Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[Guest guest]

 

Yes, my timeline was a bit off, sorry. I was referring to the era shortly after Ramesvara became a zonal acarya. Cookie tables were popular then, being that bringing in laxmi was high priority. Beggar seems to remember the sequence of events better than me, so I will defer to him.

 

"So unless you were there please too refrain from comment and let us get back to DVD. Please!"

 

Well, I was there, but didn't arrive until '79. I find it really really hard to believe that Gopa prabhu would try to "break your faith" or anyone's faith in Srila Prabhupada. He is a Prabhupada man through and through. But yes, enough of this, let's back on topic and discuss Varnashrama without all the personal attacks and accusations.

 

 

I absolutly agree.

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[bija]

http://bvml.org/books/fonts/convertor.html

 

This is a link to an online fonts convertor. To use...click 'remove balarama'. Copy and paste text into the convertor...then click convert button. It should work if you copy and paste directly from the folio views.

 

Here is an example from your post after conversion:

 

 

 

çauryaà tejo dhåtir däkñyaà

yuddhe cäpy apaläyanam

dänam éçvara-bhävaç ca

kñätraà karma svabhäva-jam

çauryam—heroism; tejaù—power; dhåtiù—determination; däkñyam—resourcefulness; yuddhe—in battle; ca—and; api—also; apaläyanam—not fleeing; dänam—generosity; éçvara—leadership; bhävaù—nature; ca—and kñätram—kñatriya; karma—duty; svabhäva-jam—born of his own nature.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kñatriyas.

 

sauryam tejo dhritir dakshyam

yuddhe capy apalayanam

danam isvara-bhavas ca

kshatram karma svabhava-jam

sauryam—heroism; tejah—power; dhritih—determination; dakshyam—resourcefulness; yuddhe—in battle; ca—and; api—also; apalayanam—not fleeing; danam—generosity; isvara—leadership; bhavah—nature; ca—and kshatram—kshatriya; karma—duty; svabhava-jam—born of his own nature.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the kshatriyas.

 

I hope this link is useful to you.

[brajeshwara das]

DVD seems so natural to me that some people can easily be identified in thier particular roles and I could never see them doing otherwise. For instance I'm pretty sure I'm a ksatriya even though my false ego always wants to be a brahman. I know I'm no vaisha as I will give everything away for free, I just can't do business. I always end up in administrative roles even when I fight it. I don't see another way than to try and follow it, but am a bit afraid of how it could be implemented wrongly. It could be abused.

[anadi]

I strongly doubt that Sri Caitanya preached that one should folow varna-ashram dharma in the form of ? dvd ?

 

Srila Vishvanata Cakravarti Thakura, a follower of the teaching Lord Caitanya's, born in the year 1586 Shakabda era (about 180 years after Lord Caitanya) within the Nadia district of West Bengal in a place called Prasiddha Deva Gram, also renounced, soon after his arranged marriage, his wife and home and went to live in Vrindavan. (tishtan vraje! - Nectar of Instructions verse 8 - Rupa Gosvamin)

 

He took up his residence in the bhajan kutir of Shri Krishna Das Kaviraja Goswami, on the banks of the Radha-kunda, where lived a disciple of Krishna das Kaviraja whose name was Mukunda das. There, Vishvanatha Cakravarti made a careful study of the literatures of the empowered representatives of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Goswamis of Vrindavan. In that holy place he later wrote many commentaries on the books of the Goswamis.

In one of his famous verses Srila Vishvanata Cakravarti Thakura says:

 

 

ArAdyo bhagavAn vrajeza-tanayas tad dhAma vRndAvanam

ramya kAcid upAsanA vraja-vadhU-vargeNa ya kalpitA

zrImad bhAgavataM pramANam amalaM premA pumArtho mahAn

ZrI caitanya mahAprabhor matam idaM tatrAdhara naH paraH

 

The worshipable object – aradya (is that) Supreme Lord – bhagavan

born from the body of – tanayas the Lord of Braja – Vraja-ISa (referece to Nanda Maharaja and of course mother Yazoda, whose son is that “naravata lila kRSNa” – Krishna of “human like” pastimes, or madhur Krishna – the sweetest Krishna, not the Mathura-natha Krishna - “Krishna of Majesty and opulence” - who appeared in the mind of Vasudeva and was transferred in the womb of Devaki, but that Krishna that was really born from the body of mother Yazoda) and

His holly abode Vrindavan is in the same way worshipable - tad dhama vrndavanam .

