Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[theist]

 

Caitanya Caritamrita doesn’t describe Vraja lila and the Srimad Bhagavatam 10th Canto has only few insights.

There is an abundance of Raganuga literature dealing with Vraja-lila.

 

I don't have a problem with this statement. It is the fact. But what I find in SB and CC is more than I can process (realize) at the present time. But there is an interest phenomena when reading Krsna Book for example. Krsna is actually there in Person and in real time. He is unlimited as are His pastimes, so even a few lines about Him can give us unlimited realizations. It is not a matter of quantity of information as it is quality of realization. Mere rote memorization will note carry us into that realm.

 

I am not saying this is anadi's position, I am speaking in general.

 

 

If others can go deeper then they should. The Gosvamis did not write such literature for it to be ignored but neither is it meant for most of us to use in a frivilous way like impressing others.

 

I believe we all need to be able to honestly assess ourselves in relation to our advancement or lack thereof in Krsna consciousness.

 

I'm still working on aham brahmasmi.

[Guest guest]

Jaya Guru

 

The 10th Canto is the first ring out from the very intimate core of Sri Sri Radha Krsna's Vraja Lila.

 

After such a general teaser, one then must master the mystery of surrendering to the causeless mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, his dear Nityananda Prabhu and their faultless Acharya of the Holy Name, and

follow the footsteps.

 

That comes through the reading and realization gained through the Caitanya Caritamrita. There raganuga sadhana is revealed for those who dare become so humble before all others. The Lord himself shows us the way to follow the footsteps, once we are purified into attachment to him.

 

Let us get that far, and then perhaps the confidential explanations in book form will arrive effortlessly to our eyes, and in good timing for our advancement and pleasure, instead of the displeasure of others.

[anadi]

 

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Yes it does, very much so.

Shri Chaitanya Charitamrita Adi 7.11:

krishna-madhuryera eka adbhuta svabhava

apana asvadite krishna kare bhakta-bhava

Translation by Shrila Prabhupada:

The transcendental mellow of conjugal love of Krishna is so wonderful that Krishna Himself accepts the form of a devotee to relish and taste it fully.

 

Dear Bija, dandavat pranam,

 

I am sorry...Maybe I didn’t convey acurate enough what I meant, describing rasa lila is meant to say describing the pastimes, because you have to hear the pastimes, to remember and meditate on them..

This verse and CC at large does not describe the pastimes of rasa-lila.

 

you also said:

 

So surely all truths of Sri Sri Radha Krsna are found in Gaura lila.

Gaura lila is a pointer on Radha-Krishna lila but they are essentialy different, even if very strong linked.

[anadi]

 

By meditation upon Sri Gauranga all truths of Sri Sri Radha Krsna lila will be revealed in the heart spontaneously.

 

Dear bija,

the truth about the lila may be revealed but not the lila.

1. If it would be so, all the rasika books about Sri Sri Radha Krsna lila would be of no avail.

2. If you remember... In Gaura lila, Mahaprabhu took inspiration in Gambira from the reciting from his two bellowed books Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta and Gīta-govinda, which is another pointer we should read such rasika literature or learn them by heart as Svarupa Damodara and sadhakas like Ram-krishna dasa babaji did in the case of Gita Govinda.

[anadi]

 

So at some point being free from offences (by His mercy) the pastimes of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna will manifest in the heart spontaneously.

 

Dear Bija, dandavat pranam

Spontaneous means that is not controlled, spontaneous does not mean that by meditating on Gaura lila you attain Radha Krishna lila.

Gaura lila says: go to Radha-Krishna lila, that is why it is said that by going deep into gaura lila one realize oneself in the Radha-Krishna lila

Nobody before Mahaprabhu and His empowered representatives from Vrindavan deliniated as powerfully the siddhanta of Radha-Krishna, as the highest realization of the Absolut Truth.

Anadi, I can see your point why you say that Vraja lila is not described in Caitanya-caritamrta.Yes surely by a superficial reading of the book your point is justified. But when we will be graced by deep internal realization, I am sure all is there within it. Sri Gaura lila and Sri Sri Radha Krsna lila are non-different by Gaudiya understanding.

