work. I offer my respects with those that can keep it up. But considering there are only a few small farms protecting a few cows and bulls we can see the limit of this approach at protecting cows in todays modern circumstances. It may even be the perfect ideal but how practical is for 2007?

 

Another way to protect cows is to promote ahimsa and compassion to other living beings we share the Earth with which necessitates veganism.

 

In this I would have to say that PeTA has down more to protect cows and other animals than any other group I can think of.

 

Using any device to promote veganism will have far more effect on the populace than expectly people to allow themselves to be labeled as a sudra or a kysatriya and restrict their animal flesh meals to once a month.

 

Now that approach may work for a few in iskcon under circumstances that are ideal (which is not the case now) but the effect will be miniscule considering their are literally billions of animals slaughtered in the usa every year.

 

So which is more important the cover or the book.

[theist]

Mahäräja Pariksit said that only the animal-killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated to the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal-killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal-killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyäsés have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga who preach animal-killing under the garb of the Vedas. The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal-killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal-killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order to save people from the vice of animal-killing as well as to save the poor animals from the slaughtering process of their big brothers who clamor for universal brotherhood, peace, justice and equity. There is no justice when there is animal-killing. Lord Buddha wanted to stop it completely, and therefore his cult of ahimsä was propagated not only in India but also outside the country.

[Guest guest]

 

My problem is I don't trust iskcon leadership, I'm afraid it would be abused. Maybe I would be abused.

 

This is also my problem and also the problem of 12 other ex-ISKCON devotees whith whom I'm in touch. ISKCON leadership considers rank-and-file devotees who served for 10-15 years within the movement as nothing but cannon fodder.

[theist]

Fear is opposite to faith. I would ask, why serve someone you fear? Why allow someone you fear to have influence in your spiritual life?

 

The Krsna consciousness movement lives within you as long as you remember Krsna. Prabhupada's mission is more than so many addresses and buildings. Perhaps it's time to find shelter that you can faith in.

[Guest guest]

 

You accuse me of being on the mental plane. I don't claim to be situated in transcendence. So considering your above quote how much of this are you actually doing? Not much if anything I suspect. So who else is on the mental plane with me. My small efforts at cow and other animal protection is accomplished in concert with projects run by animal rights groups.

 

Action speaks louder than words. You claim to be a kysatriya but do you confront the cow killers like Pariksit did. No that's right you are too busy practicing killing and eating meat from murdered deer.

 

There is nowhere where Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada ordered his disciples to confront the cow killers like Pariksit did.

 

He gave different but direct orders on how his disciples could get to the root of the problem, considering they were not already fully empowered Supreme Kings like MAHAraja Pariksit.

 

As a matter of fact, there is an entire website full of them. Each and every utterance the great Acarya made regarding how those who believe he, as Sri Gopal's intimate representative, might protect the cows in Kali Yuga. The webmaster has been collecting them for years.

 

Protectacow.typepad.com

 

For anyone who is truly interested about the authoritative prescription to bring the matter under divine control from the original cow protector, you will find it all there.

[bhaktatraveler]

Human prosperity flourishes by natural gifts and not by gigantic industrial enterprises. The gigantic industrial enterprises are products of a godless civilization, and they cause the destruction of the noble aims of human life. The more we go on increasing such troublesome industries to squeeze out the vital energy of the human being, the more there will be unrest and dissatisfaction of the people in general, although a few only can live lavishly by exploitation. The natural gifts such as grains and vegetables, fruits, rivers, the hills of jewels and minerals, and the seas full of pearls are supplied by the order of the Supreme, and as He desires, material nature produces them in abundance or restricts them at times. The natural law is that the human being may take advantage of these godly gifts by nature and satisfactorily flourish on them without being captivated by the exploitative motive of lording it over material nature. The more we attempt to exploit material nature according to our whims of enjoyment, the more we shall become entrapped by the reaction of such exploitative attempts. If we have sufficient grains, fruits, vegetables and herbs, then what is the necessity of running a slaughterhouse and killing poor animals? A man need not kill an animal if he has sufficient grains and vegetables to eat. The flow of river waters fertilizes the fields, and there is more than what we need. Minerals are produced in the hills, and the jewels in the ocean. If the human civilization has sufficient grains, minerals, jewels, water, milk, etc., then why should it hanker after terrible industrial enterprises at the cost of the labor of some unfortunate men? But all these natural gifts are dependent on the mercy of the Lord. What we need, therefore, is to be obedient to the laws of the Lord and achieve the perfection of human life by devotional service. The indications by Kuntidevi are just to the point. She desires that God’s mercy be bestowed upon them so that natural prosperity be maintained by His grace.

