Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[anadi]

 

DVD is there to support bhakti, not replace it. Just like the regulative principles aren't bhakti. Training wheels, we need training wheels! But the priority of instituting this I don't know. I'll follow the dictates of my Gurudeva.

I think saranagati and the sisastikam should be my main push personally. If I were tolerant, humble and willing to respect others everything else would be easy. If I were surrendered I would follow without compromise. Then I could chant the Holy Name.

Dear Brajeshwara, dandavat pranam,

you are perfectly right:saranagati and the sisastikam should be a main push personally,

I would also say one should not forget the prominent aspects of sadhana-bhakti

1. Sadhu-sanga (Associating with Saints)

2. Nama-kirtana (Chanting the Holy Names)

3. Bhagavat-shravan (Hearing the Srimad Bhagavatam)

4. Mathura-vasa (Living in the Holy Land of Mathura)

5. Sri-murtira-shradaya-sevan (Faithfully serving the Worshipable Form of the Lord).

 

DVDs are more something for the ruleres, politicians that try to institutionalize bhakti, for the one's that want to change others, not themselves.

[Beggar]

 

No material qualities can qualify one for bhakti.

Dear Anadi, please accept my dandavat pranams.

Still that is the absolute truth and the absolute perspective. Magrari the hunter gave up hunting amimals and then followed the bhakti path. Violence to animals is unfavorable for bhakti so it is renounced. Yet ahimsa itself is not really a qualification for transcendental greed for Krsna prema. Perhaps we are getting lost in the duality of cause and effect.

[anadi]

Originally Posted by anadi

No material qualities can qualify one for bhakti.

 

 

Dear Anadi, please accept my dandavat pranams.

Still that is the absolute truth and the absolute perspective. Magrari the hunter gave up hunting amimals and then followed the bhakti path. Violence to animals is unfavorable for bhakti so it is renounced. Yet ahimsa itself is not really a qualification for transcendental greed for Krsna prema. Perhaps we are getting lost in the duality of cause and effect.

 

Dear beggar, dandavat pranam,

 

The Absolut truth and nothing but the truth?

or The Absolut Truth is Krishna, or Divine Love - RAdha, or our love when it will be Absolut...?

 

Bhakti comes from bhakti - sadhu, sadhu.

Mrigari had association with sadhu.

[theist]

 

DVDs are more something for the ruleres, politicians that try to institutionalize bhakti, for the one's that want to change others, not themselves.

 

Instituionalize? The rulers duty is to see that everyone acts in harmony with a progressive God conscious ideal.

 

Just because one wants to see others change is no an indication that they do not want to change and grow themselves. In fact it could very easily be the opposite. Someone may be inspired by the internal changes they experience and desire the same for their fellow souls in this world.

 

If you don't believe in this principle then why are you bothering to present your thoughts here in hopes of changing us?

[brajeshwara das]

In that line of thinking, is Guru trying to 'institutionalize' bhakti then?

[anadi]

 

Instituionalize? The rulers duty is to see that everyone acts in harmony with a progressive God conscious ideal.

 

Just because one wants to see others change is no an indication that they do not want to change and grow themselves. In fact it could very easily be the opposite. Someone may be inspired by the internal changes they experience and desire the same for their fellow souls in this world.

 

If you don't believe in this principle then why are you bothering to present your thoughts here in hopes of changing us?

1. Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assists his disciple in making conscious that loving relation.

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

 

2. I will never change you by my posting, but I learn my self from your consideration points.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I would take this one step further and say DVD is an *effect* of Bhakti. When we (or enough of us) become fixed on Krishna through Guru and Gauranga, Varnashram will happen spontaneously. After all, Varnashram Dharma is not a prescription for how things *ought* to be, it is a description of how things *are* in a balanced, God-conscious society.

 

So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities.

 

Please accept my obeisances Prabhu,

 

Before you take that step further, please consider this.

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada prescribed by direct order that his disciples divide themselves into identifiable categories of varna and ashrama and that was to be implemented in his entire society. As a matter of fact he more or less word for word stated exactly that, I don't have the conversation folio handy, but below I will show ample circumstancial evidence until you can look that quote up yourself on the net.

