Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

bija · March 25, 2007

Dear Anadi Prabhu, please accept my simple online obiesances, and greetings.

Please read the following article very closely. There is a great skill involved in sadhana bhakti. I agree with you that if <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">varna</st1:place></st1:city> and ashrama are not performed with correct vision and insight they will accumulate nothing but entanglement.

But we can see the great skill in sadhana bhakti explained so nicely by Thakura in the following words. So the skill in Krsna consciousness is to apply everything in the service of Krsna. So it comes down to vision really, the skill of correct vision.

So I agree with you, that <st1:city w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Varna</st1:place></st1:city> and Ashrama could be a great hinderance, with incorrect vision. But this is not what our acarya’s are teaching. So the importance in spreading and teaching varna and ashrama correctly, would be to have a full grasp of the below writing. Where the results will not be aimed at material prosperity and social success, but aimed fully at Krsna consciousness.

I stress again...it all comes down to correct vision. You are finding discrepancy possibly for want of correct vision. I hope this post can assist you with deeper understanding of the 'skillfull Krsna consciouness' that our beloved Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is so kindly teaching here and how to apply:

Please do not get pedantic and pull my words apart (it is very late at night and I had to type all this out without copy and paste). But instead please try and grasp the essence of the what I am trying to say. What I am trying to say is simple….applying skillfull Krsna consciousness as explained in the following words of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Which is in line with Sri Srila Prabhupada, and Srila Prabhupada’s implementation also regarding 'Varna and Ashrama and Krsna consciouness'.

Firstly here is a very relevant verse in regards to ‘skillfull Krsna consciousness.’

Srila Bhaktivinoda's, Sri Krsna Samhita, Chapter Five, verse two.

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. The appearance of the truth of Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

Sri Krsna Samhita (conclusion) by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

….The wonderful process of bhakti yoga has three phases – sadhana, bhava, and prema.

Due to forgetfullnes of one’s identity, the conditioned living entity under the influence of false ego identifies with his body. The priti that is the constitutional nayure of the living entity is at present pervertedly transformed into priti for objects of the senses. In this condition one should endeavour to follow pratyag-gati for attaining one’s constitutional duites. Under the influence of the false ego, the living entity accepts a form made of material elements and their qualities and with an irreligious mentality and the help of the senses experiences happiness and distress. This material attachment is called parag. In other words one’s internal feelings are improperly flowing externally. When this current is brought back from the external objects, it is called the current of pratyak. The method by which this is achieved is called sadhana bhakti. When one’s original propensities are carried away by the perverted current and the instrument of the senses, then one becomes absorbed in material objects. These propensities then become absorbed in material sense objects – tasting through the tongue, smelling through the nose, seeing through the eyes, hearing through the ears, and feeling through the skin. This current is so powerful that it is not possible for the mind to check it. The process for checking this current is mentioned in the Bhagavad gita as follows (2.59) ‘The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.”

There are two ways for checking this current, if an embodied soul is deprived of sense enjoymeny, his taste for sense objects will certainly be checked. But it is impossible for an embodied soul to remain aloof from material sense objects. So if there is another process to check this current, then it is one’s duty to follow that process. There is one ultimate process to divert the current of attachment from sense objects. When the current of attachment meets rasa, it is enchanted. So if that current is diverted to a rasa that is superior to material rasa, it will naturally accept the superior rasa. As stated in the Srimad BHagvatam (1.5.34) “Thus when all a man’s activities are dedicated to the service of the Lord, those very activities which caused his perpetual bondage become the destroyer of the tree of work.”

This is the principle truth of sadhana on the path of raga. The whole life of a sadhaka on the path of raga is dedicated to cultivating Krsna consciousness. This cultivation is divided into seven categories as follows:

1 Spiritual cultivation – 1 Priti and 2 realization of sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana.

2 Mental cultivation – 1 Rememberance 2 thinking 3 meditation 4 concentrated meditation 5 samadhi 6 consideration of the science of sambandha 7 repentance 8 yama and 9 purification of the heart

3 Bodily cultivation – 1 Niyamas 2 serving others 3 seeing and touching the devotees and Srimad Bhagavatam 4 praying 5 hearing 6 engaging the senses in devotional service 7 transformation of ecstatic love and 8 developing the mood of servitude to the Lord

4 Cultivation of speech – 1 Chanting hymns 2 studying 3 kirtana 4 teaching 5 praying and 6 preaching

5 Cultivation of one’s relationship – 1 santa 2 dasya 3 sakhya 4 vatsalya and 5 kanta. There are two types of relationship – with the Lord and with the Lord’s associates.

6 Social cultivation – 1 Varna –brahmana, ksatriya, vaisaya, and sudra – their occupations and positions are divided according to peoples nature, 2 asrama – grhastha, brahmacarya, vanaprastha, and sannyasa – divided according to people’s social situation 3 assemblies 4 general festivals 5 activities like sacrifice.

7 Cultivation of sense objects – The following sense objects help in the development of Krsna consciousness. 1 The objects of the eyes are the Deity, the temple, the scriptures, the holy places, spiritual dramas, and spiritual festivals 2 the objects of the ears are the scriptures, songs, lectures, and conversations 3 the objects for the nose are tulasi, flowers, sandalwood, and other fragrant items offered to the Lord 4 the objects for the tongue are kirtana and taking avow toaccept only the palatable food stuffs and drinks that were offered to the Lord 5 the objects for the touch are the air of the holy places, pure water, the body of a Vaisnava, the soft bed offered to Krsna, and association with a chaste women in order to propagate a God centered family 6 the times like Hari vasara (Ekadasi ) and festive days and 7 the places like Vrindavaa, Navadvipa, Jagannatha Puri, and Naimisaranya.

If ones’ attachment experiences the higher taste of Krsna consciousness, then that attachment will naturally give up material objects and be absorbed in that higher taste. When attachment is absorbed in material objects, how can it experience a higher taste? Therefore Vasinavas. Who are well-wishes of all living entities, have devised a process for dovetailing material objects with Krsna consciousness. Although the creation of Maya is a perverted reflection of the Absolute Truth, she is the maidservant of the Lord and always engaged in His service. So if one desires to worship Krsna through Maya, she abandons her adverse aspect and accepts that worship with respect as a devotee. This is the great mystery of the Vaisnava faith. In order to establish the Vaisnava family for the welfare of the living entities, Sri Narada Goswami gave Vyasadeva the following hint in the Srmad Bhagavatam (1.5.20)

Idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetaro

Yato jagat sthana nirodha sambhavah

Tad dhi svayam veda bhavams tathapi te

Pradesa matram bhavatah pradarsitam

“Know for certain that this material world is non different from the lOrd because it is created, maintained, and annihilated by Him. The spiritual world, Vaikuntha, is the Lords eternal abode. This visible material world is only the reflection of Vaikuntha. The ingredients, existence, and nature of this material world are are simpley imitations of Vaikuntha. The conditioned living entities are the enjoyers of this material world. The fault of the material world is that the living entities here are rebellious by nature. O Vyasadeva, don’t be afraid of describing the pastimes of the Lord through the medium of this material world, because, in truth, describing the material world is the same as describing Vaikuntha, for they are considered material or spiritual only due to one’s conviction. If you describe this material world in terms of its relationship with the Supreme Lord, then your attachment for Vaikuntha will automatically awaken. This fact is already known to you through your own self realization. Since you have asked me, I have given you this synopsis. Please, therefore, describe the pastimes of the Lord through the process of natural Samadhi and thus guide the living entities toward Vaikuntha. You have previously described mundane religious principles and the process of pseudo Samadhi, which are not always beneficial.”

People who follow the pratyak current have established the whole world as a Vaisnava family by dovetailing material objects in God consciousness…….In this way they gradually engage their senses and sense objects in the service of the Lord and thus increase their internal current of raga by providing their senses with a higher taste. This is called sadhana bhakti….

bhaktatraveler · March 25, 2007

This is the subject, DVD, Begger. Your quote and retoric is irrelivent to this thread. Just as much as Anadi's

TEXT 26

TEXT

PaurizSv>aavivihTaaNa( YaQaav<A| p YaQaai[MaMa( )<>

vEraGYaraGaaePaaiDa>YaaMaaManaTaae>aYal/+a<AANA( p 26 )) ))<> purusha-sva-bhava-vihitan

yatha-varnam yathasramam

vairagya-ragopadhibhyam

amnatobhaya-lakshanan

SYNONYMS

purusha—the human being; sva-bhava—by his own acquired qualities; vihitan—prescribed; yatha—according to; varnam—classification of castes; yatha—according to; asramam—orders of life; vairagya—detachment; raga—attachment; upadhibhyam—out of such designations; amnata—systematically; ubhaya—both; lakshanan—symptoms.

TRANSLATION

At Maharaja Yudhishthira’s inquiry, Bhishmadeva first defined all the classifications of castes and orders of life in terms of the individual’s qualifications. Then he systematically, in twofold divisions, described counteraction by detachment and interaction by attachment.

PURPORT

The conception of four castes and four orders of life, as planned by the Lord Himself (Bg. 4.13), is to accelerate transcendental qualities of the individual person so that he may gradually realize his spiritual identity and thus act accordingly to get free from material bondage, or conditional life. In almost all the Puranas the subject matter is described in the same spirit, and so also in the Mahabharata it is more elaborately described by Bhishmadeva in the Santi-parva, beginning from the sixtieth chapter.

The varnasrama-dharma is prescribed for the civilized human being just to train him to successfully terminate human life. Self-realization is distinguished from the life of the lower animals engaged in eating, sleeping, fearing and mating. Bhishmadeva advised for all human beings nine qualifications: (1) not to become angry, (2) not to lie, (3) to equally distribute wealth, (4) to forgive, (5) to beget children only by one’s legitimate wife, (6) to be pure in mind and hygienic in body, (7) not to be inimical toward anyone, (8) to be simple, and (9) to support servants or subordinates. One cannot be called a civilized person without acquiring the above-mentioned preliminary qualities. Besides these, the brahmanas (the intelligent men), the administrative men, the mercantile community and the laborer class must acquire special qualities in terms of occupational duties mentioned in all the Vedic scriptures. For the intelligent men, controlling the senses is the most essential qualification. It is the basis of morality. Sex indulgence even with a legitimate wife must also be controlled, and thereby family control will automatically follow. An intelligent man abuses his great qualifications if he does not follow the Vedic way of life. This means he must seriously make a study of the Vedic literatures, especially of the Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Bhagavad-gita. For learning Vedic knowledge, one must approach a person who is cent percent engaged in devotional service. He must not do things which are forbidden in the sastras. A person cannot be a teacher if he drinks or smokes. In the modern system of education the teacher’s academic qualification is taken into consideration without evaluation of his moral life. Therefore, the result of education is misuse of high intelligence in so many ways.

