Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Shakti Fan wrote,

 

Varnasrama is not Swarupa siddha Bhakti.

 

Has anyone implied this?

 

Is it not obvious that Srila Prabhupada considered that DVD was a means to that end?

 

As in another portion of your post, you wrote...

 

Even though the behavior or practices described in this verse are not by nature purely constituted of bhakti, they are assistants to bhakti. Thus they are considered to be like associates or of bhakti.

 

All those who come ready to directly engage in Swarupa siddha Bhakti, would likely be most careful not to denigrate the assistants and associate processes to Bhakti, especially in the company of those who come to Bhakti mixed, but sincere, and can truly use the assistance.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

The big problem is that now that ISKCON is splintered into myriad pieces and fragments. In places like LA and Alachua most of the second generation and much of the first generation are co-opted by mainstream Western society. Many devotees are living "The Night of the Devotional Dead", which if made would be a B Movie horror film. The same thing is going on in non-ISKCON Hare Krsna communities also. Many devotees need to be convinced to again take up the chanting of the Holy Names.

At one point the Germans controlled most of mainland Europe and were installing their style of social organization. Several years later they were being bombed and invaded and therefore retreating. At that point they were just trying to save their homeland from destruction. The social form of Krsna Consciousness has been routed by Maya. At this point perhaps the only thing left is development and spreading of Krsna Consciousness for individuals, families and small devotional associations. At this stage talking of implementing daiva varnasrama especially the varnas is grandiose and out of touch with the reality of the real situation. Perhaps the DVD promoters could take over New Vrndavana. No smocks and no German Shephards please!!! Keine Kittel und kein deutsches Shephards bitte!!!

[brajeshwara das]

Yeah, 'Cultural' Hare Krishnas in the way there are cultural Catholics and Jews. But at least they have some connection.

 

I have to say actually that many of the youth in my temple community are really engaged and impressive. I'm sure that's true all over though.

[Beggar]

 

Yeah, 'Cultural' Hare Krishnas in the way there are cultural Catholics and Jews. But at least they have some connection.

 

I have to say actually that many of the youth in my temple community are really engaged and impressive. I'm sure that's true all over though.

Certainly Hare Krsna Culture can be as external as DVD. But think about it one person is growing indoor tropical decorative plants, another marijuana plants, another Tulasi devi. Now you could say, who is better the person who grows marijuana and thinks, "I am so fallen I wish I could grow Tulasi devi" or the person growing Tulasis who is thinking about smoking marijuana?

Generally devotees grow and worship Tulasi and that is a form of devotional culture. The question could be asked why do we grow tulasi, why not grow marijuana?

Of course its better to be engage in "service" than not. But Krsna Consciousness and devotional service are one and the same. Mana manav a mad bhakto, always think of me, become my (Krsna's) devotee [bg 18.65]. The state of things in comtempory Hare Krsna commuinities is that the young people engage in an apparently impressive way and then go out and "party". This is a phenomena going on mostly in the West, so it must be going on where you are, Bay Area. Of course there are exceptional young devotees living in temples or maths and engaging full time and refraining from sneaking out and partying, unfortunately they are the exception to the rule. (of course you don't have to sneak out if you have your own place).

[brajeshwara das]

I guess what I'm saying is that for a Jiva to even want to get out of Maya's grasp and serve is rare indeed, and that so many I know are actively preaching, chanting their rounds, doing pujari seva, choosing to move into the temple from their comfy grhasta parent's homes, going to college while enduring austerities no one in thier peer groups in the surrounding areas would ever accept, that impresses me. That some go out and party, I can't deny. But I still am amazed and impressed.

[aarathi]

hi

[aarathi]

hallo friends

[anadi]

Don’t be cheated

Let’s look more carefully at what “Prabhupada" said in the

Room conversation February 14 1977, Sri Dhama Mayapura

Satsvarüpa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up (That the perfection of life can be achieved by following Varna-ashrama dharma) He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

Prabhupäda: “Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihä bähya”

(He said that it is external- iha bahya, meaning that it has nothing to do with the true nature of the soul – divine love for Krishna) Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.”

Satsvarüpa: But don’t we do that also?