 

Of any kind – kacit of worship – upasana , the most pleasing (for the Lord) – ramya

is the path shown - vargena ya kalpita by the married women of vraja (the gopis) – vraja vadhu

 

(who renounced even the religious principles of dharma, just to please Krishna, a path which is not possible for Sri Laxmi) .

Srimad Bhagavatam is the pure, spotless - amalam evidence - pramanam and premA – the divine ecstatic love (of Krishna)

is the highest goal of humankind - pumartho mahan (beyond karma, artha, kama and moksha).

These (concisely) comprise the opinion (the teachings) – matam idam of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and

we don’t have attachment – nah adhara for any other (type of worship oder teaching)- tatra paraha .

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Prabhus,

 

Please read this and let us go beyond this weak arguement of 'not for us' We are Srila Prabhupada's, he is our guru. The direction is plain to see. Also it is easy to see 'who' refuses to act on behalf of Prabhupada's instructions.

 

Another important concideration in our dealings with each other. Those that have taken leadership have cheated by not emulating Srila Prabhupada. Is this what we want? No of course not, then read and have the right idea of DVD for us, devotees, in ISKCON, NOW. 4 varnas 4 asramas.

 

Please read the following.

 

 

 

 

 

Room conversation February 14 1977, Sri Dhama Mayapura

 

Satsvarüpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rämänanda Räya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihä bähya. Caitanya Mahäprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

 

Satsvarüpa: But don’t we do that also?

 

Prabhupäda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kåñëa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahäprabhu personally took sannyäsa. He rejected completely material. Niñkiïcana. But we are not going to be niñkiïcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gétä. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahäprabhu rejected everything, ihä bähya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bähya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahäprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

 

Satsvarüpa: Varëäçrama is not required.

 

Prabhupäda: Not required. Caitanya Mahäprabhu denied, “I am not brähmaëa, I am not kñatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gétä, the cätur-varëyaà mayä såñöam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Kåñëa..., preaching Kåñëa consciousness. It must be done.

Hari-çauri: But in Caitanya Mahäprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

 

Prabhupäda: That is not possible for ordinary man.

Hari-çauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

 

Prabhupäda: Hm?

 

Hari-çauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

 

Prabhupäda: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?

 

Satsvarüpa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varëäçrama. That’s the easiest.

 

Prabhupäda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahäprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahäprabhu.

 

Satsvarüpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasäda...

 

Prabhupäda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varëäçrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-çauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varëäçrama is not possible.

 

Prabhupäda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

Hari-çauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varëäçrama and like that.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridäsa Öhäkura to chant, it is not possible.

 

Satsvarüpa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Thäkaha äpanära käje, Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura. Äpanära käja ki. Caitanya Mahäprabhu recommended, sthäne sthitaù. And if they do not remain in the sthäna, then the sahajiyä’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyäs also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyäsa but he was given sannyäsa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varëäçrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varëäçrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

Satsvarüpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Yes. Brähmaëa, kñatriyas. There must be regular education.

 

 

 

(CB-R)

There must be regular education and division of asrama and varna as an organizantion of/in devotee communities. Let this conversation satisfy the question of implimentation amoung devotees. We can go immediately to the next step of discussion about implimenting and what YOU will do, to make something manifest as Guru has ordered. Please the question of whether or not we should do this DVD is answered. If any Gaudiya Guru says different, then they have deviated, you need new siksa.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[brajeshwara das]

GuestCBhakti: Please, please withold from assuming that we all are following Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's instructions directly, and if not we are deviating. He is a tree of the Gaudiya Math, but my particular line is from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, and I'm not aware of specific instructions to implement varnashramdharma in our Math. If so then I will happily follow as I feel naturally there are these tendencies. But please be clear and respectful. We are not in the parampara of Srila Swami Maharaj. We are not deviating and for you to say so is an offense to the exalted vaisnavas of SCSMath.