The kshatriya, the member of the administrative class, is especially advised to give charity and not to accept charity in any circumstances. Modern administrators raise subscriptions for some political functions, but never give charity to the citizens in any state function. It is just the reverse in the injunctions of the sastras. The administrative class must be well versed in the sastras, but must not take to the profession of teachers. The administrators should never pretend to become nonviolent and thereby go to hell. When Arjuna wanted to become a nonviolent coward on the Battlefield of Kurukshetra, he was severely chastised by Lord Krishna. The Lord degraded Arjuna at that time to the status of an uncivilized man for his avowed acceptance of the cult of nonviolence. The administrative class must be personally trained in military education. Cowards should not be elevated to the presidential throne by dint of numerical votes only. The monarchs were all chivalrous personalities, and therefore monarchy should be maintained provided the monarch is regularly trained in the occupational duties of a king. In fighting, the king or the president should never return home without being hurt by the enemy. The so-called king of today never visits the warfield. He is very much expert in artificially encouraging the fighting strength in the hope of false national prestige. As soon as the administrative class is turned into a gang of mercantile and laborer men, the whole machinery of government becomes polluted.

The vaisyas, the members of the mercantile communities, are especially advised to protect the cows. Cow protection means increasing the milk productions, namely curd and butter. Agriculture and distribution of the foodstuff are the primary duties of the mercantile community backed by education in Vedic knowledge and trained to give in charity. As the kshatriyas were given charge of the protection of the citizens, vaisyas were given the charge of the protection of animals. Animals are never meant to be killed. Killing of animals is a symptom of barbarian society. For a human being, agricultural produce, fruits and milk are sufficient and compatible foodstuffs. The human society should give more attention to animal protection. The productive energy of the laborer is misused when he is occupied by industrial enterprises. Industry of various types cannot produce the essential needs of man, namely rice, wheat, grains, milk, fruits and vegetables. The production of machines and machine tools increases the artificial living fashion of a class of vested interests and keeps thousands of men in starvation and unrest. This should not be the standard of civilization.

The sudra class is less intelligent and should have no independence. They are meant for rendering sincere service to the three higher sections of the society. The sudra class can attain all comforts of life simply by rendering service to the higher classes. It is especially enjoined that a sudra should never bank money. As soon as the sudras accumulate wealth, it will be misused for sinful activities in wine, women and gambling. Wine, women and gambling indicate that the population is degraded to less than sudra quality. The higher castes should always look after the maintenance of the sudras, and they should provide them with old and used garments. A sudra should not leave his master when the master is old and invalid, and the master should keep the servants satisfied in all respects. The sudras must first of all be satisfied by sumptuous food and clothing before any sacrifice is performed. In this age so many functions are held by spending millions, but the poor laborer is not sumptuously fed or given charity, clothing, etc. The laborers are thus dissatisfied, and so they make agitation.

The varnas are, so to speak, classifications of different occupations, and asrama-dharma is gradual progress on the path of self-realization. Both are interrelated, and one is dependent on the other. The main purpose of asrama-dharma is to awaken knowledge and detachment. The brahmacari asrama is the training ground for the prospective candidates. In this asrama it is instructed that this material world is not actually the home of the living being. The conditioned souls under material bondage are prisoners of matter, and therefore self-realization is the ultimate aim of life. The whole system of asrama-dharma is a means to detachment. One who fails to assimilate this spirit of detachment is allowed to enter into family life with the same spirit of detachment. Therefore, one who attains detachment may at once adopt the fourth order, namely, renounced, and thus live on charity only, not to accumulate wealth, but just to keep body and soul together for ultimate realization. Household life is for one who is attached, and the vanaprastha and sannyasa orders of life are for those who are detached from material life. The brahmacari-asrama is especially meant for training both the attached and detached.

(END)

CBR

astrobhadauria · March 25, 2007

A story I heared in childhood,Naradji thinked in his mind that he was the supper bhakta of vishnuji,and went to vishnuji then asked to him,Who is the supper Bhakta in this Brhmand?,Vishnuji thinked in his mind and replied for his answer that a farmer living in Mrtuloka,he is the supper Bhakta of Vishnu,Naradji went to in the home of farmaer and start to feel how that farmer is supper from him.The daily life of that farmer was very busy,before sun rise he wake up and chant three time 'narayan,narayan,narayan,and start his daily work,and when he goes to sleep then three time he chant 'narayan,narayan,narayan,naradji went to Vishnuji and start to say,I am chanting your name full day and full night,and that farmer chant only for the six time perday,then how posible that farmer is great then naradji.Vishnuji,said to him,one day he will make answer how that farmer is more great then naradji.

After long time one day naradji,vishnuji,laxmiji,and other gods and goddess siting for the making sense of brahmand,a god came to vishnuji and hinted to all devoties that Dasha of shai is coming on vishnuji,if some body make the pradakchhina with a pot of oil,then something is good with vishnuji,naradji seen in the eyes of vishnuji and start the prakchhina with the pot of oil of vishnuji,after making prdakchhina naradji give that oil to bhaddari,and start to next topic of the world,in the topic,vishnuji asked to naradji,when was busy in the prdakchhina,which time he chant the name of narayana,naradji answered to vishnuji,if he chant narayana that time,the oil start to fall in the earth,vishnuji replied the answer of naradji,that farmer every day felling with the narayana after doing all the works and maintaining the full family like the pot of oil,and after that he is chanting continuesly narayana,narayana,narayana,everyday.Then who is the supper bhkta of Vishnuji?

anadi · March 25, 2007

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place u1:st="on"><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. The appearance of the truth of Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

</st1:place>

Dear bija, dandavat

It seems quite logical, and the idea of proper vision sounds convincing, but the practice shows the opposite...

Let's take under scrutiny the quotes you gave .

The gopis were advised to worship Goddess Katyayani to get <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as husband, because Katyayani vrata in oktober-november, fulfills the wish to marry the person one desires.

But Goddess Katyayani cannot give <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. She Herself has no access to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

How did the gopis get <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>? Because <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> wanted so, not because of maya.

And secondly the gopis under discussion were not sadhakas but sadhan-siddhas

No sadhaka will follow such injuctions of varna-ashrama dharma.

This example is not an evidence that a sadhaka should take shelter of maya in the form of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth.

The gopis had no interest in taking shelter of maya in searching for the indescribable truth.

They renounce any dharma for the sake of love for Kishor Krishna

This is the principle truth of sadhana on the path of raga. The whole life of a sadhaka on the path of raga is dedicated to cultivating Krsna consciousness. This cultivation is divided into seven categories as follows:
<u1:p>…

<u1:p>6 Social cultivation – 1 Varna –brahmana, ksatriya, vaisaya, and sudra – their occupations and positions are divided according to peoples nature, 2 asrama – grhastha, brahmacarya, vanaprastha, and sannyasa – divided according to people’s social situation 3 assemblies

Reply

: This is agaisnt Gaudiya Bhakti Siddhanta.

Nor Mahaprabhu, neither Rupa, Raghunata das, as the most prominent raganungas or their followers ever wrote about the social cultivation as an anga of sadhana bhakti, be it vaidhi or raganunga, but were against it.

One of the reason Mahaprabhu chose Srimad Bhagavatam as the imaculate evidence is for the very reasons the rejects varnashram-dharma:

</u1:p></u1:p>dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ

vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

Herein (in Srimad Bhagavatam) atra the occupational duties dharmaḥ(varNa ashram) kaitavaḥ are completely rejected projjhita

and the highest knowledge paramaḥ vedyam for the pious ones nirmatsarāṇām satām (about) the truly vāstavam all auspicious śivadam Object vastu (the Supreme Sweet Lord) causing the uprooting unmūlanam of the threefold miseries tāpa-traya has been presented kṛte (as) the beautiful śrīmat opulent (and sweet) Lord bhāgavate by the great sage (Vyāsadeva) mahā-muni.

What kim others paraiḥ is to be needed vā ? By hearing śuśrūṣubhiḥ this śrīmat bhāgavate) quickly sadyaḥ the Supreme Lord īśvaraḥ will be arrested avarudhyate in the heart hṛdi by a pious one kṛtibhiḥ at once tat-kṣaṇāt.

Raghunatha das Gosvami says directly in his Teachings to the Mind that one should not endeavor for varNashram dharma.

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

O mind manaH indeed kila do not perform na kuru varnashrma dharma dharmam as mentioned niruktam in the revealed scriptures – zruti-gaNa nor activities against dharma adharmaM na rather param perform tanu profuse pracura service paricaryAm for Radha-Krishna rAdhA-kRSNa here iha in Vraja-dhama vraje and certainly nanu always ajasram remember (meditate upon) smara the son of Saci (Sri Caitanya) zacI-sUnuM as the son of the master of Nanda-grAma (Nanda Baba - the father of Krishna) nandIzvara-pati-sutatve and guru guru-varaM as being as most dear preSThatve to the Giver of Liberation (the Lord) mukunda.

bija · March 25, 2007

Dear Anadi Prabhu, dandavats and pranams,

It seems quite logical, and the idea of proper vision sounds convincing...quote by Anadi.

Yes Anadi...it is actually more than logic. I would say that for the sage this realization comes from deep absorption/contemplation into Absolute Truth. Please do keep considering this point.

As far as my knowledge of scripture understands, you are totally correct in saying that Srimad Bhagavatam rejects Varnashrama Dharma. Previously there was Dharma shastras written by the great sage. Now I am not well read on Dharma shastra, but I am sure that the goal taught in these shastras is a mixed goal. This is where the Srimad Bhagavatam is different, because the goal of the Bhagavatam is not mixed but spotless, everything in relation to Krsna (aiming at love of God).

