Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[Shakti-Fan]

 

And now comes SB Narayan M ... following "Prabhupada" and says that we have to follow (daivi) varna-ashram dharma, although in the beginning of his preaching in West, was against it and preached Shuddha Bhakti.

<st1:place></st1:place>

Srila Narayana Maharaja has always organized the devotees under him as brahmacharies, sannyasis, vanaprasthas and grhastas. At the time of diksa he has always given the sacred thread to males. These things are all daiva-varnasrama dharma as established by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and are followed by all of those claiming to represent him. The babaji class all opposed these revolutionary changes and aligned themselves with the smartas to fight against and try to suppress Srila Saraswati Thakur's reforms and preaching mission. It was also Srila Saraswati Thakur who began to refer to his disciples as prabhu and began referring to them in letters as Sriman and Sripad depending on their age. These things are all historical facts and well known. You are trying to play the NM card to justify your attacks against both Srila Prabhupadas. Divide and conquer. But the devotees on this forum especially the so-called DVD proponents may not be so aware of all these issues and the history but they naturally see through as to your real intention.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Your response was no answer. Just more of the same vagueries. No specifics which is why many of us here have no idea what you two are trying to say beyond the obvious benefit of a DVD system which is not disputed.

 

Then you say Guru and Supersoul are diversionary. The diversion is clearly what you are engaged in. All that is needed is the holy name. You want to inspire your Isckon friends? That is only to be done by hearing and chanting under the protective wings of proper advance vaisnavas. Not on imagining yourself and a couple buddies to be disciples of Dronacarya come again to rescue the mission. Clearly you are a fool on a head trip and I am done talking to you.

 

The surfer boy crack was really weird since I have never been on a board in my life. I would have loved growing up surfing as a kid but alas, my karma was not that good. I have done some body surfering though @ Maakapu. Great fun and a great workout.

 

I have no doubt my false ego shows as this is the material world and all here are bound by ahankara. What's new? BTW what keeps you hanging around the material field if not your own false ego? Or do you remain out of your causeless mercy to re-establish DVD? Awesome task the Lord has given you.

 

"Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air? "

 

You ask for a name. Do you think a name is the actual person or something. Things are not real until they have a material tag, right? Such is the thinking of those condtoned by the world of names. We need to grow beyond it. Talking to a temporary name is the same as talking to air. Are you asking if I really exist?

 

Bye bye big warrior or however you think of yourself.

 

Bye bye, Hare Krsna

 

CB-R

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja has always organized the devotees under him as brahmacharies, sannyasis, vanaprasthas and grhastas. At the time of diksa he has always given the sacred thread to males. These things are all daiva-varnasrama dharma as established by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and are followed by all of those claiming to represent him. The babaji class all opposed these revolutionary changes and aligned themselves with the smartas to fight against and try to suppress Srila Saraswati Thakur's reforms and preaching mission. It was also Srila Saraswati Thakur who began to refer to his disciples as prabhu and began referring to them in letters as Sriman and Sripad depending on their age. These things are all historical facts and well known. You are trying to play the NM card to justify your attacks against both Srila Prabhupadas. Divide and conquer. But the devotees on this forum especially the so-called DVD proponents may not be so aware of all these issues and the history but they naturally see through as to your real intention.

 

Here, here Shakti-fan. Though Anandi is right about NM previous rejection of over all implimentation of DVD. I do commend NM's coming around finally, better late than never. Though, better never late is another thing.

 

You are also right about asrama recognition by NM. And you are VERY right of the mood of Anadi to beat up on our sampradaya from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur on, automatic disqualification is THIS Gaudiya circle.

 

I would live at the feet of NM, life time after life time, before I went back to those Babji's asramas. And kill my little, frail creepper.

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

 

Your response was no answer. Just more of the same vagueries. No specifics which is why many of us here have no idea what you two are trying to say beyond the obvious benefit of a DVD system which is not disputed.