[Guest guest]

 

GuestCBhakti: Please, please withold from assuming that we all are following Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada's instructions directly, and if not we are deviating. He is a tree of the Gaudiya Math, but my particular line is from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, and I'm not aware of specific instructions to implement varnashramdharma in our Math. If so then I will happily follow as I feel naturally there are these tendencies. But please be clear and respectful. We are not in the parampara of Srila Swami Maharaj. We are not deviating and for you to say so is an offense to the exalted vaisnavas of SCSMath.

 

 

 

 

If you are offended please excuse me. But Srila Prabhupada has said in no uncertain terms;

 

 

SB.5.1.24 purport

 

"Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krishna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society."

 

 

I hope we can move on from here with your blessing and support as you have said you would give if proven wrong.

 

CB-R

[Beggar]

 

... Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society."

 

CB-R

...Daiva-varnasrama is also the system of brahmacari, grhasta, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur also created a society of Vaisnava brahmanas and Srila B.V. Prabhupada attempted this within ISKCON. Srila B.V. Prabhupada wanted to incorportate hundreds of thousand if not millions of people within his society. This is where it seems to me organizing those masses as mostly ksatriyas, vaishas and sudras would be instituted. Now ISKCON has more or less lost this vision and perhaps possibiltiy, at least for now, especially in the West. ISKCON in India is much larger, but the extended membership there is already familiar with varnasrama dharma. Of course C. B. is in Alachua and there's a community which really could us some DVD. But how to do? Anyway DVD is external:

The Lord has said that the varṇāśrama-dharma is not properly executed in this Age of Kali; therefore He ordered Rāmānanda Rāya to go further into the matter. Rāmānanda replied with this verse from the Bhagavad-gītā (9.27), which instructs that while remaining in the system of varṇāśrama-dharma one may offer the results of his activities to Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa in loving service. Naturally Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was asking Rāmānanda Rāya about the execution of devotional service. Rāmānanda Rāya first enunciated the principle of varṇāśrama-dharma in consideration of materialistic people. However, this conception is not transcendental. As long as one is in the material world, he must follow the principles of varṇāśrama-dharma, but devotional service is transcendental. The system of varṇāśrama-dharma refers to the three modes of material nature, but transcendental devotional service is on the absolute platform.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu belongs to the spiritual world, and His methods for propagating the sańkīrtana movement are also imported from the spiritual world. Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura has sung: golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-sańkīrtana, rati na janmila kene tāya. This states that the sańkīrtana movement has nothing to do with this material world. It is imported from the spiritual world, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura laments that mundane people do not take this sańkīrtana movement seriously. Considering the position of devotional service and the sańkīrtana movement, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu deemed the system of varṇāśrama-dharma to be material, although it aims at elevation to the spiritual platform. However, the sańkīrtana movement can raise one immediately to the spiritual platform. Consequently it is said that varṇāśrama-dharma is external, and Caitanya Mahāprabhu requested Rāmānanda Rāya to proceed deeper into the matter and uncover the spiritual platform.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.60 from PURPORT.

[brajeshwara das]

 

If you are offended please excuse me. But Srila Prabhupada has said in no uncertain terms;

 

 

SB.5.1.24 purport

 

"Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krishna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society."

 

 

I hope we can move on from here with your blessing and support as you have said you would give if proven wrong.