 

 

Hare Krsna,

CBR.

[anadi]

Dear Caturbahu das dandavat pranam,

You said:

And you have used a statement I used to talk about my cousin />Godbrother <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:State w:st="on">NM</st1:State>. This again is family. I can say not YOU. You have no right to jump in the middle as an outsider and make dirogatory comments based on what I have said. I spoke out of great respect for my older cousin, knowing him to be more advanced than me. But I speak because I have to say in MY family.

But as I looked again on your statement, that I used, it seems to me that your “great respect”, is not so obvious.

Just look again:

“This is the same NM that just a few yrs ago said we don't need interest in DVD? Wow, what an about face, I saw a transcript of a lecture/conversation for NM where he sited Ramananda Raya's conversation with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as evedence that we would reject the idea of DVD, Isa das, one of NM sadhika's, showed me the lecture transcript as the position that NM took on the subject. Bas. Even when I tryed to question Isa and show him the standard of Srila Prabhupada on the subject of DVD Isa would not have a converstion and shut me out saying it is what it is. He showed me, I read it, that's what it is.

I have trouble trusting the DVD expertise of some one that is just now getting it after so many yrs NM was a devotee in the Gaudiya Math. Just now he is getting? When I've been saying this for 35 yrs to everyone I meet, karmi or devotee. Now Gopavrindapal das is interested? He made so much fun of me in LA temple, back in the day, it was sickening and I took it like a dog because he presented himself as a brahaman, I wanted to be a good submissive ksatriya, oh man what an idiot I was. Never again! Look at him now kissing up to this pretender make show of support of DVD. Blah, Blah

Do not be fooled by the johnny come latelies.These people are looking to get on a band wagon. Just a couple of yrs ago they were all saying 'nonsense, we do not do DVD, Your are monkey stool Caturbahu we reject you and your insane DVD ideas' Watch out, beware!! the pretenders are coming!! they will give something different than Srila Prabhupada. And you will again be cheated, with intangible results mostly based in illusion as your gift for blind faith.

I remenber you Gopavrndapal, like an elephant, and how you treated me when I would talk to you about Srila Prabhupada's order to create DVD in ISKCON. I remember YOU, Gubber-vrinda-pile.”

<st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">BV</st1:City> <st1:State w:st="on">NM</st1:State></st1:place> interest in varna-ashram dharma seems to be more ... politics.

Some of his disciples learnt me to say every morning the first three verses of the Bhagavatam, and since than I keep on saying them as part of the sadhan.

You know the second verse declarations, concerning one’s dharma – occupational duty, are very strong:

dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ

vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

Herein (in Srimad Bhagavatam) atra the occupational duties dharmaḥ which are covered by material fruitive intentions (varNa ashram) kaitavaḥ are completely rejected projjhita

and the highest knowledge paramaḥ vedyam for the pious ones nirmatsarāṇām satām (about) the truly vāstavam all auspicious śivadam Object vastu (the Supreme Sweet Lord) causing the uprooting unmūlanam of the threefold miseries tāpa-traya has been presented kṛte (as) the beautiful śrīmat opulent (and sweet) Lord bhāgavate by the great sage (Vyāsadeva) mahā-muni.

What kim others paraiḥ is to be needed vā ? By hearing śuśrūṣubhiḥ this śrīmat bhāgavate) quickly sadyaḥ the Supreme Lord īśvaraḥ will be arrested avarudhyate in the heart hṛdi by a pious one kṛtibhiḥ at once tat-kṣaṇāt.