Prabhupäda: No. Our position is different. …

In this statement “Prabhupada” rejects this teaching of Sri Caitanya, saying that what if

Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform…

Our position is different. (meaning that one should be interested also in something else than spiritual platform-

eventually practicing karma (in reality vi-karma) mishra bhakti – as daivi varNa-ashram dharma, which in the beginning of his preaching in the west SB Narayan M. rejected too)

It is true that everybody can choose what he pleases, or is qualified for. Everyone has his/her own independent potency – shatantra shakti, and follows his own iccha shakti desires.

One can follow Sri Caitanya’s teaching or one can follow “Prabhupada” teaching.

Is not that “Prabhupada” didn’t know what he does. He knew it well. He knew, he was cheating, and SB Narayan M knows it too, but both had/have practically another priority: expanding Iskcon / Bhakti-Trust…as priority goal (external, material).

“Prabhupada” knew:

“… Caitanya Mahäprabhu personally took sannyäsa. He rejected completely material. Nishkincana – (one must get rid of any material possessions).”

And than he says again that his followers should not take up this teaching of Sri Caitanya:

“But we are not going to be nishkincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the...”

And for the fact that he doesn’t want to follow this teaching of Sri Caitanya he says that there is a prescription in the Bhagavad-gita:

“That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gétä. We are not rejecting the whole society.”

The idea to model the society is of course very nice, so that it may bring a good environment for spiritual practices. But this was not the concern or the teaching of Sri Caitanya, and “Prabhupada” knew it well, than he says further:

“Caitanya Mahäprabhu rejected everything, ihä bähya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bähya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual.”

“But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. “

No, Sri Caitanya doesn’t say that this would be our duty (Sri Caitanya says this is external, this has noting to do with the duty or true nature of the soul – divine love for <st1:place w:st="Krishna</st1:place"> or Radha-Krishna).

“Krishna</st1:place> / Radha-krishna, caused by tasting His sweetness and beauty).

And Prabhupada adds:

And Caitanya Mahäprabhu, personality like that,..

This is cheating, Sri Caitanya rejected it. How can He like that what He rejects?!

And now it comes the core of the teachings of Prabhupada and his teacher SB Sarasvati:

… But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required (?!).

Preaching the basics for the neophyte is not the core of Gaudiya sadhana bhakti.

One should progress in diving into the sweet pastimes of Krishna and the gopis, (<st1:place w:st="on">S. Bhag.</st1:place> 10.33.39) by which one will attain

1 bhaktiM parAm bhgavati the highest bhakti for bhagavan

2 kAmaM hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty the disease of the heart – lust, is driven away

Sri Lilasuka (Bilvamangala Thakur) calls <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> ananda (ecstasy), and on the mouth of that ananda, a sringara rasa (erotic flavour) smile blooms up. He does not play any other games than the games of sringar rasa. Rasamaya Krishna and Rasamayi Radha shower Each other with nothing else but rasa during Their rasa-krida (delectable games), and the devotees that are fixed in smaran are constantly showered with the sweet relish of this rasa-krida.

These pastimes can only be attended in svarUpa-avesha, but one can take inspiration from the books of those who were in that state.

When the mind returns to the external world this svarUpAveza disappears, therefore Srila Narottama das Thakur sings:

sAdhana smaraNa lilAihAte nA koro helA kAya mane koryAsusAra

“Do not neglect the practice of smarana; make it the essence of everything for your body and mind!”

It is the nature of these transcendental pastimes to draw the mind toward one’s siddha svarUpa.

So, according one’s shraddha, one can be interested in daivi varnashram-dharma – vi-karma (we don't do karma) mishra bhakti or in shuddha bhakti – pure bhakti and seek someone who can inspire us to dive into the sweet pastimes of divine love of the Lord and His eternal associates, the gopis.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna Prabhus

 

Sriman Anadi said,

 

 

So, according one’s shraddha, one can be interested in daivi varnashram-dharma – vi-karma (we don't do karma) mishra bhakti or in shuddha bhakti – pure bhakti and seek someone who can inspire us to dive into the sweet pastimes of divine love of the Lord and His eternal associates, the gopis.

 

 

Actually, according to one's shraddha, one follows the prescription of the most prominent Acharya who is the most recent and current link to the Gaudiya Sampradaya. Or does not.

