Varnashrama Dharma, A Morning Walk Conversation

bhaktatraveler · February 23, 2007

But we were asked to ask questions.

Yes, just now coming. I'm guiding children(14,16,17) to do, and am on line at same time.

CB-r

bhaktatraveler · February 23, 2007

!

Fixing offering, slow down a bit please.

CB-r

brajeshwara das · February 23, 2007

http://www.vedabase.net/tqk/5/en1

Here is a mention of women and sudras from Srila Swami Maharaja's purports in Srimad Bhagavatam, probably where I last read it. Just for reference:

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Queen Kunti

Here are some of the specific symbolical marks on the spiritual body of the Personality of Godhead which distinguishes His body from the bodies of all others. They are all special features of the body of the Lord. The Lord may appear as one of us, but He is always distinct by His specific bodily features. Srimati Kunti claims herself unfit to see the Lord because of her being a woman. This is claimed because women, sudras (the laborer class), and the dvija-bandhus, or the wretched descendants of the higher three classes, are unfit by intelligence to understand transcendental subject matter concerning the spiritual name, fame, attributes, forms, etc., of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Such persons, although they are unfit to enter into the spiritual affairs of the Lord, can see Him as the arca-vigraha, who descends on the material world just to distribute favors to the fallen souls, including the above-mentioned women, sudras, and dvija-bandhus. Because such fallen souls cannot see anything beyond matter, the Lord condescends to enter into each and every one of the innumerable universes as the Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who grows a lotus stem from the lotuslike depression in the center of His transcendental abdomen, and thus Brahma, the first living being in the universe, is born.

brajeshwara das · February 23, 2007

Yes, just now coming. I'm guiding children(14,16,17) to do, and am on line at same time.

CB-r

No problem, totally understood, just responding to Bhakta Devarsi.

bhaktatraveler · February 23, 2007

http://www.vedabase.net/tqk/5/en1

Here is a mention of women and sudras from Srila Swami Maharaja's purports in Srimad Bhagavatam, probably where I last read it. Just for reference:

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Queen Kunti

Here are some of the specific symbolical marks on the spiritual body of the Personality of Godhead which distinguishes His body from the bodies of all others. They are all special features of the body of the Lord. The Lord may appear as one of us, but He is always distinct by His specific bodily features. Srimati Kunti claims herself unfit to see the Lord because of her being a woman. This is claimed because women, sudras (the laborer class), and the dvija-bandhus, or the wretched descendants of the higher three classes, are unfit by intelligence to understand transcendental subject matter concerning the spiritual name, fame, attributes, forms, etc., of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Such persons, although they are unfit to enter into the spiritual affairs of the Lord, can see Him as the arca-vigraha, who descends on the material world just to distribute favors to the fallen souls, including the above-mentioned women, sudras, and dvija-bandhus. Because such fallen souls cannot see anything beyond matter, the Lord condescends to enter into each and every one of the innumerable universes as the Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who grows a lotus stem from the lotuslike depression in the center of His transcendental abdomen, and thus Brahma, the first living being in the universe, is born.

Hare Krsna

This is not how DAIVI varnasrama-dharma will work for vaisnava. For spiritual life we see no varna distinction, all will get the same opportunity as the next prabhu, man, woman, or child, equally. We are not these varnas when we speak in strictly spiritual terms. This DVD is for MANAGEMENT of material affairs of ISKCON. All spiritual advancement is equally distributed. No distinctions.

Though to just arbitrarally through out, we also can not do. So in this case i would say that the purport is applied multi level. Some varna at times, next time no varma.

Hare Krsna, CB-r

Bhakta Devarsi · February 23, 2007

!

My emphasis on well thought out, and reasonable.

Which the seasoned critic and highly tuned B.S. detector tell me that were both lacking, and thus, "what I said."

But perhaps since you have been slightly cloistered in a "brahminical" community (which seems to exclude the understanding of the lower 3/4 of your bodily members (lower varnas), you are just a victim to this tunnel vision and not consciously intentionally malefic.

