Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

Shakti-Fan · March 22, 2007

Yes, I did. You think I am inconsistent with that? How?

I'm just saying that there is some precedent for the English word "erotic" to be used in place of "conjugal" or other similar English words. The problem is that the word "erotic" is often used in contemporary parlance and for most of us in connotes mundane sexuality. But for others in different circumstances and subcultures, the word "conjugal" will connote mundane sexuality. I just think that we should suspend judgement and not be attached to the form of the words but the substance of the conception.

brajeshwara das · March 22, 2007

I'm just saying that there is some precedent for the English word "erotic" to be used in place of "conjugal" or other similar English words. The problem is that the word "erotic" is often used in contemporary parlance and for most of us in connotes mundane sexuality. But for others in different circumstances and subcultures, the word "conjugal" will connote mundane sexuality. I just think that we should suspend judgement and not be attached to the form of the words but the substance of the conception.

Sure, suspending judgment and not being attached to the mundane is the whole point, huh? But we are and that's why we should be careful. I dunno.

Shakti-Fan · March 23, 2007

Sure, suspending judgment and not being attached to the mundane is the whole point, huh? But we are and that's why we should be careful. I dunno.

A liberated person who hears about the loving affairs of Radha and Krsna is not inclined to have lusty desires. One mundane rogue once said that when the Vaisnavas chant the name "Radha, Radha," he simply remembers a barber's wife named Radha. This is a practical example. Unless one is liberated, he should not try to hear about the loving affairs between Radha and Krsna. If one is not liberated and listens to a relation of the rasa dance, he may remember his own mundane activities and illicit connections with some woman whose name may also be Radha. In the conditioned stage one should not even try to remember such things. But then we are told just the opposite:

According to Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.33.39)

<center>vikriditam vraja-vadhubhir idam ca visnoh

sraddhanvito 'nusrnuyad atha varnayed yah

bhaktim param bhagavati pratilabhya kamam

hrd-rogam asv apahinoty acirena dhirah</center> "He who faithfully hears about the dealings between Lord Krsna and the gopis in the rasa dance and he who describes these activities will certainly attain to the perfectional stage of devotional service and simultaneously lose material, lusty desires.

….ataeva kahi kichu karina nigudha

bujhibe rasika bhakta, na bujhibe mudha….

"All these conclusions are unfit to disclose in public. But if they are not disclosed, no one will understand them. Therefore I shall mention them, revealing only their essence, so that loving devotees (rasika bhaktas) will understand them but fools will not. Anyone who has captured Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Nityananda Prabhu in his heart will become blissful by hearing all these transcendental conclusions. All these conclusions are like the newly grown twigs of a mango tree; they are always pleasing to the devotees, who in this way resemble cuckoo birds."(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Chapter 4, Texts 231-234)5

bija · March 23, 2007

Originally Posted by GuesterlyWinds
….ataeva kahi kichu karina nigudha

bujhibe rasika bhakta, na bujhibe mudha….

"All these conclusions are unfit to disclose in public. But if they are not disclosed, no one will understand them. Therefore I shall mention them, revealing only their essence, so that loving devotees (rasika bhaktas) will understand them but fools will not. Anyone who has captured Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Nityananda Prabhu in his heart will become blissful by hearing all these transcendental conclusions. All these conclusions are like the newly grown twigs of a mango tree; they are always pleasing to the devotees, who in this way resemble cuckoo birds."(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Chapter 4, Texts 231-234)5

nitai-gauranga...nitai-gauranga...nitai-gauranga....

jaya sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityananda sri-advaita gadadhara srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda

this is how to develop the qualification to one day feel bliss upon hearing these high topics.

if we find our hearts are full of exploitative mentality...then try to capture Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu in the heart (as per CC translation by Srila Prabhupada in the above quote). Then very soon we will be able to relish such transcendental subjects.

CC adi lila chapter 8 verse 31

TRANSLATION

But if one only chants, with some slight faith, the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Nityananda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offenses. Thus as soon as he chants the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, he feels the ecstasy of love for God.

http://www.vedabase.net/cc/adi/8/31/en

PS. The more I think about this the madder I get. Anadi you brought us to this thought of "Erotic" with your insistence that we 'NOT' follow DVD! Just like Theist said earlier, 'I'm still working on ahum brahmasmi'!!! And that is the fact. For all of us, you to, or what the Hell are you doing on line playing on this forum? Not qualified to read Vilapa Kusumanjali. And then the subject matter goes in a desending way to the "Erotic" pastimes of Radha and Krsna. Shame on you. quote by bhaktatraveller

I can understand Srila Prabhupada's merciful heart in wishing to implemement functioning DVD into his institution. To quote..'he built a house the whole world can live in.'

But would you agree bhaktatraveller that...nitai-gauranga naam is more essential than dvd?

Beggar · March 23, 2007

But would you agree bhaktatraveller that...nitai-gauranga naam is more essential than dvd?

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.1.69 From Purport

Vinā paśu-ghnāt. The word paśu means "animal." An animal killer, paśu-ghna, cannot enter into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, therefore, animal killing is completely prohibited.

Uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt. The word uttamaśloka means "one who is famous as the best of those who are good." The Lord is good in all circumstances. That is His natural reputation. His goodness is unlimited, and He uses it unlimitedly. A devotee is also sometimes described as uttamaśloka, meaning that he is eager to glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Lord's devotees. Glorifying the Lord and glorifying the Lord's devotees are the same. Or, rather, glorifying the devotee is more important than glorifying the Lord directly. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura explains this fact: chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā, nistāra pāyeche kebā. One cannot be liberated from material contamination without sincerely serving a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavauṣadhāt means "from the universal remedy." Chanting the holy name and glorifying the Supreme Lord are the universal remedy for all the miseries of materialistic life. Persons who desire to be freed from this material world are called mumukṣu. Such persons can understand the miseries of materialistic life, and by glorifying the activities of the Lord they can be released from all these miseries. The transcendental sound vibrations concerning the Lord's name, fame, form, qualities and paraphernalia are all nondifferent from the Lord. Therefore the very sound vibration of the Lord's glorification and name are pleasing to the ears, and by understanding the absolute nature of the Lord's name, form and qualities the devotee becomes joyful. Even those who are not devotees, however, enjoy the pleasing narrations of the Lord's transcendental activities. Even ordinary persons not very much advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness take pleasure in describing the narrations depicted in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. When a materialistic person is purified in this way, he engages in hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord. Because glorification of the Lord's pastimes is very pleasing to the ear and heart of the devotee, it is simultaneously his subject and object.

bhaktatraveler · March 23, 2007

Hare Krsna Bija

There is "Essential" and then there is essential. Which essential comes first? Like climing a mountain, say Everest. Or baking a cake. Which step is more 'essential' and which part is just in the way or to be rejected? To my understanding the 'essential' steps would be that which are needed to complete the trask. For the vast majority we need the DVD step in order to practice 'Gauranga-naam'....

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srishtam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?

Satsvarupa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That’s the easiest.

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

bhaktatraveler · March 23, 2007

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.1.69 From Purport
Vinā paśu-ghnāt. The word paśu means "animal." An animal killer, paśu-ghna, cannot enter into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, therefore, animal killing is completely prohibited.

Uttamaśloka-guṇānuvādāt. The word uttamaśloka means "one who is famous as the best of those who are good." The Lord is good in all circumstances. That is His natural reputation. His goodness is unlimited, and He uses it unlimitedly. A devotee is also sometimes described as uttamaśloka, meaning that he is eager to glorify the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Lord's devotees. Glorifying the Lord and glorifying the Lord's devotees are the same. Or, rather, glorifying the devotee is more important than glorifying the Lord directly. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura explains this fact: chāḍiyā vaiṣṇava-sevā, nistāra pāyeche kebā. One cannot be liberated from material contamination without sincerely serving a devotee of Kṛṣṇa.

Bhavauṣadhāt means "from the universal remedy." Chanting the holy name and glorifying the Supreme Lord are the universal remedy for all the miseries of materialistic life. Persons who desire to be freed from this material world are called mumukṣu. Such persons can understand the miseries of materialistic life, and by glorifying the activities of the Lord they can be released from all these miseries. The transcendental sound vibrations concerning the Lord's name, fame, form, qualities and paraphernalia are all nondifferent from the Lord. Therefore the very sound vibration of the Lord's glorification and name are pleasing to the ears, and by understanding the absolute nature of the Lord's name, form and qualities the devotee becomes joyful. Even those who are not devotees, however, enjoy the pleasing narrations of the Lord's transcendental activities. Even ordinary persons not very much advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness take pleasure in describing the narrations depicted in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. When a materialistic person is purified in this way, he engages in hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord. Because glorification of the Lord's pastimes is very pleasing to the ear and heart of the devotee, it is simultaneously his subject and object.

Begger you have a problem. In these conversations meat eating is said by Srila Prabhupada, for the devotees in ISKCON. And in your quoted post it appears Prabhupada says different. Both are said by Guru. Do you reject Guru's words from one source and give the other validity? Are both simultainiously valid? How to satisfy both and not reject either? Do to the amount of information we have to do DVD it would seem that there is no dought that is the direction we were to take.

The key is under regulation. Just like sex for procreation is still concidered celibasy. My way accepts all the words of Guru and your conclutions reject to much of the instructions to imbide DVD. And all the explantions that go along with it. I take the DVD way first, formost and always, I will try. :cool:

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

Beggar · March 23, 2007

I take the DVD way first, formost and always, I will try.

Ramananda Raya was a ksatriya, so was Maharaja Patraparuda. I have a hunch that they didn't eat meat. In fact wasn't M. Patraparuda blamed for the defeat of the Orissan Kingdom? Wasn't it said that he had become too passive by being a follower of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu? I don't see that a Prabhupada initiate who was once a vegetarian and a "prasadatarian" could be setting the proper example of degrading into a deer hunter instead of upgrading to becoming an avid hearer of Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's pastimes. The gopis saw the deer in the forest as more advanced devotees than themselves. We must hold that conception very high and constantly offer puja to it in our minds as Prabhupada most certainly did. [Although his level was bhajan, proper.] Deer hunting would certainly make one callous to that sentiment. So this kind of activity (hunting) would be only for the beginner of the beginners on the sukrti level.

anadi · March 23, 2007

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Dear Catur-bahu dasa, dandavat pranam

Being outside of bhakti and hampering discussion on bhakti is the normal madness.

Making efforts in Implementing varnashram dharma is madness and weakens one’s endeavors in bhakti, and it is not only not-essential for bhakti, but is very detrimental.

you said:

Anadi you brought us to this thought of "Erotic" with your insistence that we 'NOT' follow DVD!

a) It not me that say, one should not implement Varnashram-dharma but Mahaprabhu and his empowered associates. you can read Their arguments here:

http://spirituality.forumup.de/viewtopic.php?t=107&mforum=spirituality

b) Not varnashram-dharama brings you to the door of bhakt but sharangati:

One should renounce dharma (one's prescribed duties)

and surrender to the Lord, as Sri Krishna says:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ

(Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

Renounce any kind of duties pertaining this world - sarva-dharmān parityajya,

Take Me alone as your shelter - mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

Don’t worry - mā śucaḥ

I will deliver you - ahaḿ tvāḿ mokṣayiṣyāmi

from all sinful reactions (to your deeds) - sarva-pāpebhyo

What is the meaning of surrendering?