So other concepts had mixed goals and were processes to gradually raise one's position. Whether religiosity, economic development, sense gratification, liberation... (and finally love of God). So previously Vyasadeva had outlined the step by step process. Religiosity>economic development> sense gratification>liberation>...(and finally love of God).

But this concept of 'skill in Krsna consciousness (skill in sadhana-bhakti)', is still in line with the spotless teaching of Srimad Bhagavatam. Vaisnava siddhanta. That is why I quoted the verse from Sri Krsna Samhita of the Gopis (perfected living entities - sadhan siddhas) as taking shelter of Yoga Maaya. Are we not in our Raga Bhakti to follow in the footsteps of the Sadhan Siddhas. And how does this come about? We will be given the chance upon perfection of our Naam Bhajana to take birth in Gokula (the Lord's manifest pastimes in a material universe) to become trained by following the footsteps of the eternal associates of the Lord by their direct association.

So before we reach that stage of perfection in Gokula, we are to practice Raga-bhakti in this very life through specifically Naam Bhajana (chanting of the Holy Names). So we take shelter of the Nitya-Siddhas in this very birth...in preparation for Gokula. And from Gokula we become qualified for Goloka. That is why I quoted the specific verse from Sri Krsna Samhita. We are to follow these Gopies now (if we have gained the qualification).

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. The appearance of the truth of Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

We take the very same process of taking shelter of Yoga-Maaya. Everything without relation to Krsna (through incorrect vision - neglecting the Absolute Tuth) is Maaya. But everything with relation to Krsna is non-different to Krsna. So here Maaya herself becomes favorable instead of unfavorable. She begins to serve the devotee. She becomes Yoga-Maaya.

The term used by the Acarya's is dovetailng. Everthing that is dovetailed in Krsna's service becomes active through the Yoga-maaya principle. The is the great secret of Krsna consciousness, free from the influence of the deluding potency (three modes).

This very same Yoga-Maaya that works in Gokula has potency to serve right here and now. So this is where Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is quite correct in teaching 'skillful Krsna consciousness - with correct vision'. In fact everthing , with correct vision, is in relation to Krsna. The very essence of Srimad Bhagavatam itself. It is not Dharma Shastra. It is Bhagavata Shastra. As the person Krsna is Bhagavata, so also the Vaisnava is bhagavata. Because everything he does is in relation to Krsna.

Please read once again this great skill in the Vaisnava's practice of sadhana-bhakti following in the footsteps of the Ragatmika devotees. (Raganuga bhakti).

If ones’ attachment experiences the higher taste of Krsna consciousness, then that attachment will naturally give up material objects and be absorbed in that higher taste. When attachment is absorbed in material objects, how can it experience a higher taste? Therefore Vasinavas. Who are well-wishes of all living entities, have devised a process for dovetailing material objects with Krsna consciousness. Although the creation of Maya is a perverted reflection of the Absolute Truth, she is the maidservant of the Lord and always engaged in His service. So if one desires to worship Krsna through Maya, she abandons her adverse aspect and accepts that worship with respect as a devotee. This is the great mystery of the Vaisnava faith. In order to establish the Vaisnava family for the welfare of the living entities, Sri Narada Goswami gave Vyasadeva the following hint in the Srmad Bhagavatam (1.5.20)

Idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetaro

Yato jagat sthana nirodha sambhavah

Tad dhi svayam veda bhavams tathapi te

Pradesa matram bhavatah pradarsitam

“Know for certain that this material world is non different from the Lord because it is created, maintained, and annihilated by Him. The spiritual world, Vaikuntha, is the Lords eternal abode. This visible material world is only the reflection of Vaikuntha. The ingredients, existence, and nature of this material world are are simply imitations of Vaikuntha. The conditioned living entities are the enjoyers of this material world. The fault of the material world is that the living entities here are rebellious by nature. O Vyasadeva, don’t be afraid of describing the pastimes of the Lord through the medium of this material world, because, in truth, describing the material world is the same as describing Vaikuntha, for they are considered material or spiritual only due to one’s conviction. If you describe this material world in terms of its relationship with the Supreme Lord, then your attachment for Vaikuntha will automatically awaken. This fact is already known to you through your own self realization. Since you have asked me, I have given you this synopsis. Please, therefore, describe the pastimes of the Lord through the process of natural Samadhi and thus guide the living entities toward Vaikuntha. You have previously described mundane religious principles and the process of pseudo Samadhi, which are not always beneficial.”

Correct vision and conviction is the key here. Or to use another term for this correct vision in relation to consciousness - Krsna consciousness. The vasinava ideal is not one of renunciation of the material (by which love of God will never be achieved), but is one of application. Positive existence! The essence of the geat Srimad Bhagavatam (placing everything in relation to Krsna).

Please try to understand the difference between Vaisnava siddhanta and other processes. I hope this clears things up somewhat. If there is any discrepancy in my explanations here - then simply take the essence (which the wise sage will always do).

This is the principle truth of sadhana on the path of raga. The whole life of a sadhaka on the path of raga is dedicated to cultivating Krsna consciousness. This cultivation is divided into seven categories as follows:

1 Spiritual cultivation – 1 Priti and 2 realization of sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana.

2 Mental cultivation – 1 Rememberance 2 thinking 3 meditation 4 concentrated meditation 5 samadhi 6 consideration of the science of sambandha 7 repentance 8 yama and 9 purification of the heart

3 Bodily cultivation – 1 Niyamas 2 serving others 3 seeing and touching the devotees and Srimad Bhagavatam 4 praying 5 hearing 6 engaging the senses in devotional service 7 transformation of ecstatic love and 8 developing the mood of servitude to the Lord

4 Cultivation of speech – 1 Chanting hymns 2 studying 3 kirtana 4 teaching 5 praying and 6 preaching

5 Cultivation of one’s relationship – 1 santa 2 dasya 3 sakhya 4 vatsalya and 5 kanta. There are two types of relationship – with the Lord and with the Lord’s associates.

6 Social cultivation – 1 Varna –brahmana, ksatriya, vaisaya, and sudra – their occupations and positions are divided according to peoples nature, 2 asrama – grhastha, brahmacarya, vanaprastha, and sannyasa – divided according to people’s social situation 3 assemblies 4 general festivals 5 activities like sacrifice.

I would kindly suggest you to read Sri Krsna Samhita by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Personally I have barely touched upon its depths (it is the sweet essence of Srimad Bhagavatam), so to be honest I am not so qualified to enter this discussion deeply. What I have shared with you is some small realizations, really I cannot go beyond this point, otherwise I will be just parroting words from scripture.

It contains some very nice hints into the nature of 'swanlike vaisnavism'. I know you love reading, so please consider.

It can be downloaded here: http://www.nitaiveda.com<wbr>/nitaiveda.zip

or www.nitaiveda.com for online version.

Also this Nitaiveda download contains many other books by the eternal associates of Sri Caitanya. Many of the books contained in the Nitaiveda will not be in contradiction to your choice of following 'traditional Gaudiya Vaisnavism - to use your terminology'. Please check this download out...there are many books which you will love...and they are free. This is the biggest collection of downloadable Gaudiya scripture in one place on the net (in program form) that I am aware of. My hope is that you may enjoy this and keep it for further reference and study (an addition to your current library).

peace to you,

y.s. bija.

bija · March 25, 2007

RAGANUGA-BHAKTI

C.C. Madhya 22.149

ragatmika-bhakti--`mukhya' vraja-vasi-jane

tara anugata bhaktira `raganuga'-name

ragatmika-bhakti-spontaneous devotional service; mukhya-preeminent; vraja-vasi-jane-in the inhabitants of Vraja, or Vrndavana; tara-that; anugata-following; bhaktira-of devotional service; raganuga-name-named raganuga or following after spontaneous devotional service.

"The original inhabitants of Vrndavana are attached to Krishna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called ragatmika bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vrndavana, his devotional service is called raganuga bhakti.

Srila Bhaktivinoda's, Sri Krsna Samhita, Chapter Five, verse two.

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. The appearance of the truth of Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

anadi · March 26, 2007

Dear Bjia, dandavat

as I said

<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">It seems quite logical, and the idea of proper vision sounds convincing...quote by Anadi. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

you replied:

Yes Anadi...it is actually more than logic. I would say that for the sage this realization comes from deep absorption/contemplation into Absolute Truth. Please do keep considering this point.

Dear Bjia,

Brahma Samhita, the book you quote from, is not a book of revelation, but a book of commentaries, as Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself says:

„I had a great desire to translate Srimad Bhagavatam in this proper swanlike way, but I have no time to translate his huge work. For this reason I am now extracting the main purport of this great literature and presenting in this form of this Sri Krishna-samhita.”

you also said:

As far as my knowledge of scripture understands, you are totally correct in saying that Srimad Bhagavatam rejects Varnashrama Dharma. Previously there was Dharma shastras written by the great sage. Now I am not well read on Dharma shastra, but I am sure that the goal taught in these shastras is a mixed goal. This is where the Srimad Bhagavatam is different, because the goal of the Bhagavatam is not mixed but spotless, everything in relation to Krsna (aiming at love of God).

How can you be sure, if you don’t know?

The goal in the dharma shastra is not mixed; we have information in Srimad Bhagavatam about it:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13)

"O best among the twice-born, the highest perfection of the human being is to please Lord Hari by discharging one’s occupational prescribed duties according the divisions of varnashram."

This is the first type of perfection of life and it was first rejected by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

you added:

...this concept of 'skill in Krsna consciousness (skill in sadhana-bhakti)', is still in line with the spotless teaching of Srimad Bhagavatam. Vaisnava siddhanta.

This 'skill in Krsna consciousness (skill in sadhana-bhakti)' doesn’t mean one should implement varana-ashram dharma, but according his material position one should do everything to implement sadhana bhakti in one’s life, you know… association with

sadhu saNga, nama kirtanan, bhagavat shravan,

mathura vasa, sri murtira shradaya sevan

and prepare for

tan nama rupa caritady sukirtananu srmirtyo kramena rasana manasi niojiya/ tishtan vraja tat anuragi jananu gami kalam nayet akila iti upadsha sara,

to first attain realization of Radha-Krishna, … this is the goal, not to built preaching centers, this is secondary, this is external.

you said:

That is why I quoted the verse from Sri Krsna Samhita of the Gopis (perfected living entities - sadhan siddhas) as taking shelter of Yoga Maaya.

