Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

BD you seem to have focused only on half of what I said. I said one's respected siksa gutru could help one understand and see his psotion or that Supersoul may give the inteligence from within to show the bhakta how he could best work.

 

That is already known and acknowledged by everyone I think. You and Guest C seem to be advocating a third option which brajaswhara and others have been trying to get you to spell out but you DVD folks never respond to this simply question.

 

Brajeswhara has asked yet again and I echo that yet again. Other than by one's interaction with his siksa guru or from the Lord within just how is one to understand his varna?

 

Specifics please. Continuing to ignore this question is becoming rather telling.

 

You know old friend, for a person who has rarely in my memory consciously acknowledge ignorance on a point when corrected, your innuendo of rigidness and ignorance on my part is expected I suppose, but never welcome.

 

I already described your answer in detail if you look over my posts it will be clear as a sunny day in Hawaii.

 

And only because I repeat how my Siksa Guru, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada instructs me in this regard, thus there is no "other than". Plain and simple, light and sweet.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

Please share with us the plan of approach to implement this system you said he laid out. If it is that clear please do so. That he wanted it to manifest there is no doubt, but the mechanism is what is in question. How to do it? Did he say how to do it? Not your ideas of what here said, but actually him saying 'do this, do that, this is the way.' Who decides who is who?

 

Someone wrote a book I have not read, I do know many can interpret things many ways and I won't have faith in that unless I read it, even then with the guidance of a Vaisnava I trust. So please share with us not selective quotes on the subject but actual facts that he said to 'do like this'. I myself am agreeing that it should manifest and it is the will of Guru, that would be great help to us all, but HOW? That I admit my opinions are opinions instead of trying to put my words in other's mouths, especially an Acharya, I don't see as reason for critique by you, who are taking opportunities to say people are idiots etc. without aswering questions directly. It is clear you have contempt for other's opinions that don't perfectly match your own. I wonder what Srila Prabhupada would say.

 

I am not preaching here, I am asking the questions 'who will decide, what was Guru's plan' and not getting real answers because you have none.

[Guest guest]

 

Who appoints these 'others'? Who decides they are qualified?

 

 

 

I also feel it is to come naturally, that Murali Mohan Prabhu is correct and we should stop discussing how to make it happen and work on the sadhana bhakti as Anandi Prabhu is saying. Then it will come, and we will see ourselves and others accordingly. No one needs to lable the plumber a plumber, it will be common knowledge.

 

HOW MUCH MORE NATURAL IS IT IF YOU ARE THE DOER. That's about as organic as it gets.

 

You and Murali are team? that's wonderful. Just remember it is nature that takes you to hell...

 

"There cannot be any peaceful life, because everyone is rogue and rascal, so there must be war. There must be punishment by nature. As soon as there is overpopulation"...Lecture SB 1.16.12 LA

 

“Now all your so-called rascal nationalism go to hell. You become a dog. Finish.” That is nature’s course. You have treated your life like cats and dogs. You did not take advantage of your human life. Now nature will give you, “All right, again you become cats and dogs.” Punar mushiko bhava. They do not know. They do not know the secret science of nature. You may be a very great leader, prime minister now. Next life you are going to be a dog in Scandinavia. (laughter) You see?"........Lecture SB 2.1.2 3/17/74

 

 

He might have taken his birth in a very rich family, respectable family. Because the mode of nature is working, voluntarily he has become hippie......lecture SB 5.6.3 11/25/76

 

 

“And those who are in tamasika, in the darkness, ignorance modes of material nature, they go down to the, down planetary system or animal life.” So this is an opportunity, this human form of life, to decide where you want to go. Are you going to hell or heaven or back to home, or back to Godhead? That you have to decide. This is human intelligence, not like working like cats and dogs and dying like cats and dogs. That is not human life. Human life is meant for to decide where you want to go next. By the evolutionary process you have come to this human form of life. Jalaja nava-lakshani sthavara laksha-vimsati. By going through so many, 8,400,000 species of life, you have got this human form of life. Now you decide where you’ll go. So where I have to go, how to go, there is that information in the sastra. Sastra-cakshushah. See through the sastra where you can go. And the master of the sastra, Krishna, is giving you personally instruction,.....Lecture SB 7.9.8 2/15/76

 

 

“There is no soul. There is no Supersoul. It is nature automatically becoming this.” These nonsense things are being pushed within the, this rubbish brain of the human society. They cannot explain. They cannot give right understanding. Still, they will say, “I am scientist. I am philosopher. I am this. I am that.” But your business... What is your business? Now, direct people wrongly, to go to hell......Lecture Brahma Samhita 11/9/68 LA

 

 

So that is also originally the individual soul's desire and as Supersoul the Lord is giving everyone the opportunity to go to heaven or to hell or to Vaikuntha if he so desires. For those who are hankering after material opportunities the Lord as Supersoul is giving them the opportunities to enjoy the material nature and the facility is being supplied by the material nature.....letter Jagadisa 7/9/70

 

 

 

 

It is all about free will. You will act at any second and we will know who you are and what you should do, I manage. You have used YOUR free will to do one way or another.