In the Vaishnava-tantra (quoted in

Bhakti-sandarbha (Anuccheda 236) by Raghunath das Gosvami it is stated:

anukulyasya sańkalpa pratikulyasya varjanam

rakśiṣyatiti viśvaso goptṛtve varaṇaṁ tatha

atma-nikśepa-karpaṇye

sad-vidha śaraṇagati

There are six symptoms of self-surrender:

(1) anukulyasya sańkalpa –

The vow (sankalpa) to accept those things that are favourable- Anukulyasya (for the spiritual life, for developing of divine love prema).

(2) Pratikulyasya-varjana – (the vow) to reject those things that are unfavourable (for the spiritual life, for developing of divine love prema).

(3) rakśiṣyatiti viśvaso – to have firm faith –vishvas that the Lord is the only protector, that there is no protector other than the Lord, and that one cannot obtain real protection by any other activity, or anyone else .

(4) goptṛtve varaṇaṁ – to have firm faith that the Lord is the real maintainer.

(5) atma-nikśepa– offering the self to the Lord, expressed in this attitude: “I am incapable of doing anything independently. Unless the Lord desires, no one can do anything.” Devotees who have no other resort (atmaniksepa) have this kind of faith.

(6) karpaṇye – to be humble, expressed as follows: “I am very fallen and insignificant.”

Out of compassion for the fallen souls, Sri Krisna Caitanya came to this world with His personal associates and divine abode

Sri-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu jīve doyā kori’

swa-pārṣada swīya dhāma saha avatari’

To freely distribute ecstatic love of God, which is very difficult to obtain, He taught saranagati, the six limbs of surrender to the al Attractive One.

This saranagati is the very life of the true devotee

atyanta durlabha prema koribāre dāna

śikhaya śarańāgati bhakatera prāńa

Humility, dedication of the self,

acceptance of the Lord as one's only maintainer and protector

dainya, ātma-nivedana, goptṛtve varańa

‘avaśya rakṣībe kṛṣṇa’—viśvāsa, pālana

Accepting things favorable for devotional service, an rejecting the unfavorable.

bhaki-anukūla-mātra käryera svīkara

bhakti-pratikūla-bhāva varjanāṅgikāra

The prayers of anyone who submits unconditionally to six-fold surrender, are heard by

the youthful son of Nanda Maharaja, the all attractive form of the Lord - Sri Krishna.

This level is not bhakti, but is a necessary path that leads to the door of bhakti.

That is why Caitanya Mahaprabhu said to Ramananda Raya:

"Go ahead and say something more."

c) The spiritual eroticism of Radha-Krishna is the highest truth, which cures you of mundane erotics. First you should learn the siddhanta of the spiritual eroticism and than you can read about preliminary spiritual erotic dealings of Radha-Krishna , in which you serve, not enjoy… the matter of fact the service is very enjoyable.

bija · March 23, 2007

Hare Krsna Bhatatraveller,

thank you for spending time for posting this important conversation on DVD.

I can understand Srila Prabhupada's merciful heart in wishing to implemement functioning DVD into his institution. To quote..'he built a house the whole world can live in.' quote by bija

I can see from your understandings that Srila Prabhupada's vision was to build this house where all can live. So yes...even the person who is caught up in grosser activities, and and is unable presently to chant is given the chance (as per Srila Prabhupada's vision) to purify himself through regulated activity ie. dvd.

What is of the essence, is to give the engossed souls an oppurtunity for higher sation, so that oneday they may be able to take to the process of chanting the Holy Names.

So yes I can see your point. We must use any means possible at our disposal to bring about the well being of the engrossed soul. I agree with Srila Prabhupada's concept here. Use any means possible.

We can see from the conversation that Srila Prabhupada is saying that the people are unable to chant like Sri Caitanya or Haridas Thakura. And what is this chanting...it is pure offenseless constant chanting of the Maha-mantra.

As per Hari-Naam-Cintamani the only way to become free of offenseless chanting is to chant constantly day and night. And Srila Prabhupada says in your quote they cannot even chant their quota of sixteen rounds daily.

Hari-nama-chintamani

avisranta name nama-aparadha-jaya

tahe aparadha kabhu sthana nahi paya

"Only by continous chanting of the Hare Krishna Mahamantra day and night can the ten offences against Krishna's Name be obliterated. By constant chanting of Krishna's Name, the ten offences will not be able to again implicate the chanter."

Purport by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

"Continous chanting (avisranta naam) - Only one who chants the Name with great feeling all the time during the day and night except during the time required for fulfilling the most basic bodily necessities like sleep etc. is able to successfully destroy the ten offences."

So who of us is able to chant this way. Possibly not many of us. But we all must understand that the goal is to attain love of Godhead. And any essential implementation aimed at bringing about this goal is of necessity. So we can see that the prime and essential activity is chanting the Holy Name without offence. DVD is surely essential...I agree.

But what is the most essential thing for the suffering souls in this age.

CC adi lila 8 28-31
"As a result of chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, one makes such great advancement in spiritual life that simultaneously his material existence terminates and he receives love of Godhead. The holy name of Krsna is so powerful that by chanting even one name, one very easily achieves these transcendental riches.

If one chants the exalted holy name of the Lord again and again and yet his love for the Supreme Lord does not develop and tears do not appear in his eyes, it is evident that because of his offenses in chanting, the seed of the holy name of Krsna does not sprout.

