Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

[bhaktatraveler]

When addressing Bk Devarsi as ksatriya are you sure you are addressing the right person? I'm the big mounth Ksatriya. Your responce to him for some reason seems to not fit the person's posts. Thats just me.

 

I'm the one yesterday that said to ask your elders about me, did you?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

I'm the big mounth Ksatriya.

 

You are both big-mouthed Ksatriyas

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Prabhu, just please consider how you choose to express yourself, because though I am certainly offensive you definitely could use a drop of honey in your posts. Note Murali Mohan Prabhu's post above, you may not agree but he is right. 'Idiot' is a symptom of a problem, not the problem. Please take what I say seriously, as others can see what you can't.

 

How to get people to realize? Through humility, tolerance, and giving honor to others. Without seeking any honor for ourselves.

 

Sorry, I should try and follow my Gurudeva more closely:

 

We are what doing? Arrangement, making arrangement for Sankirtan. If there is no Sankirtan there is no result. And Sankirtan will be without offense. And first offense is satam ninda namnah param aparadham vitanute that meant sadhu ninda we not with... abuse anyone. Who is sadhu we do not know. Then we will be protected with that thought. I shall be good. You are good or bad, that is another thing. But first I shall be good, and with that knowledge if I shall proceed, I shall get benefit.

 

I was talking about getting a person to realize that he should probably go somewhere else for a while, meantime the people who are serious keep together and continue the discussion.

 

I am not speaking of anyone who I recognize as actually eager to learn and advance ok. Deal with it. People like that there is no polite way to say it, and if there is they don't listen anyway. If anything my fault is for being at all caring about the dynamic on an internet forum where anyone, serious or not can just throw there opinions around.

 

But the discussion has deep merit, and the contrarians and speculators who plunge in with whimsy do not seem to merit gentle consideration but I feel more like swatting at a mosquito that is buzzing around my head.

 

Sorry, you guys just don't deeply undertand the Ksyatria dharm, but I love you anyway.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

 

You are both big-mouthed Ksatriyas

 

Thank you prabhu, I do my best.

 

CB-r

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

You are both big-mouthed Ksatriyas

 

My nickname in Junior league football was motor mouth.

 

It seems like a big mouth because I am fortunate enough to engage my passion in following orders, and apparently seem to be very spontaneous and outspoken in doing so, while those claiming Vaisnava status and advanced knowledge and Supersoul connections beyond the need to follow instructions closely are simply so mentally and emotionally emaciated that it is hard for them to handle the fact that someone else is actually more spontaneously alive than they are, and at the same time merely an advanced neophyte at best with a decent lexicon and lots of passion.

 

But as CB pointed out, LOLLOLLOL Oh, if you saw us in person, I may be a motor mouth, but He has the MAHA MAW between us, deep and bellowing and depending on your inner intentions in life, it could be pretty f'ing scary.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna All prabhus

 

Is how varna is seen, exhibited, organized, manifest and so on understood well enough to go on to an other aspect? If not let us have sum well thought out reasonalble questions brought up for discussion.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

My nickname in Junior league football was motor mouth.

 

It seems like a big mouth because I am fortunate enough to engage my passion in following orders, and apparently seem to be very spontaneous and outspoken in doing so, while those claiming Vaisnava status and advanced knowledge and Supersoul connections beyond the need to follow instructions closely are simply so mentally and emotionally emaciated that it is hard for them to handle the fact that someone else is actually more spontaneously alive than they are, and at the same time merely an advanced neophyte at best with a decent lexicon and lots of passion.

 

But as CB pointed out, LOLLOLLOL Oh, if you saw us in person, I may be a motor mouth, but He has the MAHA MAW between us, deep and bellowing and depending on your inner intentions in life, it could be pretty f'ing scary.

 

Hare Krsna

 

And you are darned humble too:P

[brajeshwara das]

ok, in Srimad Bhagavatam purports, Srila Swami Maharaj often says 'like a woman or sudhra'. Can you speak of the role of women in the varna system and where they fit in?

 

Thanks.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Thank you prabhu, I do my best.

 

CB-r

Sorry Prabhus to be so impertinent, but I see little evidence of the presence of any Ksatriyas in this discussion (you cannot deny that you are a Brahmana, Brajeshwara Prabhu). Is a Vaishnava Ksatriya not one who remains equipoised under any circumstances?

