Regulative Principles Mandatory?

[Guest guest]

One current big time acarya said, "they say you have to follow the regulative principles to be Krsna Conscious....I don't think so." Is this possible? Are we focusing too much on the regulative principles? How many devotees are really following?

[Beggar]

Well at least everyone is pretty much clear on no meat, fish or eggs, unless the eggs are disguised in cookies. One group admits that hardly anyone really follows and in another group they mostly pretend to follow (since 1966)

[bhaktatraveler]

I am specificly asking for permission to use quotes from Srila Prabhupada to refute 4 reg's as we now now it. You have deleted me every time I have posted in the past so just please tell me one way or an other if it is OK. I will not post other wise on this thread. And I do disagree, as said.

 

Thank you Moderator, Hare krsna. Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

My understanding is the regulative principals are like training wheels, as well as the number of rounds to be chanted. They are necessary in that they guide you in the proper behavior and keep you from falling. When you actually learn to ride the bike they can be discarded. But then you are riding the bike correctly and not falling down.

 

I guess what I'm saying is you need them until you become Krishna Conscious, and when you are you won't do those activities anyway. So no need for training wheels. A pure devotee isn't thinking, 'gee, it would be nice to eat a cow but I have to stick to the four regulative principals. How about a beer instead? Maybe I can get one at the casino, there are lots of pretty girls there.' Their activity isn't based on following the rules and regs but naturally do anyhow without thought of diverging.

[theist]

If we analyze the four regs independently according to their effects we can easily see how they are conducive to yoga practice in general.

 

1. Killing animals for food is worse than eatting the meat in my opinion. How can we cultivate compassion to other living beings while we are engaged in cruely slaughtering them? Is not compassion one of the Vaisnava attributes.

 

Eatting dead animal flesh is just so incredibly in the mode of ignorance. Is not developing sattva guna qualities important to our spirutal progress?

 

2. Intoxicants fog the mind and cause us to preform unwise and destructive actions.

 

We want to sharpen the mind for clear laser like focus on Krsna. If Krsna consciousness is considered living in the full sunlight then using intoxicants is like living in a cloud to avoid the full effect of the sun. Some light will get through no doubt but that usually just enhances the illusion of being really Krsna conscious.

 

3.Gambling increases material desires and is faithless basically. One is either putting faith in "chance" which is an illusion that denies the controlling aspect of God or putting faith in one's own skills in overcoming the odds.

 

Vaisnavas are taught to be satisfied with their alotted quotas and just remember Krsna. He will bring an increase to us if He sees fit. Speaking of which I am hoping Krsna decides to bring me an increase in the form of a winning ticket from last nights Mega-Lotto. I haven't checked the numbers yet.

 

4. Illicit sex life just increases the illusion of our being the prime enjoyers which is the desire that brought us into the material dimension in the first place. Considering that how could illicit sex life be compatable with even basic principles of liberation?

 

These regulative principles were not whimsically passed out by His Divine Grace. They are essential for his disciples. If you are breaking these principles that is your business (as it is mine) But we forfeit the right to call ourselves disciples of Srila Prabhupada by doing so. All his formally initiated disciples VOWED to him to keep these four while at the same time cultivating direct devotional practices like chanting and serving. This should not be taken lightly.

 

If we find we are unable or unwilling to follow his prescription but still like to chant and hear Krsna conscious philosophy that is all right but let's be honest with ourselves about our own level of advancement. Self delusion is never conducive to self realization.

 

We must remeber however that that one need not follow these 4 as a prerequist to chanting Hare Krsna. There are no purificatory processes mandated before one can take up the name of Lord. If we want to be the disciple of a particular person like Srila Prabhupada then that is a different matter but we can be devotees (devotees lite) just no disciples of....

 

Trying to impose them on newcomers (or anyone) will always be counter ptoductive. As people learn more they will naturally gravitate to following them as they progress.

[Beggar]

One old ISKCON friend of mine showed up on the scene after a long time. I confided that I have problems with the regs. He told me that, "I have never missed a day of chanting 16 rounds and have never broken the regulative principles". One month later he was on the lam, charged with child molestation of his 12 yr. old step-daughter. A close friend of mine went to work for big time ISKCON devotee lady who had a large business. She announce quite suddenly, "I have not had sex in over 20 yrs." and her lips curled. Several years later she fell down with one of the most senior ISKCON sannyasis. In another group of which I am aware, some of the "preachers" take intoxicants. I know that from the ISKCON point of view that is shocking. Yet it almost seems that rampant hypocrisy around the regs is even worse.