As a recovered victim myself, I know I still had some tendency to desire some part of the lifestyle my overlords had, or they never would have got their hooks in me. So I learned we need to deal with these unconscious manifestations of false ego when they arise, and sometimes it takes another to point them out, as you all have been so generously doing for me, but the difference here seems to be that you guys just deny, deny, deny, there could be any traces of tama guna in your desires and continue on with your exact method of behavior as if the honest criticisms were never taken to heart, just shrugged off and back to the drill.

We are supposed to identify these weeds and yank them out of the garden our creeper is in, not let them overgrow the garden while we proclaim, "oh what overgrowth, I can still see the sun, look through that crack.

Then our discussions actually produce more depth, because we will NATURALLY TEND to ask REASONABLE questions of each other, because of our true interest in learning as opposed to what this has ONLY temporarily been diverted to here, which is a bit of a one-upsman game and me calling it as it is, in hopes it will SUBSIST.

Of course my detractors will likely point out to my involvement in such a side track as MY DESIRE forgetting how originally they began down this road, so lets skip THAT route also, and just think about what we really have to say to each other, if anything on this subject, that would lead to some upliftment of our adhikary, and filter out the rest using a reasonable test, such as asking ourselves, "will he understand what I am saying?", "am I sure I see where he is coming from?", "Is this something truly relevant to the discussion theme?" "DID I READ EVERYTHING HE WROTE?" ETC..

Hoping for more harmony

ys

BD

brajeshwara das · February 23, 2007

My emphasis on well thought out, and reasonable.

Which the seasoned critic and highly tuned B.S. detector tell me that were both lacking, and thus, "what I said."

But perhaps since you have been slightly cloistered in a "brahminical" community (which seems to exclude the understanding of the lower 3/4 of your bodily members (lower varnas), you are just a victim to this tunnel vision and not consciously intentionally malefic.

You sure assume a lot. Sometimes a question is just a question and you read a lot into things and assume the BS is outside of yourself and miss it on the inside. I'm done with this, simple questions should be simply answered. Hari Bol. I sincerely wish you guys the best. I know your intentions as good and hope you are successful in your service to Srila Swami Maharaj.

Bhakta Devarsi · February 23, 2007

http://www.vedabase.net/tqk/5/en1

Here is a mention of women and sudras from Srila Swami Maharaja's purports in Srimad Bhagavatam, probably where I last read it. Just for reference:

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Queen Kunti

Here are some of the specific symbolical marks on the spiritual body of the Personality of Godhead which distinguishes His body from the bodies of all others. They are all special features of the body of the Lord. The Lord may appear as one of us, but He is always distinct by His specific bodily features. Srimati Kunti claims herself unfit to see the Lord because of her being a woman. This is claimed because women, sudras (the laborer class), and the dvija-bandhus, or the wretched descendants of the higher three classes, are unfit by intelligence to understand transcendental subject matter concerning the spiritual name, fame, attributes, forms, etc., of the Supreme Absolute Truth. Such persons, although they are unfit to enter into the spiritual affairs of the Lord, can see Him as the arca-vigraha, who descends on the material world just to distribute favors to the fallen souls, including the above-mentioned women, sudras, and dvija-bandhus. Because such fallen souls cannot see anything beyond matter, the Lord condescends to enter into each and every one of the innumerable universes as the Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, who grows a lotus stem from the lotuslike depression in the center of His transcendental abdomen, and thus Brahma, the first living being in the universe, is born.

Personally I do not see where the guidelines in this purport go against the Daivi structure.

The context of this description of the qualifications of the women, sudras, and dvija bhandus is the most broad foundational understanding, and note that he goes on to relate these categorizations to be the reason why Lord Visnu enters into a universe, in order to distribute favors to these types of souls.

It denotes the lowest kinetic potential of the varnas. Pre manifestation, there is the glance of Lord Visnu. Then Lord Brahma heads up the manifestation of the Heavenly Administration of the demigods, and the populating of the rest of the universe. The earth begins in Satya Yuga, where there is a HUGE gap in spiritual REALIZATION between the varnas, and those above categories apply. Of course in Satya yuga, the Brahmanas and Ksyatrias hold righteous sway over most all of the earth, and we get steady spiritual advancement since all are following the Divine Varnasrama plan of Lord Visnu given through Lord Brahma and the Kumaras to the Maha-Rishis.

So Queen Kunti devi is so advanced that to her it is a NATURAL TENDENCY to act immediately the way she did. Whether she was Krsna Conscious on the spiritual platform or the material platform need not enter the equation, her bodily illusion would be the same and proper for a woman of her varna and ashram.

So for me, I use this and observe the women around me to see what there natural tendency is, which can be difficult to discern in a world where currently due to lack of vedic culture, many persons are twisted inside and not even civilized, forget about vedic, but we can see glimpses, and when we see those that match the scriptures, we can place special emphasis on praising those and truly appreciating what they bring to our lives, positively reinforcing self esteem and this deflects time and energy from non-vedic behavior.

In essence, this is how I try to treat all people, but fail miserably because I have unrealistically high standards of myself and others, so for those I have certainly offended, and that means all of you, I am sorry and hope to do better.

Oh yes, one thing I realized is that each man gets the woman he deserves, and her good behaviors are a reflection of his piety, her poor behaviors a reflection of his selfishness, and the way he corrects her is a sure sign of his spiritual maturity, and will certainly determine whether he is helping her or just lashing out at his own demon in her, in which case he certainly will have to come back and repeat the lesson again til he gets it.

Hare Krsna

ys

BD

brajeshwara das · February 23, 2007

Personally I do not see where the guidelines in this purport go against the Daivi structure.

I didn't say it did, it was just the spark for the question of where women fit into the varna system, since they are grouped with sudras in the purport.

Murali_Mohan_das · February 23, 2007

In essence, this is how I try to treat all people, but fail miserably because I have unrealistically high standards of myself and others, so for those I have certainly offended, and that means all of you, I am sorry and hope to do better.

Oh yes, one thing I realized is that each man gets the woman he deserves, and her good behaviors are a reflection of his piety, her poor behaviors a reflection of his selfishness, and the way he corrects her is a sure sign of his spiritual maturity, and will certainly determine whether he is helping her or just lashing out at his own demon in her, in which case he certainly will have to come back and repeat the lesson again til he gets it.

BD Prabhu, the first paragraph fits me to a "T" and the second is the story of my failed marriage (I took the selfish route). Let me take this opportunity to honor you and your realization.

Just now getting back to the office from my son's first school play, its nice to see the direction this discussion has taken (with the occasional fits and starts along the way).

Caturbahu Prabhu Bhakti-raja, you seem to exhibit the playful (and boasting) mood of Lord Balaram. As I said, I'm not qualified to judge your capacity, despite the impression of you that has formed in my mind. Perhaps you are a born Ksatriya.

While, as a former pupil of Keshava Prabhu (only a class or two, but...), I can't share your view of him, though it's certainly interesting. I would attribute his supposed lack of discernment as to the natures of others to be due to his realized nature--perhaps he is seeing Krishna in the hearts of all.

My memory is poor, but I will certainly convey your regards (was it regards, or was I simply to mention you?) to the Senior Vaishnavas in my community. Sadly, I don't associate with them as frequently and to the degree that would be for my benefit.

Dina Doyal!!!!

bhaktatraveler · February 24, 2007

BD Prabhu, the first paragraph fits me to a "T" and the second is the story of my failed marriage (I took the selfish route). Let me take this opportunity to honor you and your realization.

Just now getting back to the office from my son's first school play, its nice to see the direction this discussion has taken (with the occasional fits and starts along the way).

Caturbahu Prabhu Bhakti-raja, you seem to exhibit the playful (and boasting) mood of Lord Balaram. As I said, I'm not qualified to judge your capacity, despite the impression of you that has formed in my mind. Perhaps you are a born Ksatriya.

While, as a former pupil of Keshava Prabhu (only a class or two, but...), I can't share your view of him, though it's certainly interesting. I would attribute his supposed lack of discernment as to the natures of others to be due to his realized nature--perhaps he is seeing Krishna in the hearts of all.

My memory is poor, but I will certainly convey your regards (was it regards, or was I simply to mention you?) to the Senior Vaishnavas in my community. Sadly, I don't associate with them as frequently and to the degree that would be for my benefit.

Dina Doyal!!!!

Tell Sruts and Sanatani didi that I send hugs and kisses. Especially I miss the Saturday competitons. There are to many to mention but I know most of the old timers. They all have my warm regards. Oh, Jagadananda too. Is Rasangi there? Her too. All warm regards.

