Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[Guest guest]

 

This is the factual objection. Who chooses? The GBC??? OMG. All their friends are brahmanas and everyone else is to work for them. No thanks. I am more interested in knowing my eternal nature and not in knowing the temporary nature. My varna will show up in the work I choose. No need for separate investigation.

 

As far as preaching goes why just the brahmanas preach? Everyone is responsible for spreading the holy name. One needn't have his varna assigned before he can chant so why not just concentrate the energy on spreading the chanting which is the only means for developing God consciousness in this age.

 

 

This so beneath an advanced vaisnava that it warrants no more reply.

 

CB-R

[Guest guest]

 

Yep, this is the major problem. There may be more also, Srila Govinda Maharaj etc are not doing this either, possibly there are other good reasons.

 

 

There is never a good reason to reject the parampara.

 

CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

 

This so beneath an advanced vaisnava that it warrants no more reply.

 

CB-R

 

You are calling yourself an advanced vaisnava? I mean no disrespect, just looking for clarification.

[brajeshwara das]

 

There is never a good reason to reject the parampara.

 

CB-R

 

I think it may be more complex than you know, and again, you should be careful.

[Guest guest]

 

So, what are his explicit instructions on how to determine who is in what section? Do we choose this ourselves, concensus, GBC like body, who? Sorry, I don't have the book.

 

Bhagavad-Gita by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, 1972 edition, so Prabhupada's full potency comes through. Best place to start.

 

CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

 

Bhagavad-Gita by A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, 1972 edition, so Prabhupada's full potency comes through. Best place to start.

 

CB-R

 

So who decides? Who says 'you are there, you are there'?

[Guest guest]

 

I think it may be more complex than you know, and again, you should be careful.

 

 

I risk all in the service of Prabhupada, especially to propigate this DVD cosmology. Even Hell for the duration of creation. If I step over the line I will be told by someone more qualified that you, that knows me better.

 

CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

When I lived at the temple there were definitely 'divisions of labor', this was all naturally sussed out or service was given depending on ability. There was no formal system where it was said 'you are a brahman' but it quickly worked itself out, some preached, some ran sankirtan, some dug ditches, etc. The most important thing was all were engaged in service.

[theist]

 

This so beneath an advanced vaisnava that it warrants no more reply.

 

CB-R

Maybe, but since I am not an advanced vaisnava or even a solid beginner you should feel to issue a response...... if you have one that is.

[brajeshwara das]

 

I risk all in the service of Prabhupada, especially to propigate this DVD cosmology. Even Hell for the duration of creation. If I step over the line I will be told by someone more qualified that you, that knows me better.

 

CB-R

Yes, I definitely am unqualified but still, beware. You think you know but you may not. Don't let you fool yourself.

 

Dayal Nitai, please forgive any offenses.

[Guest guest]

 

So who decides? Who says 'you are there, you are there'?

 

 

You miss the point. The discision is understood by your minute use of free will. It is observed, by you, by guru, by ksatriya. You are what you do. The ultimate descision is yours to make who you are. Guru/brahman will help give advice, ksatriya will at last concure with brahman usually.

 

CB-R

[Guest guest]

 

Yes, I definitely am unqualified but still, beware. You think you know but you may not. Don't let you fool yourself.

 

Dayal Nitai, please forgive any offenses.

 

That sounded like Guru, so I will concider seriously. And open the back door, just in case. LOL

 

CB-R

[Guest guest]

 

Maybe, but since I am not an advanced vaisnava or even a solid beginner you should feel to issue a response...... if you have one that is.

 

 

Read Bhagavad-Gita, I'm going to see some devotees right now and have sanga. Real life, back later to play with you.

 

CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

 

You miss the point. The discision is understood by your minute use of free will. It is observed, by you, by guru, by ksatriya. You are what you do. The ultimate descision is yours to make who you are. Guru/brahman will help give advice, ksatriya will at last concure with brahman usually.

 

CB-R

 

So if my false ego tells me that I am brahman when really I'm a sudra, because of my free will I get to decide? This is no different to me than getting the varna by birth. It is meaningless.

 

I am all for the idea of varna system imposed by Guru, but by false ego? I don't think so.