 

Karandhar Prabhu's brother Keshava comes to mind when I think of contemporary Ksatriyas. While being a highly trained martial artist who could, no doubt kill anyone in this discussion with a single blow, I have never seen Keshava Prabhu lose his composure. He has always remained patient, calm, and gentlemanly in my (limited) vision.

 

Is it not safe to say that all in this discussion are but spiritual toddlers (of course, I cannot say this definitively as I have no position)? If we cannot, as Prabhu reminds us, follow "tinad api sunichena..." and be humble, tolerant and give honor to others, there is no question of DVD. We cannot run until we can walk.

 

I claim no authority, or qualification. The only thing I have claimed to be in this discussion is a sense-enjoyer. Let me now claim to be a mlecca and an offender to the Vaishnavas. Still, I have been blessed with more good fortune than I could earn in a million life-times.

 

Srila Prabhupad gave so much instruction in such a short period of time. The intensity with which he distributed the mercy of Chaitanyadev leaves all in awe. We toddlers cannot hope to follow his way-beyond-PhD. theses without patient, loving instruction.

 

Gauranga!!!!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Hare Krsna All prabhus

 

Is how varna is seen, exhibited, organized, manifest and so on understood well enough to go on to an other aspect? If not let us have sum well thought out reasonalble questions brought up for discussion.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

 

Sure, let's talk particle physics while we're at it (so, the name-calling part is over then?).

 

Anyways, my apologies for taking up so much bandwidth in this public discussion (if you wanted a private discussion, go have a private discussion, but there is no need to tell me to go away and think). Kindly *do* go back to a nice, philosophical discussion on pertinent matters.

 

I'll slink back into my dungeon and view with wonder your great insights. The very slight point I wished to make about DVD being a by-product of KC and not the source of it has been made, embraced, rebuked, etc.

 

Please honor me with your chastisement if you so desire, or ignore me as the contemptible dog that I am.

 

Govinda!!!! Govinda!!! Govinda!!!

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Sorry Prabhus to be so impertinent, but I see little evidence of the presence of any Ksatriyas in this discussion (you cannot deny that you are a Brahmana, Brajeshwara Prabhu). Is a Vaishnava Ksatriya not one who remains equipoised under any circumstances?

 

Karandhar Prabhu's brother Keshava comes to mind when I think of contemporary Ksatriyas. While being a highly trained martial artist who could, no doubt kill anyone in this discussion with a single blow, I have never seen Keshava Prabhu lose his composure. He has always remained patient, calm, and gentlemanly in my (limited) vision.

 

Is it not safe to say that all in this discussion are but spiritual toddlers (of course, I cannot say this definitively as I have no position)? If we cannot, as Prabhu reminds us, follow "tinad api sunichena..." and be humble, tolerant and give honor to others, there is no question of DVD. We cannot run until we can walk.

 

I claim no authority, or qualification. The only thing I have claimed to be in this discussion is a sense-enjoyer. Let me now claim to be a mlecca and an offender to the Vaishnavas. Still, I have been blessed with more good fortune than I could earn in a million life-times.

 

Srila Prabhupad gave so much instruction in such a short period of time. The intensity with which he distributed the mercy of Chaitanyadev leaves all in awe. We toddlers cannot hope to follow his way-beyond-PhD. theses without patient, loving instruction.

 

Gauranga!!!!

 

I have been in one rumble side by side with Kesava das. He has good ability. But he lacks intelegence for fine discrimination. He can not tell a right thing from a wrong thing and always in the old days was unable to see clearly who was who. Good, bad, or the other. More sudra to the ksatriya, like a guard or soldier.

 

Raksana from LA is an other example in the same vein, as he told me face to face, 'I am not a ksatriya, just a street fighter' Neither has he management ablilities. I out managed Raksana in 4 hours and replaced him as Sankirtan Central manager. My first day out of the Army back in LA. He, nor Kesava have recquisit inteligence.

 

I see the biggest thing is while you were all playing at being brahmans, I was doing the same as ksatriya. I have seen very little evidence of good understanding of this varna. So you will excuse me if I listen to Prabhupada's take and not you.