 

What exactly is artificial introduction?? Are you saying that in your mind people who follow instructions of an Acharya (not a spontaneous activity in the beginning I assure you) are doing the wrong thing? That the Acharya in question was not the genuine article, and thus artificial?

 

You must not have read much about how my Srila Prabhupada explained how introducing DVD would help us advance in our devotional service. He even went so far as to say the following (among dozens of similar quotes I don't have the time to look up)

 

SB 9.10.51

PURPORT: Among the four yugas—Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali—the Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for this purpose.

 

SB 4.12.48 : The Krishna consciousness movement has been started especially to create qualified brähmaëas to broadcast spiritual knowledge all over the world, for thus people may become very happy.

 

Madhya 7.128 :

This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. Many people come and inquire whether they have to give up family life to join the Society, but that is not our mission. One can remain comfortably in his residence. We simply request everyone to chant the maha-mantra: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. If one is a little literate and can read the Bhagavad-gita As It Is and Srimad-Bhagavatam, that is so much the better. These works are now available in an English translation and are done very authoritatively to appeal to all classes of men.

 

 

Madhya 8.5.58: The brahmanas are the intellectuals who can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are always engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. It does not matter whether one is born in India or outside India. Those who are naturally very heroic and who tend to rule over others are called ksatriyas. Those who tend to produce food by agricultural methods, protect cows and other animals and engage in trade are called vaisyas, or merchants. Those who are not sufficiently intelligent to be brahmanas, ksatriyas or vaisyas are required to serve a master and are called sudras. Thus everyone can engage in the service of the Lord and thus awaken his natural Krsna consciousness. If a society does not function according to such natural divisions, the social orders become degraded. The conclusion is that the scientific method of varnasrama-dharma should be adopted by society.

 

Enough said right?

 

ys

 

BD

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada prescribed by direct order that his disciples divide themselves into identifiable categories of varna and ashrama and that was to be implemented in his entire society. As a matter of fact he more or less word for word stated exactly that, I don't have the conversation folio handy, but below I will show ample circumstancial evidence until you can look that quote up yourself on the net.

 

Enough said right?

 

 

Right. So we should rename it the International Society for Varnashram Dharma, then.

 

Enough said, right?

 

I hope to be able to post a more detailed response after my staff meeting.

 

Hari!!!!!!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

1. Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assist his disciple in making conscious that loving relation.

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

 

2. I will never change you by my posting, but I learn my self from your consideration points.

 

Sriman Anandi, you seem to have a tendency to define Bhakti to suit the moment. This is a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya, for in this case you are pronouncing a SMARTA position which is roundly rejected by the Bona Fide Acharyas of the Gaudiya line.

 

You say Bhakti is not the cause of an institution coming into being. Yet the sentence previous you say that a Guru assists a disciple in becoming conscious of Bhakti or his loving relationship with the Lord.

 

The truth is that the Guru is an embodyment of Lord Krsna's own Bhakti for the Jiva, and the Guru assists the Jiva in BECOMING (A PROCESS OVER TIME) CONSCIOUS of Bhakti, then the first interaction is actually characterized by Bhakti, and the neophyte Jiva is considered a Bhakta, doing Bhakti Sadhana and Part of that assistance is quite obviously instructions on how to create and manage an institution to deal with those pesky material considerations you mention, which most Jiva's remained engaged with for quite some time while executing beginning devotional service.

 

So the DEVOTIONAL position, that of a Bhakta, is to see the institution as grounded in the Lord's devotion for the fallen, and part of his giant helping hand to help us peons manage our material consideration in a way conducive to advancement in Bhakti.

 

In the SMARTA position, noone can be approached for advancement, because the need to meet people where they are at is impossible, because the SMARTA's program denies material consideration except to condemn them. Noone can be lifted out by that technique.

 

So I figure a wise person like you can take your intellect now, and use it to see where people are at, and engage them in Bhakti from there, now. Right now. Not that tomorrow all will be in their siddha deha exibiting swarupa siddhi. Unless you want to be alone forever, bring people up gradually from where they are.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Right. So we should rename it the International Society for Varnashram Dharma, then.

 

Enough said, right?