 

If the prescription is, "In my assessment of your presently manifested symptoms, Y'all are situated in the modes of nature, bereft of anything but a minute sentiment for Krsna, which you just got when you met me, and therefore divide up and practice Daivi Varnashrama Dharma so you can gradually attain the goal of Shudda Bhakti.

 

Then that WOULD be the INTEREST of one with some shraddha in the Spiritual Master. And this choice to follow in this way is INCLUSIVE of the means to attain the goal of Shuddha Bhakti, which the aspirant must have some tiny glimpse of even to accept spiritual discipline amidst their TRUE AND DOMINANT FAITH, WHICH IS PLACED IN MAHA-MAYA FOR SENSE GRAD.

 

If someone were to decide their interest was in Shuddha Bhakti and that is it, and think they are prepared to just do that, that is called nonsense, and to leave the person who so kindly woke them up and search out someone who will just speak of Radha and Krsna's intimate pastimes without requiring any prerequisite is called Sahajaism, and is ultimately counterproductive.

 

The person who accepted their very lowly mixed devotional state in the lower modes, and accepted the current Acharya's instruction to participate in DVD and gradually advance, will be seen happily advancing, or perhaps already advanced while the Sahajya is makes little to no advancement, and in most cases encounters difficult falldowns which eat up great periods of time before returning to their last REAL status of devotion.

 

Meanwhile they could have been making steady advancement according to their honest position.

 

Sad but True, it could happen to you, becarefulwhoyafollow.

 

ys

 

BD

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I guess what I'm saying is that for a Jiva to even want to get out of Maya's grasp and serve is rare indeed, and that so many I know are actively preaching, chanting their rounds, doing pujari seva, choosing to move into the temple from their comfy grhasta parent's homes, going to college while enduring austerities no one in thier peer groups in the surrounding areas would ever accept, that impresses me. That some go out and party, I can't deny. But I still am amazed and impressed.

And when some quantity of these young people discover that they are inwardly not so cut out for strictly brahminical types of service, and there is no qualified Ksyatria there to wisely discern their true symptoms according to guna and karma and thus encouragingly organize them into types of service which more suit their tendencies....

 

This will mean that someone who thinks they are a brahmana or ksyatria is in charge, but has no sensitivity to this level of philosophy, and will at first cajole, and then try to coerce the young person to continue with their "austere" service. Then they will burn out, and bloop, and some will never want to hear Krsna's name again.

 

Get it?

 

Hare Krsna

[Shakti-Fan]

Our own gurudeva [srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada] left un-published an essay he wrote on the Ramananda Samvad entitled, In Search For the Ultimate Goal of Life. His Divine Grace wrote this essay right after he took sannyasa (third initiation) in 1959. In the words of the publisher we read: "Because the talks between Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya had already been published by His Divine Grace in The Teachings of Lord Caitanya and his Caitanya-caritamrta purports, we hesitated to publish the manuscript, thinking that Srila Prabhupada had already published what he wanted to say on the subject. However, by the grace of Srila Prabhupada, I was inspired to read the manuscript again and again until finally I realized that my beloved gurudeva had expanded on some very confidential points in his original manuscript, which he did not fully reveal in either The Teachings of Lord Caitanya or the Caitanya-caritamrta purports.

"The style of Srila Prabhupad's writing in the manuscript is revealing. [....] Taking his readers to the realm of divine love, Srila Prabhupada extensively and freely reveals madhurya-prema the amorous love affairs of Srimate Radharani and Her cowherd girlfriends with Sri Krsna, the absolute King of Love, in the groves of Vrndavana---as the topmost platform of spontaneous love of Godhead...

"The talks between Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya constitute the acme of all theistic conceptions, and thus are held in the highest regard by all Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas. The conversation between Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya reveals the most esoteric truth about Vaisnava philosophy, allowing the reader to enter into the inner identity of the Lord and the purpose of His appearance. These talks are an important topic of Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta for all aspiring devotees. Srila Prabhupada s writing on this topic just after his accepting sannyasa is evidence of the special importance of these discussions for people in the renounced order of life. That he did not venture to publish it immediately is further evidence of the highly confidential and esoteric nature of this essay.