 

Then you say Guru and Supersoul are diversionary. The diversion is clearly what you are engaged in. All that is needed is the holy name. You want to inspire your Isckon friends? That is only to be done by hearing and chanting under the protective wings of proper advance vaisnavas. Not on imagining yourself and a couple buddies to be disciples of Dronacarya come again to rescue the mission. Clearly you are a fool on a head trip and I am done talking to you.

 

The surfer boy crack was really weird since I have never been on a board in my life. I would have loved growing up surfing as a kid but alas, my karma was not that good. I have done some body surfering though @ Maakapu. Great fun and a great workout.

 

I have no doubt my false ego shows as this is the material world and all here are bound by ahankara. What's new? BTW what keeps you hanging around the material field if not your own false ego? Or do you remain out of your causeless mercy to re-establish DVD? Awesome task the Lord has given you.

 

"Do you have a real name? Or am I taking to air? "

 

You ask for a name. Do you think a name is the actual person or something. Things are not real until they have a material tag, right? Such is the thinking of those condtoned by the world of names. We need to grow beyond it. Talking to a temporary name is the same as talking to air. Are you asking if I really exist?

 

Bye bye big warrior or however you think of yourself.

 

I have to agree with you theist, I don't want to say it really but it should be said because this is a danger to us all. The desire for pratishta is very dangerous and we can see that cracks like 'surfer boy' and 'idiot' are meant to demean and put down, and therefore elevate the poster. But it does exactly the opposite, it degrades their arguments and lessens the respect for their position. It reveals their position actually.

 

Please forgive my offenses, all glories to the devotees everywhere.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I have to agree with you theist, I don't want to say it really but it should be said because this is a danger to us all. The desire for pratishta is very dangerous and we can see that cracks like 'surfer boy' and 'idiot' are meant to demean and put down, and therefore elevate the poster. But it does exactly the opposite, it degrades their arguments and lessens the respect for their position. It reveals their position actually.

 

Please forgive my offenses, all glories to the devotees everywhere.

 

In YOUR mind it degrades the arguement, because you are using the posters character to defeat the order of Guru. That I'm not a preacher is AGAIN ADMITED.

 

So you big brahmans stand up and PREACH as guru has said to do instead of looking for my flaws, which are endless and a full time job. You haven't the time. Stay on the topic, idea exchange and if something I have said is veg then point it out in detail, not blanket rejection. Chiding from on high.

 

You keep asking what is next, I keep saying the preaching to convince compliance. What else are you looking for? Your ask for me to cook subji but you give me no ingredience!! I see this as forced speculation from you.

 

There is no other meaningful answer to a speculative question.

 

As for the 'surfer boy' crack, it is just that, a poke/crack. Do you have a problem with reverce chiding? I have to take it but not give? I never said, to my knowledge, that Theist(?) was an 'idiot' did I? So now you have added a 'crack'.

 

So where to go?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-Raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

In YOUR mind it degrades the arguement, because you are using the posters character to defeat the order of Guru. That I'm not a preacher is AGAIN ADMITED.

 

 

Not to defeat Guru's order, but the poster's comprehension of the order, which all should do when hearing from others. "Does this prabhu understand correctly or not?" Otherwise we may be misguided.

 

I'm not looking for your flaws Prabhu. Just seeing if you have anything more to offer on this besides vague statements like "I keep saying the preaching to convince compliance." What is compliance? What did Srila Swami Maharaj say would be compliance? If you want a system in place where someone gets a 'nametag' so all will know their varna and then assigned duties accordingly, please describe how that would work and who would determine the varna. That's all. Otherwise what is the point in discussing this further? All agree it would be a good thing just again HOW?

 

And making blanket statements that some of the people in the discussion are idiots is offensive to me because we should try and see others as devotees. Not idiots. And it stifles the conversation and turns into false-ego bickering.

 

And my comment about pratishta applies to me most of all, lest I get carried away in thinking I am right and others are all wrong. My points are flawed and I'm just working out my understanding of DVD here in this forum, if I have fundamental misunderstandings I hope to adjust them. The pratistha comment wasn't directed at anyone specifically but if anyone feels it applies to them, as it applies to me personally, I hope it is taken into consideration in further posts.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Not to defeat Guru's order, but the poster's comprehension of the order, which all should do when hearing from others. "Does this prabhu understand correctly or not?" Otherwise we may be misguided.