 

CB-R

 

You do not listen well. I said I am not Srila Swami Maharaj's disciple, and you shouldn't make sweeping statements that we all should follow him or be deviating. He says he created his society and and in ISKCON is setting up the rules there, that is perfect and all who are initiates of him should follow. As I said I am not sure one way or the other what Srila Govinda Maharaj's view is on this, but I will follow that when I know. There was no 'proven wrong' here and if anything you should be more careful not to be offensive or assume Srila Swami Maharaj is the only authority and all others are deviants. This is offensive and you will suffer if you continue to think in this way. Let's get back to the topic at hand, but I want to be clear on this.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Begger

 

You said a mouth full in the first part of your post, I like it a lot. But the second part I have small issue with, if you please.

 

We don't reject DVD.

 

The ksatriya is the manager/leader of this material organization. Yes! Brahman is spiritual teacher/advisor. Brahman will not engage in any management that interfears with ksatriya's field of action, he will never take anothers service. This has already spoiled the hole thing. This brahman as managers was rejected by Srila Prabhupada in 74. And to this day is the bane of ISKCON. It is common knowledge Prabhupada's plan in 77 was to go to Gita-nagari to finally enforce implementation of the 4 varna and 4 asrama social system there.

 

I posted the mood of our sampradaya and how to understand DVD from Prabhupada. A post previosly, you did not read?

 

We do not do as Lord Caitanya in rejecting DVD. Please read this conversation.

 

As for India why not oganize their also. As you say India is 'home to varnasrama-dharma'. So it should be very easy, yes? No! not being done by anyone, Why? So much predisposition, a fertile field? Again very conspicuous by absents. I call BS, all centers world wide is the instruction.

 

Can we move past the elimental posision of who, why, when, where, what and proceed to the HOW, now?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Beggar]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama.

CB-R

Also Saraswati Thakur did not take the dress of a babaji for in his humility he saw that dress as meant for Srila Rupa, Sanatana and Raghunatha Goswamis etc., in other words parmahamsas. By definition paramahamsas are beyond the varnas and asrams. Also he was trying to organize a society and make Krsna Consciousness available to a larger segment of society. He then established the triadandi sannyasa that existed in the Ramanuja Sampradaya. But remember the Sannyasa order exists within the four asramas, not beyond it as the babaji status. The historical situation at that time was that the babaji status was being abused by those who had taken up Sahajiya practices such as smoking ganja and "protecting" widows and then having children with them and so on. So to counter this he at least established the daiva asramas.

 

 

As I said I am not sure one way or the other what Srila Govinda Maharaj's view is on this, but I will follow that when I know.

If you go through your gurudeva's literature and that of your param guru, Gaudiya Matha acaryas and that of Swami Maharaja Prabhupada's you will see that they are the same on this matter. The only difference is the time, place and circumstances and the slight adjustments made in light of that consideration.

[Guest guest]

 

You do not listen well. I said I am not Srila Swami Maharaj's disciple, and you shouldn't make sweeping statements that we all should follow him or be deviating. He says he created his society and and in ISKCON is setting up the rules there, that is perfect and all who are initiates of him should follow. As I said I am not sure one way or the other what Srila Govinda Maharaj's view is on this, but I will follow that when I know. There was no 'proven wrong' here and if anything you should be more careful not to be offensive or assume Srila Swami Maharaj is the only authority and all others are deviants. This is offensive and you will suffer if you continue to think in this way. Let's get back to the topic at hand, but I want to be clear on this.

 

 

You didn't read the reference? Srila Prabhupada has said that His spitiual master said like this, to engage in DVD. I posted the reference. That means all of Gaudiya Maths. Or is the SCSMath now disconnected? No, of course not.

 

But you also have a point, if your guru says different then you should do like that. And I will continue to say all of Gaudiya sampradaya, based on the explanation of my Prabhupada that DVD is the mood of the PARAMPARA, you can not avoid this. And I have made no offence to you by repeating such!

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakur has also said.