Yes, you do have me peged with My Lord Balarama. I should probably tone it down a couple tics. It is just to make a point sometimes.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

brajeshwara das · February 24, 2007

Rasangi devi is Murali's mom!

Bhakta Devarsi · February 24, 2007

I didn't say it did, it was just the spark for the question of where women fit into the varna system, since they are grouped with sudras in the purport.

Yeah, I know, it said it after reading what Caturbahu dasa posted after reading it. After he said..

"This is not how DAIVI varnasrama-dharma will work for vaisnava."

And then went on to ammend that a bit saying.

"Though to just arbitrarally through out, we also can not do. So in this case i would say that the purport is applied multi level. Some varna at times, next time no varna."

So that made me read that purport more closely, and I came up with what I did, for the sake of discussing your original question, curve ball or not, I thought I would just play along and consider what was coming down the pike.

Of course you posted that purport after Caturbahu dasa answered your fourfould question posed like this.

1. Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

2. If outside, why?

3. What responsibilities do they have?

4. What is the difference from a man's roles?

And his answer was.

First woman have varna just like men. How else will we be able to marry a woman of like mind? And Prabhupada calls a mixed marriage such, if husband and wife are of different varna. Not good at all. The best is same varna, next down is if the husband is higher varna, then tragedy is if woman is higher varna.

Within varna sexes will have a little differing roles. Ksatriya women would learn as the men, but in private. In other words she would know martial arts but learn this at home or similar venue. More of this is in the Mahabharta.

She would never take the throne under any circumstance....

So in relation to where the conversation was most previously coming from, it seemed CB saw that purport as possibly contradicting his position, but then got real flexible and saw the acintya there.

I just expounded a bit on what he already saw, and thought that in our case he is right that all get the opportunity, but we need to be realistic about where we are materially in order to make the most rapid spiritual advancement in a Personalistic community, and Queen Kunti devi's example is exemplar in this regard.

I am noticing just now, how deep that purport is, like a multifaceted jewel cut so nicely, you can enjoy it from any angle, and there is even activity deep in its center.

Wow, Hare Krsna

BD

brajeshwara das · February 24, 2007

So still at work and don't have much time to read through this to find who is a bona fide Ksatrya per Srila Swami Maharaj , but for those who had their varna identified by Him or other exalted Vaisnavas, maybe you can share the experience, what was said, the context etc. That would be interesting and nourishing to hear.

bhaktatraveler · February 24, 2007

Yeah, I know, it said it after reading what Caturbahu dasa posted after reading it. After he said..

"This is not how DAIVI varnasrama-dharma will work for vaisnava."

And then went on to ammend that a bit saying.

"Though to just arbitrarally through out, we also can not do. So in this case i would say that the purport is applied multi level. Some varna at times, next time no varna."

So that made me read that purport more closely, and I came up with what I did, for the sake of discussing your original question, curve ball or not, I thought I would just play along and consider what was coming down the pike.

Of course you posted that purport after Caturbahu dasa answered your fourfould question posed like this.

1. Are they in the four varnas, or outside them?

2. If outside, why?

3. What responsibilities do they have?

4. What is the difference from a man's roles?

And his answer was.

So in relation to where the conversation was most previously coming from, it seemed CB saw that purport as possibly contradicting his position, but then got real flexible and saw the acintya there.

I just expounded a bit on what he already saw, and thought that in our case he is right that all get the opportunity, but we need to be realistic about where we are materially in order to make the most rapid spiritual advancement in a Personalistic community, and Queen Kunti devi's example is exemplar in this regard.

I am noticing just now, how deep that purport is, like a multifaceted jewel cut so nicely, you can enjoy it from any angle, and there is even activity deep in its center.

Wow, Hare Krsna

BD

Honestly I'm still digesting it all. I was doing prasadam and house hold mania form kids sake. But you know, you and I will have to PM for a week to have a concenses. This, as you say, is a very deep purport, we might need to go under ground.

The idea of mixing varnasrama with spiritual advancement comes to mind. I think one(VAD) is over ruled by the other(Daivi). Anyone?

CONV. 2/14/77

Prabhupada; Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Bhakta Devarsi · February 24, 2007

Excellent conversation.