 

That, there in Santa Cruz, you are experiencing good use of free will is laudable. I look in at your web page every now and then to look at pictures of my old sankirtan budies. I know many of your elders, mention my name to Sanatani didi and Srutasrava das. And Jagadananda das. And Pusta Krsna was in the room in Detroit temple when Srila Prabhupada said I was Ksatriya. He will not remember, he was looking out a window from behind Prabhupada, in his own world. And left soon after.

 

Tell them I'm at it again with the DVD preaching to institute now. Manage society, 4 varnas and 4 asramas. I have known Sanatani from the first day I became a thorn in the side of the then cheater TP, Abhirama, servant to Tamal.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

 

PS. If anyone has a suggestion about the syntax of my name please tell me the right way to have a suffix.

[brajeshwara das]

The bottom line question for me is this: do you seek

 

1. an official system where someone received the designation 'brahman' etc from an official body
   
2. a system where a designation is self-selected after much reflection, and then recognized by an official body.
   
3. a system with no official recognition but some method of cultivating awareness of your varna.
   
4. Another option?

I just want to get beyond the concept and talk about implementation. That is the tricky bit, where things can go wrong. If you have an idea or agree with one above, please share it.

[Guest guest]

 

The bottom line question for me is this: do you seek

 

1. an official system where someone received the designation 'brahman' etc from an official body
   
2. a system where a designation is self-selected after much reflection, and then recognized by an official body.
   
3. a system with no official recognition but some method of cultivating awareness of your varna.
   
4. Another option?

I just want to get beyond the concept and talk about implementation. That is the tricky bit, where things can go wrong. If you have an idea or agree with one above, please share it.

 

 

I would say number 2, with a shake of NO. 3

 

CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

 

You and Murali are team? that's wonderful. Just remember it is nature that takes you to hell...

It was a quote of Srila Swami Maharaj that Murali Mohan Prabhu quoted Nature as you so joyfully mock out of context:

 

Madhya 8.5.58: The brahmanas are the intellectuals who can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They are always engaged in the cultivation of knowledge. It does not matter whether one is born in India or outside India. Those who are naturally very heroic and who tend to rule over others are called ksatriyas. Those who tend to produce food by agricultural methods, protect cows and other animals and engage in trade are called vaisyas, or merchants. Those who are not sufficiently intelligent to be brahmanas, ksatriyas or vaisyas are required to serve a master and are called sudras.

Me an my false ego are definitely a team but at least I'm aware of that. Murali Mohan Prabhu is on his own.

[theist]

 

 

BG 3.1: Arjuna said: O Janardana, O Kesava, why do You want to engage me in this ghastly warfare, if You think that intelligence is better than fruitive work?

BG 3.2: My intelligence is bewildered by Your equivocal instructions. Therefore, please tell me decisively which will be most beneficial for me.

BG 3.3: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who try to realize the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service.

BG 3.4: Not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection.

BG 3.5: Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

BG 3.6: One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender.

BG 3.7: On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna consciousness] without attachment, he is by far superior.

BG 3.8: Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not working. One cannot even maintain one's physical body without work.

BG 3.9: Work done as a sacrifice for Vishnu has to be performed, otherwise work causes bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kunti, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage.

BG 3.10: In the beginning of creation, the Lord of all creatures sent forth generations of men and demigods, along with sacrifices for Vishnu, and blessed them by saying, "Be thou happy by this yajna [sacrifice] because its performance will bestow upon you everything desirable for living happily and achieving liberation."

BG 3.11: The demigods, being pleased by sacrifices, will also please you, and thus, by cooperation between men and demigods, prosperity will reign for all.

BG 3.12: In charge of the various necessities of life, the demigods, being satisfied by the performance of yajna [sacrifice], will supply all necessities to you. But he who enjoys such gifts without offering them to the demigods in return is certainly a thief.