[brajeshwara das]

 

One old ISKCON friend of mine showed up on the scene after a long time. I confided that I have problems with the regs. He told me that, "I have never missed a day of chanting 16 rounds and have never broken the regulative principles". One month later he was on the lam, charged with child molestation of his 12 yr. old step-daughter. A close friend of mine went to work for big time ISKCON devotee lady who had a large business. She announce quite suddenly, "I have not had sex in over 20 yrs." and her lips curled. Several years later she fell down with one of the most senior ISKCON sannyasis. In another group of which I am aware, some of the "preachers" take intoxicants. I know that from the ISKCON point of view that is shocking. Yet it almost seems that rampant hypocrisy around the regs is even worse.

 

Yeah, false renunciation is almost worse than no renunciation. It seems like the desire is never addressed, just the behavior, and at some point the person explodes like a volcano. And even worse is trying to put others under the illusion you follow when you don't.

 

I drink coffee and have caffeine. There, I said it. It's out in the open.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

My understanding is the regulative principals are like training wheels, as well as the number of rounds to be chanted. They are necessary in that they guide you in the proper behavior and keep you from falling. When you actually learn to ride the bike they can be discarded. But then you are riding the bike correctly and not falling down.

 

I guess what I'm saying is you need them until you become Krishna Conscious, and when you are you won't do those activities anyway. So no need for training wheels. A pure devotee isn't thinking, 'gee, it would be nice to eat a cow but I have to stick to the four regulative principals. How about a beer instead? Maybe I can get one at the casino, there are lots of pretty girls there.' Their activity isn't based on following the rules and regs but naturally do anyhow without thought of diverging.

 

Brajeshwara Prabhu,

 

your training wheel analogy is useful, but the following quote is insufficient.

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is you need them until you become Krishna Conscious, and when you are you won't do those activities anyway. So no need for training wheels

.

 

Those activities are Indeed continued. In the nectar of devotion chapter 2, Srila Prabhupada explains it like this.

 

Now this sadhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sadhana-bhakti is called raganuga. Raganuga refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer aratrika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers aratrika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sadhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

These regulative principles were not whimsically passed out by His Divine Grace. They are essential for his disciples. If you are breaking these principles that is your business (as it is mine) But we forfeit the right to call ourselves disciples of Srila Prabhupada by doing so. All his formally initiated disciples VOWED to him to keep these four while at the same time cultivating direct devotional practices like chanting and serving. This should not be taken lightly.

 

 

If you would look at the conversation books, especially in the 76-77 range, you would find where Srila Prabhupada made slight adjustments to the regulative principles according to varna. He spoke these conversations to his most senior men so they would develop a broad mind about the actual capacities of people who were TRULY Ksyatria Vaisya or Sudra in their Guna and Karma, and what they could realistially be expected to do over the long haul and still remain a servant of the Sankirtana movement under the auspices of his Iskcon Society, including its Government and rules.

 

So when you then say,

 

 

We must remeber however that that one need not follow these 4 as a prerequist to chanting Hare Krsna. There are no purificatory processes mandated before one can take up the name of Lord. If we want to be the disciple of a particular person like Srila Prabhupada then that is a different matter but we can be devotees (devotees lite) just no disciples of....

 

This is not quite proper with the new light shed on the situation. As long as one maintains the regulative principles of his varna, and remains in his proper ashram until it has its spiritual effect, they will get the perfection, so that means they are still under discipline, and thus a disciple.

 

So the sudra eats meat once a month if they must. No disqualification. As long as it is done exactly as the Acharya authorizes.

 

Of course some people at the time were too busy using the 4 regs to try to force others to a brahminical standard, while Srila Prabhupada was Screaming at them, "why force?they can stay sudra, they get the perfection" why force, "what don't you understand?" (to Brahmananda)

 

So they were not interested in incorporating all of the subtle changes that Srila Prabhupada recommended over the years. But I am.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

There are really five regulative principles It's directly from a verse in the S.B. Eleventh Canto which I'm trying to find. The fifth regulative principle is to not hoard gold.