Reply:

As already explained this has nothing to do with the implementation of Varnashram-dharma and secondly - maya cannot give <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. It is the will of Krishna by which He reveals to the devotee.

Are we not in our Raga Bhakti to follow in the footsteps of the Sadhan Siddhas?
So before we reach that stage of perfection in Gokula, we are to practice Raga-bhakti in this very life through specifically Naam Bhajana (chanting of the Holy Names). So we take shelter of the Nitya-Siddhas in this very birth...in preparation for Gokula. And from Gokula we become qualified for Goloka. That is why I quoted the specific verse from Sri Krsna Samhita. We are to follow these Gopies now (if we have gained the qualification).

How to follow the sadhan siddhas?

1. of course not to worship Goddess Katyayani to get Krishna as husband, than for that one should be in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> lila, i.e one is no sadhaka anymore.

2. their example of practicing the worshiping of a demigoddess to get Krishna as husband doesn’t mean a sadhaka should implement varna-ashrama dharma to attain Krishna, but according his qualification the sadhaka should practice sadhana bhakti, which of course is on the material platform of maya, by which the sadhaka use material senses and the material objects of the senses in sadhana bhakti, and in this connection one should see the instructions of Lord Caitanya to Sanatan regarding how one should dress, and what one should eat, to keep away the propensity to enjoy maya.

you also said:

Are we not in our Raga Bhakti to follow in the footsteps of the Sadhan Siddhas. And how does this come about? We will be given the chance upon perfection of our Naam Bhajana to take birth in Gokula (the Lord's manifest pastimes in a material universe) to become trained by following the footsteps of the eternal associates of the Lord by their direct association.

The perfection of our Naam Bhajana has nothing to do with the implementation of DVD, as long as … Nama Bhajana does not depend on it.

bija · March 26, 2007

What I have shared with you is some small realizations, really I cannot go beyond this point, otherwise I will be just parroting words from scripture. quote by bija

Dear Anadi Prabhu, dandavats and pranams.

Thank you for this small discussion. I have presented my conclusions using scriptural evidence from the words of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. In regards to dovetailing material items in Krsna consciousness.

Therefore Vasinavas. Who are well-wishes of all living entities, have devised a process for dovetailing material objects with Krsna consciousness. Although the creation of Maya is a perverted reflection of the Absolute Truth, she is the maidservant of the Lord and always engaged in His service. So if one desires to worship Krsna through Maya, she abandons her adverse aspect and accepts that worship with respect as a devotee. This is the great mystery of the Vaisnava faith. quote by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

and given evidence that varna and ashrama can also be dovetailed in Krsna consciousness....

This is the principle truth of sadhana on the path of raga. The whole life of a sadhaka on the path of raga is dedicated to cultivating Krsna consciousness. This cultivation is divided into seven categories as follows:

6 Social cultivation – 1 Varna –brahmana, ksatriya, vaisaya, and sudra – their occupations and positions are divided according to peoples nature, 2 asrama – grhastha, brahmacarya, vanaprastha, and sannyasa – divided according to people’s social situation 3 assemblies 4 general festivals 5 activities like sacrifice. quote by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

So from here I will have to leave this conversation. Really if you are unable to have faith in his words, and see the practical grace he has given here, for the fallen living entities, there is no real point continuing our discussion.

Personally I accept his words as authority (and practical guide), and accept him as an eternal associate of our Lordships. Thank you for the conversation over the last few days, I have enjoyed it alot. It is a great oppurtunity to study scripture and pen down some basic understandings. And of course refine where some of my understandings of scripture may not be quite correct (or need to be explained clearer).

Please let it be clear that I do not affiliate myself with the dvd proponents on this thread, as I am not fully aware of their agendas and interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's desires.

peace to you,

talk to you soon,

bija.

anadi · March 26, 2007

Dear bija, Dandavat,

It is nice to talk to someone who accepts shastra, and speaks in therms of shastra.

You gave this quote:

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world." (from Krishna Samhita 5.2)

1. It is not proper to project what sadhan siddhas do, on the level of the sadhaks should do.

2. Taking shelter of favorable material items is not part of varnashram dharma but part of sharanagati : anuklyasa sankalpa

3. Bhaktivinoda contradict Himself equalizing Maha-Maya – The Goddess ruling over the material worlds monitoring the external energy bahiranga-shakti with Yoga-Maya - The Goddess ruling over the spiritual worlds, monitoring the internal energy antaranga-shakti, because he says that one should take shelter of material items favorable for bhakti and for this reason the gopis took shelter of Yoga-maya. But Yoga Maya has nothing to do with any material items.

So, his logic is ... (I have to say it) wrong.

It is hard to accept that he said something wrong, but you can see also in the Introduction (page 33) of his Krishna Samhita (1998 Edition, translated by Bhumipati das), he puts the prajapatis' beginning date at 4463 B.C. and other wrong data, and this of course doesn't say one should reject everything he wrote. There are many wonderful insights in this book of his, and I was very enthusiastic as I read it, but also a bit confused about statements that didn't suit with Gaudiya siddhanta.

As the sun cannot enjoy his shadow, krishna cannot enjoy maya.(k.s.3.14)

Krishna forbade His devotees from performing any activities others than those meant for maintaing their lives (from Krishna Samhita 5.10)

That is why the real sadhakas that want to perform bhajan, only in the evening go in madhukari, otherwise being engaged in bhajan.

bija · March 26, 2007

3. Bhaktivinoda contradict Himself equalizing Maha-Maya – The Goddess ruling over the material worlds monitoring the external energy bahiranga-shakti with Yoga-Maya - The Goddess ruling over the spiritual worlds, monitoring the internal energy antaranga-shakti, because he says that one should take shelter of material items favorable for bhakti and for this reason the gopis took shelter of Yoga-maya. But Yoga Maya has nothing to do with any material items.
So, his logic is ... (I have to say it) wrong. quote by anadi

Dear anadi, you have misunderstood the verse quoted. You are twisting everything back to front. The verse is actually describing three types of devotees. And your copy and paste of the verse is also incorrect by the way.

Srila Bhaktivinoda's, Sri Krsna Samhita, Chapter Five, verse two.

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. The appearance of the truth of Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

The verse actually decribes nitya-siddhas and perfected sadhakas and sadhakas. If you read it closely.

The perfected sadhakas are decribed thus..."For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

The Nitya-siddhas are described thus...Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

And in fact if you read it closer the third type of devotee described...It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth.

I believe this section just quoted is reffering to the ordinary sadhaka, such as myself (for example). Who is dovetailing his actvities by taking shelter of favorable material items and trying to search for the indescribable truth.

So three levels are described here:

1. Sadhaka - applying the favorable material senses and objects in sadhana-bhakti.

2. Perfected sadhakas who have taken shelter of Yoga-maaya.

3. Gopis of Vraj (Nitya Siddhas) - under the shelter of Yoga-maaya, with hankering of meeting Krsna, being overwhelmed by the sound of His flute.

So his ability to describe such truth through his commentaries is not wrong. Please consider your limited understandings are wrong. I have given evidence of the correct interpretation above, which clearly explains away all the discrepancies you have found. And also backs up my line of thought in my previous posts. If they are read correctly (looking beyond my lack of english expression).

And your use of the evidence below, to back up your claim that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is prone to making mistakes, is flimsy at the best.

it is hard to accept that he said something wrong, but you can see also in the Introduction (page 33) of his Krishna Samhita (1998 Edition, translated by Bhumipati das), he puts the prajapatis' beginning date at 4463 B.C. and other wrong data, and this of course doesn't say one should reject everything he wrote. There are many wonderful insights in this book of his, and I was very enthusiastic as I read it, but also a bit confused about statements that didn't suit with Gaudiya siddhanta. quote by anadi

The introduction was not written for devotees. But for mundane scholars etc. So he has tried to write in a way that they may gradually come to accept the greatness of Vaisnavism and the conception of Mahaprabhu. So whether the dates about prajapatis is correct or incorrect is irrelevant. Mundane scholars have many conflicting dates in chronolgy of history of Bharata. This is irrelevant to suddha-bhakti.

The importance for the devotee, is the middle section of Sri Krsna Samhita. This section is without blemish. That is to say, he has not made errors in his commentaries (describing the essence of the Bhagavatam).

I do not have a problem with your lack of faith in Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentary. But it is a precarious position to say we know better than a great acarya. Could the want of knowledge and realization be in yourself?

peace to you,

y.s. bija.

bija · March 26, 2007

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> As far as my knowledge of scripture understands, you are totally correct in saying that Srimad Bhagavatam rejects Varnashrama Dharma. Previously there was Dharma shastras written by the great sage. Now I am not well read on Dharma shastra, but I am sure that the goal taught in these shastras is a mixed goal. This is where the Srimad Bhagavatam is different, because the goal of the Bhagavatam is not mixed but spotless, everything in relation to Krsna (aiming at love of God).quote by bija </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

How can you be sure, if you don’t know?
The goal in the dharma shastra is not mixed; we have information in Srimad Bhagavatam about it:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13)

"O best among the twice-born, the highest perfection of the human being is to please Lord Hari by discharging one’s occupational prescribed duties according the divisions of varnashram." quote by anadi

Thank you for correcting me here, with your knowledge and clear understandings in this regard.

What I should have said is that, some followers of these vedic literatures may develop mixed goals (They follow the process of insignificant fruitive activities and become materialistic quote Sri Krishna Samhita).

Sri Krsna Samhita Chapter 5 text 5
brahmanamsh ca jagannatho yajnannam samayacata

brahmana na dadur bhaktam varnabhimanino yatah

While tending the cows near Mathura, Shri Krishna begged food grains from the brahmanas who were engaged in sacrifice. Being proud of their caste, those brahmanas considered that performing sacrifices was the highest principle and therefore did not give Krishna any food.