Dear bija,

Deep meditation on gaura lila switches one automatically to Radha-Krishna lila, this is the highest mercy of Mahaprabhu, but if you meditate on Radha-Krishna lila you don`t switch to Gaura lila.

 

[bija]

 

Gaura lila is a pointer on Radha-Krishna lila but they are essentialy different, even if very strong linked. quote by anadi

 

The term 'essentially different' is not quite a correct term. It would be best to use the term simultaneous oneness and difference. It is a misconceived understanding by some Gaudiya's that Gaura is only a pointer or pathway, or stepping stone. This is a very subtle mistake. As can be seen in the writing below... those who think that one of these pastimes is principal and the other is secondary are ignorant of the truth and devoid of rasa.

Our understanding of siddhanta is that the name of GaurangaKrsna and the form of GaurangaKrsna are non-different. You could say that the Lord's form, qualities, and pastimes are fully contained in Naam.

So we can see from the following quote:

Chaitanya-charitamrita, Antya-lila 2.24,31:

<u1:p></u1:p>

apane bolana more, iha yadi jani; amara ista-mantra jani' kahena apani.<u1:p>'gaura-gopala mantra' tomara cari aksara; avisvasa chada, yei kariyacha antara"

<u1:p></u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>Nakula Brahmacari told Sivananda Sena, "You are chanting the Gaura-gopala mantra, composed of four syllables (which is your ista-mantra i.e. worshippable mantra). Now please give up the doubts that have resided within you."<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

Purport by Shrila Prabhupada:<u1:p> </u1:p>

Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains the Gaura-gopala mantra in his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya. Worshipers of Shri Gaurasundara accept the four syllables 'gau-ra-an-ga' as the Gaura mantra, but pure worshipers of Radha and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> accept the four syllables ra-dha krs-na as the Gaura-gopala mantra. However, Vaishnavas consider Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu nondifferent from Radha-Krishna (shri-krishna-chaitanya radha-krishna nahe anya). Therefore one who chants the mantra "gauranga" and one who chants the names of Radha and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are on the same level.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada, and Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami stress that Vaisnavas consider Sri Gaura non-different than Sri Sri Radha Krsna. And also, that their names are considered equal. So this idea that Sri Gauranga is just a pointer minimizes the truth of His glories. Many Vaisnava's do not understand this subtle point of simultaneous oneness and difference. The concept of 'essential difference but strong link' is not really correct terminology or tattva. The correct terminology is simultaneous oneness and difference. It is inconceivable to our material minds. But not to our hearts. This is why Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura says one who chants the mantra 'gauranga' and one who chants the names of Radha and Krsna are on the same level. Because the absolute nature of Gauranga and Radha/Krsna is non-different.

 

The simultaneous non-difference and difference is seen in the following paragraph. Both are vessels of Madhura-rasa. But within this Madhura-rasa there are two chambers, one of sweetness and one of magnanimity. Sweetness being prominent with Krsna, and magnanimity being prominent with Gaura.

 

So this is why some devotees may feel more attraction to Krsna lila in their internal mood, while other devotees may feel more attraction to Gaura lila. So really Anadi Prabhu, I can possibly understand why you more often than not discuss Vraj lila topics on the form. And I can understand why some devotees feel more attraction to Gaura lila and will discuss this more. Ofcourse many other devotees feel more or less an equal attraction for both. So this, should not be a point of contention, but a deep appreciation for the diversity in the spiritual atmosphere should be felt and acknowledged.

 

FROM THE SEVENTEENTH CHAPTER OF JAIVA-DHARMA by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

Vrajanatha: What is the ultimate destination of the unalloyed

bhaktas of Shri Gaura-Kisora (Chaitanya Mahaprabhu)?

 

Babaji: Shri Krishna and Shri Gaura-Kisora are non-different in their

tattva (absolute nature). They are both shelters of madhurya-rasa.