And this why this is the main scripture that Mahaprabhu accepted and wanted to convey.

So… "what is missing in the world is Hari Katha", … and everything will be all right.

[bhaktatraveler]

Where is the offending statment to NM? Pretender? so mild. Still amoung family and not so offensive as to stand toe to toe with NM, coming to the same conclusion. As I would say to an older brother I was calling BS to. Family! Not for you! You have said.

 

Anadi DVD is not for you, apperantly, you are all ready cent-per-cent pure. So leave this DVD to those still entraped in the tight snare of Maya that need some mechanical/material help. The help is coming from Guru in the form of DVD. You are doing your level best to dissuade the sadhikas from adhereing to guidence from Srila Prabhupada to fix their failings in execution of pure service. STOP IT. It is menacing/misleading the disciples of Srila Prabhupada. You are vilolent! This subject is not for you. You are the one in a million, not the rest of us, we are fallen and need DVD to help make the way easier.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[anadi]

Dear Caturbahu das dandavat pranam,

You said:

Where is the offending statment to NM? Pretender? so mild. Still amoung family and not so offensive as to stand toe to toe with NM, ...

But

I didn’t say you were “so” offensive to BV Narayan M, but …according your statement you were as offensive as …”between family members”, although one can see without doubt your some aggressive attitude against him,

“Do not be fooled by the johnny come latelies.” and

“Watch out, beware!! the pretenders are coming!!”,

what to say about the “great respect” you pretend you have, when you talked about him

Remember, you said: “And you have used a statement I used to talk about my cousin Godbrother <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:State w:st="on">NM</st1:State>. … I spoke out of great respect for my older cousin, ….”

You also said:

“This again is family. I can say not YOU. You have no right to jump in the middle as an outsider and make dirogatory comments based on what I have said.”

But

As much as I know the Iskcon and Gaudiya Mat should be part of the family of Mahaprabhu, the familiy of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. They shouldn’t separate from Mahaprabhu and His teachings, … and invent a new system of sadhana.

You also said:

 

Anadi DVD is not for you, apperantly, you are all ready cent-per-cent pure.

This statement is due to some lacking knowledge of Gaudiya Bhakti Siddhanta:

- the practicing of sadhana bhakti makes one pure and more than that, it brings one to the level of bhAvA bhakti, not the practicing of DVD.

- Varnashram-dharma is a hindrance for one’s sadhana bhakti, not a help, one should endeavor to gradually get out of the society rules, if one wants to follow the teachings of Sri Caitanya.

- Varnashram-dharma accompanied by harinama and Deity worship – which was labeled as daivi varnashram dharma is not part of the sadhana bhakti, and one may wonder why one does not make any progress following that path...

Srila Raghunatha das Gosvami says also in his Teachings to the Mind that one should not endeavor for varNashram dharma as described in the scriptures.

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

O mind manaH indeed kila do not perform na kuru varnashrma dharma dharmam as mentioned niruktam in the revealed scriptures – zruti-gaNa nor activities against dharma adharmaM na rather param perform tanu profuse pracura service paricaryAm for Radha-Krishna rAdhA-kRSNa here iha in Vraja-dhama vraje and certainly nanu always ajasram remember (meditate upon) smara the son of Saci (Sri Caitanya) zacI-sUnuM as the son of the master of Nanda-grAma (Nanda Baba - the father of Krishna) nandIzvara-pati-sutatve and guru guru-varaM as being as most dear preSThatve to the Giver of Liberation (the Lord) mukunda.

rUpa-raghunAtha-pade haibe Akuti

kabe hAma bujhaba se yugala-priti

When will I eagerly follow the path of RUpa and RaghunAtha

By their instructions I will be able to understand the sacred love of the divine Couple RAdhA Krishna.