Sri Krsna Samhita Chapter 5 text 6

veda-vada-rata viprah karma-jnana-parayanah

vidhinam vahakah shashvat katham krishna-rata hi te

The reason for this is that high-caste brahmanas are so-called followers of the Vedas, and therefore they cannot realize the subtle purport of the Vedas. They follow the process of insignificant fruitive activities and become materialistic, or they study the science of self-realization and speculative knowledge and become absorbed in impersonalism. Such brahmanas prefer to simply remain controlled by the scriptural injunctions or previous ancestors by formally carrying out their instructions. They are unable to understand that attachment to the Lord is the primary purpose of all scriptures, so how can they become servants of Krishna? We should not misunderstand from this that all brahmanas are mundane fruitive workers or followers of speculative knowledge. Many great personalities appeared in brahmana families and attained the topmost position of devotional service. Therefore the purport of this verse is that asslike brahmanas who formally carry out the rules and regulations are averse to Krishna, but swanlike brahmanas are servants of Krishna and thus worshipable by all.

anadi · March 26, 2007

Dear bija, dandavat,

You wrote:

The perfected sadhakas are decribed thus..."For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

These perfect sadhakas are called sadhan –siddhas

you also said:

The Nitya-siddhas are described thus...Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place u1:st="on"></st1:place><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

Why do you say that only nitya siddha gopis were overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja and sadhan-siddha gopis were not?

All the young gopis of Vraja did it, the sadhan siddhas too.

anadi · March 26, 2007

Dear bija, danadavat,

you quoted me

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> 3. Bhaktivinoda contradict Himself equalizing Maha-Maya – The Goddess ruling over the material worlds monitoring the external energy bahiranga-shakti with Yoga-Maya - The Goddess ruling over the spiritual worlds, monitoring the internal energy antaranga-shakti, because he says that one should take shelter of material items favorable for bhakti and for this reason the gopis took shelter of Yoga-maya. But Yoga Maya has nothing to do with any material items.

So, his logic is ... (I have to say it) wrong. quote by anadi

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

and said:

Dear anadi, you have misunderstood the verse quoted. You are twisting everything back to front.

Dear bija,

Let’s look very carefully to the statements of Bhaktivinoda Thakura from Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2

First statement under debate:

1. It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items…(Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2)

Second statement under debate:

2. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."(Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2)

This conclusion is drawn by Bhaktivinode allegedly based on the statement No.1

In the statement No.1 sadhakas should take shelter of (favorable material items) of Maha-maya. – first step of sharanagati

And according to Bhaktivinoda Thakura because of this (For this reason), should the sadhan-siddhas (living entities who have attained the mood of gopis) take shelter of Yoga Maya

This logic is faulty because:

the activities of the sadhakas are not reasons for the activities of sadhan siddhas
Yoga-Maya is not Maha-Maya.
Taking shelter of favorable material items has nothing to do with the worshiping of Yoga-Maya, which is beyond the material .

you also quoted me:

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> it is hard to accept that he said something wrong, but you can see also in the Introduction (page 33) of his Krishna Samhita (1998 Edition, translated by Bhumipati das), he puts the prajapatis' beginning date at 4463 B.C. and other wrong data, and this of course doesn't say one should reject everything he wrote. There are many wonderful insights in this book of his, and I was very enthusiastic as I read it, but also a bit confused about statements that didn't suit with Gaudiya siddhanta.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

and replied:

The introduction was not written for devotees. But for mundane scholars etc....

Reply:

Where did Bhaktivinoda said that?

and than you concluded:

I do not have a problem with your lack of faith in Srila Bhaktivinoda's commentary. But it is a precarious position to say we know better than a great acarya. Could the want of knowledge and realization be in yourself?

Dear bija, I didn’t say I know better. I showed what is wrong in Bhaktivinoda’s statements, and that his statements are not always the Absolut Truth.

bija · March 26, 2007

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The Nitya-siddhas are described thus...Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place u1:st="on"></st1:place><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Why do you say that only nitya siddha gopis were overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja and sadhan-siddha gopis were not?

All the young gopis of Vraja did it, the sadhan siddhas too. quote by anadi

I did not say such a thing. Your quote here is ofcourse obvious truth. And therefore I felt it need not be said. I chose not to mention this...to bring forth the concepts of three types of devotees being mentioned in the verse much clearer. That is all.

bija · March 26, 2007

Dear anadi, dandavat, pranams.

Srila Bhaktivinoda's, Sri Krsna Samhita, Chapter Five, verse two.

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. The appearance of the truth of Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

first statement under debate:
1. It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items…(Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2)

Second statement under debate:

2. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."(Sri Krishna Samhita 5.2)

This conclusion is drawn by Bhaktivinode allegedly based on the statement No.1

In the statement No.1 sadhakas should take shelter of (favorable material items) of Maha-maya. – first step of sharanagati

And according to Bhaktivinoda Thakura because of this (For this reason), should the sadhan-siddhas (living entities who have attained the mood of gopis) take shelter of Yoga Maya

This logic is faulty because:

the activities of the sadhakas are not reasons for the activities of sadhan siddhas

Yoga-Maya is not Maha-Maya.

Taking shelter of favorable material items has nothing to do with the worshiping of Yoga-Maya, which is beyond the material . quote by anadi

Firstly anadi, let me say it is very difficult to have conversation with you, when you are convinced in your mind that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is prone to making mistakes (using faulty logic). Your nature seems to be one of deep analysis and breaking down words. You seem to use this tendency to find fault.

You have come to the conclusion that what has been said is faulty and have backed up your logic with this statement...the activities of the sadhakas are not reasons for the activities of sadhan siddhas (quote anadi). Now your satement here in bold is quite correct. But I have not perceived that same error that you are refuteing, in the Samhita itself. I think your flaw is, your nature of being pedantic and always looking for fault. Rather than trying to extract essence through self realization. It appears that your pedantic fault finding relies on logic rather than samadhi (self realization). Please try to see the essence (exercise swanlike faculty) rather than continual fault finding - due to your own pre-conceptions of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. This will be to your great benefit (sorry if my straightforwardness offends you - I actually greatly enjoy your knowledge and skills)

I will attempt to explain what the verse actually means, from my small realization (which of course is simple). Really the process (or progression) of applying oneself by using favorable material items, to coming under the shleter of Yoga-maaya is a very fine distinction and internal realization. Very subtle. And is a natural progression of realizing Krsna in all things. The distinction will be discovered in our consciousness at some point of self-realization.

O Vyasadeva, don’t be afraid of describing the pastimes of the Lord through the medium of this material world, because, in truth, describing the material world is the same as describing Vaikuntha, for they are considered material or spiritual only due to one’s conviction. If you describe this material world in terms of its relationship with the Supreme Lord, then your attachment for Vaikuntha will automatically awaken. This fact is already known to you through your own self realization. quote Sri Krsna Samhita.

Now we can see from this quote, that the distinction between material and spiritual comes from our conviction. We actually find the truth in our consciousness (developed Krsna consciousness). When this awakening has occured, it will be like a bright light in our very being. Perceiving the working of Yoga-maaya will be evident to the self in that, we will begin to perceive of the environment as very nurturing. That infact Yoga-maaya has come to serve us and to help us attain the spirtual world.

Whereas if we are still more influenced by the external maaya, things will be not so nurturing, but we will struggle in our service to Krsna. And find difficulties.

So really what this verse is saying, is that what actually occurs is a 'subjective evolution of consciousness'. You are quite right, the activities of the sadakas are not reasons for the activities of the sadhan-siddhis. This is definately not what the verse is saying. So your interpretation of the verse is false. You have not perceived the essence of the verse, which will become self evident, once we have tasted the nurturing environment (and services of Yoga-maaya).

The verse is actually describing the progression of the soul from lower levels of consciousness, to to its glory (attraction and service to Krsna - being overwhelmed by the sound of krsna's flute).

Taking shelter of favorable material items has nothing to do with the worshiping of Yoga-Maya, which is beyond the material . quote by anadi

All your statements are correct. But your finding fault in the verse is wrong. You have misunderstood the verse. Once our conviction has developed from material (taking shelter of material items - and perceiving this world as material) to spirtual (taking shelter of Yoga-maaya - and perceiving the spiritual nature of reality), we will find in a way a slight humor within ourself (possibly). Something like..."O, I did not see this before, how foolish of me!"

Well someting like that at least is what we may encounter - a sense of surprise. The distinction of our own conviction from material realization to spiritual realization is a very fine occurrence. When this happens in our consciousness, it will be like a split second (from dark to light). We will say...."O I did not see this before...how could I have not realized this."

This is how I have personally seen what the verse is actually saying. Yes ofcourse, finer substance is not dependant on grosser substance. But the other way around. So your points are quite valid. Awakening is a decending process. A pressing down of old convictions. The adhoksaja plane. The Super-Subjective comes to us...pressing down our old convictions.

An excerpt taken from the article (anadi - there are many writings of Srila BR Raksaka Sridhara Dev Goswami describing the 'adhoksaja plane - I have used this article by Muralidhar dasa simply because it was convenient to find on a google search.)

Subjective Evolution of Consciousness

by Muralidhar das.

.....Knowledge and experience come to us from different planes of existence. There is pratyaksa, the sense experience of one's own body and the knowledge that comes from that experience. Then from the experience of others and their recorded knowledge we also are able to understand many things. A second type of knowledge. An example of this is the newspaper. The knowledge learned from reading is not knowledge gained through our direct sense experience, but through the sense experience of others. This is the second class of knowledge. The third level of experience is when there is almost no percepual experience but still some sort of experience is there, as in the case when on waking from sound sleep a person says "I slept very heavily". There is a sort of experience that develops from that region. The yogi and the jnani, when they enter into samadhi, they also have a similar experience to that. An experience of nondifferentiated existence. This sort of experience has been reported and discussed in the Upanisads: an experience that is neither the product of one's own sense experience nor the product of any other person's sense experience. The experience of deep, deep sleep. An experience independent of sense experience.