[Guest guest]

Thanks, theist, for describing the actual science behind the so-called restrictions. The duty of the Spiritual master is to exact discipline while strengthening the four pillars of Spiritual life, austerity, mercy, cleanliness, and honesty. How he does this, this is the connection of initiation, a deal worked out specifically between guru and disciple.

 

We follow the regulative principles, not because we want to practice self-deprivation, but rather because we promised. Even those who do not have formal ties via initiaqtiuon are also fully initiated by accepting the discipline linked with the strengthening process.

 

So, when you come right down to it, there are not four regulative principles, there is but one promise. Any infraction, a quickie joint, or a cookie laced with eggs, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada has broken the promise, and will quickly rectify by apology, reformation, return to sadhana practice, etc. There is no value for a DISCIPLE of Srila Prabhupada to follow three out of four, because the single promise is broken.

 

Not all gurus require the same thing. Even Srila Prabhupada was not so pat in his interrelationships with his own disciples. I know of one devotee who was initiated by Srila Prabhupada and told to only chant a single round per day (This person was severely brain damaged, and it took him all day to chant one round).

 

Regulative principles are there for one serious for making advancement in Srila Prabhupadas care. In the beginning, these restrictions are never pushed like the baptist approach, fanatical repression. Srila Prabhupada understands the baggage his disciples carry, and has the right and duty to adjust accordingly. This is a positive process, where taking on a practice is exceedingly valuable. The practice is the yuga dharma of hearing and chanting Harinama, and is described by absolute authorioty as the only way in this age. Giving up the herb will never make one go back to godhead. Adolph Hitler was very strict in that he ate no meat, fish, or eggs. There are many celibate perverts out there as well. Everything outside of Nevada or Atlantic City is not necessarily goloka vrndavan.

 

The recommendation is to take up this scientific process, The foru regulative principles are linked to the four pillars of spiritual life, and it is easy to see the connection as explained by Srila Prabhupada. Smoke a joint. Are you more merciful toward all beings, or do you want a cookie (with eggs in em, BTW) and a nap. Eat a greasy steak, the meat coming from dinner for virtually thousands. Some austerity, eh? Why is a bath so necessary after sex of any kind? Maybe this cleanliness angle has some merit. Ever meet an honest poker player? So, either by the inductive or the deductive approach, (meaning experimentation or by just accepting from authority), the science is true, always. And full of meaning.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Nicely put Mahak.

 

This is why it was important to me to try and discover just actually what were Srila Prabhhupada's on what type of rules and regs would be suitable for different people, since the goal was always to assist someone in being able to chant more offenselessly, and this was obviously tied in to advancement through Guna at first for most conditioned souls.

 

It seemed to me that AFTER he left, so did alot of the mercy, as some narrowminded disciples of his were actually offering a limited opportunity, not having assimilated all of Srila Prabhupada's understandings of what qualified a person as being a follower in the broadminded way such an acharya can see, and which I see burgeoning amongst some of the minds of more liberal and independent types who gravitate to forums like this.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Theist

We must remeber however that that one need not follow these 4 as a prerequist to chanting Hare Krsna. There are no purificatory processes mandated before one can take up the name of Lord. If we want to be the disciple of a particular person like Srila Prabhupada then that is a different matter but we can be devotees (devotees lite) just no disciples of....

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"This is not quite proper with the new light shed on the situation. As long as one maintains the regulative principles of his varna, and remains in his proper ashram until it has its spiritual effect, they will get the perfection, so that means they are still under discipline, and thus a disciple."

 

"So the sudra eats meat once a month if they must. No disqualification. As long as it is done exactly as the Acharya authorizes."

 

 

 

Too much speculation. Do you have one example where Srila Prabhupada did not require a vow to follow the 4 regs. on the part of the aspirant who wanted to become his disciple? Can you sow me where he said even if they eat meat they are my disciples? I have never heard of such a thing. Why did he not tell the disciples that were sudras that they could eat meat once a month?

 

You are extrapolating from the varnashram conversation he had with some in Vrndavan and drawing conclusions that are not to be found there.