 

How did Srila Swami Maharaj intend this to be? Please provide real facts, quotes on how it would be decided.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Read Bhagavad-Gita, I'm going to see some devotees right now and have sanga. Real life, back later to play with you.

 

CB-R

 

So things that involve your body are real life, and this is not sanga?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna Prabhus

 

I believe that all a group of smart devotees need to do, is to read what Srila Prabhupada said about DVD from his Gita and Bhagavatam.

 

Then read all of the "purport to the purport" as Caturbahu Prabhu likes to say, that is, the various conversations on the subject.

 

This process itself is similar to the process of reading and rereading any transcendental subject matter. We think we are just reading, but simultaneously our lives are being arranged so that we can realize what we are reading, and in the case of instructions for sadhana, we get the opportunity to fit in and manifest according to our nature.

 

The best thing about Theist is that he won't be caught alive in a Smarta situation. He insists on an organic and factual recognition of people for who they are. If sincere devotees get trained up by reading Srila Prabhupada on DVD, they will automatically realize their current varna, ashram, and that of others. Then cooperation could ensue without false designations and condescension or power trips.

 

A real devotee of whatever Guna and Karma sees another devotee of "lower" varna as Lord Krsna's devotee coming to help him make advancement in devotional service and treats him or her like Cintamani Stone. Even though technically a QUALIFIED brahmana may be more advanced in knowledge of the science of Krsna at first than say a neophyte sudra, he knows a sudra can become just as qualified by Krsna's mercy, and be able to someday be "fully conversant in the Science of Krsna Consciousness" and become Spiritual Master.

 

There is a very relevant purport to this topic from the CC. Madhya 8.128

 

I will reproduce it at the bottom of this post. In it Srila Prabhupada puts emphasis that smarta is no good, and that anyone fully conversant with the science should be considered Guru and Spiritual master no matter what caste they are born in, and that even one displaying the qualities of a low varna can become conversant if they desire and complete the training "as a pure Vaisnava".

 

But he also, at the end of the purport, mentions that "This does not mean that people should take to His teachings and remain sudras or candalas"

 

The same goes for any varna which has a guna more favorable to spiritual advancement. Srila Prabhupada said in this lifetime we can change our Guna and Karma SB 5.1.14

 

So there is never any legitimate reason for condescension, but if a person is displaying lower varna consistently by life experience, they should not be under the illusion that they should artificially do the work of a higher varna if and when there is someone present in the community more materially qualified by guna and karma to do so.

 

The factors which make or break cooperation are humility and desire to be of service to a Mahabhagavat acharya. As long as people limit to their association to others with a similar heart and mind, everyone will be tolerant of minor discrepancies, and our advancement will be rapid.

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

 

I believe that all a group of smart devotees need to do, is to read what Srila Prabhupada said about DVD from his Gita and Bhagavatam.

 

Then read all of the "purport to the purport" as Caturbahu Prabhu likes to say, that is, the various conversations on the subject.

 

This process itself is similar to the process of reading and rereading any transcendental subject matter. We think we are just reading, but simultaneously our lives are being arranged so that we can realize what we are reading, and in the case of instructions for sadhana, we get the opportunity to fit in and manifest according to our nature.

 

The best thing about Theist is that he won't be caught alive in a Smarta situation. He insists on an organic and factual recognition of people for who they are. If sincere devotees get trained up by reading Srila Prabhupada on DVD, they will automatically realize their current varna, ashram, and that of others. Then cooperation could ensue without false designations and condescension or power trips.

 

 

If it were simply study of scripture with the goal of realizations of our varna coming to help us in our service then I think that is wonderful. What you described above works for me.

[theist]

 

I risk all in the service of Prabhupada, especially to propigate this DVD cosmology. Even Hell for the duration of creation. If I step over the line I will be told by someone more qualified that you, that knows me better.

 

CB-R

 

Vasudeva Datta syndrome maybe?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna Braj Prabhu

 

The only other way is that an advanced devotee can automatically engage someone according to their varna and ashram. If a person is willing to accept their determination on the matter. I just sifted through my mental files, but forget exactly the source of this quote from Srila Prabhupada but he did say a Spiritual Master is privy to the facts of the guna and karma of anyone who he lays eyes on, he knows the symptoms perfectly.