It all seemed straightforward and clear to me.

I especially note at the very end where Srila Prabhupada says.

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Especially note the phrase "therefore falling down". He uses this to describe what is happening as a result of what he indicates in the statement just prior...that we were trying the impossible...

to bring him IMMEDIATELY to the platform of brahmana OR Vaisnava.

So the SOLUTION?

A SYSTEM.

Therefore system MUST BE.

And for any detractors that believe a system will somehow mundanely taint and thus prevent a person dominated by tamo guna from being engaged and steadily advancing in devotional service he ends saying.

"But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava."

And this steals the show.

Even if he remains a sudra. So why would someone remain a sudra? If they are a Vaisnava, why not display the modes of goodness all throughout the day? Some may ask. But that would show lack of understanding of the deep relation of being a sudra to the mode of ignorance. But even so, a sudra is qualified to be a Vaisnava if he cooperates.

This does not contradict his original chastisement not to bring the person up to Vaisnava immediately, because he mentioned the words brahmana or Vaisnava in that regard, indicating that Generally, a neophyte Vaisnava who actually becomes qualified as a Brahmana would generally be considered a more advanced Vaisnava than a Sudra who "remains" a sudra even after years of exposure and opportunites to act in managerial roles, or more priestly functions. Remembering that advanced devotees are considered to be "fully conversant" in the scriptures and the science of Krsna Consciousness.

So DVD boils down to this. Ok, we are neophytes and solid at that, but now the fire of cooperation with high ideals and flawed personalities, and that being the only way to make real advancement from here, leaving the sahajya behind, I hold Madhyama adhikari above my head the way Srila Sridhara Maharaja holds Vraja Dhama above his.

All Glories to Vaisnava Sanga

bhaktatraveler · February 24, 2007

So still at work and don't have much time to read through this to find who is a bona fide Ksatrya per Srila Swami Maharaj , but for those who had their varna identified by Him or other exalted Vaisnavas, maybe you can share the experience, what was said, the context etc. That would be interesting and nourishing to hear.

It's a little beyond the web to go indepth. The short story is simple. As a sankirtam devotee for the first 2 yrs on the road I have run at times from temple to temple. 5 times I was at a temple Srila Prabhupada was at. Each time I was armed and stood personal guard to Prabhupada.

The last time in Detroit, summer 76, I was on a sankirtan party with Dhira Krsna das. I broke off as before and stood guard at the door. I did not like this service of the pick. I went to Srila Prabhupada to get permision to have a different engagement, I hated the pick, not my style. I just want to slap them and take the wallet.

We talked about the different things we did on the party as part of our activites. If chanting was going on and like that. He asked if we were passing out books and I told Him that the leader was so cheap that we had to collect a rediculous amount just to give a BTG. Prabhupada was not happy. And that we handed out Tootsie rolls, He asked if the karmi's liked it. I said yes they did. Prabhupada made no other comment about the candy. This was also when I had the grace from Srila Prabhupada to understand the ends justifing the means.

Then he asked what I wanted to do. I simply said what I was doing then, guarding you Srila Prabhupada. This now goes the next step to exchange from heart to heart. Beyond subtle or gross embodiment. Prabhupada entered my heart as I opened up to Him. He actually rumaged arould in all the corrners, leaving nothing hidden. I was as Hanuman opened up to Rama. We came back to the material consciousness and he said you are ksatriya. No drama. Very matter of fact. As this was a private meet only Pusta Krsna was in the room looking out the window in his own world. Pusta Krsna left Prabhupada's company soon after.

That night from about 11:00 PM I started to get feverish. Sometime after 1:00 AM I pasted out in the door way with a gun in one hand and my bead bag in the other, the doorway to Srila Prabhupada's room is about 2 1/2 feet wide. I blocked the door with my body so no one could come or go and lost consciousness. Next thing I know Srila Prabhupada is standing there with His door open telling one of the sannyasi' to get up and give me his bed. By the time I came to everyone was gone to the airport. I was heart broke and confused. But Prabhupada had changed something in me that immediately took hold and acted, almost as if a growth was planted. I have been riding that wave for 31 yrs this summer.

Thats the simple.

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

bhaktatraveler · February 24, 2007

Excellent conversation.