 

This spin of yours is a little dangerous if you cannot refine it more.

[Guest guest]

Nice to know someone cares enough to ask. No really.

 

Quotes from the Conversation books are on the way.

 

He speaks about the lifting of various restrictions on Sudras and Ksyatrias, these come to mind immediately.

 

Also speaking of tightening the restrictions for who is to receive 2nd initiation. Which leads to metion of Sudras still getting 2nd initiation and being thus Recognized as Vaisnava, not that they will be qualified as Brahmana, "but as good as brahmana".

 

You know, technical but important distinctions like this have to be pointed out sometimes when painting the picture of the society you are already building right under everyone's noses.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Quotes from the Conversation books are on the way.

 

He speaks about the lifting of various restrictions on Sudras and Ksyatrias, these come to mind immediately.

 

Also speaking of tightening the restrictions for who is to receive 2nd initiation. Which leads to metion of Sudras still getting 2nd initiation and being thus Recognized as Vaisnava, not that they will be qualified as Brahmana, "but as good as brahmana".

 

You know, technical but important distinctions like this have to be pointed out sometimes when painting the picture of the society you are already building right under everyone's noses.

 

Hare Krsna

What he said. But in addition, I'd like to note it may take a while, I don't have the Conv. books with me, but they are marked, just one town over also. But it is all there, or I wouldn't make such a claim.

 

Actually surprised a bunch of well read Brahmins would not already have read this while scouring the 32 conversation books.

 

They are the Purport to the Purport, to quote Caturbahu das. Love that quote.

 

Actually, I could paraphrase from memory each new development in Srila Prabhupada's vision for the adjustment of the regs by varna and ashram.

 

But I want to give you the real deal.

 

If for some reason my ability to post these rare jewels is hindered, I don't know why it would,, but anyway, you can use a vedabase folio search if you have the conv. on your folio.

 

Search for keywords (sudra meat puja kali durga ksyatria break alcohol intoxicant month offer)

 

also, "regulative principles of sudra" or "of (a) sudra"

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Quote:

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Theist

We must remeber however that that one need not follow these 4 as a prerequist to chanting Hare Krsna. There are no purificatory processes mandated before one can take up the name of Lord. If we want to be the disciple of a particular person like Srila Prabhupada then that is a different matter but we can be devotees (devotees lite) just no disciples of....

 

 

 

 

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"This is not quite proper with the new light shed on the situation. As long as one maintains the regulative principles of his varna, and remains in his proper ashram until it has its spiritual effect, they will get the perfection, so that means they are still under discipline, and thus a disciple."

 

"So the sudra eats meat once a month if they must. No disqualification. As long as it is done exactly as the Acharya authorizes."

 

 

 

Too much speculation. Do you have one example where Srila Prabhupada did not require a vow to follow the 4 regs. on the part of the aspirant who wanted to become his disciple? Can you sow me where he said even if they eat meat they are my disciples? I have never heard of such a thing. Why did he not tell the disciples that were sudras that they could eat meat once a month?

 

You are extrapolating from the varnashram conversation he had with some in Vrndavan and drawing conclusions that are not to be found there.

 

This spin of yours is a little dangerous if you cannot refine it more.

 

 

 

Conversation 3/14/74 Vrndavan

 

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

Hridayananda: What he kills.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

 

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

 

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.

 

Satsvarupa: Srila Prabhupada, is this school for women also, or just for men?

 

Prabhupada: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to cleanse home.

 

Satsvarupa: So they don’t attend varnasrama college.

 

Prabhupada: No, no. Varnasrama college especially meant for the brahmana, kshatriya and vaisya. Those who are not fit for education, they are sudras. That’s all. Or those who are reluctant to take education—sudra means. That’s all. They should assist the higher class.

 

Hridayananda: Would the brahmanas learn Sanskrit?

 

Prabhupada: Eh? Not necessarily.

 

Hridayananda: Not necessarily. Just more philosophy.

 

Prabhupada: Just like I am translating all the books, similarly, any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to learn Sanskrit. Why?

 

Hridayananda: Not necessary. So in this varnasrama college there would be two divisions, varna and asr... Learning a materia...

 

Prabhupada: First of all varna. And asrama, then, when the varna is perfectly in order, then asrama. Asrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varna is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they’re on the animals. If varna is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varna is working perfectly, then we give them asrama. Varnasrama. That is later on.

 

Hridayananda: First they should be taught a skill.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. First of all, the whole society must be divided into four varnas. Otherwise, there will be chaotic condition. That is what is the position now. What is he, what he has to do, one does not know. And there are so many unemployment. But if you organize the society into varnas, there will be no question of unemployment.

 

Hridayananda: But from the very beginning there should be taught

Bhagavad-gita and...

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Hridayananda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gita?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varnasrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Krishna conscious men, we are above varnasrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody’s shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, “Oh, you cannot do. Just see.” Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varna and asrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He, he was perfect Vaishnava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, “Oh, I am now become Vaishnava. I cannot kill.” What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakshas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yaksha-raja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that “You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakshas. So you can take some benediction from me.” He said, “That’s all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Krishna. That’s all.” This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yaksha-raja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, “Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Krishna.” This is Vaishnava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Krishna. Similarly, even if we take to varnasrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Krishna says, maya srishtam. “I have inaugurated.” But Krishna has nothing to do with varnasrama. Similarly, if we act as varnasrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varnasrama.

 

Hridayananda: Prabhupada, can you say something about the training for a brahmana.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. They are satyam samah damah. He must be truthful, he must control the senses, control the mind... samo damah,... He must be tolerant. He should not be agitated in trifle matters. Satyam samo damah saucam. He must be always clean. Three times he must take bath at least. All the clothing, all, everything is clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know all what is what, knowledge, and practical application, and firm faith in Krishna. This is brahmana.

 

Hridayananda: So what kind of practical work could we engage them in?

 

Prabhupada: They’ll be teaching. They’ll be all teachers.

 

Hridayananda: Oh, they’ll be teachers.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like Dronacarya. He was brahmana, but he was teaching military art to the Pandavas. General teacher class will be the brahmanas. It doesn’t matter what he’s teaching. But teaching, perfectly teaching, how to become a military man. Arjuna’s fighting was due to Dronacarya. He learned it from Dronacarya. He was a brahmana. But because he took the position of a teacher, he thought very perfectly. A brahmana should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If requires, he’ll become teacher. This is brahmana.

 

Hridayananda: So brahmana can teach how to fight?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmana means intelligent, brain. So in intelligent brain one can learn anything and teach anything.

 

Satsvarupa: This is all very new.

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Satsvarupa: This is very new. It seems there’ll be many difficulties. So we should try to start this school.

 

Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is it very difficult?

 

Satsvarupa: Yes, we have to... No, we have to learn, though.

 

Prabhupada: Then similarly, like that. Like that. I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop the floor.

 

Satsvarupa: Then it becomes easy.

 

Prabhupada: But I must know everything because I am a teacher.

 

Hridayananda: So, for example, if I become a teacher at varnasrama, say, the first teacher at the varnasrama college, then I have to also become expert at how to fight, how to...

 

Prabhupada: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varnasrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

 

Vishnujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brahmanas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Vishnujana: And they could travel around and teach others how to do that as well.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That’s right. He is brahmana, but he’s teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing.

 

Hridayananda: It’s not that one teacher has to teach everything.

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hridayananda: Oh, I see. So a brahmana teacher should become expert in a particular subject and then teach that.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hridayananda: Oh. It’s very exciting, Prabhupada, because all the, at the present time in the...

 

Prabhupada: No, the thing is that actually, at the present moment, they are sudras or less than sudras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world. It doesn’t matter whether it is western or eastern. That is the position. So unless they are trained up, so the society’s already in chaos, and it will go on still more in chaos, chaos. It will be hell. How people will live? And these rascals are being elected as government men, and they’re only making budget how to tax. So one side, there is no rain; one side, there is no rice, especially in India; and one side, heavy tax. So they’ll be all confused. They have already become confused. So in the confusion state it will be very difficult to make them Krishna conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given.

 

Vishnujana: Preliminary.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That they should not be in chaos and confusion.

Otherwise, how the brain will work?

 

Vishnujana: Yes. No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Our main aim is how to give them Krishna consciousness. But if they are already disturbed in every respect, then how they’ll take it? Therefore we are taking these subjects, to help him to come to the Krishna consciousness. And this is the method—varnasrama.

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

 

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hridayananda: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

 

Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

 

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kshatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun. Just like formerly, parivraja, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on the street. There was no aeroplane or... Or he did not use it. Does it mean that I shall have to follow that? I must take the jet engine. If it is available. If somebody criticizes, “Oh, Caitanya Mahaprabhu walked on leg and you are travelling in the jet plane?” Shall I have to take that ideal? These are rascaldom. When you have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility. That’s all. Now I have got the facility of the talking in microphone, and... So why should I not take it? It will be recorded. It will be heard by so many others. I am speaking to four, five men. It can be heard by a big crowd of four hundred men.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Groundbreaking conversation.

 

Note this part.

 

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hridayananda: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription:

 

And there is another conversation where this same topic is mentioned and he says "not that we encourage this, but if they need, we give them facility."

 

Which implies being prepared to facilitate all comers according to the dictates of the acharya.

 

Devi Pujas and all.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

So preaching big philosophy to neophytes who have no idea whats being spoken, and then going out and having a few beers is a no no?

 

http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

[bhaktatraveler]

Nothing can go bad if you just do as spiritual Father has said. No one did. Congregations in all centers refussed. The leaders, whom latter become Zoned-out were the same then as now. All bad.....

 

Not me, I knew DVD from BG. and Caitya Guru. Why not all of you too? You as a hole have fought with me for yrs on this subject, 34 in fact and counting. I have always had it right and am not a 'psychotic' as some in Alachua would say because I dared to chalenge(in writing on the internet) a female TP of all things.

 

Not kosher. DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD, DVD,

 

This is from two days before the first one I put up.

 

 

740312mw.vrn

 

Prabhupada: ...it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they’ll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti... Unless they take to Krishna consciousness, they’ll not be saved. The varnasrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varnasrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brahmana; one class, kshatriya; one class, vaisya; and one class, sudra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the sudras.

 

Passerby: Jayo!

 

Prabhupada: Hare Krishna.

 

Bhagavan: Are sudras supposed to take sannyasa also?

 

Prabhupada: No, why?

 

Bhagavan: Sudras...

 

Prabhupada: Those who are sudras, they should not be allowed to take sannyasa. Only those who are qualified brahmanas, they’ll be allowed to take sannyasa.

 

Bhagavan: Kshatriyas used to take sannyasa too?

 

Prabhupada: Kshatriyas... Some of them. Not all.

 

Guru dasa: Yudhishthira Maharaja?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Guru dasa: Yudhishthira Maharaja.

 

Prabhupada: They did not take sannyasa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyasa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they’ll think, “Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyasi.” You see? “Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brahmana.” No. There must be regular training. Hare Krishna.

Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, in a varnasrama society is...

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Jagadisa: In a varnasrama society, are most of the citizens sudras?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Jagadisa: Are the majority of citizens sudras? In a varnasrama society?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. The number of sudras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post-graduates, they’re less. Others are big, number bigger.

 

Bhagavan: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone’s life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyasa.

 

Prabhupada: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn’t matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brahmanas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kshatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaisya. And the balance, they’re all sudras. This is the division. You... Everywhere you’ll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, sudra. That’s all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that “Give me second initiation, a sacred thread.” And after getting it, business finished: “Now I’m liberated. Let me eat and sleep.” This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighas of land, and I have calculated in Mayapura, setting aside twenty bighas for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty bighas of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated. How much you can...?

 

Bhagavan: Fifteen hundred.

 

Prabhupada: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he’ll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati duhkha-ha. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Krishna. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varnasrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

Hridayananda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

 

Prabhupada: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Krishna. Krishna was acting as a kshatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaisya. But Krishna is neither kshatriya nor, nor brahmana. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaisya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kshatriya. He was marrying as a kshatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kshatriya, sometimes as vaisya, but He’s neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna...

 

Nitai: Srila Prabhupada?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Nitai: What should the kshatriyas be taught?

 

Prabhupada: Kshatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kshatriya’s business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, “Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna...” No. They must come forward. “Yes, we are prepared to fight.” That is kshatriya.

 

 

 

 

Lead, follow or get out of the way and let me do the job that is my service and varna.

 

CB-r

[theist]

Srila Prabhupada is talking about society and varnasin society in general. These conversations have nothing to do with the demands he places on thise few that want a guru disciple relationship with him. Can you not see the difference?

 

Oh forget it. You think you have a mission so get on with it and we will see if there are any worthy results that follow.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

So preaching big philosophy to neophytes who have no idea whats being spoken, and then going out and having a few beers is a no no?

 

http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

 

 

 

You know, if that is how you want to proceed with your life and at the same time render vaiable service to the sankirtan/DVD movement, then I will find a sutible place for you. With your cooperation. Freely given.

 

I will engage Muslim, Vaisnava, Christian, Budhist, neofite, Jew, madhyam, utama, sannyasa, vaisya, brahman, cat, cow, oxen, homosex, chandala, cobbler, street sweeper, ksatriya, carpenter, cook, black smith, horse, riksha wala, 10th class dog......

 

Then way would I discriminate against you?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[Beggar]

 

You know, if that is how you want to proceed with your life and at the same time render vaiable service to the sankirtan/DVD movement, then I will find a sutible place for you. With your cooperation. Freely given.

 

I will engage Muslim, Vaisnava, Christian, Budhist, neofite, Jew, madhyam, utama, sannyasa, vaisya, brahman, cat, cow, oxen, homosex, chandala, cobbler, street sweeper, ksatriya, carpenter, cook, black smith, horse, riksha wala, 10th class dog......

 

Then way would I discriminate against you?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

Do you really think that I would be so sarcastic about myself? That doesn't mean I'm not low class, not by a long shot.

Hari bol, Bhakta Mortimer C. Beggar III

http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Srila Prabhupada is talking about society and varnasin society in general. These conversations have nothing to do with the demands he places on thise few that want a guru disciple relationship with him. Can you not see the difference?

 

Oh forget it. You think you have a mission so get on with it and we will see if there are any worthy results that follow.

 

 

When clearly ask, pointedly, 'WHERE' this will be done Prabhupada says in our centers. I haven't a problem with these words, you do. Read the purport below, if I'm lying, I'm dying.

 

Prabhupada repeated DVD for over 3yrs up the point of samadhi almost. The BG, SB is full of the same instructions talked about in these first ground braking instructions for introduction into ISKCON cosmology, in 1974.

 

 

SB 8.2.30

 

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

 

PURPORT

In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krishna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krishna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.

 

asvamedham gavalambham

sannyasam pala-paitrikam

devarena sutotpattim

kalau panca vivarjayet

[Cc. Adi 17.164]

(Brahma-vaivarta Purana)

 

 

From this we can understand that in this age the sannyasa-asrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyasa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya advised Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyasa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyasa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyasa. There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyasa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the asrama where sex is allowed, namely the grihastha-asrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of maya. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Krishna, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a grihastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore recommended, sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. One may stay in whichever asrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyasa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the grihastha-asrama. But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyasa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyasa is not suitable, one may enter the grihastha-asrama and fight maya with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.

 

 

 

This would have stoped the Tamal take over, at the root(74) before it spread to a zoned-out acharya fiasco and throught he movement into the deep mire. DVD is the only way out. Ksatriya must lead all material activities of the movement and put the brahman varna up right.

 

 

Hare Krsna, Catrubahu das Bhakti-raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Do you really think that I would be so sarcastic about myself? That doesn't mean I'm not low class, not by a long shot.

Hari bol, Bhakta Mortimer C. Beggar III

http://home.comcast.net/~linkman00/tv/Twilight_Zone.mp3

 

 

If you were jokeing then I'm laughing. It's the internet, I cann't see your eyes nor hear you voice. Whoops, I'm deef anyway. But I can look you in the eye, still. And read lips a little.

 

There is a point though, that this is for all that WILL it. But the Vaisnava will lead, as spiritual head of everyone. Srila Prabhupada.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

I have always had it right and am not a 'psychotic' as some in Alachua would say

Why doesn't that surprise me ?

 

Just kidding, I couldn't resist the joke , but it does make me think of my concerns that no certifiably crazy demoniac persons get in positions of power in your DVD movement. How this all will be implemented in your society will be interesting. What is the progress anyway, are you guys screaming at the wind or do you have actual traction, at least in Alachua?