 

This is a little waste of posts and time, let us go to implementation and what can be done NOW, please move on. With a little reserch the simple things can be answered.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Guest guest]

 

Also Saraswati Thakur did not take the dress of a babaji for in his humility he saw that dress as meant for Srila Rupa, Sanatana and Raghunatha Goswamis etc., in other words parmahamsas. By definition paramahamsas are beyond the varnas and asrams. Also he was trying to organize a society and make Krsna Consciousness available to a larger segment of society. He then established the triadandi sannyasa that existed in the Ramanuja Sampradaya. But remember the Sannyasa order exists within the four asramas, not beyond it as the babaji status. The historical situation at that time was that the babaji status was being abused by those who had taken up Sahajiya practices such as smoking ganja and "protecting" widows and then having children with them and so on. So to counter this he at least established the daiva asramas.

 

 

If you go through your gurudeva's literature and that of your param guru, Gaudiya Matha acaryas and that of Swami Maharaja Prabhupada's you will see that they are the same on this matter. The only difference is the time, place and circumstances and the slight adjustments made in light of that consideration.

 

 

Hare Krsna Begger,

 

Well said brother!! Your a man after my own heart.

 

CB-R

[theist]

In practical terms all this varnashrama talk is simply mental plane. There is no way of imposing it formaly on society. One has to get a grasp on his or hers own natural tendancies and try to use those propensities in Krsna's service.

 

What is the practical, down to earth plan you have in mind Cd? Without such a practical plan all this talk of implenting varnashrama is simply a fantasy.

[Guest guest]

"Can we move past the elimental posision of who, why, when, where, what and proceed to the HOW, now?"

 

It seems that this thread has gotten off to an unpleasant and unfortunate start. SNM addressed some points regarding the "ashram" portion of DVD, which BTW I thought were quite valid, and instead of anyone addressing those points, he, along with a couple of other devotees were attacked for "apparently" flip-flopping. Whether he has changed his preaching strategy, I do not know. And even if he did, so what? It is not unheard of for Acaryas to adjust their preaching according to changes in circumstances. Maybe we can start over with a new thread? This time, addressing the issues themselves, in a non-sectarian manner, without all the quarrel which is the symptom of this age of Kali? I've seen these types of discussions before with regards to DVD, and inevitably, there is no consensus of opinion, only quarrel and ad hominem attacks. How can there be any type of productive discussion under such circumstances? I agree with Brajeshvara prabhu in that we need to be careful about discussing these issues without offending others, especially their Gurus. So much contention. Counterproductive.

[Guest guest]

These are not bad kids here, just left to their own devices they have regressed. No organization to be part of they seek outside stimulus. I say again it is not their fault, on the surface.

 

On the surface! But it is individual karma that each was born to a dysfunctional movement, that was ment to be a sanctuary in this ocean of nescients. Now what to do for them?

 

The elders are culpible for these kid lots. If they as senior, do nothing then each that refuses will have to pay a price. I, as one person, can do very little over all. That is way for 34 yrs I've been trying to induce, enthuse and otherwise preach this need, as Srila Prabhupada said to implement ASAP In ISKCON.

 

With right mood, from the congregation in Alachua could be the world leader/headquarters of DVD. A hell of a lot of talent here, just no organization.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

In practical terms all this varnashrama talk is simply mental plane. There is no way of imposing it formaly on society. One has to get a grasp on his or hers own natural tendancies and try to use those propensities in Krsna's service.

 

What is the practical, down to earth plan you have in mind Cd? Without such a practical plan all this talk of implenting varnashrama is simply a fantasy.

 

Yes, what is the plan for implementing this? Did Srila Swami Maharaj outline one, and if not can ISKCON do so without guidance from the acharya?

[Guest guest]

 

In practical terms all this varnashrama talk is simply mental plane. There is no way of imposing it formaly on society. One has to get a grasp on his or hers own natural tendancies and try to use those propensities in Krsna's service.

 

What is the practical, down to earth plan you have in mind Cd? Without such a practical plan all this talk of implenting varnashrama is simply a fantasy.

 

 

Hare Krsna Theist das

 

One step at a time, just as any journey is taken.