But if one only chants, with some slight faith, the holy names of Lord Caitanya and Nityananda, very quickly he is cleansed of all offenses. Thus as soon as he chants the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, he feels the ecstasy of love for God."

purport vs 31

....There are offenses to be considered in chanting the Hare Krsna mahamantra, but there are no such considerations in chanting the names of Gaura-Nityananda. Therefore, if one chants the Hare Krsna mahamantra but his life is still full of sinful activities, it will be very difficult for him to achieve the platform of loving service to the Lord. But if in spite of being an offender one chants the holy names of Gaura-Nityananda, he is very quickly freed from the reactions to his offenses........In the beginning one should very regularly chant Sri Gaurasundara's holy name and then chant the holy name of Lord Nityananda. Thus one's heart will be cleansed of impure desires for material enjoyment.......It should be noted in this connection that the holy names of Lord Krsna and Gaurasundara are both identical with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore one should not consider one name to be more potent than the other. Considering the position of the people of this age, however, the chanting of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's name is more essential than the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the most magnanimous incarnation and His mercy is very easily achieved....

http://www.vedabase.net/cc/adi/8/31/en

So we can see from the conversation that you posted Srila Prabhupada considered very few are able to chant like Mahaprabhu or Haridas. And as per Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura constant chanting of the Mahamantra is the only solution to removing the offences in chanting the Mahamantra.

But we can see from the highlighted purple verses there is another solution.

That by taking regular shelter of Gaura-Nityananda Naam, even with slight faith, the chanter is very quickly freed from offences. And we can also see from the purport that there is no consideration of offences in taking full and regular shelter of Gaura-Nityananda and their holy names. Even the most fallen (whatever the gross sins) can chant these names without offence.

Srila Prabhupada stresses here that taking shelter of Sri Caitanya's name is even more essential than the chanting of the Mahamantra. He has mercifully given us the Panca-Tattva Mantra, Gaura-Nitai deity installations,

so many things to focus us on their regular shelter. There is even no scriptural injunction that stops one from vibrating Gaura-Nityananda Naam constantly, no injunction anywhere in Gaudiya literature to stop this. Except of course, Srila Prabhupada did limit the Panca-Tattva mantra to three times before kirtana and japa. But this instruction is only relevant to the Panca Tattva mantra, not to Gaura-Nityananda Naam in general.

These instructions are essential for the neophyte devotee. Every chance we get we should cry out (or murmur quietly) with feeling...Gaura-Nityananda...Gaura-Nityananda...Gaura-Nityananda..

So yes by any means shower mercy upon the poor suffering souls to grant them the qualification to take up the pure chanting of the Mahamantra. And DVD is surely in Srila Prabhupada's master plan. And it is essential.

But what is the most essential thing for the fallen...Considering the position of the people of this age, however, the chanting of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's name is more essential than the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the most magnanimous incarnation and His mercy is very easily achieved....CC adi lila 8.31 purport.

Now we can easily understand how essential is chanting of the Mahamantra...so how much even more so is this more essential thing than the essential.

grhe ba vanete thake, 'ha gauranga' bo'le dake
narottama mage tara sanga

"One may reside in the house or in the forest, but if he or she is constantly chanting the name of Gauranga, then I (Narottama Dasa Thakura) want his association and want to serve him."

Purport to Caitanya-Caritamrta Adi 8.31
by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada.

"The Hare Krsna Mahamantra considers the offences whereas the Names of Gauranga-Nityananda don't consider offences. An offensive chanter will never achieve the fruit of chanting (pure love for Krsna) by chanting the Hare Krsna mahamantra. Therefore till the time he is committing offences, he should chant the names of Nityananda and Gauranga. Due to the repeated chanting of Nityananda and Gauranga, the offences will be destroyed and he will achieve the fruit of chanting."

"The name of Krsna and Gauranga - both are non-different than the named Lord. Those who think that Krsna is anyway inferior or limited than Gauranga are in gross ignorance. But in practical considerations with repect to benefit awarded to the conditioned souls, the chanting of Sri Nityanada and Gauranga's name is more useful and helpful for everyone. The mercy of Krsna's names is generally only upon liberated or perfected souls who are surrendered to Him. But the magnanimity of the nmaes of Lord Nityananda and Gauranga is especially for the souls who are offenders and full of anarthas and desires for material sense gratification. The chanting of Lord Nityananda and Lord Gauranga's Names and their worship quickly delivers the soul from all offences and thus the soul achieves shelter at the Lotus Feet of Lord Gauranga-Krsna without any delay."

And what qualification is needed...even slight faith ( CC adi 8.31).

So we must implement every means of mercy for the fallen souls...yes absolutely dvd...but most importantly and essentially implementation of these truths which I have elaborated on. It is so important to press home to the beginners in spiritual life to constantly seek Lords Nityananda Gauranga's mercy. I have observed a lacking of this in some preaching cicles. Especially from my own initial encounters with Krsna consciousness and instruction from devotees.

Srila Prabhupada says in(CC adi lila 8.31 purport) A neophyte student who is not sufficiently educated or enlightened should not indulge in the worship of Sri Radha and Krsna or the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra. Even if he does so, he cannot get the desired result.

But instead...One should therefore chant the names of Nitai-Gaura and worship Them without false prestige.

So along side of our strong preaching efforts of spreading the Mahamantra lets impress home to the conditioned souls...Gaura-Naam-Tattva. And yes ofcourse Bhaktatraveller...by all means I encourage your efforts in spreading knowledge of DVD to the general masses. Let us walk side by side in our humble attempts and preaching moods.

bhaktatraveler · March 23, 2007

Hare Krsna

Anadi and Begger did you read the converstion snippit I just posted? No? to bad for both of you. Anadi you already reject Srila Prabhupada, so bullocks to you. You are non.

Begger, I have shown you a number of quotes that you conveniently ignore, so then I do not care for your responces either. Srila Prabhupada uses Bhima as example of a pure devotee that eats meat in these conversations. Prabhupada's example. Did you miss this? When mother Sita was left in the hermatage alone and Ravana kidnaped Her, Rama was hunting a deer. Mother Sita wanted and not as a pet!