BG 3.13: The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sins because they eat food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin.

BG 3.14: All living bodies subsist on food grains, which are produced from rains. Rains are produced by performance of yajna [sacrifice], and yajna is born of prescribed duties.

BG 3.15: Regulated activities are prescribed in the Vedas, and the Vedas are directly manifested from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Consequently the all-pervading Transcendence is eternally situated in acts of sacrifice.

BG 3.16: My dear Arjuna, one who does not follow in human life the cycle of sacrifice thus established by the Vedas certainly leads a life full of sin. Living only for the satisfaction of the senses, such a person lives in vain.

BG 3.17: But for one who takes pleasure in the self, whose human life is one of self-realization, and who is satisfied in the self only, fully satiated -- for him there is no duty.

BG 3.18: A self-realized man has no purpose to fulfill in the discharge of his prescribed duties, nor has he any reason not to perform such work. Nor has he any need to depend on any other living being.

BG 3.19: Therefore, without being attached to the fruits of activities, one should act as a matter of duty, for by working without attachment one attains the Supreme.

BG 3.20: Kings such as Janaka attained perfection solely by performance of prescribed duties. Therefore, just for the sake of educating the people in general, you should perform your work.

BG 3.21: Whatever action a great man performs, common men follow. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.

BG 3.22: O son of Pritha, there is no work prescribed for Me within all the three planetary systems. Nor am I in want of anything, nor have I a need to obtain anything -- and yet I am engaged in prescribed duties.

BG 3.23: For if I ever failed to engage in carefully performing prescribed duties, O Partha, certainly all men would follow My path.

BG 3.24: If I did not perform prescribed duties, all these worlds would be put to ruination. I would be the cause of creating unwanted population, and I would thereby destroy the peace of all living beings.

BG 3.25: As the ignorant perform their duties with attachment to results, the learned may similarly act, but without attachment, for the sake of leading people on the right path.

BG 3.26: So as not to disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit of devotion, he should engage them in all sorts of activities [for the gradual development of Krishna consciousness].

BG 3.27: The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.

BG 3.28: One who is in knowledge of the Absolute Truth, O mighty-armed, does not engage himself in the senses and sense gratification, knowing well the differences between work in devotion and work for fruitive results.

BG 3.29: Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become attached. But the wise should not unsettle them, although these duties are inferior due to the performers' lack of knowledge.

BG 3.30: Therefore, O Arjuna, surrendering all your works unto Me, with full knowledge of Me, without desires for profit, with no claims to proprietorship, and free from lethargy, fight.

BG 3.31: Those persons who execute their duties according to My injunctions and who follow this teaching faithfully, without envy, become free from the bondage of fruitive actions.

BG 3.32: But those who, out of envy, disregard these teachings and do not follow them are to be considered bereft of all knowledge, befooled, and ruined in their endeavors for perfection.

BG 3.33: Even a man of knowledge acts according to his own nature, for everyone follows the nature he has acquired from the three modes. What can repression accomplish?

BG 3.34: There are principles to regulate attachment and aversion pertaining to the senses and their objects. One should not come under the control of such attachment and aversion, because they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization.

BG 3.35: It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

BG 3.36: Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrishni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force?

BG 3.37: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material mode of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring sinful enemy of this world.

BG 3.38: As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror is covered by dust, or as the embryo is covered by the womb, the living entity is similarly covered by different degrees of this lust.

BG 3.39: Thus the wise living entity's pure consciousness becomes covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire.

BG 3.40: The senses, the mind and the intelligence are the sitting places of this lust. Through them lust covers the real knowledge of the living entity and bewilders him.

BG 3.41: Therefore, O Arjuna, best of the Bharatas, in the very beginning curb this great symbol of sin [lust] by regulating the senses, and slay this destroyer of knowledge and self-realization.

BG 3.42: The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he [the soul] is even higher than the intelligence.

BG 3.43: Thus knowing oneself to be transcendental to the material senses, mind and intelligence, O mighty-armed Arjuna, one should steady the mind by deliberate spiritual intelligence [Krishna consciousness] and thus -- by spiritual strength -- conquer this insatiable enemy known as lust.

--------

BG 3.8: Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not working. One cannot even maintain one's physical body without work.

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gita was spoken into the context of a society that adhered to strict varna ashrama principles. Prescribed duties were understood. Presently this is not the case and certainly in the west prescribed duties are nonexistent.