"Because the topic is a highly confidential subject matter, one may ask, 'What is the need to publish it, thus making it available to even neophyte devotees?' The answer is that although Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu requested that Ramananda Raya not disclose this topic but keep it a secret, Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami in his Caitanya-caritamrta openly reveals the details of the Lord s talks with Ramananda and encourages all the devotees to enter deeply into their inner meaning.

"Srila Prabhupada calls the discussions between Lord Caitanya and Ramananda Raya, In Search for the Ultimate Goal of Life and requests his readers to enter into the essence of transcendental romance and pure love of Godhead by sincerely hearing his humble narration. Therefore, we felt if we did not publish this manuscript, the worldwide community of devotees would be deprived of a most valuable gift."

Swami B.G. Narasingha

[theist]

It is like materially based morality. Such moral teachings as not killing or being violent to other living beings (ahimsa) is not directly spiritual per Bhagavad-gita. Yet the general populace must follow ahimsa for the order of society to be peaceful. It is with a peaceful mind that one can contemplate & meditate on the directly spiritual.

 

Should we then throw out moral conduct just because Sri Chaitanya and Ramananda Raya spoke of yet higher things? Should we try to imitate them as many are want to do thinking because we have a few verses of Their conversation we are now fit to imitate Ramananda Raya?

 

I have seen this happen so much. Some guy is externally always speaking on higher intimate levels of Krsna consciousness yet has no problem lying and stealing in his interactions with others failing to appreciate the transcendent soul and Supreme soul before him in the moment.

 

Factually Srila Prabhupada taught on several different levels simultaneously. The level of preaching to the general population on social structure to redirect the mass of human population towards God consciousness as well as more intimate directly Krsna conscious topics. Anyone can plug in according to their own level of advancement and take instruction from him. His mission field afterall was the entire planet.

 

Why are there so many instructions in the SB that lead up to the tenth canto? Are we just to reject them, skip over them and try to force our way into the rasa dance? Does that sound very intelligent or more like the classic sahajiya mentality?

 

Imitation babajis who can't keep their minds focused on their designated lifestyle sometimes use the internet forums as a way of preaching and as a contact to what they see as the outer world. Radha Kunda appearing too small to keep their minds satisfied. Often adding their critque of the teachings of genuine God empowered world teachers and showing the "flaws" in those teachings.

 

They would do well to instead preach to our fellow souls the basic principles of aham brahmasmi and eternal service to the Supreme Person.

 

We would do well to ignore them until they come down to earth recognizing their real positions in the scheme of things.

[brajeshwara das]

 

And when some quantity of these young people discover that they are inwardly not so cut out for strictly brahminical types of service, and there is no qualified Ksyatria there to wisely discern their true symptoms according to guna and karma and thus encouragingly organize them into types of service which more suit their tendencies....

 

This will mean that someone who thinks they are a brahmana or ksyatria is in charge, but has no sensitivity to this level of philosophy, and will at first cajole, and then try to coerce the young person to continue with their "austere" service. Then they will burn out, and bloop, and some will never want to hear Krsna's name again.

 

Get it?

 

DVD or Dust of the Feet of the Living Dead Gurus. What shall it be?

 

Hare Krsna

 

They have the shelter of Srila Govinda Maharaj. The mood at SCSMath is not ISKCON, the austerites are self-imposed and not seen as austerities by these kids, I know that. It is through love and affection they come, and through love and affection they stay.

[brajeshwara das]

 

...and there is no qualified Ksyatria there to wisely discern their true symptoms...

 

...brahmana or ksyatria is in charge, but has no sensitivity to this level of philosophy...

 

So in your society, who will decide who is qualified? The GBC? Who? How will this work? We have gone beyond asking if this should be done, sure, but HOW? Who is to say who is qualified? Many at the top are often found to be unqualified, worse even.

 

You also say 'Dust of the Feet of the Living Dead Gurus' what is that supposed to mean? I hope you are referring to ISKCON and not SCSMath.

[Guest guest]

The question is ... is it practical in the age of Kali Yuga where people are having trouble just keeping the 4 regulative principles and chanting the holy name?