 

Step one is to introduce DVD idealogy. Brahman must/should preach this incessantly. I am not the preacher type by first choise, I do because I'm forced by circumstances. When we rid the atmosphere of the poison vani aversion, brainwashed rejection, than we will experience renewed enthusiasm to act.

 

As action is freely offered/agree opon, then we have ingredients/consensus. With knowledge of the ingrediances as to the who's and what's of the community to surrender, then we have a field of activities. From willing activites surrendered to the cause of DVD the Ksatirya's duty can commence and he will lead.

 

No ksatriya can tell what the 'plan' is unless he knows what he is working with. So many variables to take into account that it's 'fantasy' to demand an answer more than I have given.

 

First though, preaching at the elemental/atomic level by brahamns will need to be done, from those whom claim brahminical standard. No one listens to me/ksatriyas. If brahman refuses to do so, I/ksatriya will not let him claim that varna in my air, I will call very loudly BS. I/ksatriya wants to manage/protect only. Brahman will teach/preach, I will manage, vaisya will produce, sudra will help other and develop crafts and other things that are this varna.

 

All whom demand magic are just in the way. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. And any plan beyond the first preaching step, has to be based on speculation. So please in this mater, I would like to stay out of speculation and only deal with tangibles. On line is only good for a small exchange of ideas, only. Nothing tangible happens on line. I live in Alachua lets get together in person, then we will start. People, not air waves.

 

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

You didn't read the reference? Srila Prabhupada has said that His spitiual master said like this, to engage in DVD. I posted the reference. That means all of Gaudiya Maths. Or is the SCSMath now disconnected? No, of course not.

 

But you also have a point, if your guru says different then you should do like that. And I will continue to say all of Gaudiya sampradaya, based on the explanation of my Prabhupada that DVD is the mood of the PARAMPARA, you can not avoid this. And I have made no offence to you by repeating such!

 

Bhaktivinoda Thakur has also said.

 

This is a little waste of posts and time, let us go to implementation and what can be done NOW, please move on. With a little reserch the simple things can be answered.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

 

Sorry, I guess I jumped the gun a bit. And I never felt offended myself.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Yes, what is the plan for implementing this? Did Srila Swami Maharaj outline one, and if not can ISKCON do so without guidance from the acharya?

 

Hare Krsna

 

There is a book which is a compilation called "Srila Prabhupada Speaking about Varnashrama".

 

It is available at the following link.

 

http://krishna.tv/srila-prabhupada-speaking-about-varnasrama-p-741.html

 

Below I have reproduced the Table of contents from the book.

 

It is a compilation of various morning walks, room conversations, and lectures. The contents of the book are below. I have not read the book, but many of the conversations are familiar to me. I found so many direct instructions regarding DVD in his purports in the Gita and Bhagavatam especially that I searched and found much of it.

 

That is a primer.

 

The rest is observing where we are really at, (chuckle), and then observing yukta-vairagya in whatever varna we are most realistically inclined to according to our successful experiences in this life, or even latent abilities, this all needs to be revealed organically as we study Srila Prabhupada's explicit instructions for how His Disciples are to organize themselves according to DVD, which as you will see, if you read, was THE central theme of his instructional preaching to the leaders of his society from 74-77.

 