So far no one on this forum has posted anything tangible that would show the DVD explanations to be false or not for us ISKCON devotees to accept as said.

CBR

bhaktatraveler · March 23, 2007

Hare Krsna Bhatatraveller,

thank you for spending time for posting this important conversation on DVD.

I can see from your understandings that Srila Prabhupada's vision was to build this house where all can live. So yes...even the person who is caught up in grosser activities, and and is unable presently to chant is given the chance (as per Srila Prabhupada's vision) to purify himself through regulated activity ie. dvd.

What is of the essence, is to give the engossed souls an oppurtunity for higher sation, so that oneday they may be able to take to the process of chanting the Holy Names.

So yes I can see your point. We must use any means possible at our disposal to bring about the well being of the engrossed soul. I agree with Srila Prabhupada's concept here. Use any means possible.

We can see from the conversation that Srila Prabhupada is saying that the people are unable to chant like Sri Caitanya or Haridas Thakura. And what is this chanting...it is pure offenseless constant chanting of the Maha-mantra.

As per Hari-Naam-Cintamani the only way to become free of offenseless chanting is to chant constantly day and night. And Srila Prabhupada says in your quote they cannot even chant their quota of sixteen rounds daily.

So who of us is able to chant this way. Possibly not many of us. But we all must understand that the goal is to attain love of Godhead. And any essential implementation aimed at bringing about this goal is of necessity. So we can see that the prime and essential activity is chanting the Holy Name without offence. DVD is surely essential...I agree.

But what is the most essential thing for the suffering souls in this age.

So we can see from the conversation that you posted Srila Prabhupada considered very few are able to chant like Mahaprabhu or Haridas. And as per Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura constant chanting of the Mahamantra is the only solution to removing the offences in chanting the Mahamantra.

But we can see from the highlighted purple verses there is another solution.

That by taking regular shelter of Gaura-Nityananda Naam, even with slight faith, the chanter is very quickly freed from offences. And we can also see from the purport that there is no consideration of offences in taking full and regular shelter of Gaura-Nityananda and their holy names. Even the most fallen (whatever the gross sins) can chant these names without offence.

Srila Prabhupada stresses here that taking shelter of Sri Caitanya's name is even more essential than the chanting of the Mahamantra. He has mercifully given us the Panca-Tattva Mantra, Gaura-Nitai deity installations,

so many things to focus us on their regular shelter. There is even no scriptural injunction that stops one from vibrating Gaura-Nityananda Naam constantly, no injunction anywhere in Gaudiya literature. This is essential for the neophyte devotee. Every chance we get we should cry out (or murmur quietly) with feeling...Gaura-Nityananda...Gaura-Nityananda...Gaura-Nityananda..

So yes by any means shower mercy upon the poor suffering souls to grant them the qualification to take up the pure chanting of the Mahamantra. And DVD is surely in Srila Prabhupada's master plan. And it is essential.

But what is the most essential thing for the fallen...Considering the position of the people of this age, however, the chanting of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's name is more essential than the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the most magnanimous incarnation and His mercy is very easily achieved....CC adi lila 8.31 purport.

Now we can easily understand how essential is chanting of the Mahamantra...so how much even more so is this more essential thing than the essential.

And what qualification is needed...even slight faith ( CC adi 8.31).

So we must implement every means of mercy for the fallen souls...yes absolutely dvd...but most importantly and essentially implementation of these truths which I have elaborated on. It is so important to press home to the beginners in spiritual life to constantly seek Lords Nityananda Gauranga's mercy. I have observed a lacking of this in some preaching cicles. Especially from my own initial encounters with Krsna consciousness and instruction from devotees.

Srila Prabhupada says in(CC adi lila 8.31 purport) A neophyte student who is not sufficiently educated or enlightened should not indulge in the worship of Sri Radha and Krsna or the chanting of the Hare Krsna mahamantra. Even if he does so, he cannot get the desired result.

But instead...One should therefore chant the names of Nitai-Gaura and worship Them without false prestige.

So along side of our strong preaching efforts of spreading the Mahamantra lets impress home to the conditioned souls...Gaura-Naam-Tattva. And yes ofcourse Bhaktatraveller...by all means I encourage your efforts in spreading knowledge of DVD to the general masses. Let us walk side by side in our humble attempts and preaching moods.

This is one of the best posts for days now. Yes, the chanting will not stop. That was never a contention from me, I have never said that DVD is the goal. It(DVD) is to improve our material condition to make the way easier...not the end goal.

Great post Bija.

CBR

bija · March 23, 2007

This is one of the best posts for days now. Yes, the chanting will not stop. That was never a contention from me, I have never said that DVD is the goal. It(DVD) is to improve our material condition to make the way easier...not the end goal. quote by bhaktatraveller

Yes I understand fully what you are saying here. Thank you for taking the pains (your time and energy) in sharing your insights into Srila Prabhupada's instructions.

Let us not neglect any of his instructions. And foget all this who does this who does that (meat eating deer hunting debaucherizing) pointing the finger business. Let's fix ourselves up...by taking full shelter of Lords Nityananda and Gauranga. And work together for the benefit of fallen souls instead of infighting.

There may be subtle differences in the instructions of each of our personal Guru's, and the implementation of those instructions. But let us work together...for the main objective...extending mercy by whatever means possible.

bija · March 23, 2007

Making efforts in Implementing varnashram dharma is madness and weakens one’s endeavors in bhakti, and it is not only not-essential for bhakti, but is very detrimental. quote by anadi

(1) anukulyasya sańkalpa –

The vow (sankalpa) to accept those things that are favourable- Anukulyasya (for the spiritual life, for developing of divine love prema). quote by anadi

You have defeated your own argument here.