However, there is a slight difference between Them because

madhurya-rasa has two prakosts (chambers). One is the mood of

madhurya (sweetness), and the other is the mood of audarya (magnanimity).

Shri Krishna's svarupa is manifest where madhurya is prominent,

and Shri Gauranga's form is manifest where audarya is prominent.

Similarly, the transcendental Vrndavana also has two

prakosts (divisions): Shri Krishna's abode and Shri Gaura's abode.

The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Shri

Krishna's abode are attracted first to madhurya, and then to audarya.

The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Shri

Gaura's abode are blissfully absorbed in audarya, and then

madhurya. Some of them reside in both abodes simultaneously by

expansions of the self (svarupa-vyuha), while others reside in one

spiritual form in only one abode, and not in the other.

 

Those who only worship Shri Gaura during their period of

sadhana, only serve Shri Gaura when they achieve perfection, while

those who only serve Shri Krishna during their period of sadhana serve

Shri Krishna on achieving perfection. However, those who worship

the forms of both Shri Krishna and Shri Gaura during their period of

sadhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside

in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous

oneness and difference of Shri Gaura and Shri Krishna is a very

confidential secret.

 

 

From the Fourteenth Chapter of Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Babaji: Krsna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu are both eternally manifest. It cannot be determined which of them came earlier and who came later. "First Caitanya was there, and then Radha-Krsna manifested, and now They have merged together again, and appeared in the form of Caitanyadeva' - the understanding of this statement is not that one of Them existed earlier, and the other appeared later. Both manifestations are eternal; They are present for all time, and will exist for all time. All the pastimes of the Supreme Truth are eternal. Those who think that one of these pastimes is principal and the other is secondary are ignorant of the truth and devoid of rasa.

 

Vrajanatha: If Sri Gaurangadeva is directly the complete plenary (full in all respects) truth, what then is the process for His worship?

 

Babaji: Worshiping Gaura by chanting gaura-nama-mantra awards the same benefit as worshiping Krsna by chanting His holy names in krsna-nama-mantra. Worshiping Gaura through the Krsna mantra is the same as worshiping Krsna by the Gaura mantra. Those who believe that there is a difference between Gaura and Krsna are extremely foolish; they are simply servants of Kali.

[anadi]

MAHAPRABHU’S ORDER

 

At the end of the ten days Sri Rupa and Mahaprabhu spent together, Mahaprabhu concluded His discourse and ordered Rupa to go to Vrindavan (Caitanya Caritamrita, 2.19.235-243).

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu then concluded,

“I have simply given a general survey describing the mellows of devotional service. You can consider how to adjust and expand this.

“When one thinks of Krsna constantly, love for Him manifests within the heart. Even though one may be ignorant, one can reach the far shore of the ocean of transcendental love by Lord Krsna’s mercy.”

 

 

After saying this, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu embraced Srila Rupa Gosvami. The Lord then decided to go to the city of Benares. The next morning, when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu arose and prepared to leave for Varanasi [benares], Srila Rupa Gosvami submitted the following statement at the Lord’s lotus feet:

“If You give me permission, I shall go with Your Lordship. It is not possible for me to tolerate the waves of separation.”

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied,

“Your duty is to carry out My order. You have come near Vrndavana. Now you should go there. Later, you can go from Vrndavana to Jagannatha Puri through Bengal [Gauda-desa]. There you will meet Me again.”

 

After embracing Rupa Gosvami, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu got into a boat. Rupa Gosvami fainted and fell down on the spot. The brahmana from Deccan took Rupa Gosvami to his home, and thereafter the two brothers departed for Vrndavana.

Earlier, in the first chapter (31-34), Krishnadas has elaborated on the order given by Sriman Mahaprabhu to the two brothers:

Prabhu then sent Rupa and Sanatana to Vraja. On His order, they went to Sri Vrindavana Dhama. They broadcast the path of bhakti and discovered all the places of pilgrimage, and also established the service of Madana-Gopala and Govindaji. Having elaborately studied the scriptures, they compiled books on the essence of bhakti, and in this way delivered many fools and fallen souls. On the order of Mahaprabhu, they carefully studied all scriptures, thereafter presenting the confidential bhakti of Vraja-dhama.