 

So when you mentioned your last example,

 

 

When I lived at the temple there were definitely 'divisions of labor', this was all naturally sussed out or service was given depending on ability. There was no formal system where it was said 'you are a brahman' but it quickly worked itself out, some preached, some ran sankirtan, some dug ditches, etc. The most important thing was all were engaged in service.Sort of like how you mentioned that at the temple at your math, people seemed to somewhat

 

This would be divinely perfect if these divisions were made under the watchful awareness of an advanced devotee, and his authorities adhered to his counsel in dispensing the labor.

 

This would be anywhere from slightly imperfect to an unmitigated disaster in proportion to the ACTUAL understanding of a less than advanced devotee if they were the TOP Authority.

 

As we know, advanced devotees, ones who are FULLY conversant with the sastra, are a rare thing. Even pure devotees, kanistha or madhyama may find themselves in a position where they would need to lead a local area, so they could check in with their Acharya's teachings on the matter, and their connection with Caitya Guru in order to cover their angles in a less then perfect situation.

 

For as some of us know, nothing is worse than being told by someone less qualified than you that they are going to do what you should be doing, and that YOU will be doing something you will either struggle at, or does not take advantage of your talents which leaves a person feeling half engaged and uninspired.

 

Now that the 40 year wave of Puffed Up Zonal Acharya Madness is over, perhaps deliberations like this one on this forum will provide impetus for more reasonable and suitable engagements for us all, and consequently, a more potent sankirtana movement, more souls reached, and the Lord even more pleased with us.

 

Thanks for the company.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

 

Vasudeva Datta syndrome maybe?

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 15.163

 

 

jīvera pāpa lañā muñi karoń naraka bhoga

sakala jīvera, prabhu, ghucāha bhava-roga

 

 

SYNONYMS

jīvera — of all conditioned souls; pāpa lañā — accepting the sinful reactions; muñi — I; karoń — do; naraka — hellish life; bhoga — experience; sakala jīvera — of all living entities; prabhu — my dear Lord; ghucāha — please finish; bhava-roga — the material disease.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"My dear Lord, let me suffer perpetually in a hellish condition, accepting all the sinful reactions of all living entities. Please finish their diseased material life."

 

 

PURPORT

 

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura gives the following commentary on this verse. In the Western countries, Christians believe that Lord Jesus Christ, their spiritual master, appeared in order to eradicate all the sins of his disciples. To this end, Lord Jesus Christ appeared and disappeared. Here, however, we find Śrī Vāsudeva Datta Ṭhākura and Śrīla Haridāsa Ṭhākura to be many millions of times more advanced even when compared with Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ relieved only his followers from all sinful reactions, but Vāsudeva Datta is here prepared to accept the sins of everyone in the universe. So the comparative position of Vāsudeva Datta is millions of times better than that of Lord Jesus Christ. A Vaiṣṇava is so liberal that he is prepared to risk everything to rescue the conditioned souls from material existence. Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta Ṭhākura is universal love itself, for he was willing to sacrifice everything and fully engage in the service of the Supreme Lord.

 

 

Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta knew very well that Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was the original Personality of Godhead, Transcendence itself, above the material conception of illusion and māyā. Lord Jesus Christ certainly finished the sinful reactions of his followers by his mercy, but that does not mean he completely delivered them from the pangs of material existence. A person may be relieved from sins once, but it is a practice among Christians to confess sins and yet commit them again. By getting freed from sins and again engaging in them, one cannot attain freedom from the pangs of material existence. A diseased person may go to a physician for relief, but after he leaves the hospital he may again be infected due to his unclean habits. Thus material existence continues. Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta wanted to completely relieve the conditioned souls from material existence so that they would no longer have an opportunity to commit sinful acts. This is the significant difference between Śrīla Vāsudeva Datta and Lord Jesus Christ. It is a great offense to receive pardon for sins and then commit the same sins again. Such an offense is more dangerous than the sinful activity itself. Vāsudeva Datta was so liberal that he requested Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to transfer all offensive activity upon him so the conditioned souls would be purified and go back home, back to Godhead. This prayer was certainly without duplicity.