Accepting those things that are favorable for spiritual life - would not this include things like, good association, regulated life, actually any process that can raise us to higher station. Especially if we find ourselves so fallen and conditioned that we cannot even utter one round of Hare Krsna Mahamantra daily.

Ofcourse DVD is not spiritual...and this is why it was rejected by Mahaprabhu. But for those of us who find ourselves far away from any spiritual substance and realization...would not any means be favorable to draw us closer to this ideal of the spiritual life.

How is DVD implementation very detrimental for those who are far away from spiritual substance? A small step closer is a good step.

It appears you have not grasped the depth of mercy in Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada's heart. And his faithful disciple.

suchandra · March 23, 2007

And foget all this who does this who does that (meat eating deer hunting debaucherizing) pointing the finger business. Let's fix ourselves up...by taking full shelter of Lords Nityananda and Gauranga. And work together for the benefit of fallen souls instead of infighting.

There may be subtle differences in the instructions of each of our personal Guru's, and the implementation of those instructions. But let us work together...for the main objective...extending mercy by whatever means possible.

"...SB 7.15.45: Significant in this verse are the words jñānāsim acyuta-balaḥ. Jñānāsim, the sword of knowledge, is given by Kṛṣṇa, and when one serves the guru and Kṛṣṇa in order to hold the sword of Kṛṣṇa's instructions, Balarāma gives one strength. Balarāma is Nityānanda. Vrajendra-nandana yei, śacī-suta haila sei, balarāma ha-ila nitāi. This bala — Balarāma — comes with Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and both of Them are so merciful that in this age of Kali one may very easily take shelter of Their lotus feet. They come especially to deliver the fallen souls of this age. pāpī tāpī yata chila, hari-nāme uddhārila. Their weapon is sańkīrtana, hari-nāma. Thus one should accept the sword of knowledge from Kṛṣṇa and be strong with the mercy of Balarāma. We are therefore worshiping Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma in Vṛndāvana...."

It is surely true to not waste time and work together to save the fallen condition of so many souls who obtained this valuable human form of live but somehow dont know what is the goal of life.

March 23, 2007

This is one of the best posts for days now. Yes, the chanting will not stop. That was never a contention from me, I have never said that DVD is the goal. It(DVD) is to improve our material condition to make the way easier...not the end goal.

Great post Bija.

CBR

Jaya Prabhupada.

That post by Bija reminded me of what some devotee claims to be Gauranga Yoga. He has a website and a following, and lists his name after Srila Prabhupada in the disciplic succession, right on his website.

He claims that people need to chant rounds of Gauranga-Nityananda before chanting the Maha-Mantra.

He has convinced many people who are chanting up to 64 rounds of Gauranga-Nityananda.

He cites that verse from Adi - Lila.

I think it is nice if people are inspired to chant the names of Lord Gauranga and Lord Nityananda.

Of course HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami took care of this by instituting the mandatory prayer to the most magnanimous and merciful incarnations, and their associates the in the Pancha Tattva as prelude to chanting the Maha Mantra. This was all the shelter he believed was necessary for his disciples. As we can see from the end of the same purport from CC Adi 8.31...

Considering the position of the people of this age, however, the chanting of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's name is more essential than the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the most magnanimous incarnation and His mercy is very easily achieved. Therefore one must first take shelter of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by chanting sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityananda sri-advaita gadadhara srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrnda

It seems the previous statement from that purport...

Is rectified by the prescription of chanting the pancha tattva mantra, especially as Srila Prabhupada induced the chanting of the Maha Mantra consistently to everyone he met, and everyone who took shelter as a neophyte student.

Hare Krsna

March 23, 2007

Catur prabhu ... you explained the nned to kill innocent deer for 'practice' as Ksatriya. But why do you have to eat it's meat after you've killed the animal?

Hare Krsna

Anadi and Begger did you read the converstion snippit I just posted? No? to bad for both of you. Anadi you already reject Srila Prabhupada, so bullocks to you. You are non.

Begger, I have shown you a number of quotes that you conveniently ignore, so then I do not care for your responces either. Srila Prabhupada uses Bhima as example of a pure devotee that eats meat in these conversations. Prabhupada's example. Did you miss this? When mother Sita was left in the hermatage alone and Ravana kidnaped Her, Rama was hunting a deer. Mother Sita wanted and not as a pet!

So far no one on this forum has posted anything tangible that would show the DVD explanations to be false or not for us ISKCON devotees to accept as said.

CBR

bija · March 23, 2007

Yes...this particular devotee is H.H. Bhakti Ratna Sadhu Swami Gaurangapada. In his siksha/diksha spiritual lineage he has found Srila Prabhupada to be close to his heart as a prominent Siksha Guru. And also Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura are his Param Siksha Guru and Ishta Guru respectively. His diksha guru is His Grace Bhaktishastri Parampada dasa.

Thank you for your kind words...

I think it is nice if people are inspired to chant the names of Lord Gauranga and Lord Nityananda. quote by guest of Nityananda

Srila Bhakti Ratna Sadhu's respectful mood, is not one of trying to minimize Srila Prabhupada's perfect implementations in Iskcon. In fact he is fully supportive of all Gaudiya missions and their goal of extending mercy to the world.

But personally he has taken the initiative to implement the chanting of Nityananda and Gauranga Naam on beads, and he instructs all his disciples to do this.

grhe ba vanete thake, 'ha gauranga' bo'le dake
narottama mage tara sanga

"One may reside in the house or in the forest, but if he or she is constantly chanting the name of Gauranga, then I (Narottama Dasa Thakura) want his association and want to serve him."

Surely if Narottama dasa Thakura says anyone who chants the name of Gauranga constantly is doing a good thing. Why not keep a tally of how many times we chant Nitai-Gaura Naam, by counting on beads.