[brajeshwara das]

 

The question is ... is it practical in the age of Kali Yuga where people are having trouble just keeping the 4 regulative principles and chanting the holy name?

The thinking is it would help you keep the 4 regs and assist in receiving the Holy Name.

[Beggar]

 

They have the shelter of Srila Govinda Maharaj. The mood at SCSMath is not ISKCON, the austerites are self-imposed and not seen as austerities by these kids, I know that. It is through love and affection they come, and through love and affection they stay.

 

This must be a universal principle, that Krsna Consciousness is based on love and affection. Prabhupada would say that a spiritual society is based on love and trust. Unfortunately there is the kanistha mentality in all large groups. So some persons even preach that one must follow your guru or another guru otherwise one is lost or going to hell. This mentality is just a manifestation of that person's lack of development of love and affection. Their motivation for practicing life is actually based on their fear of the consequences of not doing so. Love and affection must refer to bhakti, how could it be otherwise? The wise remember Srila Sridhar Maharaja's famous remark, "we are devotees of free faith". Therefore everywhere, in this world there is pure devotional service and devotional service which is mixed with the modes of material nature. Mixed also means motivations which are not pure or suddha. This analysis must always be there, otherwise we are just being sentimental. Sometimes when we want others to do what we are doing it becomes just an extension of our own false ego.

[Guest guest]

 

The thinking is it would help you keep the 4 regs and assist in receiving the Holy Name.

 

That is my understanding also. Then again, Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada preached that "brahmanas are the head." So, what comes first in DVD, the varnas or the ashramas? I would think ashrama. But so many are having difficulty even maintaining their ashrama and performing the basics such as chanting and following the 4 regulative principles. Unless the "ashram" aspect of DVD is strong, especially with brahminically qualified devotees, then how will the varna aspect ever develop according to Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada's desires? Just asking, as I honestly don't know. It's been 30 years and if DVD has yet to be implemented as planned, then perhaps these are valid questions?

[brajeshwara das]

 

Unless the "ashram" aspect of DVD is strong, especially with brahminically qualified devotees, then how will the varna aspect ever develop according to Srila B.V. Swami Prabhupada's desires?

 

Yes, this comes down to leadership, who is qualified? And if qualified, do they have the trust of the community to lead? Will the community follow? What if they won't?

 

Anyhow, at the end of the day I would be very happy to have this in place, just how is all I'm asking. If it is not done correctly it could cause more harm than good, and discredit the concept, like the caste system in India has done.

[anadi]

 

...Anadi said,

 

So, according one’s shraddha, one can be interested in daivi varnashram-dharma – vi-karma (we don't do karma) mishra bhakti or in shuddha bhakti – pure bhakti and seek someone who can inspire us to dive into the sweet pastimes of divine love of the Lord and His eternal associates, the gopis.

(But)

Actually, according to one's shraddha, one follows the prescription of the most prominent Acharya who is the most recent and current link to the Gaudiya Sampradaya. Or does not.

 

Dear bhakta Devarshi, dandavat pranam.

 

1. This idea “of the most prominent Acharya” is only Iskcon politics which heavily started in the early ’90-ies, as a massive upsurge of disciples left Iskcon for Gaudiya Mat, or even for “the babajis” or just became seek of preaching and of the continuous down fall of the so called gurus of Iskcon (see the forum of Gaudiya repercussions – which should be better entitled Iskcon repercussions), and the defectors were presented as traitors of “Srila Prabhupada”.

2. And the idea of the most recent and current link is another invention of Iskcon which has nothing to do with the teachings of Sri Caitanya as presented by Srila Rupa Gosvami, and Jiva Gosvami about guru and parampara.

3. If Sri Caitanya teaches one thing and “Prabhupada” the opposite, I prefer to follow Sri Caitanya, and you are free to follow “the most prominent Acharya”

You also said:

If the prescription is, "In my assessment of your presently manifested symptoms, Y'all are situated in the modes of nature, bereft of anything but a minute sentiment for Krsna, which you just got when you met me, and therefore divide up and practice Daivi Varnashrama Dharma so you can gradually attain the goal of Shudda Bhakti.

<!--[endif]-->

This prescription is not from Sri Caitanya or His empowered representatives from Vrindavan, who followed His teachings.