 

So...we should study their books. Searching for the ones that can help us, to understand them. Staying stuck for years in varna-ashram dharma proliferation and speculating on what varna or ashrama one should take, and discussing if one should take guru or not ... will not help.

 

If one studies their books one quickly understands: one needs a guru, one needs diksha, and one needs no varna-ashrama dharma.

One's duty is to become a saint, out of this world, and...

accept that special gift, the bhakti that Mahaprabhu came to give - madhur Vraja bhakti, through sadhana bhakti as deliniated by Rupa Gosvami, and the one's that follow his instructions.

[bija]

You have brought a smile to my face Anadi...yes, let's get back to the thread topic...varnashrama dharma. If I continue on this philosophical (s)train of thought as in our last posts...my well of knowledge will surely run dry, and I will be exposed for the beginner in devotional life I truly am. Thank Krsna though...for the heart will never run dry.

 

I fully accept all you have said in your post entitled, Mahaprabhu's Order. And yes we will know within ourself (if we are honest) when we are qualified to enter higher topics. These books are surely glorious, and we are most fortunate that advanced souls penned their realizations for future generations to come.

[anadi]

Dear bija, dandavat pranam,

I didn’t say that one is principal and the other is secondary, I said they are essentially different.

What is the meaning of essentially different?

Gaura lila is audarya lila.

Why? Krishna brings mercy.

How? He lively explains His madhurya lila. For this one too, He brought His associates with Him.

The essence of Gaura lila is the magnanimity by which He and His appointed associates point out the way to Radha-Krishna lila – vraja bhakti – raganunga and especially kamanuga bhakti and especially Tad-bhava-iccha-atmika-bhakti.

Radha-Krishna lila is madhur-lila, the display of the sweetness of divine erotic love.

This makes them essentially different, even if very strong linked.

Some may have discovered and tasted Radha-Krishna lila before Mahaprabhu came, as Lilasuka or Jayadeva Gosvami, but Mahabrabhu and his intimate associates made the path wide and very clear.

[anadi]

You have brought a smile to my face Anadi...yes, let's get back to the thread topic...varnashrama dharma. If I continue on this philosophical (s)train of thought as in our last posts...my well of knowledge will surely run dry, and I will be exposed for the beginner in devotional life I truly am. Thank Krsna though...for the heart will never run dry.

 

Dear bija, dandavat pranam,

I love Gaura katha, so we should better not stop.

I read also Vrindavana dasa's Thakur Caitanya Bhagavat, and I ...

You are not an offensive person, so we can go on and post our evidence.

 

(I found no love icon, think I posted one)

[bija]

 

Sri Gaura lila and Sri Sri Radha Krsna lila are non-different by Gaudiya understanding.quote by bija

 

This point I made is loosely used and put forward, and could be taken wrongly. What I was trying to express in the original context, where this was posted is that, I feel that with higher vision, all the esoteric truths of Sri Sri Radha Krsna, can be perceived in the very person of Sri Gauranga.

 

"Those who only worship Shri Gaura during their period of

sadhana, only serve Shri Gaura when they achieve perfection, while

those who only serve Shri Krishna during their period of sadhana serve

Shri Krishna on achieving perfection. However, those who worship

the forms of both Shri Krishna and Shri Gaura during their period of

sadhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside

in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous

oneness and difference of Shri Gaura and Shri Krishna is a very

confidential secret." quote from Jaiva Dharma

I perceive, that is why Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura makes this very subtle point...The truth of the simultaneous oneness and difference of Shri Gaura and Shri Krishna is a very confidential secret.

 

and again...