Ramanujacarya says that there is a more deep experience than this. Knowledge of a fourth plane is possible. Knowledge of the Adhoksaja plane. When God, the super-subjective person, has given some experience within me, I can feel that the higher type of illuminating knowledge has descended in me, in my conscious area, and I can feel something which cannot be experienced in this world. A new type of knowledge I have come in connection with. But when that insight given by God is withdrawn, we have no way to grasp it by our own power or strength. The direct perception of God's existence is adhoksaja knowlege: vaikuntha jnana (knowledge of the transcendental plane of existence). That knowledge can descend in our area of understanding and again that knowledge can withdraw - of its own accord. We cannot but admit the possibility of such transcendental knowledge. It supercedes all our personal efforts and according to its sweet will it comes down to us. Knowledge of the presence of God descends into our area of existence and then withdraws. Very subtle, very fine. Very independent in its nature, is this knowledge of the transcendental plane of existence. But still it is there. It is adhoksaja, transcendental consciousness.

Sri Caitanya, with reference from Bhagavatam, says that there is a fifth plane known as aprakrata. This adhoksaja plane is grand and wonderful, and knowledge of the adhoksaja transcendental plane of existence is not similar to knowledge of this world of our experience. But the aprakrata plane is very similar to this mundane plane of existence. The aprakrata plane is the land of Sri Krishna, which seems similar to this world where we experience sound, vision, touch, etc. In this fifth plane the awe, reverance and power of the fourth plane (adhoksaja) is not conspicuous. The land of Krishna is very similar to this mundane world, yet it is the supreme most quarter......

bija · March 27, 2007

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The introduction was not written for devotees. But for mundane scholars etc.... </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Reply:

Where did Bhaktivinoda said that? quote by anadi

Ok...ofcourse the whole book is written for everyone (including devotees). The introduction is also for devotees, but Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura actually had particular persons in my mind when writing about the subsidiary topics (contained in the introduction). And his purpose for this is explained in the preface.

So my point in taking liberty in my statement (even if not quite correct) was to bring out this point to you.

To encourage you to not get caught up in, apparent incorrect dates and such, to justify your belief that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is prone to false logic. Actually he has humbly implored his readers not to get caught up in such matter, how much more so I would say for the (swan like) devotee who is graced with the ability to be able to seek the essence of things. Please exercise your swanlike faculties. This will be to your great benefit (guaranteed).

It is my prayer to the repected proffessional scholars and devotees to not disregard this Sri Krsna Samhita after seeing the independant conclusions mentioned in the introduction. quote by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

Sri Narada Muni has stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (12.12.52):

"On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, and so on of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bring about a revolution in the impious lives of this worlds misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung, and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest."

Preface to Sri Krsna Samhita

I have compiled Sri Krsna Samhita after carefully studying the purports of the vedic literature. The truths concerning Vaisnava philosophy are the topmost substance of the Arayan dharma. I have especially discussed this in this book. Everyone - including the worshippers of Durga, Surya, Ganesa, Siva, and Visnu - should accept the contents of this book according to one's respective qualification. In this book one wil also find the topmost conlusion in brahma jnana, impersonal knowledge of the Absolute Truth, and the principle purport of the religious scriptures is also discussed. Therefore one can find herein dicussion on all branches and sub branches of Aryan Dharma.

In the introduction of this book one will find the historical and geographical considerations of all religious truths. And in the conclusion we have discussed these truths in modern terminology.

As soon as this books is published, many people will attain a copy. But I do not feel that many respected readers will scrutinizingly study it. Sri Gita Govinda, compiled by Jayadeva Goswami, is supposed to be studied only by qualified persons, because one finds in that book verses such as: yadi hare smarane sarasam manah yadi vilasa kalasu kutuhalam ity adi - "O devotees, if your mind becomes attached to remembering the characteristics of the Lord, and if your mind becomes curious to understand the enchanting rasa lila pastimes of the Lord...." Still, ordinary literary scholars and panditas as well as people who are attached to love affairs do not stop reading such books. It is therefore necessary to speak a few words in this regard.

With folded hands I request the old-fashioned readers to understand that if some conclusion is found herein that is contrary to their preconceptions, it was written with particular persons in mind. Whatever is written about religious codes, however, should be accepted by all. The conclusions regarding subsidiary topics will yield the result of purifying some particular persons knowledge. There is no profit or loss for one who believes or disbelieves in the different subject matters described in the introduction regarding historical incidents and time according to sastric reason and argument. History and knowledge of time is part of Artha shastra, economic scriptures. If one considers history and time according to reason and argument, there will be great benefit for India. By this, one can hope to make gradual advancement on the path towards the ultimate goal of life. If reason and argument is combined with ancient beliefs, then all the accumulated moss of misconceptions will be destroyed, and in due course of time the odor of infamy will be eradicated from the people of India; then their knowledge will regain its health. It is my prayer to the repected proffessional scholars and devotees to not disregard this Sri Krsna Samhita after seeing the independant conclusions mentioned in the introduction. If for no other reason they will be forced to repect this book because of Krsna's names, qualities, and pastimes are described herein. Sri Narada Muni has stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (12.12.52):

"On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, and so on of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bring about a revolution in the impious lives of this worlds misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung, and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest."

My request to the modern readers is that they should not become adverse to this book just by hearing its name and the Lord's Vraj pastimes contained therein. The more one reads this book with faith, the more one will realize the Absolute Truth. In my opinion, the reader will get better results by first studying the introduction, then the Conclusion, and finally the main book......

Servant of the servants of the Lord,

Akincana Sri Kedaranatha Datta (Bhaktivinoda).

bija · March 27, 2007

Dear Anadi Prabhu, Dandavat pranams.

Thank you for the conversation. I will have to leave it at this point. We could go on endlessly in this subject. To be honest I am not so interested in defending Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's grasp on siddhanta. It is self evident to me that he is a an elevated devotee of the highest order.

Infact I see no great benefit for my self or others, in the fault-finding and defending approaches as in this discussion. It serves no benefit for any listener.

My conviction is that we should be swanlike and extract essence wherever it is found. And be like the bumble-bee gracing each flower and extracting its nectar.

Sri Narada Muni has stated in the Srimad Bhagavatam (12.12.52):

"On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, and so on of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bring about a revolution in the impious lives of this worlds misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung, and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest."

Srimad Bhagavatam: "As a bee takes honey from many different flowers, so a wise man takes the truth from many different great and small books"

Such an approach would be much more beneficial for oneself and the broader community.

So on that note....thank you for your time....and please forgive any offences I may have committed.

peace to you,

y.s. bija.

anadi · March 27, 2007

Dear wonderful bija, my Dandavat to you,

You wrote:

Firstly anadi, let me say it is very difficult to have conversation with you, when you are convinced in your mind that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is prone to making mistakes (using faulty logic).

I not need the be convinced, I have to prove it;

and ... I did it, showing the inconsistency present in those quotations.

Your nature seems to be one of deep analysis and breaking down words. You seem to use this tendency to find fault. Rather than trying to extract essence through self realization.It appears that your pedantic fault finding relies on logic rather than samadhi (self realization).

Reply:

Words are very important in conveying information, and logic based on shastra is also very important. By this Krishna gives buddhi

– discrimination power, by which one extracts the essence.

Pedantic means to be interested more in that which refers to form but not to the content.

What I care about, is the accuracy of the content, because people follow all kinds of blurred concepts, which in the beginning does not even need to be so accurate, when they convey some general knowledge on a subject. But if one wants to go deep into the matter, the accuracy is of utmost importance.

When one discusses the philosophical principles regarding for example sadhana bhakti one should rely on the original scriptures not on second rate writings, which are commentaries not realization based on samadhi as presented by some gurus, and may even distort the original meaning. I previously gave as evidence the own words of Bhaktivinoda regarding this illusion of reading his commentaries on the shastra – which ...should have been divine transmissions from the Absolut plane in the state of samadhi, as some gurus say about the books of Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

You have come to the conclusion that what has been said is faulty and have backed up your logic with this statement...the activities of the sadhakas are not reasons for the activities of sadhan siddhas (quote anadi). Now your satement here in bold is quite correct. But I have not perceived that same error that you are refuteing, in the Samhita itself.

This was not under discussion. I personally still like very much this Book of Bhaktivinoda, and the book will certainly help people on the way of understanding Gaudiya Bhakti, but still there are books which certainly are more accurate... and sweet.

anadi · March 27, 2007

Dear bija, dandavats

you wrote:

I will attempt to explain what the verse actually means, from my small realization (which of course is simple). Really the process (or progression) of applying oneself by using favorable material items, to coming under the shleter of Yoga-maaya is a very fine distinction and internal realization. Very subtle. And is a natural progression of realizing Krsna in all things. The distinction will be discovered in our consciousness at some point of self-realization.

Dear bija this is quite a realization of the Krishna Samhita 5.2…sorry...

you quoted:

O Vyasadeva, don’t be afraid of describing the pastimes of the Lord through the medium of this material world, because, in truth, describing the material world is the same as describing Vaikuntha, for they are considered material or spiritual only due to one’s conviction. If you describe this material world in terms of its relationship with the Supreme Lord, then your attachment for Vaikuntha will automatically awaken. This fact is already known to you through your own self realization. quote Sri Krsna Samhita.

Reply:

If you take the Bhagavatam you will see that Naranda doesn’t say these things.

1. Describing the material world is not the same as describing Vakuntha, even if we make it in terms of its relationship with the Supreme Lord. The material world is another type of play-ground for the Lord, than Vaikuntha. He comes in the material world … even with his own Vaikuntha abode and his own parikars.

2. They are not considered material or spiritual because of our conviction. The material world is different from the spiritual one not because of our conviction, but independent of it. The spiritual world is never created, and its substance is the spiritual love.

The material world is a transformation of the spiritual energy, through the will of the Lord. The material world is created and destroyed and its substance is the false identification, which takes the form of the three gunas (material modes of nature). Etc… you know all that…

You contiunued:

Now we can see from this quote, that the distinction between material and spiritual comes from our conviction. We actually find the truth in our consciousness (developed krsna consciousness)

Dear Bija this is not true, see the above evidence.

and added

Perceiving the working of Yoga-maaya will be evident to the self in that, we will begin to perceive of the environment as very nurturing. That in fact Yoga-maaya has come to serve us and to help us attain the spirtual world.

Yoga-maya acts on the level of the soul on the cit level, the level of consciousness, and consciousness means attachment, by which a sadhaka attains Krishna consciousness - attachment for Krishna, not for maya (maha-maya).