 

 

Vāsudeva Datta's example is unique not only within this world but within the universe. It is beyond the conception of fruitive actors or the speculation of mundane philosophers. Due to being illusioned by the external energy and due to a poor fund of knowledge, people tend to envy one another. Because of this they are entangled in fruitive activity, and they try to escape this fruitive activity by mental speculation. Consequently neither karmīs nor jñānīs are purified. In the words of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Ṭhākura, they are kukarmīs and kujñānīs — bad fruitive actors and bad speculators. The Māyāvādīs and karmīs should therefore turn their attention to the magnanimous Vāsudeva Datta, who wanted to suffer for others in a hellish condition. No one should consider Vāsudeva Datta a mundane philanthropist or welfare worker. Nor was he interested in merging into the Brahman effulgence or in gaining material honor or reputation. He was far, far above philanthropists, philosophers and fruitive actors. He was the most exalted personality to ever show mercy to the conditioned souls. This is not an exaggeration of his transcendental qualities. It is perfectly true. Actually, there cannot be any comparison to Vāsudeva Datta. As the perfect Vaiṣṇava, he was para-duḥkha-duḥkhī, very much aggrieved to see others suffer. The entire world is purified simply by the appearance of such a great devotee. Indeed, by his transcendental presence the whole world is glorified and all conditioned souls are also glorified. As Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura confirms, Vāsudeva Datta is the ideal devotee of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu:

 

 

 

 

gaurāńgera sańgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kari' māne,

se yāya vrajendrasuta-pāśa

 

 

 

One who executes Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission must be considered eternally liberated. He is a transcendental person and does not belong to this material world. Such a devotee, engaging in the deliverance of the total population, is as magnanimous as Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself.

 

 

 

 

namo mahā-vadānyāya kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te

kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne gaura-tviṣe namaḥ

 

[Madhya 19.53]

 

 

Such a personality factually represents Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu because his heart is always filled with compassion for all conditioned souls.

 

 

 

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Vasudeva Datta syndrome maybe?

 

The funny thing is Theist, that if you knew CB, you would see that his actual mood and attitude in day to day life is exemplified by real spiritual compassion, and little of the material kind (as per Bhagavad Gita).

 

So if he says he feels like that, it is hardly imitation of such an exalted devotee like Vasudeva Datta, but more like following in the footsteps due to inspiration.

 

You just aren't used to meeting people who really feel like this, so I understand your poking.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

Yeah that's for sure, I am not used to meeting people of the calibar of Vasudeva Datta. That is a lot of compassion.

[Beggar]

I agree that the establishment of DVD would facilitate the organization of large Krsna Conscious Communities. On the other hand Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu told Ramananda Raya that varnasrama dharma is external. So some how I think that Srila Prabhupada desires that his followers sacrifice themselves to spread the internal thing, that is Love of God. The Sankirtan Yajna is the process for doing so, and Prabhupada started it with just a pair of karatalas and his pure chanting of Hare Krsna. How can you give what you don't have? So the real thing is for the disciples to also become pure devotees. Once the purity and realization are there then all the secondary, external things will follow like how to set up a society implementing DVD. We cannot stress the external over the internal. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja said if society consciousness and God consciousness come into conflict we must choose God consciousness. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would paraphrase the Bhagavatam verse "na te viduh svarta gatim hi visnu" as "we must dive deep into reality".

[Shakti-Fan]

I am post this again for I think it is important to understand how varnasrama dharma is external:

Three Types of Bhakti One should also remember that bhakti is of three types: svarupa siddha (those endeavors which are purely constituted of uttama-bhakti), sanga-siddha (those endeavors which are associated with or favorable to the development of bhakti but not of themselves purely composed of bhakti), and aropa-siddha (those activities which although not consisting of pure bhakti, are designated as bhakti due to their being offered to the Supreme Lord).

Aropa-siddha-bhakti: Endeavors indirectly attributed with the quality of bhakti.

Endeavors which by nature are not purely constituted of bhakti – that is, anukulya-krsnanusilana – and in which the performer, in order to fulfill his own purpose, offers his activities and their results to the Lord. This is called aropa-siddha-bhakti. In other words, because his activities are assigned (aropa) to the Supreme Lord, bhakti is attributed (aropita) to them.