 

Babaji: Worshiping Gaura by chanting gaura-nama-mantra awards the same benefit as worshiping Krsna by chanting His holy names in krsna-nama-mantra. Worshiping Gaura through the Krsna mantra is the same as worshiping Krsna by the Gaura mantra. Those who believe that there is a difference between Gaura and Krsna are extremely foolish; they are simply servants of Kali. quote from Jaiva Dharma

 

 

I didn’t say that one is principal and the other is secondary, I said they are essentially different.

What is the meaning of essentially different?

Gaura lila is audarya lila.

Why? Krishna brings mercy.

How? He lively explains His madhurya lila. For this one too, He brought His associates with Him. quote by anadi

 

Sorry for being pedantic and playing on words. Words!

 

I can see your point here...there is also audarya (magnanimity) in Krsna lila.

So you must also realize that there is madhurya (sweetness) in Gaura lila.

I can only speak from personal experience, but the attraction to audarya was very strong in my initial appeal to Mahaprabhu. As per the above qoutes. And as time has gone on I am beginning to taste a drop of sweetness...which is drawing and enticing me further on in a life of devotion.

 

I am sure for those first attracted to sweetness, they will become more and more enchanted by Krsna's merciful nature as they enter relationship with Him. Which will draw them onward.

[anadi]

Our understanding of siddhanta is that the name of GaurangaKrsna and the form of GaurangaKrsna are non-different. You could say that the Lord's form, qualities, and pastimes are fully contained in Naam.

 

Dear bija, dandavat pranam,

It is true that Gaudiya Vaishnavas accept Sri Caitanya and Sri Krishna as the same original Svayam Bahagavan, but one can see that the same Original Lord accepts two different positions and accordingly two different vibhavas:

- Vishaya alambana, as the object of love, the beloved in Radha-Krishna lila

- Ashraya alambana, the one that experience the dominant emotion, the lover, both as sadhaka tasting the sweetness of the sadhana bhakti and as bhavamay – Radha, tasting Her dominant bhAvA, when engaged in Gaura lila.

The question is not that Gaura and Krishna are different, only that they have different position in rasa, and as such they have different moods and accordingly different lilas (pastimes).

[bija]

 

I love Gaura katha, so we should better not stop.

I read also Vrindavana dasa's Thakur Caitanya Bhagavat, and I ...

You are not an offensive person, so we can go on and post our evidence.

quote by anadi

 

Yes...I also have a copy of Caitanya Bhagavata. Unfortunately I do not read Bengali, so I must rely on the english translation. There are several things I notice in Caitanya Bhagavata. It is different than Caitanya-caritamrta in some ways. Sometimes in Caitanya-bhagavata Lord Caitanya takes on an opulent mood. One example of this can be seen in the madhya-khanda chapter ten. Teaching his devotees of his supreme position. Then at other times he becomes embarrased of such behaviour when it manifests within Him.

 

Surely this Caitanya-bhagavata is an essential book for this world, to teach all that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is that very same Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna.

 

Just on a point of interest, I have found while reading my english translation (maybe if I could read bengali things would be different) on a superficial level, the book seems very simple. So the non-devotee may not perceive its great depth. But surely this work of Srila Vrindavana das Thakura is actually an esoteric masterpiece.

[anadi]

Quote:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> I didn’t say that one is principal and the other is secondary, I said they are essentially different.

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>What is the meaning of essentially different?

<u1:p></u1:p>Gaura lila is audarya lila.

<u1:p></u1:p>Why? <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> brings mercy.

<u1:p></u1:p>How? He lively explains His madhurya lila. For this one too, He brought His associates with Him. quote by anadi

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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I can see your point here...there is also audarya (magnanimity) in Krsna lila.

Dear bija, dandavat pranam

Very nice point.

Now what kind of magnanimity shows <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>?

The one described in the anugrahaya bhaktanam verse (S.B. 10.33.36):

anugrahāya bhaktānāḿ mānuṣaḿ deham āsthitaḥ

"To show mercy to His devotees (<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>) assumes a human like body."

So <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> primarily shows mercy to His devotees, i.e. His lila is only for those that have qualified to enter it, and that is why in that mood, it is said that He is not so magnanimous as in the “Gaura mood” who is for all, … calling them to qualify – and giving instructions personally and through his intimate associates how to qualify for Krishna lila..

But the second part of the verse says, aho! I make public my this intimate lilas so that the ones who may hear about them, and worship them (remembering, meditating up -> to serve in them) to become dedicated to Him – anukulyena <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> anu shilanam..

bhajate tādṛśīḥ krīḍa yāḥ śrutvā tat-paro bhavet

"worshiping this pastimes about one hears one becomes dedicated to Him."

So you must also realize that there is madhurya (sweetness) in Gaura lila.

Yes, it is, but … what kind of sweetness? The traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas say there is not the sweetness of erotic love, which is in Krishna lila.

I can only speak from personal experience, but the attraction to audarya was very strong in my initial appeal to Mahaprabhu. As per the above qoutes. And as time has gone on I am beginning to taste a drop of sweetness...which is drawing and enticing me further on in a life of devotion.

It is the normal way, gaura-lila is more accessible, and prepares one for understanding siddhanta of madhur-lila. Without this understanding the dealings of Radha-Krishna loose their divine sweetness and the most important idea …of serving in lila had no meaning.

 

I am sure for those first attracted to sweetness, they will become more and more enchanted by Krsna's merciful nature as they enter relationship with Him. Which will draw them onward.

This is also very true and sweet.

[brajeshwara das]

I know this is semantics, but can we forgo calling Radha-Krishna lila 'erotic'? This is a very high thing and I don't think the term is appropriate. Srila Sridhar Maharaj used the the term 'conjugal', to join. Union. 'Erotic' has overtones that can be severly misunderstood and is a dangerous way to talk about Srimati Radharani and Krishna's intimate pastimes.

 

Sorry if I'm full of nonsense.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

I know this is semantics, but can we forgo calling Radha-Krishna lila 'erotic'? This is a very high thing and I don't think the term is appropriate. Srila Sridhar Maharaj used the the term 'conjugal', to join. Union. 'Erotic' has overtones that can be severly misunderstood and is a dangerous way to talk about Srimati Radharani and Krishna's intimate pastimes.

 

Sorry if I'm full of nonsense.

I feel the same way. Tripurari Maharaja refers quite often to Radha Krsna's "erotic" pastimes and when I read it I just cringe. But I wonder if we are just being prejudiced and stuck in our ways. If we were conditioned to the term "erotic" being applied to the lila of the divine couple then perhaps we would cringe upon hearing the term, "conjugal".

[brajeshwara das]

 

I feel the same way. Tripurari Maharaja refers quite often to Radha Krsna's "erotic" pastimes and when I read it I just cringe. But I wonder if we are just being prejudiced and stuck in our ways. If we were conditioned to the term "erotic" being applied to the lila of the divine couple then perhaps we would cringe upon hearing the term, "conjugal".

 

Yes, but the very definition or erotic involves sex:

 

 

1. Of or concerning sexual love and desire; amatory.
   
2. Tending to arouse sexual desire.
   
3. Dominated by sexual love or desire.

Madhurya is nectarine. I prefer that term. Anyway, not everyone here is so highly developed (me especially) and specifically the newcomers here may get fully the wrong idea if we use terms that can be so easily misinterpreted.

[bija]

 

[ATTACH]1386[/ATTACH]

 

with forward by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada.

This small book explains very simply and clearly the great gulf of difference between the absolute purity of the amorous pastimes of Krsna, and the degraded (exploitative) reflection (sexual dealings) in this material world. It explains why such drives are instinctive in our fallen condition. And how mundane morality is not the solution. That the real solution is found in the teachings of Sri Caitanya, that we are spirit soul and in reality transcendental to this body of senses. That infact our real relation is not with the mundane plane. That our true nature is service to Sri Krsna. But due to our turning away from Him we have gained an exploitative mind body and senses. So without the grace of Guru we will project our conditioned experience onto topics such as those in Srimad Bhagavatam and misunderstand them. To understand the true purport of these divine pastimes of Sri Krsna, we need to follow the processes taught by Gurudeva. So that we may gradually awaken to our serving mood, free from exploitation and degradation.

 

Anyway it is worth the read if anyone is interested. I like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's use of the word 'amourous' to describe Sri Krsna's pastimes. I agree with Brajeshwara dasa and am not so comfortable with the word 'erotic' being used on a public forum so freely, where some guests may misunderstand the usage of this word, due to lack of realization and pure service mood.

 

This is an important little book indeed.

 

(Edit: I have added my text for clarification after Shakti-fan's comment in the next post, initially only the quoted text was in my post)

The Erotic Principle and Unalloyed Devotion.doc

[Shakti-Fan]

Case closed.

[bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna

 

I'm also weighing in on the side of caution also. "Erotic' is to close to a mundain connotation and to have even a tinge of mundain disqualifies us from these subjects contained in such books as the Vilapa Kusumanjali.

 

Especially on a public fourm.

 

And it is not the subject of the topic.

 

CBR

 

PS. The more I think about this the madder I get. Anadi you brought us to this thought of "Erotic" with your insistence that we 'NOT' follow DVD! Just like Theist said earlier, 'I'm still working on ahum brahmasmi'!!! And that is the fact. For all of us, you to, or what the Hell are you doing on line playing on this forum? Not qualified to read Vilapa Kusumanjali. And then the subject matter goes in a desending way to the "Erotic" pastimes of Radha and Krsna. Shame on you.

[Guest guest]

Of course, different types of advancement in Krsna consciousness can be made in so many ways, but if one wants to realize Vraja-lila of Radha-Krsna, it is absolutely essential to hear rasa-lila katha from a bona-fide, fully-rasika devotee. As Srila Narottama dasa Thakur sings in his prayer, Sri Radha-nistha:

tara bhakta sange sada, rasa-lila prema katha,

je kore se paya ghanasyama

ihate bimukha jei, tara kabhu siddhi nai,

nahi jena suni tara nama

"A person who stays in the company of the devotees who are always discussing the sweet, nectarean pastimes of the rasa dance (rasa-lila prema katha) is sure to attain Ghanasyama, who is dark like a monsoon raincloud. A person averse to hearing these lilas will never attain perfection. I refuse to hear his name."

The word ‘rasika’ is not a bad word and is certainly not synonymous with sahajiya. Both Srila Krsna das Kaviraja Gosvami and Srila Vyasadeva use the word ‘rasika’:

….ataeva kahi kichu karina nigudha

bujhibe rasika bhakta, na bujhibe mudha….

"All these conclusions are unfit to disclose in public. But if they are not disclosed, no one will understand them. Therefore I shall mention them, revealing only their essence, so that loving devotees (rasika bhaktas) will understand them but fools will not. Anyone who has captured Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Nityananda Prabhu in his heart will become blissful by hearing all these transcendental conclusions. All these conclusions are like the newly grown twigs of a mango tree; they are always pleasing to the devotees, who in this way resemble cuckoo birds."(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Chapter 4, Texts 231-234)5

[anadi]

Yes it is true that some don’t understand the spiritual eroticism, but sad it is that some pretended followers of Gauranga don’t even want to understand the siddhanta of spiritual erotic love.

The word erotic is very important in the context of Radha-Krishna lila, and the proposed notion of conjugal is improper.

Why?

Conjugal means married, means being under the conception that as a wife one belongs to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and in the case of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> lila it refers to svakyia bhava, the love that the Queens of Dwarka-Krishna have for Him.

In rasa lila the gopis have a parakyia bhava- the abhiman (conception) of belonging to another than Vraja-Krishna, and in the manifested lila the gopis got actually married, although in the unmanifested lila this is only a mood (a conception), which intensifies the love in separation.

In this connection one should make a difference.