The true is that we get out of maya (maha-maya)

We get out of maya when we cut asunder the knot which ties us to it, the very substance of the material world – the false identification, by which the sense of enjoyment of the illusory potency disappears. And we do it through yoga, liking us to the Lord, through the internal potency Yoga-maya.

Bhakti-yoga emphasizes the linking through the Hladini potency of the Yoga-maya, whereas other types of linking may emphasize the spiritual existence potency – sat or the spiritual knowledge potency – cit.

The material environment might be very nurturing, when is doveteiled to remember Radha-Krishna, but:

1. For a sadhana-bhakta the material environament is a continous danger of enticement (I have seen sanyasis in Gaudya Math - not only from the west, who gave descriptions of Radha Katha with tears in their eyes and than fall in love with the girlfriend of my friend).

2. For a siddha, the pain of separtation when comming out of samadhi is so excruciating that with every moment of his life he wants to deliver his body, what to say of this world being for him... Vraja (Vaikuntha). See Vilapa Kusumanjali.

3. And on the level in between (of bhava bhaktas), one goes deep into bhajan and don’t have any attraction for the material world anymore, we get on the level of manasic seva which is much more powerful than the external one, we are like in Vraja, not that this material world is Vaikuntha.

In this connection here it is an excerpt from the life of siddha Jagadisha Dasa Babaji of Kaliya-daha:

Baba’s life was simple and austere. He lived on madhu-kari (begging eatables from the inhabitants of Vrindavan) and did not take salt. Bhagavan das babaji ordinarily advised his disciples to do only Harinama-japa, but he considered Jagadish das to be above the ordinary in devotion. Therefore he initiated him in Raganuga-bhajan. Practicing bhajana according to the raganuga sadhana bhakti, he used to be mostly absorbed in deep meditation. Sometimes he would be so absorbed that he would be unaware even of the food kept befor him by his disciple for eating and it would remain untouched till he regainded outer consciousness. Sometimes people would come to see him, perform dandavat and sit down before him but he would not know about their arrival until the absorption was over and someone told him about it. He would then feel very uncomfortable and think that he had commited an aparadha (offence) against the visitors. To guard himself against the aparadha, thereafter, when he sat outside his cottage; he put shalagrama shila (a round black stone found in river Gandaki and worshipped by devotees as a form of Vishnu) in front of him so that the dandavat (obeissances) might be to shalagrama, not to him.

March 27, 2007

In Srimad Bhagavat Purana 1.2.13

Sūta Gosvāmī uvaca:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

sv-anuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead.

Activities that bring pleasure to Sri Hari must not be abandoned; engaging in false [monkey-like] renunciation, abandoning the responsible role we have within society, is condemned by Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita.

It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Prescribed duties, according to one's nature, are never affected by sinful reactions

Gita, 18.47

The gita explains that all living beings have distinctive natural abilities to work in different ways within society.

42. Serenity, self-restraint, austerity, purity, forgiveness and also uprightness, knowledge, realisation and belief in God are the duties of the Brahmanas, born of (their own) nature.

43. Prowess, splendour, firmness, dexterity and also not fleeing from battle, generosity and lordliness are the duties of Kshatriyas, born of (their own) nature.

44. Agriculture, cattle-rearing and trade are the duties of the Vaishya (merchant class), born of (their own) nature; and action consisting of service is the duty of the Sudra (servant class), born of (their own) nature.

Gita, chapter 18

According to one's nature, a person is judged to be of a particular varna.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.20.9

tāvat karmāṇi kurvīta na nirvidyeta yāvatā

mat-kathā-śravaṇādau vā śraddhā yāvan na jāyate

One should continue performing daily and periodic varnasrama activities until one actually becomes detached from material sense gratification and develope faith for hearing and chanting about Krishna.

The sahajiyas imagine that they have reached the stage of life where they can give up doing ethical social duties as prescribed for farmers, warriors and so forth, and they put on the robes of a babaji simply for the purpose of being able to gather food and goods by begging. But this type of renunciation is specifically condemned by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in the Chaitanya Caritamrta, in the section where Mahaprabhu advises Raghunath das Goswami about how a renunciate should act and behave.

Only great souls who have really attained inner detachment should wear the robes of a renunciate. Most of the so-called babajis in Vraja would be better off engaging in honest labouring work and Deity worship than to be engaged in imitative raganuga bhakti. The real Brajabasis living at Govardhana and nearby places have utter disgust for most of the so-called babajis that are living in Radha kunda. It is a fact that the traditional families of farmers and merchants at Govardhana think these babajis are scoundrels since the babajis are mostly lazy bengali fellows who have chosen to live in Vraja as beggars and parasites.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur ordered Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur to institute the system of daivi varnashram dharma within the society of India and to overthrow the false doctrine that a person is only a brahmin if they are born in the family of brahmins, a kshatriya if born in the family of kshatriyas.

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.33.6

yan-nāmadheya-śravaṇānukīrtanād

yat-prahvaṇād yat-smaraṇād api kvacit

śvādo 'pi sadyaḥ savanāya kalpate

kutaḥ punas te bhagavan nu darśanāt

To say nothing of the spiritual advancement of persons who see the Supreme Person face to face, even a person born in a family of dog-eaters immediately becomes eligible to perform Vedic fire sacrifices if he once utters the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or chants about Him, hears about His pastimes, offers Him obeisances or even remembers Him.

Devotees who are beginners, who have not reached the stage where they can chant the suddha-nama (pure name of Krishna) are nevertheless able to perform fire sacrifices and yajnas, acting in the role of brahmins within society, if they sincerly offer obeisances to the Lord (as in the verse above).

It is a fact of life that many of the royal families of India arose from non-Aryan families (such as the Jats). Moreover, both Ramanuja (10th century) and Parasurama (in the ancient period) transformed aboriginal people in South India into brahmins. Furthermore, the brahma-gayatri mantra itself, the initiation mantra for brahmin boys, was given to brahmins by the kshatriya sage Visvamitra. Caste is not determined by birth alone. The presumption that western born people cannot be considered anything but "untouchables" is based on ignorance.

sammatam bhakti-vijnanam bhakty-angatvam na karmanam

Bhaktirasamrtrasindhu 1.2.246

TRANSLATION:

The consensus of those knowledgeable of bhakti is that karma (varnasrama duties) is not an anga of bhakti.

Varnasrama is a social organization system designed by Visnu for the welfare of humankind. In itself, it is not bhakti. But by engaging in pious varnasram activites a person pleases Visnu, helps others, and brings goodness into the world.

anadi · March 27, 2007

Dear Murali d. dandavat,

You quoted SB1.2.13 as an evidence that one should follow varna-ashram dharma:

<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">In Srimad Bhagavat Purana 1.2.13

Sūta Gosvāmī uvaca:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

sv-anuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

But Sri Caitanya, the same Sri Krishna, rejected entirely this idea as being external to bhakti.

You continued:

Activities that bring pleasure to Sri Hari must not be abandoned; engaging in false [monkey-like] renunciation, abandoning the responsible role we have within society, is condemned by Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita.

Reply:

1. Bhakti activities are much more pleasureble for Krishna that discharging one’s duties in varnashram, which not even is related to yoga, and amongst those who are engaged in yoga, the most dear to Sri Krishna is the one do hari bhajan – bhakti activity.

2. Not perfoming one’s duties in varnashram dharma is not false renunciation, maybe your guru says so, but Sri Krishna doesn’t, please see below:

As you brought this evidence

<TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0cm; mso-padding-alt: 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt 4.5pt" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 18pt; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 18pt; BACKGROUND: #e0e0e0; PADDING-BOTTOM: 4.5pt; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 4.5pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid #666666 .75pt">It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Prescribed duties, according to one's nature, are never affected by sinful reactionsGita, 18.47

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

1. this quotation does not uphold your statements.

2. Bhakti is outside varnashram dharma and in this connection Sri Krishna says that if you want to come to bhakti, you should not fear about sinful reactions, that might come because renouncing varnashram dharma, as He says later:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

Renounce any kind of duties pertaining this world - sarva-dharmān parityajya,

Take Me alone as your shelter - mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

Don’t worry - mā śucaḥ

I will deliver you - ahaḿ tvāḿ mokṣayiṣyāmi

from all sinful reactions (to your deeds) - sarva-pāpebhyo

Than you gave this very inaccurate translation to Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.20.9

tāvat karmāṇi kurvīta na nirvidyeta yāvatā

mat-kathā-śravaṇādau vā śraddhā yāvan na jāyate

One should continue performing daily and periodic varnasrama activities until one actually becomes detached from material sense gratification and develope faith for hearing and chanting about Krishna.

This is not said in the verse, but:

"As long as yāvat faith śraddhā is not awaken najāyateorvā as long as yāvatāone is not engaged nanirvidyeta in hearing in the beginning śravaṇādau about my pastimes mat-kathā one should execute kurvita activities according varna-ashram dharma karmāṇi."

The verse doesn’t say that until one actually becomes detached from material sense gratification one should perform daily and periodic varnasrama activities, but until one is engaged in preliminary activities of bhakti like in the beginning the hearing about the pastimes of the Lord is most important, or one had not attain the faith (of association with the carriers of bhakti) one should do karma (activities according varnaashram dharma)

Bhagavan, Sri Krishna explains the meaning of karma :

karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ

akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17)

Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound.

1.Vikarma - acting against the prescribed duty , leads to a miserable destiny and destin-ation.

2. Akarma, not acting according the prescribed duty in varna-ashrama, can be

- akarma – rejecting varna-ashrama dharma due to ignorance, which is vikarma.

- akarma - rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in activities for the attainment of mukti (salvation - liberation from the bondage of this illusory material energy - maya)

- akarma rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in devotional activities (bhakti) - for the attainment of divine love prema

3. Karma, is the action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order, which leads to the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord Hari.

karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed / akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ

sa buddhimān manuṣyeṣu / sa yuktaḥ kṛtsna-karma-kṛt (Bhagavat-gita 4.18 )

"That person endowed with discrimination power (intelligence) buddhimAn, sees inaction in karma and action in akarma.

That person is linked (with the Lord/ spiritual world), although she acts (in this world)."