[bhaktatraveler]

Anadi, Anadi, anadi, so violent. The more you speak, the less relevant you are. Dimestore philosopher, the subject DVD is completely irrelevant to the your postings. Or is it your postings are irrelevant to the subject of DVD. I get those mixed up.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[anadi]

 

Anadi, Anadi, anadi, so violent. The more you speak, the less relevant you are. Dimestore philosopher, the subject DVD is completely irrelevant to the your postings. Or is it your postings are irrelevant to the subject of DVD. I get those mixed up.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

 

Dear Caturbahu das, dandavat pranam,

I deeply regret that I disturbed you with my commentary about bhakti siddhanta according Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Of course the following the orders of one’s Guru are of utmost importance, and the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma is most exalted.

I wish all the persons engaged in the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma all success, and please forgive my violent presentation of siddhanta.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Dear Caturbahu das, dandavat pranam,

I deeply regret that I disturbed you with my commentary about bhakti siddhanta according Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Of course the following the orders of one’s Guru are of utmost importance, and the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma is most exalted.

I wish all the persons engaged in the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma all success, and please forgive my violent presentation of siddhanta.

 

Hare Krsna Anadi

 

The violence is the continued dissuading sadhikas to Srila Prabhupada, even after so much evidence presented for us to follow DVD.

 

CBR

[Guest guest]

 

Dear Caturbahu das, dandavat pranam,

I deeply regret that I disturbed you with my commentary about bhakti siddhanta according Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

Of course the following the orders of one’s Guru are of utmost importance, and the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma is most exalted.

I wish all the persons engaged in the introducing of daivi varnashram dharma all success, and please forgive my violent presentation of siddhanta.

 

For those still confused by Anadi's presentation of "pure bhakti"

 

SB 3.5.4 from purport

 

 

The bhakti process, as performed under the regulative principles of vaidhi-bhakti, or devotional service following the prescribed rules and regulations, is defined by the revealed scriptures and confirmed by great acaryas. This practice can help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of raga-bhakti, in which the Lord responds from within as the caitya-guru, or the spiritual master as Superconsciousness.

 

SB 3.7.14 from purport

 

 

The two stages of executing devotional service are,

 

first, the stage of practicing devotional service with our present senses under the regulations of the recognized scriptures and,

 

second, attaining sincere attachment for serving the particles of the dust of the lotus feet of the Lord.

 

The first stage is called sadhana-bhakti, or devotional service for the neophyte, which is rendered under the direction of a pure devotee,

 

and the second stage is called raga-bhakti, in which the mature devotee automatically takes to the various services of the Lord out of sincere attachment.

 

A Mahabhagavat Acharya ordered his neophyte disciples to engage in Daiva Varnasrama Dharma.

 

Shall we say this was not sadhana for his disciples??

 

SB 5.1.24

 

 

Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krsna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krsna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krsna conscious society.

 

SB 7.14.10

 

 

One of the objectives of the Krsna consciousness movement is to establish this daiva-varnasrama

 

So disciples participating in Krsna consciousness movement are no longer engaged in Vaidhi Bhakti sadhana because they are fulfilling the order of their Spiritual Master to establish DVD.??

 

Incomprehensible! Does not compute!

 

 

CC Madhya 22.109

Thus one has to practice hearing and chanting and follow the other regulative principles by washing the temple, cleansing oneself, rising early in the morning, attending mangala-arati and so on. If one does not come to the platform of spontaneous service in the beginning, he must adopt regulative service according to the instructions of the spiritual master. This regulative service is called vaidhi bhakti.

 

Regulative service according to INSTRUCTIONS.

 

Liberated Acharya instructs his neophytes - do this do that.

 

I am glad to see Anadi has retracted his overall mood against my Srila Prabhupada's DVD order, but with so many confusing scriptural quotes that he posted against it in the past, I thought to just set the record straight very briefly here.

 

Hare Krsna

[anadi]

The guest of DVD wrote:

For those still confused by Anadi's presentation of "pure bhakti"

 

SB 3.5.4 from purport

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->SB 3.7.14 from purport

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> The two stages of executing devotional service are, …

The first stage is called sadhana-bhakti, or devotional service for the neophyte, which is rendered under the direction of a pure devotee,

and the second stage is called raga-bhakti, in which the mature devotee automatically takes to the various services of the Lord out of sincere attachment.