 

I'm not looking for your flaws Prabhu. Just seeing if you have anything more to offer on this besides vague statements like "I keep saying the preaching to convince compliance." What is compliance? What did Srila Swami Maharaj say would be compliance? If you want a system in place where someone gets a 'nametag' so all will know their varna and then assigned duties accordingly, please describe how that would work and who would determine the varna. That's all. Otherwise what is the point in discussing this further? All agree it would be a good thing just again HOW?

 

And making blanket statements that some of the people in the discussion are idiots is offensive to me because we should try and see others as devotees. Not idiots. And it stifles the conversation and turns into false-ego bickering.

 

And my comment about pratishta applies to me most of all, lest I get carried away in thinking I am right and others are all wrong. My points are flawed and I'm just working out my understanding of DVD here in this forum, if I have fundamental misunderstandings I hope to adjust them. The pratistha comment wasn't directed at anyone specifically but if anyone feels it applies to them, as it applies to me personally, I hope it is taken into consideration in further posts.

 

 

I must have missed where 'I' said 'idiot' first. Did I? Please show the post, so I can be aware.

 

YOU tell me what compliance is. I have an idea, but like the repeated question of 'who' discides varna, you miss any point I make and sound like I've said nothing. Rejecting practiclly even the fact that I posted a responce.

 

How many times will we go over 'who' determins varna? It isn't answered?

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

What did Srila Swami Maharaj say would be compliance? If you want a system in place where someone gets a 'nametag' so all will know their varna and then assigned duties accordingly, please describe how that would work and who would determine the varna. That's all. Otherwise what is the point in discussing this further? All agree it would be a good thing just again HOW?

 

 

Dear Brajeshwara dasa,

 

Why do you continually ignore my answer to this question that I have repeated about 3 times for you? Are you to good for me to even acknowledge the points I made, even if you disagree at least if you have some valid position then maybe I could learn something, but I all hear are the sounds of silence, and then you asking the same exact question over and over again.

 

ys

 

BD

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna

 

In truth I really came here wondering if any of the seemingly apparent brahminical intellects are rid of smartism/impersonalism enough to even recognize a ksyatria, from a kingly type to an aspiring page, and also understand their particular symptoms as a Large subclass of the human race, understand their value and necessity for the Krsna Conscious Sankirtana Mission as a whole including the aspect of restoring DVD.

 

So far, I see some signs of life, but the vitals seem weak, though the spirit is willing.

 

So much talking on lofty subjects, but then to be so ill-informed, un-informed, and speculative as to the details of HOW DVD was to be implemented amongst us as per the painstakingly detailed

instructions of the most recent Mahabhagavat Shaktavesa Avatara to breeze through town.

 

Where is the merciful extension of brahminical council to the local Ksyatria, and the reciprocated mercy of such Ksyatria's grace in all its forms?

 

If one can't answer that question, with particulars, they have not even graduated from Brahmin Gurukula, and are at best a brahmacari practicing his scholarship and debating techniques, and at worst a pompous, pretentious pontificator living in one of Maya's many Ivory towers.

 

Such has been the symptom of so many in Iskcon, even before Srila Prabhupada left, and now such artificial Brahminism has become a twisted artform.

 

Pretty soon anyone living in a place like America, who is NOT off the material platform but THINKS they are will be begging someone like Caturbahu dasa and his merry men for shelter from the big bad athiestic Facist Social communists who are going to get their crack at all the fakers in the world, and all those who have refused to release their dependence on their non-vedic system of social deterioration and disease.

 

Any day now folks.

 

How will Krsna protect you if you refuse to protect the rest of the "lower" varnas by knowing who you are, who they are, and how to engage them immediately in the devotional service of the Lord in a way that you and they can proclaim with conviction "Here stands a Bhakta, engaged in mixed

but real devotion, may the Lord bless him or her with advancement."