 

 

 

So we see that devotees often have a hard time trying to juggle material responsibilities with their acquired nature under the modes of nature. Brahmanas end up having to take jobs in IT or something. Ksyatriya types end up working for vaisyas who control the big so-called ksyatriyas via corporate money and get sent into the demons wars. It's a mess.

 

Devotees have to take this situation as austerity brought on by past karma, try to carve out a simple life amongst it all and cultivate Krsna consciousness. And that may entail brahmana's sweeping the common streets but devotional service is not dependent on the varna ashrama system. It has it's value but it is not indespensible. It should not be over emphasised.

[brajeshwara das]

 

I would say number 2, with a shake of NO. 3

 

CB-R

 

Would the official body have to accept, or could they reject the decision of the devotee?

[bhaktatraveler]

 

BD you seem to have focused only on half of what I said. I said one's respected siksa gutru could help one understand and see his psotion or that Supersoul may give the inteligence from within to show the bhakta how he could best work.

 

That is already known and acknowledged by everyone I think. You and Guest C seem to be advocating a third option which brajaswhara and others have been trying to get you to spell out but you DVD folks never respond to this simply question.

 

Brajeswhara has asked yet again and I echo that yet again. Other than by one's interaction with his siksa guru or from the Lord within just how is one to understand his varna?

 

Specifics please. Continuing to ignore this question is becoming rather telling.

 

A brahman will know, a ksatriya will know, usually a vaisya will know as will as a sudra. Because these are the 'qualified' varnas. Now this is assuming honesty on the part of the practitioner. Then known brahman and ksatriya will test to make sure. The test is observance of action, if you go around picking your nose and eating it, then you are not a brahman.

 

CB-R

[bhaktachris]

I am sorry, i just came into this thread. I have not read all through it. I don't have a lot of time for this. I believe in living it , not speculating about it. But from what i can tell, Prabhupada said that there are no brahmanas in this world anymore. And that the Cow is the center of Varnashrama.

 

So we have Prabhupada as our Brahmana, and we Protect Cows as per our Brahmana's instructions.

 

The Cow fertilizes the soil, we grow in that fertile soil.

 

Seems like a perfect Varnashrama Project to me!

 

Without the Cow in the center, there is no Varnashrama. All the Varnas depend on the Cow. Atleast that is how our Brahmana see it.

[brajeshwara das]

 

he test is observance of action, if you go around picking your nose and eating it, then you are not a brahman.

 

 

Oh well, I'm not a brahman

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Would the official body have to accept, or could they reject the decision of the devotee?

 

 

 

Acceptance or rejection should be on valid/honest/tested/scripturally based/doubble tested grounds, one way or another. Maybe it should be higher varna or maybe lower.

 

By the way in a conversation in 75' Prabhupada says about marriage that varna come before marriage. Varna is about 12-14 yrs.

 

CB-R

[bija]

 

Oh well, I'm not a brahman quote by brajeshwara dasa

[bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Bk Chris,

 

Always like to hear from the cowhead boys and I'm glade you have such a wonderful opportunity to live your varna. I also know, met on line and visited and anther cowhead boy near Buffalo, NY. in a small village called Angelic. Wonderful person, nice family, great cows, small place.

 

Cows are to DVD, as factories are to the consumer ecconomy life now in the greater world. But remember DVD is 4 vanas and 4 asramas. If you have no natural person or imeadiate dying need, then that is another thing, practical must be there. And this is all pactice, we do what we can.

 

I like every thing else, but if you reject the ksatriya varna you are rejecting Prabhupada.

 

Every one is right in a particular perspective that DVD will happen spontainiously. Once acceptance is there, of all of it. Not selectivly.

 

I to after so many yrs of testing and looking for an embodied brahman have forever surrendered to Srila Prabhupada as the only quentessential brahman first and formost for me. But I'm still on the look out for brahmans, they are need. I do not reject their right to have varna, with all it's implications, just because of my personal beliefs. That's not right!

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[theist]

 

HOW MUCH MORE NATURAL IS IT IF YOU ARE THE DOER. That's about as organic as it gets.

 

If it is so organic why do you need to be on a crusade to get everyone to see it your way.

 

The approach I outlined is as organic as it gets...guru or Krsna within. Surely I am one of the idiots you spoke of because I don't hear you speaking clearly and concisely on whatever your point is.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

If it is so organic why do you need to be on a crusade to get everyone to see it your way.

 

The approach I outlined is as organic as it gets...guru or Krsna within. Surely I am one of the idiots you spoke of because I don't hear you speaking clearly and concisely on whatever your point is.