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Dear Guest of DVD

I have to apologies again for being violent, … I shouldn’t contradict you, but these purports ... are against Gaudiya bhakti siddhanta.

1. Through vaidhi- (sadhana)-bhakti one cannot attain raganunga-sadhana-bhakti.

2. Vaidhi-(sadhana)-bhakti and raganuga –(sadhana)-bhakti are two different types of sadhana,

Vaiddhi is not the cause of Raga.

The above purports go against that what Rupa Gosvmi wrote in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.3.7::

vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH |

dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7)

 

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of sadhana (practice ) certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”

vidhi-bhaktye pArSada-dehe vaikuNThete yAya || (cc 2.24.87)

 

“Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in Vaikuntha.”

aizvarya-jJAne vidhi-bhajana kariyA |

vaikuNThake yAya catur-vidha mukti pAJA || (cc 1.3.17)

 

“Those who worship according to scriptural commandments, being aware of the Lord's superhuman prowess,

attain the four kinds of liberation in Vaikuntha.”

rAga-bhaktye vraje svayaM-bhagavAne pAya || (cc 2.24.85)

 

“Through raga-bhakti, one will attainthe original Lord Himself in Vraja.”

rAgAnuga-mArge tAGre bhaje yei jana |

sei-jana pAya vraje vrajendra-nandana || (cc 2.8.221)

 

“He who worships on the path of raganuga will attain Vrajendra-nandana (Sri Krishna) in Vraja.”

sakala jagate more kare vidhi-bhakti |

vidhi-bhaktye vraja-bhAva pAite nAhi zakti ||

aizvarya-jJAnete saba jagat mizrita |

aizvarya-zithila-preme nAhi mora prIta || (cc 1.3.15-16)

 

“Everyone in this world worships Me through vidhi-bhakti. Vidhi-bhakti has no power for attaining the feelings of Vraja. The devotion of the world is mixed with knowledge of My divine prowess. I do not delight in love diluted with prowess.”

[anadi]

The guest of DVD wrote:

I am glad to see Anadi has retracted his overall mood against my Srila Prabhupada's DVD order, but with so many confusing scriptural quotes that he posted against it in the past, I thought to just set the record straight very briefly here.

Dear Guest of DVD

I am not against…wrong siddhanta, like the inventions of new percepts as in the case of the new labeled DVD instructions given by your “Srila Prabhupada”, although it looks like I am.

I try to present siddhanta according to the words of Sri Caitanya and His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, by comparing how the new instrunctions go against the original ones.

Of course you will follow your “Srila Prabhupada”, and this is not bad, than siddhanta says also that one should follow the instructions of one’s guru,

but he is not my guru, and I am not obliged to follow, and under circumstances one should try to follow shuddha bhakti.by practicing sadhana bhakti, not something else, and eventually one should try to associate with persons which can help one in one’s attempt to go deep into the core of gaudiya vaishnavism, studying the mood of the eternal residents of Vraja as described in the works of the Gosvamis from Vrindavan and their rasika followers.

 

2. Please feel free to use my quotes that have been confusing, so that we may remove the confusions.

[Guest guest]

Anadi,

 

The confusion is yours, and until you can comprehend the Absolute truth behind the words of a certain Vaisnava Acharya in his purport to the 4th text of the 5th chapter of the 3rd Canto which states.

 

"The bhakti process, as performed under the regulative principles of vaidhi-bhakti, or devotional service following the prescribed rules and regulations, is defined by the revealed scriptures and confirmed by great acaryas. This practice can help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of raga-bhakti, in which the Lord responds from within as the caitya-guru, or the spiritual master as Superconsciousness. "

 

Regardless of the fine analysis which may be done comparing all the nuances of making such advancement from NIL to raga-bhakti, the truth of the above purport will elude you until you realize you own actual position in life. And you will not actually advance an inch toward being qualified to follow anyone but your own mind until you realize your merciless attitude is a reflection that you have rejected the mercy offered to you.

 

Until then you will head for the books which are already way over your head and look for a way to defeat the undefeatable. Like you were already planning about 30 seconds ago. Go ahead get your fix, it won't do you any good, but don't say I didn't try to help by suggesting the 1972 edition of the Bhagavad Gita As It Is starting with Chapter 1 like the rest of us common folk did, and humbly make advancement from the beginning instead of presuming to already be there.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[anadi]

Guest of Conviction

The confusion is yours, and until you can comprehend the Absolute truth behind the words of a certain Vaisnava Acharya in his purport to the 4th text of the 5th chapter of the 3rd Canto which states.

 

"The bhakti process, as performed under the regulative principles of vaidhi-bhakti, or devotional service following the prescribed rules and regulations, is defined by the revealed scriptures and confirmed by great acaryas. This practice can help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of raga-bhakti, in which the Lord responds from within as the caitya-guru, or the spiritual master as Superconsciousness. "

Dear Guest of Conviction,

please take your time and read slowly what I wrote.

You wrote that I am confused, and as evidence you brought the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.5.4.of a certain Vaisnava Acharya.

But …as I gave evidence from Rupa Gosvami’s Bhakti Rasamrita Sindu and Krishna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami’s Caitanya Caritamrita, this idea, well spread in Gaudiya Mat as well as in ISKCon, is a wrong siddhanta.

The practice of vaidhi bhakti does not help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of raganuga bhakti.

They are two totally different ways of sadhana (spiritual practice).

It is not required to first get purified by vaidhi bhakti, and when purified you can start raganunga sadhana. Raganuga sadhana bhakti is in itself so powerful that one quickly gets free from any worldly attachments.

vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH |

dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7)

 

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement

in these two forms of sadhana (practice ) certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>

Rupa Gosvami does not say that Raganunga Sadhana Bhakti need the help of Vaidhy Bhakti sadhana as a prerequisite for it.

BV Narayan M says: …, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts

But this is a wrong siddhanta: if you don’t hear /read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them, as on that stage of vaidhi sadhana bhakti you have no realization of them?

You should hear/ read about them

<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> says cleary that according what you remember (according what you heard shravanam and discussed (should be kirtanam)) during your sadhana (daily spiritual practice), that is what you get.

 

According that what you worship/remember/meditate on, you will get the result.

In this connection Srila Raghunatha das referring to the kamanuga type of raganuga sadhana bhakti says in the 11-th verse of his Manah-shiksha:

samaM zri-rUpeNa smara vivza rAdhA giribhRtor

vraja sAkSAt sevAlabhana vidhaye tad gaNa yujoH

tad ijyAkhyA dhyAna zravaNa nati paJcAmRtam idaM

dhayan nItyA govardhanam anudinaM tvaM bhaja manaH

O mind manaH for the method vidhaye of obtaining labhana direct service sAkSAt sevA to Radha-Krishna rAdhA giribhRtoH who are absorbed in amorous desires smara vivaza with Their (loving) associates in Vraja tad gaNa yujoH vraje as Rupa Gosvami taught zri rUpena samam drink dhayan this nectar consisting of five ingredients idam paJcAmRta

worship Them tad ijya

describe Their pastimes and qualities akhyA

meditate on Them dhyAna

hear about Their pastimes and qualities zravaNa and

bow to Them nati.

(Also) one should worship bhaja always nItyA constantly anudinaM Govardhan govardhanam

You can also remember that in Jaiva Dharma is recounted as Sannyas Thakur in a few days was revealed his siddha deha by his spirirtual master by which he could practice raganunga bhakti, without previously practicing vaidhi bhakti. He practiced the sadhana of advaitins.

His qualification to enter raganuga bhakti was his greed to attain ecstatic feelings similar to those he saw by chance in a Gaudiya Vaishnava. By this greed he sought the association of gaudiya vaishnavas, (as long as one does not practice raganunga bhakti, one is not really a gaudiya vaishnava) and very quickly got into raganuga bhakti.

It might be that one can not see such ecstatic feelings with the eyes, but one can see them through the ears (that is why one should hear/ read about them), and some greed may arise.