 

Think of a 'father' in greater scale and responsibility and that's just rudimentry. Fighting like we see the in the discriptions of ksatriyas in our books it is part, not all of the varna. Your missing the intellect. To dumb to know what to do at any given time, is not ksatriya.

 

No one is really lossing it here, it is all just interactive TV. We are just trying to make good use of a bad thing. Don't take it so serious in such a way as to assume any vaisnava aparadha is going on just because disagrement is there. Just trying to work out the high spots. No love has been lost on my part at least. This is no place to demand varna recognition nor is it good to fane a pretence of varna determination, other than what little we write each other.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Sure, let's talk particle physics while we're at it (so, the name-calling part is over then?).

 

Anyways, my apologies for taking up so much bandwidth in this public discussion (if you wanted a private discussion, go have a private discussion, but there is no need to tell me to go away and think). Kindly *do* go back to a nice, philosophical discussion on pertinent matters.

 

I'll slink back into my dungeon and view with wonder your great insights. The very slight point I wished to make about DVD being a by-product of KC and not the source of it has been made, embraced, rebuked, etc.

 

Please honor me with your chastisement if you so desire, or ignore me as the contemptible dog that I am.

 

Govinda!!!! Govinda!!! Govinda!!!

 

I'm not sure if you are joking or frustrated, or? I would like to tread softly but am at a loss.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

I'm not sure if you are joking or frustrated, or? I would like to tread softly but am at a loss.

 

CB-r

Why are you at a loss? I'm at a loss that you are at a loss , it was pretty clear.

 

Basically: (paraphrasing) I'l let you get back to discussing the finer points of DVD, I made my point good or bad, please forgive any offense, I am insignificant.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

ok, in Srimad Bhagavatam purports, Srila Swami Maharaj often says 'like a woman or sudhra'. Can you speak of the role of women in the varna system and where they fit in?

 

Thanks.

 

 

What would be the context, in more detail?

 

I can only say as Srila Prabhupada says, is there a more particular item? Like schooling?

 

No varnasrama college for women. This can be explain numerous ways. With and without a REAL functioning community to support Prabhupada's conclusion.

 

No freedom for either, needs to be now. Women are to be protected by a man, father, husband, brother, son, or some male family menber. I'm sure you have many comments:) so I will wait for you to prompt.

 

Childrens part is to grow up God conscious and educated.

 

This is just to start going into detail, by your choise. You choose where to go deeper.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Why are you at a loss? I'm at a loss that you are at a loss , it was pretty clear.

 

Basically: (paraphrasing) I'l let you get back to discussing the finer points of DVD, I made my point good or bad, please forgive any offense, I am insignificant.

 

If I assume wrong then i'm an ass. Best to ask first, be safe.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

What is the role of women in the varnashram system?

[bhaktatraveler]

 

What is the role of women in the varnashram system?

 

More specific, to broad.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

More specific, to broad.

 

CB-r

 

If someone asked you what is Krsna Consciousness, would you say 'more specific, too broad'?

 

What is the role of women in the varnashram system? Can anyone else answer?

[brajeshwara das]

I ask it this was because this is the way it will be asked by someone coming into contact with you 'in the field'. If you are working to establish the varnashram system, you better know the answer. It doesn't need to be too specific, but it has to be clear, concise and accurate.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I ask it this was because this is the way it will be asked by someone coming into contact with you 'in the field'. If you are working to establish the varnashram system, you better know the answer. It doesn't need to be too specific, but it has to be clear, concise and accurate.

 

Is using such hypothetically imagined scenarios a true way to guage what Caturbahu das' capacity for intelligently answering such a question is?

 

We are not "in the field". That context, the person's inner nature and other subtleties about their personality, their body movement, their level of interest reflecting in their eyes, the horns from the near fender bender a block away that make you pause your conversation, that is all intangible in your questioning so broad a topic in a hypothetical way over the internet.

 

In other words, as CB often points out this medium has vast limitations and here we see one, better for sifting out hard facts of history, who said what and where, etc.

 

As for the "role of women in Varnasrama, one could write a book on it. As a matter of fact in a way someone has. It is called the Srimad Bhagavatam by A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami.