 

I hope to be able to post a more detailed response after my staff meeting.

 

Hari!!!!!!

 

I said "enough said, right" as in this should be enough to help you pause and correct your previous direction which certainly was awry as you can see.

 

And ironically, your idea might have some merit for the time being until Iskcon can work out its problems and is not such an eyesore, I know tons of people who would be happy to be explained to reasonably how engaging in DVD would enhance their lives. Then when they are happy with it, we could introduce them to the Originator of the idea, and they would fall madly in love with such a Wonder Full Being.

 

Hari Hari!

 

{I am guilty of an exaggeration, I don't know tons, just a couple handfuls personally, but I can see there are many others beyond my vision. If I knew them I would just preach to them myself.}

[brajeshwara das]

There is still no answer to 'who decides who is what'.

[theist]

 

There is still no answer to 'who decides who is what'.

 

The main DVD players have no capacity for answering that question.

 

Perhaps one's siksa guru will point this out to the aspirant or from within the Lord may give the intelligence to see for themselves their own present position.

 

Factually if you take it from some ecclesiastical appointed arbirtrator you are accepting him as an ecclesastical siksa guru.

 

So after all the hubub it comes down to one seeing for himself where he fits in and acting accordingly.

 

Some things are beyond mass marketing.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

SB 9.10.51 Purport:

 

"Among the four yugas—Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali—the Kali-yuga is the worst, but if the process of varnasrama-dharma is introduced, even in this age of Kali, the situation of Satya-yuga can be invoked. The Hare Krsna movement, or Krsna consciousness movement, is meant for this purpose."

 

 

We see from the Bhagavad Gita Chapter 3 text 35 the Prescription from Srila Prabhupada is perfectly clear in regard to this purpose (among others) of his Krsna Consciousness Movement.

 

Our Sva Dharma or prescribed duties are presented in such a way to demonstrate the practicality of this, implying the direct and necessary inclusion of the roles of specific varnas, on either the material or the spiritual platform, and how even on the material platform acting in one's varna is done simultaneously with having a "full sense" of Krsna Consciousness.

 

Also, we have direct evidence of the fruits following this prescription will bear by the authoritative statements in this purport within the "ABC's of Spiritual life", the Bhagavad Gita.

 

Direct Evidence from the Bhagavad Gita 3.35 that Srila Prabhupada was INSTRUCTING anyone who would take DISCIPLINE from him that while knowing and engaging in one's VARNA ON THE MATERIAL PLATFORM, one may be and SHOULD DO SO WITH A FULL SENSE OF KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS.

 

Text 35

 

sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah

para-dharmat sv-anusthitat

sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah

para-dharmo bhayavahah

Audio

SYNONYMS

sreyan—far better; sva-dharmah—one's prescribed duties; vigunah—even faulty; para-dharmat—from duties mentioned for others; svanusthitat—than perfectly done; sva-dharme—in one's prescribed duties; nidhanam—destruction; sreyah—better; para-dharmah—duties prescribed for others; bhaya-avahah—dangerous.

TRANSLATION

It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though they may be faulty, than another's duties. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

 

PURPORT

One should therefore discharge his prescribed duties in full Krsna consciousness rather than those prescribed for others. Prescribed duties complement one's psychophysical condition, under the spell of the modes of material nature. Spiritual duties are as ordered by the spiritual master, for the transcendental service of Krsna. But both materially or spiritually, one should stick to his prescribed duties even up to death, rather than imitate another's prescribed duties. Duties on the spiritual platform and duties on the material platform may be different, but the principle of following the authorized direction is always good for the performer. When one is under the spell of the modes of material nature, one should follow the prescribed rules for particular situations and should not imitate others. For example, a brahmana, who is in the mode of goodness, is nonviolent, whereas a ksatriya, who is in the mode of passion, is allowed to be violent. As such, for a ksatriya it is better to be vanquished following the rules of violence than to imitate a brahmana who follows the principles of nonviolence. Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly. However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master. In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as a ksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply. For example, Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana, but later on he acted as a ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Krsna consciousness.

 

His Desire and the Necessity for countless Jiva souls is more obvious to me than ever how about you?