Srila Rupa Gosvami said that one should follow sadhana bhakti not any other thing,like (daivi) varnashram-dharma, that Sri Caitanya rejected:

ataḥ pumbhir dvija-śreṣṭhā / varṇāśrama-vibhāgaśaḥ

svanuṣṭhitasya dharmasya / saḿsiddhir hari-toṣaṇam (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.13)

 

O best among the twice-born, one achieves the highest perfection (saMsiddhir) by discharging the duties prescribed for one's own occupation

according to social divisions (varNa) and religious orders of life (ashrama) thus pleasing (toSaNam) the Supreme Lord (Hari – the Well Wisher of His devotees)

 

Sri Krishna Himself says:

 

cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ / guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māḿ / viddhy akartāram avyayam Bhagavat-gita 4.13

 

According to one's own qulities (guna) and the work (karma) associated with them, the four divisions of human society

are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.

But than came the same Krishna in the form of Sri Caitanya and said, no, one should forget about varnashram dharma - this is external.

One goes his regular job, due to his material attachment, and this is due to his weakness, not that this is the way of bhakti.

Endeavoring for something else than bhakti is not recomanded by Srila Rupa Gosvami in the second verse of Upadeshamrita: he says prayas – endeavoring for something else than bhakti kills bhakti – bhakti vinashyati!

[Beggar]

 

One goes his regular job, due to his material attachment, and this is due to his weakness, not that this is the way of bhakti.

Endeavoring for something else than bhakti is not recomanded by Srila Rupa Gosvami in the second verse of Upadeshamrita: he says prayas – endeavoring for something else than bhakti kills bhakti – bhakti vinashyati!

Still if someone is doing mixed bhakti, and still endeavoring for something else then it would be better to be a milk seller than a butcher. This is the relative application of DVD for to act in sattva or goodness will help facilitate a change heart towards unmotivated bhakti whereas acting so much in tamas or ignorance would be devastating. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has told, "there is always the absolute, an then the relative consideration." You are trying to look at the issue from the absolute viewpoint, but you are blind to the relativity of you own position.

[brajeshwara das]

DVD is there to support bhakti, not replace it. Just like the regulative principles aren't bhakti. Training wheels, we need training wheels! But the priority of instituting this I don't know. I'll follow the dictates of my Gurudeva. I think saranagati and the sisastikam should be my main push personally. If I were tolerant, humble and willing to respect others everything else would be easy. If I were surrendered I would follow without compromise. Then I could chant the Holy Name.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

DVD is there to support bhakti, not replace it.

 

I would take this one step further and say DVD is an *effect* of Bhakti. When we (or enough of us) become fixed on Krishna through Guru and Gauranga, Varnashram will happen spontaneously. After all, Varnashram Dharma is not a prescription for how things *ought* to be, it is a description of how things *are* in a balanced, God-conscious society.

 

So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities.

[brajeshwara das]

 

After all, Varnashram Dharma is not a prescription for how things *ought* to be, it is a description of how things *are* in a balanced, God-conscious society.

 

So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities.

This is a new thought on this topic here, and it sounds right to me. Only thing is to find a balanced, God-conscious society . But I agree, like I mentioned when I lived at the temple things naturally fell into place, though of course we had our issues. But there were the varnas and ashrams and it was pretty clear to me. I never thought then we needed some 'official' designating commitee.

[anadi]

 

Still if someone is doing mixed bhakti, and still endeavoring for something else then it would be better to be a milk seller than a butcher. This is the relative application of DVD for to act in sattva or goodness will help facilitate a change heart towards unmotivated bhakti whereas acting so much in tamas or ignorance would be devastating. As Srila Sridhar Maharaja has told, "there is always the absolute, an then the relative consideration." You are trying to look at the issue from the absolute viewpoint, but you are blind to the relativity of you own position.

 

Dear beggar, dandavat pranam,

 

you may also take into consideration that:

 

1. Ahimsa is a basic yoga principle, and has nothing to do with the invention of a DVD process of attaining the goal - prema.

2. Being a milk seller is no qualification for practicing bhakti.

Material Goodness is no qualification for bhakti.

No material qualities can qualify one for bhakti.