Comment

That bhakti in which there is a mixture of karma or desires for material enjoyment is called sakama-bhakti or saguna-bhakti. Without the assistance of bhakti, karma cannot yield any fruit. Knowing this, many persons offer their prescribed duties for the satisfaction of the Lord, in order that He might fulfill their extraneous desires. The activities of such persons are not svarupa-siddha-bhakti. Nonetheless, because they offer the fruit of their activity to the Lord, it is considered as a type of bhakti. Although their activities are offered for the satisfaction of the Lord, their motivation is that by pleasing Him, He may fulfill their extraneous desires. In this case their activities are attributed with the sense of bhakti. Therefore, such endeavors are known as aropa-siddha-bhakti.

Sanga-siddha-bhakti: Endeavors associated with or favorable to the cultivation of Bhakti.

There are other endeavors which, although not purely constituted of bhakti, anukulya-krsnanusilana, acquire a likeness to bhakti due to their being established as assistants to bhakti. Such endeavors are known as sanga-siddha-bhakti. An example of this is found in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.3.23-25) in the statement of Sri Prabuddha Muni to Maharaja Nimi:

"One should cultivate compassion towards others, friendliness, offering respect to others, cleanliness, austerity, tolerance, silence, study of the Vedas, simplicity, celibacy, non-violence, and so on. One should consider heat and cold, happiness and distress to be the same. One should perceive the presence of the Lord everywhere. One should live in a secluded place, renounce family attachments and remain satisfied with gain which comes of its own accord."

Even though the behavior or practices described in this verse are not by nature purely constituted of bhakti, they are assistants to bhakti. Thus they are considered to be like associates or of bhakti. If bhagavad-bhakti is removed from the twenty-six qualities mentioned, then Bhagavan has no direct relationship with the remaining qualities such as compassion, friendliness, tolerance, austerity, and so on. Only when these items exist as assistants to or associates of bhakti is their likeness to bhakti affected. Therefore, they are known as sanga-siddha-bhakti.

 

Svarupa-siddha-bhakti: Endeavors purely constituted of uttama-bhakti

All favorable endeavors (cesta) such as sravana, kirtana, smarana, and so on, as well as the manifestation of the spiritual sentiments which occur beginning from the stage of bhava, which are completely devoid of all desires separate from Sri Krsna and which are freed from the coverings of jnana and karma are known as svarupa-siddha-bhakti. In other words all endeavors of the body, words and mind which are related to Sri Krsna and which are performed exclusively and directly for His pleasure without any interruption are known as svarupa-siddha-bhakti.

Therefore in the conversation between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Raya Ramananda, found in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, both aropa-siddha and sanga-siddha-bhakti have been described as external. (Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindhu 17-19, translation and commentary by Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja)

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna!

 

If one were to read even a 1/4 of what Srila Prabhupada had to say about the subject (and that is still alot of material) one would likely find as I have that his final assessment of us was that we were so Mixed in our devotion, that arranging ourselves according to DVD was to be the means by which we gradually became purified and thus actually attain the status of an unalloyed God Conscious servant.

 

He saw DVD as the vehicle by which his branch of the Gaudiya Sampradaya would continue to offer Hari Nama Sankirtana regularly into the future, and by which each local temple franchise would be able to grow and expand into an independent community that could support its own Harinama and preaching activities, without relying on the financial support of fickle congregations who were mostly looking for a church to tithe to in order to smooth their guilt for being grossly material, and all the pandering and compromise that entails.

 

The energy spent on that could simply be utilized to engage any serious congregationalist in a Daivi Varnashrama System, which would take em where they were at, apply Yukta Vairagya, and gradually transform their activities into a local community based self sufficient model. From modern madness to a semblance of Vedic order.

 

This would allow the preachers to eventually be more uncompromising (true compassion), and bring everyone gradually to the mode of goodness and beyond, all the time being everyone having at least some rudimentary awareness that they are already Krsna Conscious to some degree and it would only get better from there.

 

This further removes any emphasis on the need to jockey for position to be the "leader" or "guru", because everyone is basically equal, if it is done in the right spirit.

 

That is how I see this unfolding according to what I have read from Srila Prabhupada, my own experience of seeing Varnasrama unfolding in my own life, and some reasonably educated intuition of how that extends into the future. But only by reading what the Acharya wrote has a low life like me been carried even to this Mixed devotional platform, it is his Transcendentally motivated spoken orders to learn this DVD that is actually the force which transforms me and allows me to speak of this.

 

All Glories to Sri Guru.