[brajeshwara das]

Who decides?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

The main DVD players have no capacity for answering that question.

 

Perhaps one's siksa guru will point this out to the aspirant or from within the Lord may give the intelligence to see for themselves their own present position.

 

Factually if you take it from some ecclesiastical appointed arbirtrator you are accepting him as an ecclesastical siksa guru.

 

So after all the hubub it comes down to one seeing for himself where he fits in and acting accordingly.

 

Some things are beyond mass marketing.

 

 

Who Decides?

 

The is an answer to the both the quandry of "who decides", and the fact that Theist suggests that someone may see for them self .

 

So since until now, one's self has been in ignorance, and one's self does not know yet and still needs a WAY to BEGIN to see for themselves who they are in the connection to this topic.

 

This requires one to see for himself BOTH WHO HE IS, AND WHO EVERYONE ELSE IS in order to know where he fits in, and then act accordingly.

 

And since we are all declared less than Sudra by Srila Prabhupada (who first found "us") it was HIS DUTY to decide who was who. So he cunningly will achieve this end by dint of the fact that he gave us the instructions so we could figure this out amongst ourselves AND FOR OURSELVES afterwards in the following way...

 

First, carefull evaluation of his perspective on things regarding DVD and its necessity.

 

Second, observation of ourselves and others and thus classification for the purposes of determining "where we fit in".

 

Third, start enjoying the FRUITS, by slowly seeing how mostly we were already doing it, and even subtly cooperating already, it is just like in the earliest days where there was hardly a temple and Srila Prabhupada told us about all these temples that he could see, they were already there actually, but we still had to build them.

 

Read about it, and it will come.

 

Read about Daivi Varnasrama from Srila Prabhupada and Daivi Varnasrharma will come.

 

Read about it, follow it, realize it, and the fruits will come. That is the promise of the Acharya regarding his instructions on DVD. He explicitly states that its execution, no matter the varna, is not different than being Krsna Consciousness.

 

Ok, I guess I'll see you here and there.

 

All Glories to the most merciful Bhakta to the most fallen Bhaktas, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

Hare Krsna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I said "enough said, right" as in this should be enough to help you pause and correct your previous direction which certainly was awry as you can see.

 

And ironically, your idea might have some merit for the time being until Iskcon can work out its problems and is not such an eyesore, I know tons of people who would be happy to be explained to reasonably how engaging in DVD would enhance their lives. Then when they are happy with it, we could introduce them to the Originator of the idea, and they would fall madly in love with such a Wonder Full Being.

 

Hari Hari!

 

{I am guilty of an exaggeration, I don't know tons, just a couple handfuls personally, but I can see there are many others beyond my vision. If I knew them I would just preach to them myself.}

 

No, I don't see how I was awry, Prabhu. My flippantly-made point about renaming ISKCON has to do with *focus*. The focus is on serving Krishna via the Holy Name, Guru, and the Vaishnavas. It's about Krishna Consciousness.

 

I mean no offense, but your proposition that folks could be introduced to DVD *before* being introduced to Krishna is simply ludicrous.

 

From your own quotes of Srila Prabhupad, the recommended medicine is Krishna Nam, and, if the person is somewhat literate, reading Bhagavad Gita. That's where the whole journey starts.

 

For the typical sense-enjoyer who yet has no taste for Nama Sankirttan, how is a dry discussion of Varnashram going to be appealing?

 

Krishna is the all-attractive. Krishna is the harmonizing principle. Before any society can even begin to resemble DVD, there must be a lot of purification. Otherwise, folks artificially trying to adhere to DVD have the same chance of success as a neophyte Bhakta trying to impersonate a self-realized Acharya.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

What exactly is artificial introduction?? Are you saying that in your mind people who follow instructions of an Acharya (not a spontaneous activity in the beginning I assure you) are doing the wrong thing? That the Acharya in question was not the genuine article, and thus artificial?

This is certainly a delicate point, and I am certainly not in any way calling into question the purity or authority of Srila Prabhupad. I *do* call into question our ability to understand his instructions, however simple and straightforward they may seem.