 

Perhaps these questions are more important to be answering than how I or Caturbahu dasa are going to decide who is who, because frankly we already have but it is not for us to impose, just to inspire, amidst our faults and in our better moments, hopefully inspire others to see it for themselves and REALIZE who they are on the material platform.

 

For if we speak the truth as we occasionally "admit" to our faults and material propensities after so many years of discipleship, then we should take a step forward from there and understand that material postion fully as it relates to the Krsna Consciousness movement. Then will save us

from denial, overestimating ourselves, underestimating others, and keep us perfectly aligned with our true and current level of Krsna Consciousness as per the authority of the Mahabhagavat Acharya Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada in this purport

 

BG 3.35

 

 

Everyone has to cleanse his heart by a gradual process, not abruptly. However, when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krsna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master.

In that complete stage of Krsna consciousness, the ksatriya may act as a brahmana, or a brahmana may act as aksatriya. In the transcendental stage, the distinctions of the material world do not apply. For example, Visvamitra was originally a ksatriya, but later on he acted as a brahmana, whereas Parasurama was a brahmana, but later on he acted as a

ksatriya. Being transcendentally situated, they could do so; but as long as one is on the material platform, he must perform his duties according to the modes of material nature. At the same time, he must have a full sense of Krsna Consciousness.

 

All Glories to the Brahmanas in training.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

First re-establish large farm communities that are self-sufficient and with cow protection. Then DVD will develop from there.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

First re-establish large farm communities that are self-sufficient and with cow protection. Then DVD will develop from there.

 

Would be doable with money. I know where 5 sq. miles of land is in the Southeast, one big semi square piece. Room enough for 10,000 devotees. $100,000,000 should do the trick for purchace and development. LOL

 

But no money, rebuild the surrendering prosess in the now current city temples. When Prabhupada gave the DVD instructions, there were no farms. To speak of.

 

I am very good at street sankirtan management and would, with the help of city vaisya types, get money for books. Book distribution is trade, vaisya. Here in Alachua are some of the biggest and best ladies collectors on the planet. But they are missmanaged. Give me 6 and you will have money.

 

I had a talk at the Charter school once about DVD and Sukada dasi was listening. She is my old friend from first days together in 74, Miami. When I got to the part of book distribution and collecting, she giggled like a 13 yr old school girl and jumped up and down waving her hand saying 'that's me, that's me.' I did not have to impose anything on her. She knew herself well enough to be excited when her service was spoke about. But she is in that rejectable school, mismanaged.

 

Ask Srutasrava who always won the transendental compition on Saturday in New Dwarka? Ask Mayapura Sasi if 78 is still the biggest year for collections and books distributed in LA history. Ask Sanatani if the ladies were ever treated as anything less then decorum stipulates.

 

In our centers, now.

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[brajeshwara das]

 

I must have missed where 'I' said 'idiot' first. Did I?

 

Sorry Prabhu, it was Bhakta Devarsi, please accept my appologies.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Dear Brajeshwara dasa,

 

Why do you continually ignore my answer to this question that I have repeated about 3 times for you? Are you to good for me to even acknowledge the points I made, even if you disagree at least if you have some valid position then maybe I could learn something, but I all hear are the sounds of silence, and then you asking the same exact question over and over again.

 

ys

 

BD

 

Please accept my dandavats and appologies Prabhu. You are right and I was unfair.

 

 

And I specifically instructed to answer this type of inquiry from you previously, that The Gita and Bhagavatam are CHOCK full of general and direct instructions and details on DVD. So much so that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

 

And that includes the person who after all that comes to the conclusion, "I like what I read but I am not sure who I am exactly or how to proceed."

 

That person would be the TYPE of Sudra who would need constant instruction and direction from higher varnas, and if truly sincere, humble, and thus submissive, will coincidently at that time find their good self amongst the company of devotees of higher varna who will see that sudra as someone who can help them make devotional advancement if they can engage them properly and will do so promptly.