 

Your right, I'm not very good preacher type. But I did not address you with the above quote. So now I have little idea of what you intrest is.

 

CB-R

[anadi]

Originally Posted by anadi

Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assist his disciple in making conscious that loving relation.

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

Replay

Sriman Anandi, you seem to have a tendency to define Bhakti to suit the moment.

This is a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya, for in this case you are pronouncing a SMARTA position which is roundly rejected by the Bona Fide Acharyas of the Gaudiya line.

Dear Bhakta Devarsi, dandavat pranam,

• Sriman and Prabhu should be used only in relation to the Bhagavan Tattva, not in realation to Jiva Tattva.
  
• Bhakti is always the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee. If you want I can add the quality of that relation, and as you well know this is a serving relation. …Why? …Because of love divine (serving because of love). So, as long as one had not come yet to the platform of love divine, how can one speak about bhakti? And yet we can speak about bhakti. … What kind of bhakti… Sadhana bhakti, as delineated in Bhakti Rasa-amrita Sindhu.
  
• The definition of bhakti is not a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya. The definition of bhakti for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas has been clearly stated by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

anyabhilashita shunyam / jnana karmady anavritam

anukulyena krishnanu / shilanam bhaktir uttama

Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

It must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma.

And now comes SB Narayan M ... following "Prabhupada" and says that we have to follow (daivi) varna-ashram dharma, although in the beginning of his preaching in West, was against it and preached Shuddha Bhakti.

<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> gives a hint to Arjuna, that he should follow his khsatria dharma on the battle field, and not lament saying he would like to become a monk, by giving an example:

 

Kings such as Janaka attained perfection solely by performance of karma (prescribed duties). Therefore, just for the sake of educating the people in general, you should perform your karma. (Bg. 3.20)

 

In this connection there is a wide spread confusion regarding the meaning of karma.

 

Bhagavan, Sri Krishna explains the meaning of karma :

 

karmaṇo hy api boddhavyaḿ / boddhavyaḿ ca vikarmaṇaḥ

akarmaṇaś ca boddhavyaḿ / gahanā karmaṇo gatiḥ (Bhagavat-gita 4.17)

 

Karma, vikarma and akarma should be distinctively understood, because the karmic principle is profound.

 

1.Vikarma - acting against the prescribed duty , leads to a miserable destiny and destin-ation.

 

2. Akarma, not acting according the prescribed duty in varna-ashrama, can be

- akarma – rejecting varna-ashrama dharma due to ignorance, which is vikarma.

- akarma - rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in activities for the attainment of mukti (salvation - liberation from the bondage of this illusory material energy - maya)

- akarma rejecting varna-ashrama dharma and engaging in devotional activities (bhakti) - for the attainment of divine love prema

 

3. Karma, is the action prescribed according <st1:city><st1:place>varNa</st1:place></st1:city> – social class and asram – religious order, which leads to the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord Hari.

 

Nowadays karma is understood as general activity, which doesn’t corespond the original meaning of the vedic word.

 

karmaṇy akarma yaḥ paśyed / akarmaṇi ca karma yaḥ

sa buddhimān manuṣyeṣu / sa yuktaḥ kṛtsna-karma-kṛt (Bhagavat-gita 4.18 )

 

"That person endowed with discrimination power (intelligence) buddhimAn, sees inaction in karma and action in akarma.

That person is linked (with the Lord/ spiritual world), although she acts (in this world)."

 

The meaning is that for a transcendentaly situated person, situated beyond the modes of material nature, karma (action prescribed according varNa – social class and asram – religious order) is akarma, in the sense that karma is not related to the eternal nature of the soul: shuddha bhakti – loving service to The All Attractive,

and such a person sees akarma – not following the prescribed duties of varNa-asharam system, which are due to the false indentification of the soul with temporary denominations of the material body, as real activity, when it is related to the real identity of the soul – a loving servant, friend, parent, or erotic lover of the Lord- which encompasses the nitya dharma – the real nature of the soul.

 

 

Can you bring evidence for the idea that my writings come from a SMARTA ideology?

Please also define SMARTA according Gaudiya Vaishnava teachings.

[bhaktachris]

 

Hare Krsna Bk Chris,

 

Always like to hear from the cowhead boys and I'm glade you have such a wonderful opportunity to live your varna. I also know, met on line and visited and anther cowhead boy near Buffalo, NY. in a small village called Angelic. Wonderful person, nice family, great cows, small place.