 

Let me reframe your question. Shastra clearly describes the symptoms of Prem/Divine Love. We know that, if we follow Guru faithfully, Prem will come. Does that mean that we should artificially produce the symptoms of Prem? I think not. We take the medicine, and the cure will come spontaneously (not really spontaneously, but by the will of the Divine, but certainly not by our own will-power).

 

My whole point which you did not address is that, like the symptoms of Krishna Prem, Varnashram Dharma is a symptom of a Krishna Conscious society. When SP says to introduce DVD, just what does he mean? Does he not mean to accomplish this by spreading the mercy of Mahaprabhu?

 

 

Madhya 8.5.58: The brahmanas are the intellectuals who can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are always engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. It does not matter whether one is born in India or outside India. Those who are naturally very heroic and who tend to rule over others are called ksatriyas. Those who tend to produce food by agricultural methods, protect cows and other animals and engage in trade are called vaisyas, or merchants. Those who are not sufficiently intelligent to be brahmanas, ksatriyas or vaisyas are required to serve a master and are called sudras.

If you notice in the above quote, the use of the words "naturally", and "tend". Those are indications that this is not an imposed system (as the current hereditary caste system is), but rather, comes about due to the natures of the persons in society.

[Guest guest]

 

Who decides?

 

Hare Krsna All Prabhus

 

Nice posts, mostly. BK Devarsi! Thanks.

 

You are 'what you do', If you chant 16 rounds, then you are known as a person that chants 16 rounds. If not! then you are known as a person that doesn't chant 16 rounds. You made this for yourself, I did not force you. The decision to act in any given manner is yours. But after acting then you must be accountable. Good, bad or transendental.

 

If you eat meat then you are a meat eater, if not? then? you are not known as a meat eater. You made the hole discision/action yourself. Though outside influence may have come, you are the fully accountable person, the doer. It is now your karma, good or bad. You discided, first.

 

Then others are consuted, ksatriya and brahman. Which 'you' might be. I do not know this.

 

Each item/movement/act has substance and discription that we use to 'know' who we are dealing with. If you are a plummer by trade, then you are known as a plummer, sudra. You discided. Sudra is managed by three higher varnas. You will render service for payment. The higher varnas will employ the sudra.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

Then others are consuted, ksatriya and brahman. Which 'you' might be. I do not know this.

 

 

Who appoints these 'others'? Who decides they are qualified?

 

 

If you notice in the above quote, the use of the words "naturally", and "tend". Those are indications that this is not an imposed system (as the current hereditary caste system is), but rather, comes about due to the natures of the persons in society.

 

I also feel it is to come naturally, that Murali Mohan Prabhu is correct and we should stop discussing how to make it happen and work on the sadhana bhakti as Anandi Prabhu is saying. Then it will come, and we will see ourselves and others accordingly. No one needs to lable the plumber a plumber, it will be common knowledge.

[brajeshwara das]

I think the fact no organized system has been imposed, from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada to present, should be a clue that this was not the way Guru intends it to be manifest. The 'natural' theory seems to be more inline and would justify why no other Gaudiya Math acharya has done so. Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada Himself could have laid out direct instructions how to do it but it seems no one has this available, so in its abscence it seems like speculation to say exactly what he intended.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

No, I don't see how I was awry, Prabhu. My flippantly-made point about renaming ISKCON has to do with *focus*. The focus is on serving Krishna via the Holy Name, Guru, and the Vaishnavas. It's about Krishna Consciousness.

 

I mean no offense, but your proposition that folks could be introduced to DVD *before* being introduced to Krishna is simply ludicrous.

 

From your own quotes of Srila Prabhupad, the recommended medicine is Krishna Nam, and, if the person is somewhat literate, reading Bhagavad Gita. That's where the whole journey starts.

 

For the typical sense-enjoyer who yet has no taste for Nama Sankirttan, how is a dry discussion of Varnashram going to be appealing?

 

Krishna is the all-attractive. Krishna is the harmonizing principle. Before any society can even begin to resemble DVD, there must be a lot of purification. Otherwise, folks artificially trying to adhere to DVD have the same chance of success as a neophyte Bhakta trying to impersonate a self-realized Acharya.