It all seemed straightforward and clear to me.

I especially note at the very end where Srila Prabhupada says.

Especially note the phrase "therefore falling down". He uses this to describe what is happening as a result of what he indicates in the statement just prior...that we were trying the impossible...

to bring him IMMEDIATELY to the platform of brahmana OR Vaisnava.

So the SOLUTION?

A SYSTEM.

Therefore system MUST BE.

And for any detractors that believe a system will somehow mundanely taint and thus prevent a person dominated by tamo guna from being engaged and steadily advancing in devotional service he ends saying.

"But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava."

And this steals the show.

Even if he remains a sudra. So why would someone remain a sudra? If they are a Vaisnava, why not display the modes of goodness all throughout the day? Some may ask. But that would show lack of understanding of the deep relation of being a sudra to the mode of ignorance. But even so, a sudra is qualified to be a Vaisnava if he cooperates.

This does not contradict his original chastisement not to bring the person up to Vaisnava immediately, because he mentioned the words brahmana or Vaisnava in that regard, indicating that Generally, a neophyte Vaisnava who actually becomes qualified as a Brahmana would generally be considered a more advanced Vaisnava than a Sudra who "remains" a sudra even after years of exposure and opportunites to act in managerial roles, or more priestly functions. Remembering that advanced devotees are considered to be "fully conversant" in the scriptures and the science of Krsna Consciousness.

So DVD boils down to this. Ok, we are neophytes and solid at that, but now the fire of cooperation with high ideals and flawed personalities, and that being the only way to make real advancement from here, leaving the sahajya behind, I hold Madhyama adhikari above my head the way Srila Sridhara Maharaja holds Vraja Dhama above his.

All Glories to Vaisnava Sanga

You da man Bk Devarsi! you da man! Is anyone else out there? Opportunity is knocking:)

CB-r

anadi · February 24, 2007

Thanks Bk Devarsi, well said. I was just ignoring him. I know his Guru's mind and you will be hard pressed to reach the Radha Kunda Babji crowd.

CB-R

Dear bhaktatraveler dandavat pranam,

1. I am not initiated by any guru from Radha Kunda, but I highly esteem their knowledge of the scripture by which they preserve the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism as taught by the empowered representants of Mahaprabhu the teaching whose core is the raga-anuga sadhana which make a Vaishnava sadhaka to be a Gaudiya, and I also highily esteem their one pointedness and their renunciation.

2.The arguments presented by bhakta Devarsi are wrong.

Here it is the evidence:

He said:

And as for whatever else you may have wrote, I am sorry, but you immediately started to define Bhakti narrowly as Suddha Bhakti, and there again was immediately my proof that you have a smarta mentality,

But :

The definition of Bhakti (as) Shuddha Bhakti is not a “narrow” definition, but the true definition of Bhakti. When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks of bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti.

This definition of bhakti was given by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

If in his conception the using as evidence for the Truth (in a philosophical argument) of Gaudiya shastra as delineated by the empowered representatives of Sri Caitanya is a smarta mentality, than his idea of Smarta is based on a false interpretation of the notion which may have been distorted in the books he uses as evidence for the Truth.

Definition of smarta:

smarta - one of a group of brahmans who uphold nonsectarian orthodoxy according to the Shankara Vedanta <st1:place></st1:place>

Adi Shankara is the Hindu philosopher whose tradition is followed by Smarta Brahmins

The three sampradayas (traditions) of Brahmins, especially in South India are the Smarta sampradaya, the Sri-vaishnava sampradaya and the Madhva sampradaya.

He also said:

You simply need to get to the point where you can see that the person who responds in even the smallest way to a preaching Acarya and hears and chants abit, then goes back to their occupation in the modes is engaged in BHAKTI. Then maybe we could have a conversation in the future. Otherwise your mind is lost swimming in an ocean of intellectual concepts, while your heart seems blinded by smarta attitude.

This is especially telling when you say things like Srila Prabhupada was preaching against DVD when he first came to the west. That shows your lack of knowledge of his preaching and what he wrote. My god, he gave direct instructions in his Dehli Bhagavatam first canto from the early 60's that DVD was part of the Krsna Consciounsess movement.