The love of the gopis in Vridavan is different from the love of the queens in Dwaraka

 

Caitanya Caritamrita (3.1.36-45) describes the travels of Rupa Gosvami through <st1:place>Bengal</st1:place> to Nilacala as follows:

On his way to Gauda-desa, Rupa Gosvami had been thinking of how to write the action of the drama. Thus he had made some notes and begun to write. In this way the two brothers Rupa and Anupama reached <st1:place>Bengal</st1:place>, but when they arrived there Anupama died.

 

Rupa Gosvami then departed to see Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for he was very eager to see Him. There was some delay because of the death of Anupama, and therefore when Rupa Gosvami went to <st1:place>Bengal</st1:place> to see the devotees there, he could not get in touch with them because they had already left.

 

In the <st1:place><st1>province</st1> of <st1>Orissa</st1></st1:place> there is a place known as Satyabhama-pura. Srila Rupa Gosvami rested for a night in that village on his way to Jagannatha Puri. While resting in Satyabhama- pura, he dreamed that a celestially beautiful woman came before him and very mercifully gave him the following order. “Write a separate drama about me,” she said. “By my mercy it will be extraordinarily beautiful.” After having that dream, Srila Rupa Gosvami considered, “It is the order of Satyabhama (Principal Queen of Dwarka) that I write a separate drama for her.

 

“I have brought together in one work all the pastimes performed by Lord Krsna in Vrndavana and in Dvaraka. Now I shall have to divide them into two dramas.” Thus absorbed in thought, he quickly reached Jagannatha Puri.

 

MAHAPRABHU CONFIRMS THE ORDER OF SATYABHAMA

 

<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> the son of Nanda Maharaja never at any time leaves Vrndavana

 

One day Sriman Mahaprabhu confirms the order given to Rupa by Satyabhama Devi. Caitanya Caritamrita (3.1.65-71):

On the next day, when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to see Srila Rupa Gosvami, the omniscient Lord spoke as follows:

“Do not try to take Krsna out of Vrndavana, for He does not go anywhere else at any time."

 

kRSNo ’nyo yadu-sambhUto

yaH pUrNaH so ’sty ataH paraH

vRndAvanaM parityajya

sa kvacin naiva gacchati

 

“‘The Krsna known as Yadu- kumara is Vasudeva Krsna. He is different from the Krsna who is the son of Nanda Maharaja. Yadu- kumara Krsna manifests His pastimes in the cities of Mathura and Dvaraka, but Krsna the son of Nanda Maharaja never at any time leaves Vrndavana.’”

 

After saying this, Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to perform His noontime duties, leaving Srila Rupa Gosvami somewhat surprised. “Satyabhama ordered me to write two different dramas,” Srila Rupa Gosvami thought. “Now I understand that this order has been confirmed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Formerly I wrote the two dramas as one composition. Now I shall divide it and describe the incidents in two separate works. I shall write two separate invocations of good fortune and two different introductions. Let me think deeply about the matter and then describe two different sets of incidents.”

[brajeshwara das]

Conjugal as used by Srila Sridhar Maharaj means Union. I understand what you say above no problem, it can be seen as improper if you think of marriage. But to say erotic I don't feel is proper in our situations because the purity to understand the difference isn't present, at least within me and in a public forum with other neophytes wandering around. These confidential pastimes should be addressed carefully, and you have selectively bolded 'erotic' which is your own emphasis and in your own words. I do not believe I have heard 'erotic' used by my Guru varga, though I am not as well read as you. I also like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada's use of 'amourous'. That seems fitting and respectful to me.

 

I am also not of the stamp of those that wish to impose 'mundane morality' onto the Divine lilas, I just wish to treat Them with respect and acknowledge my own position as impure to the point I may gravely misunderstand if I take them the wrong way. The right dose of medicine taken under the supervision of a qualified doctor will cure you, the wrong dose self-prescribed and misused can be your demise. And even if a qualified doctor prescribes, but you misuse, you can be greatly harmed.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Brajeshwara, didn't you look at this:

 

The Erotic Principle and Unalloyed Devotion.doc

 

with forward by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada.

 

 

 

[brajeshwara das]

 

 

Brajeshwara, didn't you look at this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I did. You think I am inconsistent with that? How?