So the very concept is that we may keep a tally of how our Naam Bhajana is developing. Hopefully during the course of our lifetime, as disciples of Gurudeva Gaurangapada, by keeping count of our chanting of the Holy Names of Krsna, we may gradually increase day by day. And develop deep Naam Bhajana.

So we hope to one day reach the standard of 64-64-64 rounds of Nityananda, Gauranga, and Hare Krsna respectively. Or at least place ourselves on the minimum standard of 64-64-16 rounds. As set by our merciful Spiritual Master.

Infact for those of us who found chanting very difficult in the beginning, and have had gross attraction to material life, he has allowed us his shelter (not full diksha), by beginning with 10 rounds each of Nityananda Gauranga and 1 round of Hare Krsna Mahamantra. And gradually building from there.

So our objective as a small group of devotees worldwide, is to help assist conditioned souls to take up the process of chanting the Lord's names by any means.

And we very strongly do not desire to upset any followers of Srila Prabhupada and any other Gurus and groups. So we do not attempt to place our practice onto any other devotees who have learnt their sadhana from their respective Guru's. This would be very offensive behaviour and unnacceptable.

Infact Gurudeva has personally told me that we should be fully supportive of all Gaudiya devotees as we all are taking shelter of Lords Nityananda Gauranga. And his strict instructions continually impressed to me is to never speak loosely about any Vaisnava. For then we will have no hope of achieving love of Godhead. So these instructions were pressed home to me very strongly, from the very beginning of our relationship together.

Dear devotees, I hope my presence in this forum can be a blessing in some small way. And that my foolishness for being attracted to chanting Nityananda and Gauranga Naam on beads may not be a point of contention. I have strong faith in my Spirtual Masters instruction for me. In fact this faith has developed through great tests...which I am happy to talk about if anyone is interested.

I love Audarya Fellowship and frequent here everyday....because of it's unique diversity...which is a rare to find on internet forums. This place is a real gem.

y.s. bija (Nava).

March 23, 2007

Catur prabhu ... you explained the nned to kill innocent deer for 'practice' as Ksatriya. But why do you have to eat it's meat after you've killed the animal?

Innocent deer? How do you know?

Have to eat its meat? Who said meat has to be eaten?

What about all the more dangerous animal elements that were mentioned?

When you read the Mahabharata you will find a passage where Lord Krsna and Sri Arjuna slaughter wholesale each and every animal trying to escape a forest fire that they lit to feed Lord Agni.

The material world ain't pretty, and innocence is determined by the Lord.

bija · March 23, 2007

Actually I will share something with you all that I have been wanting to do for a long time...

I started checking this forum out as a guest sometime in 1995. And purchased my first computer not long after this (to keep in touch with Gurudeva and meet other devotees). Currently I am the only Gaudiya devotee in the town where I live. The nearest Hare Krsna sangha is Iskcon Mandira...about 300 kilometers away. So internet sangha is vital association for me, along with my collection of Srila Prabhupada's and other Acarya's books.

Over the last year I have grown to love having you all in my house as guests. As I am typing now...to my left is SriSri Gaura-Nitai murti and altar to Gurus whose writings have blessed my life. Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Bhaktishastri Prampada dasa, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada, and the glorious Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura whose book Sri Navadwipa Dhama has changed my life radically and completely. And ofcourse my gentle spiritual master Swami Gaurangapada.

Regulars here like Mahaksadasa, Theist, gHari, Braj, Anadi, Shakti-Fan + Beggar, and others (and Her Servant) have been most treasured guests in my little computer/deity room. I have a virtual deity room here thanks to Pankaja dasa's free distribution of morning program for computer and other nectar.

I have been so hesitant to reveal my spiritual convictions and practice. Because my Gurudeva has been spoken unkindly of here in the past. It is just unbearable for me beyond description to hear such things. I do not mind at all critique of our sadhana practice, but personal loose criticism of his charcter is too much to bare for me.

I received shelter from Swami Gaurangapada in Gaura Purnima week 2004. I had come from years of material engrossment difficulties (18 years of addiction issues). And within two months of his divine shelter and chanting Nityananda Gauranga and Hare Krsna Naam I was set free from gross ignorance, and have been well ever since. My gratitude to Lords Nityananda Gauranga is deep. I am totally convinced that they are the most merciful incarnations in alll creation....so this is my small testimony of attachment to them and Their Holy Names. It is so true what is said about Vaisnava association. Gurudeva's humility and kindness in granting me these Holy Names has softened my heart and turned it around the right way. Facing the sun...back to the shadow.

Six months after initiation into the names of Nitai-Gaura I experienced the biggest faith crisis and test of my life. I started reading posts on this forum at some point that were degrading and minimizing Gurudeva's person. And ofcourse...being so different in our Naam Sadhana from other devotees...my faith began to crumble. I approached several teachers via internet (which was totally immature) and found no solace in my dilemna.

So I kept chanting through it all....Nityananda....Gauranga...Hare Krsna...over and over everyday. And faith became strong and well.

I think at some point many of us experience crisis in our chosen spiritual paths. Maybe it is God's arrangement that this occurs. For deepening, stretching, growth, and maturity of our faith to occur. Otherwise our faith remains naieve faith...and baby faith.

So really I consider crisis in spiritual faith to be a great blessing. Srila B.R Sridhara Maharaja says that the 'environment is nurturing.' At the time of hardship it may not feel like it. But I understand now Maharaja's divine wisdom in this. Everything is conducive with higher vision.

Anyway....enough of my personal story...it is something I have wanted to share here for several years...but have not had the courage (in case of hearing disrespect to the one of love). So it feels good now..I feel light and free...enough said.