But

1. the concepts presented are not intellectual but Gaudiya Vaishnava Concepts

2. he just miss-read what I wrote:

And now comes SB Narayan M ... following "Prabhupada" and says that we have to follow (daivi) varna-ashram dharma, although in the beginning of his preaching in West, was against it and preached Shuddha Bhakti.

It is SB Narayan M. who in the beginning preached we should become beggars like Raghunatha Das Gosvami. He also gave the concession that one can stay married but he also added that the one who is not married should not marry… but he never said we should implement (daivi) varnashram dharma, but that we should always keep in mind we should became like Mahaprabhu, like the Gosvamis from Vrindavan – nishkincan, there is no other way that the mind will become one pointed at the lotus feet of the Divine Couple – yugala kishor.

"Prabhupada" said that this teaching of Mahaprabhu and His empowered representatives we should not follow.

See also the post #3 from this thread where GuestCBhati said:

"This is the same NM that just a few yrs ago said we don't need interest in DVD? Wow, what an about face, I saw a transcript of a lecture/conversation for NM where he sited Ramananda Raya's conversation with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as evedence that we would reject the idea of DVD, Isa das, one of NM sadhika's, showed me the lecture transcript as the position that NM took on the subject. Bas. Even when I tryed to question Isa and show him the standard of Srila Prabhupada on the subject of DVD Isa would not have a converstion and shut me out saying it is what it is. He showed me, I read it, that's what it is."

3. According the evidence from the scripture a Gaudiya Vaishnava should not endeavor for (daivi) Varnashrma Dharma, (which is external - social) as other "preanching movements" do, but for sadhana bhakti.

And Srila Bhakrivinoda Thakura stated also in his dasa mula tattva:

AmnAyaH prAha tattvaM harim iha paramaM sarva-zaktiM rasAbdhiM

tad-bhinnAMzAMz ca jIvAn prakRti-kavalitan tad-vimuktAMz ca bhAvAd

bhedAbheda-prakAzaM sakalam api hareH sAdhanaM zuddha-bhaktiM

sadhyaM tat-pritim evety upadizati janAn gauracandraH svayaM saH

1. PramANa (evidence): The teachings of the Vedas received through guru-paramparA are known as AmnAya. The infallible evidence of the Vedas, of the smRti-zAstras headed by the Srimad-BhAgavatam, as well as evidence such as direct sense perception (pratyakSa), that concur with the guidance of the Vedas, are all accepted as pramANa (evidence). This pramANa establishes the following prameyas (fundamental truths):

2. Parama-tattva: Sri Hari alone is the Supreme Absolute Truth.

3. Sarva-zaktimAn: Sri Hari is the possessor of all potency.

4. rasAbdhiM - Akhila-rasAmRta-sindhu: He is the ocean of nectarean mellows.

5. tad-bhinnAMzAMz ca jIvAn  Both the mukta (liberated) and baddha (conditioned) jIvas are His eternally separated parts and parcels.

6. prakRti-kavalitan - Baddha-jIvas: Conditioned souls are subject to the control and covering of mAyA.

7. tad-vimuktAMz ca bhAvAd - Mukta-jIvas: Liberated souls, only through bhAvA (divine love for The All Attractive)are really free from mAyA.

8. bhedAbheda-prakAzaM sakalam api hareH -Acintya-bhedAbheda-tattva: The entire universe, consisting of the conscious (cit) and unconscious (acit), is Sri Hari’s acintya-bhedAbheda-prakAza, that is to say, it is His manifestation which is inconceivably both different and non-different from Him.

9. sAdhanaM zuddha-bhaktiM - Zuddha-bhakti (pure devotional service) is the practice (sAdhana) to attain divine love of God - prema (not daivi varna-ashrm dharma)

10. sadhyaM tat-pritim  - KRSNa-prIti: Transcendental love and affection for KRSNa is the one and only final object of attainment (sAdhya-vastu).

evety upadizati janAn gauracandraH svayaM saH - SvayaM BhagavAn zri GaurAGgadeva (Sri KRSNa Caitanya) has herein instructed ten distinct tattvas (fundamental truths) to the faithful jIvas.