 

I'll look for instruction from the sastra, thanks.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Please accept my dandavats and appologies Prabhu. You are right and I was unfair.

 

 

 

I'll look for instruction from the sastra, thanks.

 

 

Thank you sir. It gives me pause.

 

Who has quoted the second quote? And are you in agreement or have I misunderstood?

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

[Guest guest]

Though I doubt we can implement a Varnashrama system in the present age of Kali yuga (just a personal opinion), I have to agree with <B>Caturbahu prabhu & Devarshi Das</B>. They have answered your questions about how one is chosen to be in a particular varna several times. Devarshi Das also provided a link to a 400 page book about this subject. I fail to understand why you're asking the same question over & over.

 

 

Not to defeat Guru's order, but the poster's comprehension of the order, which all should do when hearing from others. "Does this prabhu understand correctly or not?" Otherwise we may be misguided.

 

I'm not looking for your flaws Prabhu. Just seeing if you have anything more to offer on this besides vague statements like "I keep saying the preaching to convince compliance." What is compliance? What did Srila Swami Maharaj say would be compliance? If you want a system in place where someone gets a 'nametag' so all will know their varna and then assigned duties accordingly, please describe how that would work and who would determine the varna. That's all. Otherwise what is the point in discussing this further? All agree it would be a good thing just again HOW?

 

And making blanket statements that some of the people in the discussion are idiots is offensive to me because we should try and see others as devotees. Not idiots. And it stifles the conversation and turns into false-ego bickering.

 

And my comment about pratishta applies to me most of all, lest I get carried away in thinking I am right and others are all wrong. My points are flawed and I'm just working out my understanding of DVD here in this forum, if I have fundamental misunderstandings I hope to adjust them. The pratistha comment wasn't directed at anyone specifically but if anyone feels it applies to them, as it applies to me personally, I hope it is taken into consideration in further posts.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Sorry Prabhu, it was Bhakta Devarsi, please accept my appologies.

 

For the record, my sideswipe was as follows.

 

"Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not),"

 

And since power mongering is an idiotic thing to do, I thought I might trigger a thought in those who were introspective enough to possibly notice this and think "hey I don't want to be idiotic", and give up the idea of usurping power and just being in their own position.

 

of course Brajeshwara dasa was most sensitive to this comment and made this finding of fault known by his own subtle fault finding post where he later posted

 

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Bhakta Devarsi

Let's just pretend for a moment that this discussion is not populated with a bunch of power mongering idiots, (which mostly it is not),

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

It is very hard to have a conversation with someone that may be calling you an idiot.

 

 

 

To which I replied,

 

 

Only you know for sure. LOL, but I do have another thing to say to you about this below.

 

 

 

And proceeded to indicate where he was doing some speculating within our discussion.

 

Next Brajeshware dasa brought up this problem he had with my original statement.

 

 

"And making blanket statements that some of the people in the discussion are idiots is offensive to me because we should try and see others as devotees. Not idiots. And it stifles the conversation and turns into false-ego bickering."

 

 

What had already begun to stifle the conversation is that some people refused to stick to the topic, and began all sorts of diversionary techniques including questioning of character, and skimming posts and reading only to garner ammuntition for objection instead of taking the whole into context.

 

That is offensive to discussion and debate at such a very profound and basic level. It is a technique used by someone wishing to hide a basic insecurity of philosophical foundation that they stand on thinking there is some power there. That is not conducive to anything but further power mongering. So I that I thought I would speak up about that tendency I saw a person or two exhibiting to see if I could flush them out, knowing they would probably use it as a lever to further cast doubt on the substance of what I was saying.

 

Multiple people can feel completely filled with righteous and creative power in the same discussion as long as they all know who they are.

Those who are only there for a little mental gymnastics stick out like a sore thumb when core truths are being examined intelligently, there is a venue for that, but this topic probably isn't it, considering MOST of the company here.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

 

Thank you sir. It gives me pause.

 

Who has quoted the second quote? And are you in agreement or have I misunderstood?