 

Flippant sometimes begets flippancy, but you decide to get rough on my gesture, OK so you are a bit of a ruffian, like to rough people up to get their attention? So do I .LOL

 

However, please remember you jumped in here saying.

 

"So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities."

 

 

And here your prejudice regarding the position being expounded here in regards to whether or not it is the artificial imposition of anything upon anyone really has no grounds in anything I have written for I assure you I fight against this wherever it is myself all the time.

 

Thus your presumption is a sign of something artificial that I need to deal with, and somehow get around if I want you to actually hear what I say, and thats not easy because the human tendency to presume under prejudice is a mercurial and flexible talent which fluidly adjusts to prevent something from entering the consciousness which might possibly be healthy for it, MISTAKING it for an OFFENDER and thus activating the immune system and DEFENDING against it.

 

Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not), and maybe we can see more clearly the connection between all the facts and evidence being posted, without fear of coersion, and see what fits.

 

For starters, you might want to be more broad minded, and thus specific in giving examples of what a "typical sense enjoyer" is, and furthermore how can you say that discussing Lord Krsna's very own Daivi Varnasrama system is DRY?

 

Anyway, please think about these things, I am past them already, and some of the insight and profound questions other people in this discussion are raising are inspiring me to end with you here.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

 

Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not),

 

It is very hard to have a conversation with someone that may be calling you an idiot.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

It is very hard to have a conversation with someone that may be calling you an idiot.

 

Only you know for sure. LOL, but I do have another thing to say to you about this below.

 

 

I think the fact no organized system has been imposed, from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada to present, should be a clue that this was not the way Guru intends it to be manifest. The 'natural' theory seems to be more inline and would justify why no other Gaudiya Math acharya has done so. Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada Himself could have laid out direct instructions how to do it but it seems no one has this available, so in its abscence it seems like speculation to say exactly what he intended.

 

It must be late at night, because now we are starting posts with the words "I think that ...." Ok, then one more for the speculators.

 

They never imposed anything. Of course they wouldn't want anything to manifest which was IMPOSED they aren't even capable of such a thing as maha siddhas.

 

But they plainly ordered everything I have posted as a quote. Whether this was a command to duty for any one person is between them and Srila Prabhupada. For some it is just dust in the wind, but I truly believe this is their loss, but to each their own. He plainly ordered to do it. If we were "tending" to do it so "naturally" then why see a deficit in us, and give instruction as remedy. Just think about what this implys please.

 

The line is crossed when someone preaches against the fact that this was an extensively thought out and documented order, and thus a desire, and that a person, a real live breathing loving humanly 2 armed formed person just like your own Guru Govinda was greatly desiring this to the point where he spent the last 3 years of his appearance here constantly propagandizing this agenda as you now well know. His emotion and his desire are plain, and how better to please the one you love than to execute on such?

 

And after participating in all these discussions you can say something like the next quote.

 

"Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada Himself could have laid out direct instructions how to do it but it seems no one has this available, so in its abscence it seems like speculation to say exactly what he intended."

 

It seems no one has this available? I gave you the source of a 400 page book with innumerable Prabhuada quotes on the subject, and told they were specific and detailed through conversations with the leading men.

 

How soon you forget. Please stop your contrarian preaching here because you are very misinformed on the subject as you may be beginning to realize.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[theist]

BD you seem to have focused only on half of what I said. I said one's respected siksa gutru could help one understand and see his psotion or that Supersoul may give the inteligence from within to show the bhakta how he could best work.

 

That is already known and acknowledged by everyone I think. You and Guest C seem to be advocating a third option which brajaswhara and others have been trying to get you to spell out but you DVD folks never respond to this simply question.

 

Brajeswhara has asked yet again and I echo that yet again. Other than by one's interaction with his siksa guru or from the Lord within just how is one to understand his varna?

 

Specifics please. Continuing to ignore this question is becoming rather telling.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Acharyas don't impose they order.

 

You follow or you dont.

 

All of Srila Prabhupada's direct and specific orders are available I already told you that. No need to speculate.

 

There already is Daivi Varnasrama. Guru has to show you how you fit in, because you have forgotton.

 

If you can read, this is how he can show you.

 

Thats all.