 

Cows are to DVD, as factories are to the consumer ecconomy life now in the greater world. But remember DVD is 4 vanas and 4 asramas. If you have no natural person or imeadiate dying need, then that is another thing, practical must be there. And this is all pactice, we do what we can.

 

I like every thing else, but if you reject the ksatriya varna you are rejecting Prabhupada.

 

Every one is right in a particular perspective that DVD will happen spontainiously. Once acceptance is there, of all of it. Not selectivly.

 

I to after so many yrs of testing and looking for an embodied brahman have forever surrendered to Srila Prabhupada as the only quentessential brahman first and formost for me. But I'm still on the look out for brahmans, they are need. I do not reject their right to have varna, with all it's implications, just because of my personal beliefs. That's not right!

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

 

thanks for the nice reply. i guess some of us are quite mixed really. i have been a gun toting gun firing guy since i was 6 and my dad put the gun in my hand and helped me pull the trigger. i carry a conceiled weapon often, used to in mangala arotik when there were too many crazies, doing the crazy thing. so maybe i have the kaitri;ya thing going, and i care for cows, and have had my own corporation for 30 years, so maybe i am a vaisya, i know i am a sudra and melecha by some of my activities, including picking my nose for treats, but i have also kept clean and honest while serving the deity, so maybe sometimes i have the brahmana thing going a small bit.

 

But i do know that Prabhupada taught us that there is no Varnashrama without the Cow. That is where it starts, that is where it stays, and that is where it continues, without the cow/ox, there is no Varnashrama. Atleast not a Daivi type, since we are supposed to be followers of a Cow Herd Boy.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

thanks for the nice reply. i guess some of us are quite mixed really. i have been a gun toting gun firing guy since i was 6 and my dad put the gun in my hand and helped me pull the trigger. i carry a conceiled weapon often, used to in mangala arotik when there were too many crazies, doing the crazy thing. so maybe i have the kaitri;ya thing going, and i care for cows, and have had my own corporation for 30 years, so maybe i am a vaisya, i know i am a sudra and melecha by some of my activities, including picking my nose for treats, but i have also kept clean and honest while serving the deity, so maybe sometimes i have the brahmana thing going a small bit.

 

But i do know that Prabhupada taught us that there is no Varnashrama without the Cow. That is where it starts, that is where it stays, and that is where it continues, without the cow/ox, there is no Varnashrama. Atleast not a Daivi type, since we are supposed to be followers of a Cow Herd Boy.

 

Hare Krsna Bk Chris

 

I would think it quite 'natural' to be of mixed lot in your situation. But which varna atracks you most? Or the varna that you feel most proficiant at? Don't mind, it is just talk. And do your constituants concur?

 

As for cows you have my ear, like I said we need to replace factories with cows as the production supplier in DVD. Be that as it may, we shouldn't forget Krsna was also a Ksatriya and after Matura, had pastime as such.

 

The initial instruction from Srila Prabhupada was given when most all of the devotees were in cities. So we should not feel no organization of varna and asrama can happen until more farms appear. Farm life will be domanent, but there will always be some cities. That would be couter productive, we must start from a 'be here now' understanding. It would be imposible for thousands of devotees to run for the hills. Unless you know of millions sit around waiting for DVD? LOL Then......it would be easy, 'if you build it, they will come'

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Hare Krsna Theist das

 

One step at a time, just as any journey is taken.

 

Step one is to introduce DVD idealogy. Brahman must/should preach this incessantly. I am not the preacher type by first choise, I do because I'm forced by circumstances. When we rid the atmosphere of the poison vani aversion, brainwashed rejection, than we will experience renewed enthusiasm to act.

 

As action is freely offered/agree opon, then we have ingredients/consensus. With knowledge of the ingrediances as to the who's and what's of the community to surrender, then we have a field of activities. From willing activites surrendered to the cause of DVD the Ksatirya's duty can commence and he will lead.

 

No ksatriya can tell what the 'plan' is unless he knows what he is working with. So many variables to take into account that it's 'fantasy' to demand an answer more than I have given.

 

First though, preaching at the elemental/atomic level by brahamns will need to be done, from those whom claim brahminical standard. No one listens to me/ksatriyas. If brahman refuses to do so, I/ksatriya will not let him claim that varna in my air, I will call very loudly BS. I/ksatriya wants to manage/protect only. Brahman will teach/preach, I will manage, vaisya will produce, sudra will help other and develop crafts and other things that are this varna.

 

All whom demand magic are just in the way. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. And any plan beyond the first preaching step, has to be based on speculation. So please in this mater, I would like to stay out of speculation and only deal with tangibles. On line is only good for a small exchange of ideas, only. Nothing tangible happens on line. I live in Alachua lets get together in person, then we will start. People, not air waves.

 

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

 

Theist,

 

You ask then do not respond when answered. First, you respond to my post here. Then I will again blow up your next strawman. Careful surfer boy, your ego and aversion/rejection are showing all over the place. Try for more support instead of arguements based on things that should be understood and taken for granted in the company of devotees. That Krsna, Supersoul and Guru are intregral in the devotees heart is taken for granted. It is a deversionary, strawman.

 

Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Dear Anadi,

 

Thank you so much for correcting my use of the prefix Sriman. If indeed you are correct. You gave no scriptural backing for what you said, but it may be true so I guess I will have to look it up myself. I like to learn new things.

 

And as for whatever else you may have wrote, I am sorry, but you immediately started to define Bhakti narrowly as Suddha Bhakti, and there again was immediately my proof that you have a smarta mentality, and you should just reread what I wrote to you again, and then go back to school, read the Bhagavad gita as it is, 1972 macmillan edition, with no rascal changes.

 

You simply need to get to the point where you can see that the person who responds in even the smallest way to a preaching Acarya and hears and chants abit, then goes back to their occupation in the modes is engaged in BHAKTI. Then maybe we could have a conversation in the future. Otherwise your mind is lost swimming in an ocean of intellectual concepts, while your heart seems blinded by smarta attitude.

 

This is especially telling when you say things like Srila Prabhupada was preaching against DVD when he first came to the west. That shows your lack of knowledge of his preaching and what he wrote. My god, he gave direct instructions in his Dehli Bhagavatam first canto from the early 60's that DVD was part of the Krsna Consciounsess movement.

 

But I know you will recover quickly.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

 

 

Originally Posted by anadi<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Bhakti is not related to any Institution.

Bhakti is the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee, and guru assist his disciple in making conscious that loving relation.

When an Institution came into being, that is not because of bhakti, but because of material managerial considerations, and politics will come into life.

 

Replay

Sriman Anandi, you seem to have a tendency to define Bhakti to suit the moment.

This is a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya, for in this case you are pronouncing a SMARTA position which is roundly rejected by the Bona Fide Acharyas of the Gaudiya line.

Dear Bhakta Devarsi, dandavat pranam,

 

• Sriman and Prabhu should be used only in relation to the Bhagavan Tattva, not in realation to Jiva Tattva.
  
• Bhakti is always the relation between the Worshipable Deity and the devotee. If you want I can add the quality of that relation, and as you well know this is a serving relation. …Why? …Because of love divine (serving because of love). So, as long as one had not come yet to the platform of love divine, how can one speak about bhakti? And yet we can speak about bhakti. … What kind of bhakti… Sadhana bhakti, as delineated in Bhakti Rasa-amrita Sindhu.
  
• The definition of bhakti is not a delicate matter left to the liberated Acharya. The definition of bhakti for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas has been clearly stated by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

anyabhilashita shunyam / jnana karmady anavritam

anukulyena krishnanu / shilanam bhaktir uttama

Uttama Bhakti – pure divine loving service consists of activities –shilanam which are favorable anukulyena – give pleasure in the highest degree to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.

It must be devoid shunyam of material desires anyabhilash, knowledge of the Absolutness of the Lord jnana, and karma – activities according varna-ashram dharma.

 

 

And now comes SB Narayan M ... following "Prabhupada" and says that we have to follow (daivi) varna-ashram dharma, although in the beginning of his preaching in West, was against it and preached Shuddha Bhakti.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Please share with us the plan of approach to implement this system you said he laid out. If it is that clear please do so. That he wanted it to manifest there is no doubt, but the mechanism is what is in question. How to do it? Did he say how to do it? Not your ideas of what here said, but actually him saying 'do this, do that, this is the way.' Who decides who is who?

 

Someone wrote a book I have not read, I do know many can interpret things many ways and I won't have faith in that unless I read it, even then with the guidance of a Vaisnava I trust. So please share with us not selective quotes on the subject but actual facts that he said to 'do like this'. I myself am agreeing that it should manifest and it is the will of Guru, that would be great help to us all, but HOW? That I admit my opinions are opinions instead of trying to put my words in other's mouths, especially an Acharya, I don't see as reason for critique by you, who are taking opportunities to say people are idiots etc. without aswering questions directly. It is clear you have contempt for other's opinions that don't perfectly match your own. I wonder what Srila Prabhupada would say.

 

I am not preaching here, I am asking the questions 'who will decide, what was Guru's plan' and not getting real answers because you have none.

 

Dear Brajeshwara dasa,

 

I am now certain you are just skimming my posts.

 

The book I referred to you was and still is mostly a compilation of Srila Prabhupada quotes from conversations, lectures and a few from his books.

 

And I specifically instructed to answer this type of inquiry from you previously, that The Gita and Bhagavatam are CHOCK full of general and direct instructions and details on DVD. So much so that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

 

And that includes the person who after all that comes to the conclusion, "I like what I read but I am not sure who I am exactly or how to proceed."

 

That person would be the TYPE of Sudra who would need constant instruction and direction from higher varnas, and if truly sincere, humble, and thus submissive, will coincidently at that time find their good self amongst the company of devotees of higher varna who will see that sudra as someone who can help them make devotional advancement if they can engage them properly and will do so promptly.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Dear Anadi,

 

Thank you so much for correcting my use of the prefix Sriman. If indeed you are correct. You gave no scriptural backing for what you said, but it may be true so I guess I will have to look it up myself. I like to learn new things.

 

And as for whatever else you may have wrote, I am sorry, but you immediately started to define Bhakti narrowly as Suddha Bhakti, and there again was immediately my proof that you have a smarta mentality, and you should just reread what I wrote to you again, and then go back to school, read the Bhagavad gita as it is, 1972 macmillan edition, with no rascal changes.

 

You simply need to get to the point where you can see that the person who responds in even the smallest way to a preaching Acarya and hears and chants abit, then goes back to their occupation in the modes is engaged in BHAKTI. Then maybe we could have a conversation in the future. Otherwise your mind is lost swimming in an ocean of intellectual concepts, while your heart seems blinded by smarta attitude.

 

This is especially telling when you say things like Srila Prabhupada was preaching against DVD when he first came to the west. That shows your lack of knowledge of his preaching and what he wrote. My god, he gave direct instructions in his Dehli Bhagavatam first canto from the early 60's that DVD was part of the Krsna Consciounsess movement.

 

But I know you will recover quickly.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

 

 

 

 

Thanks Bk Devarsi, well said. I was just ignoring him. I know his Guru's mind and you will be hard pressed to reach the Radha Kunda Babji crowd.

 

CB-R

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Thanks Bk Devarsi, well said. I was just ignoring him. I know his Guru's mind and you will be hard pressed to reach the Radha Kunda Babji crowd.

 

CB-R

 

Hare Krsna CB-R

 

I was starting to get that idea a while ago, it just took me a while to ground it down.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

 

BMD

[theist]

 

Theist,

 

You ask then do not respond when answered. First, you respond to my post here. Then I will again blow up your next strawman. Careful surfer boy, your ego and aversion/rejection are showing all over the place. Try for more support instead of arguements based on things that should be understood and taken for granted in the company of devotees. That Krsna, Supersoul and Guru are intregral in the devotees heart is taken for granted. It is a deversionary, strawman.

 

"Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air?"

<table class="applicationcontainer managementview" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="content">

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

Your response was no answer. Just more of the same vagueries. No specifics which is why many of us here have no idea what you two are trying to say beyond the obvious benefit of a DVD system which is not disputed.

 

Then you say Guru and Supersoul are diversionary. The diversion is clearly what you are engaged in. All that is needed is the holy name. You want to inspire your Isckon friends? That is only to be done by hearing and chanting under the protective wings of proper advance vaisnavas. Not on imagining yourself and a couple buddies to be disciples of Dronacarya come again to rescue the mission. Clearly you are a fool on a head trip and I am done talking to you.

 

The surfer boy crack was really weird since I have never been on a board in my life. I would have loved growing up surfing as a kid but alas, my karma was not that good. I have done some body surfering though @ Maakapu. Great fun and a great workout.

 

I have no doubt my false ego shows as this is the material world and all here are bound by ahankara. What's new? BTW what keeps you hanging around the material field if not your own false ego? Or do you remain out of your causeless mercy to re-establish DVD? Awesome task the Lord has given you.

 

"Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air? "

 

You ask for a name. Do you think a name is the actual person or something. Things are not real until they have a material tag, right? Such is the thinking of those condtoned by the world of names. We need to grow beyond it. Talking to a temporary name is the same as talking to air. Are you asking if I really exist?

 

Bye bye big warrior or however you think of yourself.