Dear assembled devotees I humbly request that I may offer obiesances to you all. Without the mercy of Vaisnava's there is not much hope for spiritual growth and wholeness.

simply bija (Nava Gauranga dasa).

bhaktatraveler · March 23, 2007

Catur prabhu ... you explained the nned to kill innocent deer for 'practice' as Ksatriya. But why do you have to eat it's meat after you've killed the animal?

Have to? I have not said. Option only is available. Option! Not just deer, wild animals, dangerous ones. Not rabbits, squirrels, birds.....no hidding, stalking. More, the brahmans have not said to me. Do you know?

CBR

anadi · March 25, 2007

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> Originally Posted by GuesterlyWinds

….ataeva kahi kichu karina nigudha

bujhibe rasika bhakta, na bujhibe mudha….

"All these conclusions are unfit to disclose in public. But if they are not disclosed, no one will understand them. Therefore I shall mention them, revealing only their essence, so that loving devotees (rasika bhaktas) will understand them but fools will not. Anyone who has captured Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Nityananda Prabhu in his heart will become blissful by hearing all these transcendental conclusions. All these conclusions are like the newly grown twigs of a mango tree; they are always pleasing to the devotees, who in this way resemble cuckoo birds."(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, Chapter 4, Texts 231-234)5

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Reply of bija post #429:

nitai-gauranga...nitai-gauranga...nitai-gauranga....

jaya sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu-nityananda sri-advaita gadadhara srivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda

this is how to develop the qualification to one day feel bliss upon hearing these high topics .

Dear bija, dandavat pranam,

We were talking about the qualification to hear the pastimes of Radha Krishna, not about the qualification to feel bliss upon hearing these high topics.

According Sb 10.33. 39 there is one only qualification to hear and discuss about them: faith.

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja

will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain supramundane devotion of the Lord.”

anadi · March 25, 2007

Bija said:

I can understand Srila Prabhupada's merciful heart in wishing to implemement functioning DVD into his institution. To quote..'he built a house the whole world can live in.But would you agree bhaktatraveller that...nitai-gauranga naam is more essential than dvd?

Dear bija dandavat pranam,

It seems that ... you are willingly reject Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta.

Obviously this is due to your attachement to the teachings of the “line”, you identify with, and in this case not only that these teachings are far from being essential for bhakti, but they are against bhakti.

I would try to remember you the significance of the second shloka from Upadeshamrita from Rupa Gosvami:

atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

In diesem Vers Rupa Gosvami describes six enemies of bhakti, or as he says six items - shadbhir which destroy vinasyati the divine devotional service bhakti:

-atyAhAraH accumulating more than necessary for keeping body and soul together (as in the case of varnashram dharma) destroys bhakti

-prayas - undergoing endeavors, others than for attaining bhava - the goal of sadhana bhakti (like varnashrama dharma, which according “prabhupada” a sadhaka should try to implement in the world)- destroys bhakti

-prajalpa – speaking of something else than about bhakti (like about varnashram dharma)– destroys bhakti

-niyamAgrahaH – not following the rules of sadhana bhakti (inventing new rules –like the invention of endeavoring for the implementation of DVD, ...against the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, or doing only for the rules’ sake ) –destroys bhakti

-jana-saGgaz – associating with those that follow something else than bhakti, (like the proponents of DVD)–destroys bhakti

-laulyamM- greed for something else than bhakti, (like greed for the implementation of the new coined dvd)–destroys bhakti.

Bhakti is Absolute, that means Bhakti is its own support. It does need no support from anything …like … varnashram dharma.

Rupa Gosvami says that one’s endeavors for something else than bhakti, destroys the delicate plant of bhakti.

Narada Muni condemns Vyasadeva because he taught Varnashrama dharma in the Vedas.

jugupsitam dharma-krite 'nusasatah

svabhava-raktasya mahan vyatikramah

yad-vakyato dharma ititarah sthito

na manyate tasya nivaranam janah (S.B. 1.5.15)

The conditioned people itarah use varanshram dharma dharma-krite for their natural prepensity to enjoy (the material objects of the senses)-svabhava-raktasya, which is, to be condemned jugupsitam and unreasonable vyatikramah.

Thus iti fixed sthitah under those instructions yat-vakyatah (of varnashrama dharma, that Vyasadeva compiled) the people janah will not think na manyate of that tasya; renunciation nivaranam and to follow those true instructions anu-sa-satah -of the great dharma mahan dharmah (bhakti dharma).

Accordingly they will chant thinking of sense enjoyment, and maha mantra which is like cintamani will fulfill those desires (life time after life time) by watering the seeds of those desires, not the seed of bhakti, whose delicate plant is suffocated by the plants of material desires.

Maha Mantra is like a fertilizer that follows the mind and fertilize those plants where the mind goes.

So, one should purify the mind ...but Varnashram dharma is the opposite of ceto darpana marjanam.

One should follow sadhana bhakti as deliniated by Rupa Gosvami and his followers.

anadi · March 25, 2007

Bija said:

I can understand Srila Prabhupada's merciful heart in wishing to implemement functioning DVD into his institution. To quote..'he built a house the whole world can live in.But would you agree bhaktatraveller that...nitai-gauranga naam is more essential than dvd?

Dear bija dandavat pranam,

It seems that ... you are willingky reject Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta.

Obviously this is due to your attachement to the teachings of the “line”, you identify with, and in this case not only that these teachings are far from being essential for bhakti, but they are against bhakti.

I would try to remember you the significance of the second shloka from Upadeshamrita from Rupa Gosvami:

atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

In diesem Vers Rupa Gosvami describes six enemies of bhakti, or as he says six items - shadbhir which destroy vinasyati the divine devotional service bhakti:

-atyAhAraH accumulating more than necessary for keeping body and soul together destroys bhakti