4. The ones who relized they are cheated, and realize they follow a yoga sistem which give no access to learning the meditation on the worshipable Deities, and saw they make no preogress, they left...

anadi · February 24, 2007

Thanks Bk Devarsi, well said. I was just ignoring him. I know his Guru's mind and you will be hard pressed to reach the Radha Kunda Babji crowd.

CB-R

Dear bhaktatraveler dandavat pranam,

1. I am not initiated by any guru from Radha Kunda, but I highly esteem their knowledge of the scripture by which they preserve the traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavism as taught by the empowered representants of Mahaprabhu the teaching whose core is the raga-anuga sadhana which make a Vaishnava to be a Gaudiya, and I alos highily esteem their one pointedness and their renunciation

2.The arguments presented by bhakta Devarsi are wrong.

Here it is the evidence:

He said:

And as for whatever else you may have wrote, I am sorry, but you immediately started to define Bhakti narrowly as Suddha Bhakti, and there again was immediately my proof that you have a smarta mentality,

But :

The definition of Bhakti (as) Shuddha Bhakti is not a “narrow” definition, but the true definition of Bhakti. When a (Gaudiya) Vaishnava speaks o bhakti he means always shuddha bhakti, not aropa siddha bhakti, or sanga siddha bhakti.

This definition of bhakti was given by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

If in his conception the using as evidence for the Truth (in a philosophical argument) of Gaudiya shastra as delineated by the empowered representatives of Sri Caitanya is a smarta mentality, than his idea of Smarta is based on a false interpretation of the notion which may have been distorted in the books he uses as evidence for the Truth.

Definition of smarta:

smarta - one of a group of brahmans who uphold nonsectarian orthodoxy according to the Shankara Vedanta <st1:place><st1>:PlaceType>school</st1>:PlaceType> of <st1>:PlaceName>Hinduism</st1>:PlaceName></st1:place>

Adi Shankara is the Hindu philosopher whose tradition is followed by Smarta Brahmins

The three sampradayas (traditions) of Brahmins, especially in South India are the Smarta sampradaya, the Sri-vaishnava sampradaya and the Madhva sampradaya.

He also said:

You simply need to get to the point where you can see that the person who responds in even the smallest way to a preaching Acarya and hears and chants abit, then goes back to their occupation in the modes is engaged in BHAKTI. Then maybe we could have a conversation in the future. Otherwise your mind is lost swimming in an ocean of intellectual concepts, while your heart seems blinded by smarta attitude.

This is especially telling when you say things like Srila Prabhupada was preaching against DVD when he first came to the west. That shows your lack of knowledge of his preaching and what he wrote. My god, he gave direct instructions in his Dehli Bhagavatam first canto from the early 60's that DVD was part of the Krsna Consciounsess movement.

But

he just miss-read what I wrote:

And now comes SB Narayan M ... following "Prabhupada" and says that we have to follow (daivi) varna-ashram dharma, although in the beginning of his preaching in West, was against it and preached Shuddha Bhakti.

It is SB Narayan M. who in the beginning preached we should become beggars like Raghunatha Das Gosvami. He also gave the concession that one can stay married but he also added that the one who is not married should not marry… but he never said we should implement (daivi) varnashram dharma, but that we should always keep in mind we should became like Mahaprabhu, like the Gosvamis from Vrindavan – nishkincan, there is no other way that the mind will become one pointed at the lotus feet of the Divine Couple – yugala kishor.

"Prabhupada" said that this teaching of Mahaprabhu and His empowered representatives we should not follow.

See also the post #3 from this thread where GuestCBhati said:

Hare Krsna,All prabhus

This is the same NM that just a few yrs ago said we don't need interest in DVD? Wow, what an about face, I saw a transcript of a lecture/conversation for NM where he sited Ramananda Raya's conversation with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as evedence that we would reject the idea of DVD, Isa das, one of NM sadhika's, showed me the lecture transcript as the position that NM took on the subject. Bas. Even when I tryed to question Isa and show him the standard of Srila Prabhupada on the subject of DVD Isa would not have a converstion and shut me out saying it is what it is. He showed me, I read it, that's what it is.

3. According the evidence from the scripture a Gaudiya Vaishnava should not endeavor for (daivi) Varnashrma Dharma, (which is external - social) as other "preanching movements" do but for sadhana bhakti.