 

Hare Krsna, CB-R

That was you, Prabhu. And I am in agreement if I understand you correctly (in your words): that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

 

 

The bottom line question for me is this: do you seek

1. an official system where someone received the designation 'brahman' etc from an official body
   
2. a system where a designation is self-selected after much reflection, and then recognized by an official body.
   
3. a system with no official recognition but some method of cultivating awareness of your varna.
   
4. Another option?

I feel #2 with a dash of #3 (per Bhakti-raja ) is best to determine the varna, along with a system of organization for voluntary service to make sure everyone feels engaged in their particular varna.

 

My main concern and reason for all my arguing is the potential for material exploitation of sincere devotees by insincere pseudo-devotees in higher varna positions. We all know this has happened much in the past and pseudo-DVD could enable abuse. I hope you understand.

[brajeshwara das]

 

That is offensive to discussion and debate at such a very profound and basic level. It is a technique used by someone wishing to hide a basic insecurity of philosophical foundation that they stand on thinking there is some power there. That is not conducive to anything but further power mongering. So I that I thought I would speak up about that tendency I saw a person or two exhibiting to see if I could flush them out, knowing they would probably use it as a lever to further cast doubt on the substance of what I was saying.

 

Sorry Prabhu but I disagree, I think saying there are idiots among the participants of a conversation is not respectful to the conversation and all involved. Spin that how you like, but I stand by that.

[brajeshwara das]

 

I fail to understand why you're asking the same question over & over.

 

Because I'm not taking the time to read everything enough, multitasking while at work, which is irresponsible and not respectful of the subject at hand. I sincerely appologize.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Wow!!! The signal-to-noise ratio in this discussion shot up didn't it? Most of the reasonable discussion can be found on the first few pages (before I got involved to try to make a slight philosophical point).

 

While some claim to have too little time to look up quotes and continue to post rambling attacks on other posters, I actually had to leave work (where I sneak in a little Audarya time) to pick up kids make dinner, etc.

 

I'm afraid that what's keeping me in this discussion at this point is ego (now that I've been personally attacked)...I have so far to go.

 

 

Flippant sometimes begets flippancy, but you decide to get rough on my gesture, OK so you are a bit of a ruffian, like to rough people up to get their attention? So do I .LOL

 

However, please remember you jumped in here saying.

 

"So, to say we need to artificially introduce DVD to further Bhakti is to have reversed priorities."

Just how exactly does this statement of mine make me a ruffian? I did not intend this as a personal attack. By reasonable measure it's not a personal attack, it's a criticism of an *idea*. That it was taken personally and used as an excuse to begin diatribes and personal attacks should be an indication of the character of those who chose to be so offended.

 

If someone is claiming to be a Ksatriya, should they also not be equipoised? Being equipoised under all circumstances is one of the qualities of the Vaishnava, is it not? So, if, in a debate, where our ideas are being attacked (not us personally), we lose our cool and begin calling folks "ruffians" and other names, does this not indicate a lack of qualification to be a Ksatriya? If someone is going to wield the power of a mantra that is many times more powerful than conventional atomic weapons, I would hope they would be able to maintain their composure on a web discussion board.

 

 

And here your prejudice regarding the position being expounded here in regards to whether or not it is the artificial imposition of anything upon anyone really has no grounds in anything I have written for I assure you I fight against this wherever it is myself all the time.

 

Great!!! and if you read my posts, I don't believe I ever claimed anyone was trying to artificially impose DVD. I said that to do so would (*would*) be a case of reversed priorities. If you choose to see this as an accusation, that's your business and is further indicative of your character.

 

 

Thus your presumption is a sign of something artificial that I need to deal with, and somehow get around if I want you to actually hear what I say, and thats not easy because the human tendency to presume under prejudice is a mercurial and flexible talent which fluidly adjusts to prevent something from entering the consciousness which might possibly be healthy for it, MISTAKING it for an OFFENDER and thus activating the immune system and DEFENDING against it.

 

Now, just how much Nyquil are you on?!?!? See, now I'm resorting to personal attacks! (naughty Murali!!!)

 

 

For starters, you might want to be more broad minded, and thus specific in giving examples of what a "typical sense enjoyer" is, and furthermore how can you say that discussing Lord Krsna's very own Daivi Varnasrama system is DRY?

OK, I'll give myself as an example of the typical sense enjoyer. Is that specific enough for you? Would the term "Joe Six-Pack" been a better choice to use? Typical Sense Enjoyer: works like a dog all day so he can eat his hamburger (or veggie-burger in my case) at night and watch reality TV shows (conspiracy DVDs in my case) all evening, with nary a God-conscious thought (unless a relative just left their body, in which case we pull out some well-worn plattitudes). The typical sense-enjoyer may even go to Church on Sunday (the Ashram in my case) and sit through the sermon. However, during the sermon (which just might be Srutasrava Prabhu speaking with great conviction about the glories of Guru and Gauranga), the typical sense-enjoyer's mind is preoccupied with the (material?) beauty of the female congregants.

 

Specific enough? Can you now see how they typical sense-enjoyer might find a discussion of Krishna's own DVD to be dry (no presumptions made on my part as to whether such a discussion actually *is* dry--after all taste is a personal matter), just as I, personally, find discussions of Krishna's own Baseball to be dry?

 

 

Anyway, please think about these things, I am past them already, and some of the insight and profound questions other people in this discussion are raising are inspiring me to end with you here.

Merciful Prabhu!! Thank your for your though-inspiring words! Thank you for taking the time to inspire me,thus. End with me as you like, for I aspire to serve Krishna in your blessed heart.

 

While others have mentioned, let me mention again: whatever you may think of Srila Prabhupad and his instructions, WE WERE UNABLE TO FOLLOW SO MANY OF HIS SIMPLEST INSTRUCTIONS WHILE HIS PASTIMES WERE MANIFEST ON THIS PLANET. What makes you or anyone think they can do so now without the constant association of the Vaishnavas and the guidance of the pure devotees?!?!

 

In a separate post, someone mentioned my beloved Guru, Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj. While I can certainly not claim to be his representative in any manner, shape and form, and while I hope my conduct does not reflect poorly on him, *he* has had more direct association with Srila A. C. Bhaktivendanta Swami Prabhupad than 90% or more of ACBSP's disciples. He lived with SP for some time during SP's house-holder pastimes and was, in fact, the first public distributor of Back to Godhead magazine. If I trust anyone to know if or how DVD is to be implemented, it is my Gurudev. If I trust anyone to reveal the wishes of my siksa Guru Srila Prabhupad (from whose hands I had the fortune of accepting Maha cookies as a toddler) to me, it is my Gurudev and his representatives.

 

Now, my Gurudeva has never made the smallest hint that he is the rightful acharya of ISKCON, though he is clearly qualified. Rather, he, with utmost humility, is carrying out the order of his Gurudev, Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj and inspiring all those who take shelter of Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math. For this, I have never heard anyone in ISKCON speak of him with anything but respect.

 

But I digress (I suppose a digression in glorification of Guru is to be excused?).

 

Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

My main concern and reason for all my arguing is the potential for material exploitation of sincere devotees by insincere pseudo-devotees in higher varna positions. We all know this has happened much in the past and pseudo-DVD could enable abuse. I hope you understand.

 

Brajeshwara Prabhu succinctly sums up the point I was trying to make initially.

 

Abuse!!! It's about abuse. What use is the medicine if it is tainted by poison? If there is impurity, there will be infection, abcess, disease.

 

Do we really need to catalog the inummerable times noble ideas have been corrupted at the hands of the insincere?!?

 

I don't wish to discourage the DVD-fans out there, merely urge caution.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

That was you, Prabhu. And I am in agreement if I understand you correctly (in your words): that just be reading and hearing, then observing yourself introspectively and the symptoms of others, we will all know what to do.

) is best to determine the varna, along with a system of organization for voluntary service to make sure everyone feels engaged in their particular varna.

 

My main concern and reason for all my arguing is the potential for material exploitation of sincere devotees by insincere pseudo-devotees in higher varna positions. We all know this has happened much in the past and pseudo-DVD could enable abuse. I hope you understand.