 

Like I have been suggested for those truly interested in the material, and not just trying to set up Caturbahu dasa to look less knowledgable than he is, just read the books, and observe life unfold around you, and apply the conceptual knowledge from the books (jnana) to what you observe and then you will realize (vijnana) the truth about it.

 

And of course living among other devotees who devote some time to understanding this particular purpose of the Krsna Consciousness Movement can only accelerate this process and bring more pleasure to Srila Prabhupada. That is living in the field.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

I'm not trying to set anyone up It is a simple question. How do I explain it concisely to someone? What is a woman's role in varnashrama?

 

So here are some more just to get you started:

 

Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

If outside, why?

What responsibilities do they have?

What is the difference from a man's roles?

 

I don't know how you guys actually think my question is bad. It is simple and honest and if that is a curveball for you then good luck.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Is using such hypothetically imagined scenarios a true way to guage what Caturbahu das' capacity for intelligently answering such a question is?

 

We are not "in the field". That context, the person's inner nature and other subtleties about their personality, their body movement, their level of interest reflecting in their eyes, the horns from the near fender bender a block away that make you pause your conversation, that is all intangible in your questioning so broad a topic in a hypothetical way over the internet.

 

In other words, as CB often points out this medium has vast limitations and here we see one, better for sifting out hard facts of history, who said what and where, etc.

 

As for the "role of women in Varnasrama, one could write a book on it. As a matter of fact in a way someone has. It is called the Srimad Bhagavatam by A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami.

 

Like I have been suggested for those truly interested in the material, and not just trying to set up Caturbahu dasa to look less knowledgable than he is, just read the books, and observe life unfold around you, and apply the conceptual knowledge from the books (jnana) to what you observe and then you will realize (vijnana) the truth about it.

 

And of course living among other devotees who devote some time to understanding this particular purpose of the Krsna Consciousness Movement can only accelerate this process and bring more pleasure to Srila Prabhupada. That is living in the field.

 

Hare Krsna

 

What he said:)

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

Like I have been suggested for those truly interested in the material, and not just trying to set up Caturbahu dasa to look less knowledgable than he is, just read the books, and observe life unfold around you, and apply the conceptual knowledge from the books (jnana) to what you observe and then you will realize (vijnana) the truth about it.

 

 

But we were asked to ask questions.

[brajeshwara das]

 

let us have sum well thought out reasonalble questions brought up for discussion.

 

 

!

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I'm not trying to set anyone up It is a simple question. How do I explain it concisely to someone? What is a woman's role in varnashrama?

 

So here are some more just to get you started:

 

Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

If outside, why?

What responsibilities do they have?

What is the difference from a man's roles?

 

I don't know how you guys actually think my question is bad. It is simple and honest and if that is a curveball for you then good luck.

 

 

No curve ball

 

First woman have varna just like men. How else will we be able to marry a woman of like mind? And Prabhupada calls a mixed marriage such, if husband and wife are of different varna. Not good at all. The best is same varna, next down is if the husband is higher varna, then tragedy is if woman is higher varna.

 

Within varna sexes will have a little differing roles. Ksatriya women would learn as the men, but in private. In other words she would know martial arts but learn this at home or similar venue. More of this is in the Mahabharta.

 

She would never take the throne under any circumstance....

 

SB 10/4/5 purport

 

"Here we see that Devaki first focused Kamsa’s attention on his atrocious activities, his killing of her many sons. Then she wanted to compromise with him by saying that whatever he had done was not his fault, but was ordained by destiny. Then she appealed to him to give her the daughter as a gift. Devaki was the daughter of a kshatriya and knew how to play the political game. In politics there are different methods of achieving success: first repression (dama), then compromise (sama), and then asking for a gift (dana). Devaki first adopted the policy of repression by directly attacking Kamsa for having cruelly, atrociously killed her babies. Then she compromised by saying that this was not his fault, and then she begged for a gift. As we learn from the history of the Mahabharata, or “Greater India,” the wives and daughters of the ruling class, the kshatriyas, knew the political game, but we never find that a woman was given the post of chief executive. This is in accordance with the injunctions of Manu-samhita, but unfortunately Manu-samhita is now being insulted, and the Aryans, the members of Vedic society, cannot do anything. Such is the nature of Kali-yuga."

 

Is this OK? to start.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja