Regulative Principles Mandatory?

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Why doesn't that surprise me ?

 

Just kidding, I couldn't resist the joke , but it does make me think of my concerns that no certifiably crazy demoniac persons get in positions of power in your DVD movement. How this all will be implemented in your society will be interesting. What is the progress anyway, are you guys screaming at the wind or do you have actual traction, at least in Alachua?

 

 

 

One thing I do not like, is being taken advantage of when I reveal my heart or the truth. It is just demoniac:mad: and I don't like the continued discription base on advantage taken:mad2:

 

No, no place ever with any devotee save and except two in 34 yrs. How 'bout those stitistics?

 

Not you either!

 

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

One thing I do not like, is being taken advantage of when I reveal my heart or the truth. It is just demoniac:mad: and I don't like the continued discription base on advantage taken:mad2:

 

No, no place ever with any devotee save and except two in 34 yrs. How 'bout those stitistics?

 

Not you either!

 

 

CB-r

 

Who is taking advantage of you? It was a joke.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Why doesn't that surprise me ?

 

Just kidding, I couldn't resist the joke , but it does make me think of my concerns that no certifiably crazy demoniac persons get in positions of power in your DVD movement. How this all will be implemented in your society will be interesting. What is the progress anyway, are you guys screaming at the wind or do you have actual traction, at least in Alachua?

It will be implemented more and more, the more people are inspired to focus on this subject when mentioned in the books because they think they can gain from understanding it.

 

It was already implemented. Srila Prabhupada had at least a skelleton crew of DVD, including himself as Cheif of each Varna, and at least a backbone crew who were more or less exemplifying their varnas. The ashram part was a little more sketchy, suffice to say most were by qualification bramacari or grhasta.

 

The movement of a majority of disciples into positions they were not qualified for, seeking power, etc., after he left diminished and diluted the presence of the healthy varnasrama aspect of the mission. Those qualified were pushed out.

 

So as I see it, it is simply a preaching effort. To convince people by Srila Prabhupada's own words how important it is for advancement for neophytes, how seriously his own desire was that we do it, and how little heirarchal interference there actually is in becoming DVD conscious along side your Krsna Consciousness. Just read and apply. And thats all a person needs to hear I believe, because once they HEAR, you can be sure they are being arranged by Sri Paramatma to be at the right place at the right time with the right people to live it out and realize it.

 

I am beginning to see some nice "coincidences" and serendipitous arrangements being made here in the Alachua area which are definitely fruit born from DVD preaching. For most devotees who are struggling to reconcile their material desires within a community where there is an undercurrent of shame and guilt for "not being on the highest transcendental platform like all the pure brahmins", and thus neglect and lack of opportunities, the DVD concept is something they can truly relate to in a practical way, as if a there could be a solution to their problems.

 

It is actually a sensitive subject over all and speaking of it can bring up alot of emotion for devotees, so I figure it is enough to just get someone's interest piqued, with a casual mention or short chat, and then point to Srila Prabhupada and get out of the way.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Why doesn't that surprise me ?

 

Just kidding, I couldn't resist the joke , but it does make me think of my concerns that no certifiably crazy demoniac persons get in positions of power in your DVD movement. How this all will be implemented in your society will be interesting. What is the progress anyway, are you guys screaming at the wind or do you have actual traction, at least in Alachua?

 

 

This is a wound to me, not a joke. You should have seen that! I spent time and energy and heart presenting a reqested critic of Alachua temple management. I used many references from Srila Prabhupada and spoke the absolute truth about the situation, my hole family was insulted repeatedly by this temple when we first got here. No, not a joke.

 

The same happens on line. I do not make anything up, but you and the dissenters, those adverse to the guru, naysayers and more will make jokes or one way or another divert the conversation away from the point of hole, hearted agreement. What is it? You have been cheated by yourselves for 34 yrs as to what ISKCON is. And thereby cheating others.

 

I'm very stupid sometimes that I would actually reveal my heart to them(devotees) because they have rocks for hearts, all hard. Stupid Stupid Stupid. You will get only silver now.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

For most devotees who are struggling to reconcile their material desires within a community where there is an undercurrent of shame and guilt for "not being on the highest transcendental platform like all the pure brahmins", and thus neglect and lack of opportunities, the DVD concept is something they can truly relate to in a practical way, as if a there could be a solution to their problems.

That sounds very positive, Prabhu.

[brajeshwara das]

 

This is a wound to me, not a joke. You should have seen that! I spent time and energy and heart presenting a reqested critic of Alachua temple management. I used many references from Srila Prabhupada and spoke the absolute truth about the situation, my hole family was insulted repeatedly by this temple when we first got here. No, not a joke.

 

The same happens on line. I do not make anything up, but you and the dissenters, those adverse to the guru, naysayers and more will make jokes or one way or another divert the conversation away from the point of hole, hearted agreement. What is it? You have been cheated by yourselves for 34 yrs as to what ISKCON is. And thereby cheating others.

 

I'm very stupid sometimes that I would actually reveal my heart to them(devotees) because they have rocks for hearts, all hard. Stupid Stupid Stupid. You will get only silver now.

 

CB-r

 

I'm truly sorry you feel hurt. That wasn't my intention.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I'm truly sorry you feel hurt. That wasn't my intention.

 

 

I speak truth, and devotees treat me like I'm mad, as if it is fun and games. I've been abused continuously from day one about DVD in ISKCON and some times I just get a bit raw from it. Like old wounds that are not very healed. Tell what gurukuli has suffered for 34 yrs from the same abuse as he did in the schools?

 

The history of ISKCON says it all

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

I speak truth, and devotees treat me like I'm mad, as if it is fun and games. I've been abused continuously from day one about DVD in ISKCON and some times I just get a bit raw from it. Like old wounds that are not very healed. Tell what gurukuli has suffered for 34 yrs from the same abuse as he did in the schools?

 

The history of ISKCON says it all

 

CB-r

Sorry to hear you have had it so rough. Just remember we are all crazy, that's why we're here in this material world. If we were sane we would be like the other 99% of Jivas that chose to happily serve.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Sorry to hear you have had it so rough. Just remember we are all crazy, that's why we're here in this material world. If we were sane we would be like the other 99% of Jivas that chose to happily serve.

 

And because of insanity we were told to imbide a DVD life style that would by the following, automaticly reduce the insanity and increase the Bhakti. Bhakti is the end and DVD is the means. The means justifies the end.

 

CB-r

[gHari]

My perception has been that the four regs are natural; that is, the soul just doesn't desire these nonsense things. It's all that dust on the mirror of the heart.

 

I think it would be very wrong to think the regs aren't necesaary. We need to know where the road is, and acknowledge when we're off course.

[Beggar]

A

[theist]

One symptom of Messiah syndrome is that every criticism is taken in the spirit of Martyrdom. The feeling of persecution is seen as a validation of the Messiah status.

 

The Hare Krsna mantra is the present Messiah for the planet. The Lord Himself appearing as His name. To place the focus on getting people to follow the four regs. is misplaced. First chanting and then the power to overcome baser sense desires will follow. Without the name being held in it's proper position preaching the four regs. is just like spitting into the wind.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

My perception has been that the four regs are natural; that is, the soul just doesn't desire these nonsense things. It's all that dust on the mirror of the heart.

 

I think it would be very wrong to think the regs aren't necesaary. We need to know where the road is, and acknowledge when we're off course.

 

 

BG 4.26 purport

 

The four divisions of human life, namely the brahmacari, the grihastha, the vanaprastha, and the sannyasi, are all meant to help men become perfect yogis or transcendentalists. Since human life is not meant for our enjoying sense gratification like the animals, the four orders of human life are so arranged that one may become perfect in spiritual life. The brahmacaris, or students under the care of a bona fide spiritual master, control the mind by abstaining from sense gratification. They are referred to in this verse as sacrificing the hearing process and the senses in the fire of the controlled mind. A brahmacari hears only words concerning Krishna consciousness; hearing is the basic principle for understanding, and therefore the pure brahmacari engages fully in harer namanukirtanam—chanting and hearing the glories of the Lord. He restrains himself from the vibrations of material sounds, and his hearing is engaged in the transcendental sound vibration of Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. Similarly, the householders, who have some license for sense gratification, perform such acts with great restraint. Sex life, intoxication and meat eating are general tendencies of human society, but a regulated householder does not indulge in unrestricted sex life and other sense gratifications. Marriage on principles of religious life is therefore current in all civilized human society because that is the way for restricted sex life. This restricted, unattached sex life is also a kind of yajna because the restricted householder sacrifices his general tendency toward sense gratification for higher transcendental life.

 

 

Restriction is the key to restraint and regulation on the Royal road of Bhakti. This DVD is elimentally inter spaced throughout all the books. You just need the EYES to see.

 

If you do not like for yourself, no one would force you. Just like you cann't by force make everyone brahman. This abuse to the lower three varnas by those claiming brahman is disqualification of the top varna. It is not brahman.

 

CB-r

[bhaktatraveler]

 

One symptom of Messiah syndrome is that every criticism is taken in the spirit of Martyrdom. The feeling of persecution is seen as a validation of the Messiah status.

 

The Hare Krsna mantra is the present Messiah for the planet. The Lord Himself appearing as His name. To place the focus on getting people to follow the four regs. is misplaced. First chanting and then the power to overcome baser sense desires will follow. Without the name being held in it's proper position preaching the four regs. is just like spitting into the wind.

 

 

I have not said about anything Guru did not say first. That you have this problem with these conversations, is just the poison you drink daily as a food stuff.

 

You have a cold heart, sir no name 'Theist'

 

CB-r

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

One symptom of Messiah syndrome is that every criticism is taken in the spirit of Martyrdom. The feeling of persecution is seen as a validation of the Messiah status.

 

The Hare Krsna mantra is the present Messiah for the planet. The Lord Himself appearing as His name. To place the focus on getting people to follow the four regs. is misplaced. First chanting and then the power to overcome baser sense desires will follow. Without the name being held in it's proper position preaching the four regs. is just like spitting into the wind.

 

Who is placing the focus on "getting" people to follow the 4 regs? A statement which DIRECTLY implies the neglecting of the injunction to chant the holy name.

 

Who is not holding the name in its proper position. Among healthy spiritual people, such accusations are usually upheld by evidence or considered baseless, and such expositors are certainly wearing their own saliva all over their face.

 

Perhaps a POSITIVE contribution would be in order. Alot of hot air on that positivity thread I'd say judging from this Negative attack cloaked in awe and reverence of Sri Nama Prabhu.

[theist]

This thread is on the question of the MANDATORY following of the four reg.s in relation to devotional chanting and leading a devotional life and not on your DVD project fellows.

 

There is no purifacatory precess mandated before one can chant Hare Krsna. Varnashrama or no varnashrama, is not a consideration.

 

To further the progress towards suddha nama a lifestyle of simple living and high thinking become important. And again for that no formal varnashrama considerations apply.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

This thread is on the question of the MANDATORY following of the four reg.s in relation to devotional chanting and leading a devotional life and not on your DVD project fellows.

 

There is no purifacatory precess mandated before one can chant Hare Krsna. Varnashrama or no varnashrama, is not a consideration.

 

To further the progress towards suddha nama a lifestyle of simple living and high thinking become important. And again for that no formal varnashrama considerations apply.

See, what could have been a gentle reminder that we have strayed a bit off topic, is just turned to an opportunity to promote the Theist sampradaya, who's philosophy holds that all a person needs to be told is to Live simply and think highly, and Srila Prabhupada wasted years of his Lila describing in detail how this can be applied through understanding Varna and Ashram guna and karma.

 

And not to mention that the fact of what is mandatory exactly has been addressed, and some new information seems to be coming to light, but why let that stop the transcendental competition? Just ignore it and try to rain on the parade of Srila Prabhupada's disciples disseminating his vani.

 

Kinda risky I'd say.

 

Hare Krsna

 

PS, by the way, referring to preaching DVD as "our" project so sarcastically is another risky venture, as it was originally the project of some of the most elevated personalities to waltz through the backyard of your conditioned mind. Lest ye forget. According to the record it is THEIR project, I am helper.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

This thread is on the question of the MANDATORY following of the four reg.s in relation to devotional chanting and leading a devotional life and not on your DVD project fellows.

 

There is no purifacatory precess mandated before one can chant Hare Krsna. Varnashrama or no varnashrama, is not a consideration.

 

To further the progress towards suddha nama a lifestyle of simple living and high thinking become important. And again for that no formal varnashrama considerations apply.

 

Conversation 2/14/77 Mayapura

 

 

Satsvarupa: Lord Caitanya, when Ramananda Raya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Iha bahya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.

 

Satsvarupa: But don’t we do that also?

 

Prabhupada: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Krishna consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally took sannyasa. He rejected completely material. Nishkincana. But we are not going to be nishkincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bahya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.

 

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

 

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srishtam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

 

Hari-sauri: But in Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s practical preaching He only induced them to chant.

 

Prabhupada: That is not possible for ordinary man.

 

Hari-sauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?

 

Prabhupada: Hm?

 

Hari-sauri: He only introduced just the chanting.

 

Prabhupada: But who will chant? Who’ll chant?

 

Satsvarupa: But if they won’t chant, then neither will they train up in the varnasrama. That’s the easiest.

 

Prabhupada: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

Satsvarupa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasada...

 

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.

 

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

 

Hari-sauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varnasrama and like that.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridasa Thakura to chant, it is not possible.

 

Satsvarupa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Thakaha apanara kaje, Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Apanara kaja ki. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, sthane sthitah. And if they do not remain in the sthana, then the sahajiya’s chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyas also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyasa but he was given sannyasa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varnasrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varnasrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...

 

Satsvarupa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Brahmana, kshatriyas. There must be regular education.

 

Hari-sauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we’re training up as Vaishnavas...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?

 

Prabhupada: Vaishnava is not so easy. The varnasrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaishnava. It is not so easy to become Vaishnava.

 

Hari-sauri: No, it’s not a cheap thing.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava, is not so easy. If Vaishnava, to become Vaishnava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyasa is for the highest qualified brahmana. And simply by dressing like a Vaishnava, that is... fall down

 

 

 

 

 

So tell me again about you pure chanting? Who is chanting like Haridasa Thakur? Simple sinless living and high pure thinking, in a cave chanting. Who is chanting as such.

 

What makes you think chanting and DVD are separate?

 

CB-r

[Beggar]

 

What makes you think chanting and DVD are separate?

 

CB-r

Could you go further into detail and clarify this statement.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Could you go further into detail and clarify this statement.

 

 

 

No, you go read these DVD conversations, Then take the topic, Theist(?)'s post, my post, then your question and come back. Use them to defeat the statement or support it.

 

CB-r

[Bhakta Devarsi]

To recap some highlights.

 

 

But we are not going to be nishkincana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gita. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected everything, iha bahya. Rejected meaning, “I do not take much interest in this.” Bahya. “It is external.” He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way.

 

Our duty. For all those not yet fully attracted and following in the footsteps of Vraja Prema Bhaktas.

 

 

Satsvarupa: Varnasrama is not required.

 

Prabhupada: Not required. Caitanya Mahaprabhu denied, “I am not brahmana, I am not kshatriya, I am not this, I am not this.” He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gita, the catur-varnyam maya srishtam [bg. 4.13]. So we are Krishna..., preaching Krishna consciousness. It must be done.

 

He is quite simply preaching to incredibly puffed up people. He is giving the full siddhanta, while at the same time in a tactful way saying, SATS OL BUDDY, YOUR INTELLECT MAY BE A PREMA BHAKTA BEYOND THE VARNASRAMA SYSTEM, BUT JUST PREACH IT ANYWAY FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS, IT MUST BE DONE.

[Beggar]

 

... IT MUST BE DONE.

It is said that one must be empowered to preach nama sankirtan. Does one have to be empowered to preach DVD?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

It is said that one must be empowered to preach nama sankirtan. Does one have to be empowered to preach DVD?

 

The word Daivi should be a clue.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

It is said that one must be empowered to preach nama sankirtan. Does one have to be empowered to preach DVD?

 

 

 

Would you know if you SAW? Did Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers SEE Him as 'empowered' any time before Prabhupada left His body? I think not! What makes you think very many have EYES to see with? All big Gaudiya sannyasi's, but none could see Prabhupada. And now in 2007, who has sight?

 

Its not about personality, the IDEA and following has the power. It is in the doing, action, MOVEMENT. If your preaching is in line with parampara then empowerment is activated. Just like deviation deactivates power transmision from parampara.

 

You may have fault, but the message, if delivered in honesty and humility, as an intrument and not THE doer, then it will have effect. It is the frame of heart and mind, personal motivation. Or not, is best and most effective.

 

 

CB-r

[theist]