 

 

 

YES, YES, YES, you do get it!!!! Yes, we are to always be vigilant, do not give up free will 100% to a conditioned soul. 'As they serender unto Me, I reward them accordingly' even Krsna is constantly testing a thing, but being ready, willing and able to respond in kind though. So we need to be fexible, vigilent and willing too.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Because I'm not taking the time to read everything enough, multitasking while at work, which is irresponsible and not respectful of the subject at hand. I sincerely appologize.

 

Exactly, you nit pick at my oblique jab at the people who take spiritual discussions lightly and are thus making all sorts of offenses and taking truly "idiotic" positions, and fault find me on that, while I am admitting I am doing it.

 

But compared to the rest of the diversions and obfuscations and power trips which go on on such public forums and in topics like this, My point is that my statement was a regretably necessary technique, a means to a good end.

 

And you blow it up to be something you can't stand. Meanwhile indulging in your own nonsense and admitting it.

 

Sorry, maybe idiot is too strong a word. I am very passionate. Of course one's choice to focus on that and discount everything else being spoken is both of our losses, but how else to get people to realize?

 

And you were NOT one of the people who to my mind play the full on idiot role. But you sure seem to have your own difficulty hanging in here, so I wish you good fortune.

 

Hare Krsna

 

ys

 

BD

[brajeshwara das]

 

but how else to get people to realize?

 

Prabhu, just please consider how you choose to express yourself, because though I am certainly offensive you definitely could use a drop of honey in your posts. Note Murali Mohan Prabhu's post above, you may not agree but he is right. 'Idiot' is a symptom of a problem, not the problem. Please take what I say seriously, as others can see what you can't.

 

How to get people to realize? Through humility, tolerance, and giving honor to others. Without seeking any honor for ourselves.

 

Sorry, I should try and follow my Gurudeva more closely:

 

We are what doing? Arrangement, making arrangement for Sankirtan. If there is no Sankirtan there is no result. And Sankirtan will be without offense. And first offense is satam ninda namnah param aparadham vitanute that meant sadhu ninda we not with... abuse anyone. Who is sadhu we do not know. Then we will be protected with that thought. I shall be good. You are good or bad, that is another thing. But first I shall be good, and with that knowledge if I shall proceed, I shall get benefit.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Dear Murali,

 

you said.

 

 

Just how exactly does this statement of mine make me a ruffian? I did not intend this as a personal attack. By reasonable measure it's not a personal attack, it's a criticism of an *idea*. That it was taken personally and used as an excuse to begin diatribes and personal attacks should be an indication of the character of those who chose to be so offended.

 

If someone is claiming to be a Ksatriya, should they also not be equipoised? Being equipoised under all circumstances is one of the qualities of the Vaishnava, is it not? So, if, in a debate, where our ideas are being attacked (not us personally), we lose our cool and begin calling folks "ruffians" and other names, does this not indicate a lack of qualification to be a Ksatriya? If someone is going to wield the power of a mantra that is many times more powerful than conventional atomic weapons, I would hope they would be able to maintain their composure on a web discussion board.

 

 

 

Your first words here, before your artificial comment were.

 

"After all, Varnashram Dharma is not a prescription for how things *ought* to be, it is a description of how things *are* in a balanced, God-conscious society."

 

Just to refresh your memory, again, about how "Mr. Equiposed I gotta run to my staff meeting but lemme just jump in and throw around some unsubstantiated speculation into a spiritual discussion" decides to introduce himself. And I quickly dismantled that specualtion by pointing to how Srila Prabhupada himself prescribed this as how things ought to be in his society in so many words.

 

You want some honey? Don't come in and speculate in the MIDDLE of spiritual discussions where some people are gravely serious about getting straight with their eternal dharma straightened out and asking pertinent questions regarding such.

 

Don't be so overly sensitive to a playful smack by a brotherly Ksyatria type.

 

Then you will feel the sweetness that is already there. If that is what you really want.

 

Hare Krsna