The meaning is that for a transcendentaly situated person, situated beyond the modes of material nature, karma (action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order) is not (the real) action, in the sense that karma is not related to the eternal nature of the soul: shuddha bhakti – loving service to The All Attractive,

and such a person sees akarma – not following the prescribed duties of varNa-asharam system, which are due to the false indentification of the soul with temporary denominations of the material body, as real activity, when it is related to the real identity of the soul – a loving servant, friend, parent, or erotic lover of the Lord- which encompasses the nitya dharma – the real nature

suchandra · March 27, 2007

Dear Murali d. dandavat,

You quoted SB1.2.13 as an evidence that one should follow varna-ashram dharma:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">In Srimad Bhagavat Purana 1.2.13

Sūta Gosvāmī uvaca:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

sv-anuṣṭhitasya dharmasya saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam

O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

But Sri Caitanya, the same Sri Krishna, rejected entirely this idea as being external to bhakti.

You continued:

Activities that bring pleasure to Sri Hari must not be abandoned; engaging in false [monkey-like] renunciation, abandoning the responsible role we have within society, is condemned by Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita.

Reply:

1. Bhakti activities are much more pleasureble for Krishna that discharging one’s duties in varnashram, which not even is related to yoga, and amongst those who are engaged in yoga, the most dear to Sri Krishna is the one do hari bhajan – bhakti activity.

2. Not perfoming one’s duties in varnashram dharma is not false renunciation, maybe your guru says so, but Sri Krishna doesn’t, please see below:

As you brought this evidence

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">It is better to engage in one's own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another's occupation and perform it perfectly. Prescribed duties, according to one's nature, are never affected by sinful reactionsGita, 18.47

</td></tr></tbody></table>

1. this quotation does not uphold your statements.

2. Bhakti is outside varnashram dharma and in this connection Sri Krishna says that if you want to come to bhakti, you should not fear about sinful reactions, that might come because renouncing varnashram dharma, as He says later:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

Renounce any kind of duties pertaining this world - sarva-dharmān parityajya,

Take Me alone as your shelter - mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

Don’t worry - mā śucaḥ

I will deliver you - ahaḿ tvāḿ mokṣayiṣyāmi

from all sinful reactions (to your deeds) - sarva-pāpebhyo

Than you gave this very inaccurate translation to Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.20.9

tāvat karmāṇi kurvīta na nirvidyeta yāvatā

mat-kathā-śravaṇādau vā śraddhā yāvan na jāyate

One should continue performing daily and periodic varnasrama activities until one actually becomes detached from material sense gratification and develope faith for hearing and chanting about Krishna.

This is not said in the verse, but:

"As long as yāvat faith śraddhā is not awaken najāyateorvā as long as yāvatāone is not engaged nanirvidyeta in hearing in the beginning śravaṇādau about my pastimes mat-kathā one should execute kurvita activities according varna-ashram dharma karmāṇi."

The verse doesn’t say that until one actually becomes detached from material sense gratification one should perform daily and periodic varnasrama activities, but until one is engaged in preliminary activities of bhakti like in the beginning the hearing about the pastimes of the Lord is most important, or one had not attain the faith (of association with the carriers of bhakti) one should do karma (activities according varnaashram dharma)

Bhagavan, Sri Krishna explains the meaning of karma :

karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ

akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17)

Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound.

1.Vikarma - acting against the prescribed duty , leads to a miserable destiny and destin-ation.

2. Akarma, not acting according the prescribed duty in varna-ashrama, can be

- akarma – rejecting varna-ashrama dharma due to ignorance, which is vikarma.

- akarma - rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in activities for the attainment of mukti (salvation - liberation from the bondage of this illusory material energy - maya)

- akarma rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in devotional activities (bhakti) - for the attainment of divine love prema

3. Karma, is the action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order, which leads to the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord Hari.

karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed / akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ

sa buddhimān manuṣyeṣu / sa yuktaḥ kṛtsna-karma-kṛt (Bhagavat-gita 4.18 )

"That person endowed with discrimination power (intelligence) buddhimAn, sees inaction in karma and action in akarma.

That person is linked (with the Lord/ spiritual world), although she acts (in this world)."

The meaning is that for a transcendentaly situated person, situated beyond the modes of material nature, karma (action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order) is not (the real) action, in the sense that karma is not related to the eternal nature of the soul: shuddha bhakti – loving service to The All Attractive,

and such a person sees akarma – not following the prescribed duties of varNa-asharam system, which are due to the false indentification of the soul with temporary denominations of the material body, as real activity, when it is related to the real identity of the soul – a loving servant, friend, parent, or erotic lover of the Lord- which encompasses the nitya dharma – the real nature

Anadi, since you clearly reject Srila Prabhupada's teachings on DVD what we have today to consider as legitimate and normal practice of many pre-77 Prabhupada disciples it would be necessary to start your own movement and also make it public that it is a new movement.

anadi · March 27, 2007

Anadi, since you clearly reject Srila Prabhupada's teachings on DVD what we have today to consider as legitimate and normal practice of many pre-77 Prabhupada disciples it would be necessary to start your own movement and also make it public that it is a new movement.

Dear Sucandra, dandavats

I reject the practicing and proliferation of dvd not because is an invention of “Prabhupada” going back to some ideas of the Gaudiya Mat founder , but because this is against bhakti, as taught in the original Gaudiya Vaishnavism

Please remember the significance of the second shloka of Upadeshamrita from Rupa Gosvami:<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca<u1:p></u1:p> prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

<u1:p></u1:p>jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca<u1:p></u1:p> SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In diesem Vers Rupa Gosvami describes six enemies of bhakti, or as he says six items - shadbhir which destroy vinasyati the divine devotional service bhakti:

<u1:p></u1:p>-atyAhAraH accumulating more than necessary for keeping body and soul together (as in the case of varnashram dharma) destroys bhakti

<u1:p></u1:p>-prayas - undergoing endeavors, others than for attaining bhava - the goal of sadhana bhakti (like varnashrama dharma, which according “prabhupada” a sadhaka should try to implement in the world)- destroys bhakti

<u1:p></u1:p>-prajalpa – speaking of something else than about bhakti (like about varnashram dharma and the politics involved in it)– destroys bhakti

<u1:p></u1:p>-niyamAgrahaH – not following the rules of sadhana bhakti (inventing new rules –like the invention of endeavoring for the implementation of DVD, ...against the Teachings of Lord Caitanya, or doing only for the rules’ sake ) –destroys bhakti

<u1:p></u1:p>-jana-saGgaz – associating with those that follow something else than bhakti, (like those engaged in varnashram dharma)–destroys bhakti

<u1:p></u1:p>-laulyamM- greed for something else than bhakti, (like greed for the implementation of the new coined dvd)–destroys bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Bhakti is Absolute, that means Bhakti is its own support. It does need no support from anything …like … varnashram dharma.<u1:p></u1:p>

Rupa Gosvami says that one’s endeavors for something else than bhakti, destroys the delicate plant of bhakti.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Narada Muni condemns Vyasadeva because he taught Varnashrama dharma in the Vedas. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>jugupsitam dharma-krite 'nusasatah

<u1:p></u1:p>svabhava-raktasya mahan vyatikramah

<u1:p></u1:p>yad-vakyato dharma ititarah sthito

<u1:p></u1:p>na manyate tasya nivaranam janah (S.B. 1.5.15) <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>The conditioned people itarah use varanshram dharma dharma-krite for their natural prepensity to enjoy (the material objects of the senses)-svabhava-raktasya, which is, to be condemned jugupsitam and unreasonable vyatikramah.<u1:p></u1:p>

Thus iti fixed sthitah under those instructions yat-vakyatah (of varnashrama dharma, that Vyasadeva compiled) the people janah will not think na manyate of that tasya; renunciation nivaranam and to follow those true instructions anu-sa-satah -of the great dharma mahan dharmah (bhakti dharma).<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Accordingly they will chant thinking of sense enjoyment, and maha mantra which is like cintamani will fulfill those desires (life time after life time) by watering the seeds of those desires, not the seed of bhakti, whose delicate plant is suffocated by the plants of material desires.<u1:p></u1:p>

Maha Mantra is like a fertilizer that follows the mind and fertilize those plants where the mind goes.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>So, one should purify the mind ...but Varnashram dharma is the opposite of ceto darpana marjanam.

One should follow sadhana bhakti as deliniated by Rupa Gosvami and his followers.

Beggar · March 27, 2007

Anadi, Dandavats. Everything you say about bhakti is true but you are not considering that that Srila B.V. Prabhupada and now other Gaudiya Math derived sadhus have come to the Western world to also distribute preliminary sukrti for this bhakti. The current situation is now that the second generation, those born of Prabhupada's followers, their friends and new converts and many of the first generation have found a niche in the mainstream society and only engage in Krsna Conscious activites on a very part-time basis. The only regulative principle that most follow is no meat or fish (except for the Deer Hunters!) So so-called followers of the Gaudiya path in today's society are getting some sukrti but then going out and getting a heavy dose of dukrti. This is why Prabhupada dreamed and contemplated a regulated life of DVD for those on the pre-bhakti path. For whatever reason it was not to be. Now thirty years later, even the basis for such a society has been shattered, consequently it is really a mute point. The only issue we are really left with (except for delusional kings who hunt deer) is tridandi sannyasa vs. babaji vesa which goes back to the days of Sarsawati Thakur and Lalita Prasada. In this way you tell that Saraswati Thakur was a deviator because he instituted tradandi sannyasa and renounced babaji vesa. And we will tell you that he is a great reformer and great perfector of phlagu vairagya, using everything in Krsna's service.

suchandra · March 27, 2007

Dear Sucandra, dandavats

I reject the practicing and proliferation of dvd not because is an invention of “Prabhupada” going back to some ideas of the Gaudiya Mat founder , but because this is against bhakti, as taught in the original Gaudiya Vaishnavism<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Anadi, dandavats, thing is that lets say you become a grhastha Vaishnava and your children also eventually want to get married. Is it ok for you that all those grhastha Vaishnavas go for work to the karmis in order to pay the bills and maintain their families? But this is what you're teaching. This is of course demoniac to tell young devotees listen in our movement you can be only monks and if you want to have family this is not possible because family require money and where should this come?

Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

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