Varnasrama-dharma

1. Why is Varnasrama Important?

2. Mission of the Krsna consciousness Movement: to Create Varnasrama Colleges and

to Re-Esthablish Varnasrama

3. Varnasrama Is Possible and it Must be Possible

4. Instructions of the Previous Acaryas

5. Monteal, July 16, 1968—Room Conversation

6. New Vrindaban, June 9, 1969: Meeting with Devotees

7. Moscow, June 22, 1971: Conversation with Professor Kotovsky: Spiritual

Communism

8. London, November 25, 1973: Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.10.4

9. Los Angeles, December 31, 1973: Morning Walk

10. Vrndavana, March 12, 1974: Varnasrama Walk

11. Vrndavana, March 14, 1974: Varnasrama Walk

12. Vrndavana, March 14, 1974: Morning Walk

13. Vrndavana, March 15, 1974: Varnasrama Walk

14. Hyderabad, April 20, 1974: Morning Walk

15. Rome, May 25, 1974: Morning Walk at Villa Borghese

16. Rome, May 27, 1974: Morning Walk

17. Rome, May 28, 1974: Morning Walk

18. Geneva, June 6, 1974: Bhagavad-gita 13.35

19. Vrndavana, April 20, 1975: Conversation with Governor

20. New Orleans, August 1, 1975: Walk Around New Talavanva Farm

21. New Orleans, August 1, 1975: Room Conversation with Devotees New Talavanva

Farm

22. Mauritius, October 2, 1975: Morning Walk

23. Mauritius, October 3, 1975: Morning Walk

24. Mauritius, October 5, 1975: Room Conversation

2

25. Johannesburg, October 16, 1975: Morning Walk

26. Mayapura, March 1976: Declaring Our Dependence on God

27. New Vrindaban, June 22, 1976: Prabhupada Visits Palace and Garden

28. New Vrindaban, June 24, 1976: Room Conversation

29. New Vrindaban, June 26, 1976: Bhagavad-gita Chapter 16

30. Washington, D.C., July 8, 1976: Evening Darsana

31. New York, July 14, 1976: Interview with Newsday Newspaper

32. Philadelphia, July 15, 1976: Evening Lecture at Gita-Nagari Farm

33. Paris, August 2, 1976: Room Conversation at New Mayapura Farm

34. Paris, August 3, 1976: Room Conversation at New Mayapura Farm

35. Paris, August 3, 1976: Room Conversation

36. Paris, August 3, 1976: Room Conversation with French Commander

37. Hyderabad, August 22, 1976: Conversation with Seven Ministers of Andhra

Pradesh

38. Hyderabad, August 22, 1976: Room Conversation with Endowments

Commissioner of Andhra Pradesh

39. Chandigarh, October 16, 1976: Press Interview

40. India, January 11, 1977: Conversation on Train to Allahabad

41. Bhuvanesvara, January 21, 1977: Room Conversation

42. Mayapura, February 14, 1977: Conversation Varnasrama System Must be

Introduced

43. Mayapura, February 15, 1977: Evening Darsana

44. Vrndavana, October 6, 1977: Room Conversation

45. Vrndavana, October 8, 1977: Room Conversation at Krsna Balarama Temple

46. Vrndavana, October 18, 1977: Room Conversation

 

Jaya Prabhupada

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

So, what are his explicit instructions on how to determine who is in what section? Do we choose this ourselves, concensus, GBC like body, who? Sorry, I don't have the book.

[theist]

 

So, what are his explicit instructions on how to determine who is in what section? Do we choose this ourselves, concensus, GBC like body, who? Sorry, I don't have the book.

 

This is the factual objection. Who chooses? The GBC??? OMG. All their friends are brahmanas and everyone else is to work for them. No thanks. I am more interested in knowing my eternal nature and not in knowing the temporary nature. My varna will show up in the work I choose. No need for separate investigation.

 

As far as preaching goes why just the brahmanas preach? Everyone is responsible for spreading the holy name. One needn't have his varna assigned before he can chant so why not just concentrate the energy on spreading the chanting which is the only means for developing God consciousness in this age.

[Guest guest]

Gbc No Way

[brajeshwara das]

 

This is the factual objection. Who chooses? The GBC??? OMG. All their friends are brahmanas and everyone else is to work for them. No thanks.

 

Yep, this is the major problem. There may be more also, Srila Govinda Maharaj etc are not doing this either, possibly there are other good reasons.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna Devarsi das

 

 

I have seen this book and it is very nice, no not just nice. It is a damn good compilation of DVD in a general way. Though I question the commpleteness of it in the details that are intersperced throughout Prabhupada's vani. So I do suggest after reading this you continue to read all Prabhupada books, converstions, lectures completely to fine turn your understanding of DVD. The smaller details are little more hidden in one line snipits from Prabhupada.

 

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja