Sarva Dharman Parityajna (surrender to Varnasrama dharma)

[Bhakta Devarsi]

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranaga.

 

According to a very nice Guru, HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Lord Krishna asks us to surrender concocted dharma or concocted religion.

 

In the conversation below, in which he is clear and unequivocal, Srila Prabhupada relays that true dharma or sanatana dharma is the real religion and that this famous verse from the Bhagavad Gita, Bg. 18.66 "Sarva Dharman parityajna mam ekam saranam vraja" equals rejecting concocted dharma and surrendering unto Krsna, to which he comments "So take THAT dharma"

 

And what is THAT dharma?

 

He says it is the eternal dharma of the soul or Sanatana Dharma.

 

He then soon after equates Sanatana Dharma with VARNASRAMA DHARMA.

 

I have highlighted the major points in this conversation which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Surrendering directly to Krsna is accomplished by following Srila Prabhupada's exhortations to follow real dharma or varnasrama dharma.

 

Civilization and Transcendence, Ch. 3 Concocted Religion.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: This understanding is wanted. Krsna is eternal, we are eternal, and the place where we will live with Him and exchange our feelings—that is eternal. And the system which teaches this eternal system of reciprocation—that is called sanatana-dharma, the eternal religion. It is meant for everyone.

 

 

Pusta Krsna: How can people follow sanatana-dharma on a practical, daily basis?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: How are we doing it? Is it not practical? Krsna requests, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me, and offer your obeisances to Me." Where is the impracticality? Where is the difficulty? And Krsna promises, mam evaisyasy asamsaya: "If you do this, you'll come to Me. Without any doubt you'll come to Me." Why don't you do that?

Later Krsna requests, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [bg. 18.66] "Give up all varieties of concocted religion and simply surrender to Me." This is practical religion. Just surrender to Krsna and think, "I am a devotee of Krsna, a servant of Krsna." Take this simple approach. Then everything will be immediately done. Real dharma, real religion, means dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: [sB 6.3.19] what God says, that is dharma. Now, God says, "give up all this concocted dharma and just surrender unto Me." So take that dharma.

Why don't you take Krsna's instruction? Why do you go outside His instruction? That is the cause of all your troubles. You do not know the difference between this sanatana-dharma, the real, eternal religion, and your concocted dharma. If you take to some false religious system, then you suffer. But if you take to the real religious system, then you'll be happy.

Of course, nowadays India, like the rest of the world, has also given up the real religious system—sanatana-dharma, or varnasrama-dharma. In India they have accepted a hodgepodge thing called "Hinduism." So there is trouble. Everywhere, but in India especially, people should know that the real religion is this Vedic system. Vedic religion means varnasrama-dharma. Krsna says—God says—catur-varnyam maya srstam: [bg. 4.13] "For spiritual and material progress, the four occupational divisions of society have been set up by Me." So that is obligatory, just as the state law is obligatory. You cannot say, "I don't accept this law." No. You have to accept it if you want to have a happy life. You cannot become an outlaw. Then you'll not be happy. You'll be punished.

Now, God says, maya srstam: "This varnasrama system is given by Me." So how can we refuse to follow it? that means we are denying the real religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam: [sB 6.3.19] real dharma, real religion, means the order given by God. And God says, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: "For the proper management of human society, I have created these four social divisions, based on people's qualities and actions." So you have to accept it.

 

Pusta Krsna: This would be the prescription for all people?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: For everyone. At the head of the social body there must be the intelligent class of men, who will give advice; then there must be the administrative and protective class, the farming and mercantile class, and the laboring class. This is all given in the Bhagavad-gita: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra.

 

 

But when you fully surrender to Krsna, you can give up all the regulations pertaining to these four social classes. That is why Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya: [bg. 18.66] "In the ultimate issue, My instruction is to give up all religious formularies"—including even Vedic formularies—"and simply surrender to Me.Brahmana-dharma,ksatriya-dharma,""Hindu dharma," this dharma, that dharma—give all these up and simply surrender to Krsna, because the ultimate aim of dharma is to come to Krsna.

 

Hare Krsna

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna

 

Is Caturbahu dasa B.R. in the house?

 

I thought you might have access to that great conversation where Srila Prabhupada is telling his leading disciples through Hari-Sauri dasa something to the effect.

 

"NO, not Sarva Dharman Parityajna, not that you surrender and come to him right away, there is process etc..."

 

Saying this to identify their OBSTINATE REFUSAL to accept that there is a process within devotional service, and that they are already atma-nivedanam or fully surrendered.

 

It would go nice with the Topic, ya got it??

 

ys

 

BD

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Hare Krsna

 

Is Caturbahu dasa B.R. in the house?

 

I thought you might have access to that great conversation where Srila Prabhupada is telling his leading disciples through Hari-Sauri dasa something to the effect.

 

"NO, not Sarva Dharman Parityajna, not that you surrender and come to him right away, there is process etc..."

 

Saying this to identify their OBSTINATE REFUSAL to accept that there is a process within devotional service, and that they are already atma-nivedanam or fully surrendered.

 

It would go nice with the Topic, ya got it??

 

ys

 

BD

 

 

Yes, I looked it up yesterday. But it is such a tramendous conversation covering so much that I hesitate to post a snipit....So here is all of it. Another purport to the purport.

 

 

Conv 1/3/77 Mumbai

 

January 3, 1977, Bombay

770103r2.bom

 

Prabhupada: Why should be checked? This is the point.

 

Giriraja: I don’t think that the court will decide against us.

 

Prabhupada: If they decide that... There are many other court judgments in our favor. Then we must adopt civil disobedience. There is no other, second way. “Capriciously you cannot impose anything against the law, against the judgment. If you do, then we shall also disobey.” That should be the last resolve.

 

Hari-sauri: I remember when we were first beginning in Melbourne we were harassed very tremendously by the Council.

 

Prabhupada: Yes, I know that.

 

Hari-sauri: And they were putting us in jail and everything. And actually every court decision was against us too. But somehow or another, we just went out on sankirtana, every day distributing. We were getting booked, then fined. Then we wouldn’t pay the fines, so they would come and they would raid the temple at two o’clock in the morning and try and take us away to jail. And... It went on for months. And then in the end there was so much publicity about it... When we went to jail we were fasting. So there was so much publicity that the Council became very embarrassed that they couldn’t get rid of these boys and girls. They became so embarrassed that they stopped their harassment, and we carried on with our sankirtana activities. So actually, if we just determine just to stick with it, then there’s nothing they can do. What can they do to us unless they kill us? I don’t think they can do that.

 

Prabhupada: So your wife came... [break] This is Indian attitude. They do not care for the modern, civilized way of life, wasting time reading some nonsense book or going to the bars, the cinema, talking unnecessarily. They do not like. Those who are old style, they do not.

 

Gopala Krishna: No, I know many women who are very good cooks, I have tasted...

 

Prabhupada: They have no time to waste time in that way. They must be inclined that “I must prepare something nice so that my husband, my children or my, all friends will be very pleased.” That is their policy. I wanted that all our girls, they should be expert. And in America they are doing that. They should learn the art of cooking and prepare very nice foodstuffs, daily change of menu. And the children should be so trained up that no more birth. And that is life. They can produce hundreds of children, it doesn’t matter, but must be responsible that “The children should be saved. This is the last birth, no more birth. I’ll train the child in such a way that next life he’s going to Krishna, back to home, back to Godhead.” That is parent’s duty. Otherwise they should not become parent. That is contraceptive: “I am not fit to train my children in that way, so I shall not produce cats and dogs.” This is life. Why shall I produce cats and dogs? And Bhaktivinoda Thakura was grihastha, he produced Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. That is one... So in this way, if there is ideal institution, ideal mode of living, it is happy; everything is all right. That is grihastha. Produce Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. My Guru Maharaja used to say that “If I can produce krishna-bhakta as children, then I’m prepared to marry and produce hundreds of children.” And if we cannot, then we shall not produce even one children. Just like Vasudeva and Devaki in their previous life. What was the name? Their determination is “If we can get a child like God, then we shall produce. Otherwise we go on, tapasya. And when Krishna came, “What do you want?” “I want You.” “Who is like Me? I shall appear. I shall appear.” Anyway, we have got such huge establishment. Utilize it very properly everywhere. Another thing, that in Vrindavana... You remember the corner land, parikrama, last time? That is available by acquirement.

 

Gopala Krishna: The corner land to the left? Left of Gurukula? Or...

 

Prabhupada: No Gurukula... When we go to the chuni,(?) in front of...

 

Gopala Krishna: Ha, ha, ha. In that direction.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is agricultural land.

Gopala Krishna: Right opposite...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: Where that gate is.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Gopala Krishna: Right before the gate. That is... I was under the impression that belonged to some Christian man.

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is first. After crossing the road, the corner.

 

Hari-sauri: Where the parikrama path is.

 

Gopala Krishna: That is available for...?

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Gopala Krishna: Actually that would be good if we get that. It’s right next to our temple.

 

Prabhupada: So why not try for that? You can get it, I am sure.

 

Gopala Krishna: Okay. I’m going to Vrindavana in ten days.

 

Prabhupada: So if we can get that land, then we can divert our sewer in the land and utilize it for nice agricultural purposes. So instead of spending lakh of rupees for municipality, why not acquire that land?

 

Gopala Krishna: Acquire or buy? Acquire.

 

Prabhupada: Acquire means you have to pay, but government...

 

Gopala Krishna: Yes, but acquire usually takes a long time.

 

Prabhupada: Not long time. They’ll give us, because it is lying vacant.

 

Gopala Krishna: On the sewage problem in Vrindavana, we’ll have to make, do something quickly because even the Gurukula will not be able to open till we can...

 

Prabhupada: So you can do it immediately. But go on, purchase. It is lying vacant.

 

Gopala Krishna: Okay, that’s a very good idea. But we’ll still have to put a pipe underground coming out.

 

Prabhupada: That is not much, a few you, few yards only. And then introduce it and distribute that water, the whole land, and you will get good agricultural produce, very good. You can have very good business.

 

Hari-sauri: That can be used for agriculture?

 

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This water is very valuable for agricultural purpose. Nature has made in such a way. Aiye. All rejected water, you can utilize for agriculture.

 

Hari-sauri: I think in the West they have a law that says you can’t use human sewage.

 

Prabhupada: Kick out the West. We are doing here, in India. The municipality is doing that also in Vrindavana. Everywhere it is. In Calcutta there is called dhapara matha. Dhapara matha, formerly, anything produced in dhapara matha, that was not used for Deity. The superstition that “These vegetables are grown in filthy water, nasty...” But the vegetables were—cauliflower so big, so big. Everything, very luxuriantly, very tasteful and solid and big... Dhapara mathera (Bengali). They used to take. In Bengal, generally, the land is very fertile to produce vegetables. But this, the more the filthy things of the city were thrown there, and the cultivator used to grow very nice... That is utilization of this filthy water where there was sewer ditches formerly. In the village they diverted from the water in the field, and they got good crops. Generally they pass stool in the field. The cow’s, cow dung and man’s stool and everyone’s stool, they are wrapped gathered together in the rainy season. It became fertile. (Hindi)

 

Gopala Krishna: We will try for the land.

 

Prabhupada: Immediately. That is... That will be proper utilization. And in the court, unless they arrange for this dirty water out, why shall I pay tax? We shall stick to this position.

 

Gopala Krishna: We are sticking to it. The only harm to us is our Gurukula is going to get delayed now, the opening.

 

Prabhupada: But in the meantime you...

 

Gopala Krishna: Yes. And also we are running out of time because we can’t let water accumulate the way it is.

 

Prabhupada: So why you can’t? We have purchased that land. They have to...

 

Gopala Krishna: Yes, that is... We’ll try for that now.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That means... We have purchased that land. By force you can drive out? We are trying for that. Go to the court: “We have regularly purchased that land. What can be done? The municipality is not doing anything.” We have to fight like that.

 

Gopala Krishna: Yes, we are fighting.

 

Prabhupada: Why you should be afraid?

 

Gopala Krishna: No. I mean the water... We’re having all the trouble with the man in the back.

 

Prabhupada: That I am speaking, that he’s trouble. Why he should be giving us trouble? We purchased it. Take land; take money. And we have to purchase the land for this purpose. We are doing other arrangement; that is our mercy. But even that land... The municipality is obliged. Otherwise we can throw the water on the street. That is municipal’s duty. Otherwise why shall I pay tax? We shall do everything, we shall pay tax, and we shall suffer? What is this?

 

Gopala Krishna: We’re not paying tax. We are fighting it in the court.

Prabhupada: So in this way we have to fight. We should not be afraid for these rascals. Why you should be afraid? If they take to gunda-ism, we shall engage fifty gundas. “Come on. Let us see.” We have to maintain that spirit. Anaye yei kare prabhu anaye yei sahe.(?) The Rabindranath Tagore’s one poetry: “One who does wrong and suffers wrong, he is wrong.” One should not do anything wrong; one should not suffer anything wrong. That is human. If somebody does harm to me, wrong to me, I cannot suffer it. I shall not do any harm to anyone. That’s all right. But if you want to give me suffering, I must fight you. Why shall I suffer it? That is kshatriya spirit. Yuddhe capy apalayanam. “If you are challenging, ‘All right, come on,’ I accept this challenge.” We have to do like that. Now, this baniya spirit... Our Bhagatji, he purchased that land, and he’s afraid of him. What is this? Baniya spirit. But you are kshatriya.

 

Gopala Krishna: He has to... I’m not there all the time. They come to his house to...

 

Prabhupada: No, you argue with weapon. Beat them. We shall see. Go to the police that “This is nonsense.”

 

Gopala Krishna: Yeah, we’ve done that.

 

Prabhupada: So how is that?

 

Gopala Krishna: At the present moment he’s okay; he’s quiet.

 

Prabhupada: No, we should beat them. If somebody, atatayi...(?) You unnecessarily attack me; I must first kill you. That is my duty. Just like you have done here, Setterji. “I’ll bring my revolver.” So that is argumentum baculum. Here they wanted to put us into trouble, and he was in great trouble. So he came, he stood: “All right, come on. We shall fight. Bring my revolver.” He did that. So we have to do like that. Why shall I tolerate unnecessary injustice. Take that spirit. And in meantime apply. That is the solution. Why shall I spend for them? And unless they arrange for the sewer lines, we’re not going to pay tax.

 

Gopala Krishna: No, that’s our position.

 

Prabhupada: Let us go on, one court after another, one court after... If there is fight, we must be prepared to fight. (Hindi) If required, take

Setterji. He’ll help.

 

Setterji: Giriraja.

 

Giriraja: He’s very heroic. He was very heroic.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. He is kshatriya. (Hindi) You take him.

 

Gopala Krishna: Okay.

 

Setterji: In the Pakistan time, I fight forty, fifty men.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is kshatriya spirit. If you want to fight...

 

Setterji: Yes, always.

 

Prabhupada: You killed?

 

Setterji: Yes! So many times.

 

Prabhupada: So you have got experience. Huh?

 

Setterji: Sometimes I have walked on the dead body.

 

Prabhupada: Accha. So many dead bodies.

 

Setterji: I have seen about four men at the Pathan border, and the... One, this Korabhari, this tanga, Victoria,(?) came with six Muslims. And they challenged us. Very... “We will kill you.” We said, “Yes, come. You kill us; we will kill you. We fight.” We were ready at that time because revolver was there and the Kurari Kundasa was there. One, my friend, he was from Gujawala(?). He showed this Kundasa, and his head cut out, and he was running...

 

Prabhupada: Accha. Still running?

 

Setterji: Running! In Mahabharata(?) I was heard that body was running. But actually I have seen at that time. Head was cut and the body was running.

 

Prabhupada: Just see. (laughter) And then he fell down.

 

Setterji: Then he fell down. And of that, the other men went.

 

Prabhupada: That, how he was running with his mind, just see.

 

Gopala Krishna: With his mind.

 

Hari-sauri: The mind is in the heart.

 

Setterji: And we have saved all the fellows because...

 

Prabhupada: That, these rascals, they do not know...

 

Setterji: Because if they first, they put us, then our men will do it. So we do first.

 

Prabhupada: Killing.

 

Setterji: Yes. And the one man get out from the tanga, who first cut out his head. Then... And all the others ran out. (Hindi)

 

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Yes. (Hindi) Actually. It was also very disastrous.

 

Setterji: To fight... When fight is there, then...

 

Prabhupada: That is also Krishna conscious. You see how many demons are killed by Krishna.

 

Setterji: “Come on.” You challenge. You see? I’ve declared. If they challenge us I am ready, “Come on.” At the temple I challenged, “Come on! And you are 150. We don’t be afraid.”

 

Prabhupada: So... (Hindi) You have lost your kshatriya spirit.

 

Gopala Krishna: Having Setterji with us... When he has (?) relax for few days, rest for few days.

 

Prabhupada: Huh? If you have lost your kshatriya spirit, then take him.

 

Setterji: When he came with that barrister to give you to notice... (Hindi)

 

Prabhupada: (Hindi)... Mantrer(?) was so against, that “We must stop this.” Yes. I heard from that doctor that he was insulted by Seti, “Either Seti should go...” Like that, he has repeated me. He gave me hint that Seti... (Hindi) And you know that. The doctor, what is that doctor? He suggested. He’s Mantrer’s(?) man. Yes. Yes.

 

Setterji: He was also play the game in the land, that...

 

Prabhupada: He gave hint that “Give Mantrer two lakhs of rupees.” Yes. He was canvasser on behalf of Mantrer. He wanted two lakhs.

 

Setterji: Which we’ll not give you a single paisa. We will fight to you. “Come on.”

 

Prabhupada: So I think you make this point. But best thing is that if you can acquire that land, that is the best solution. We can utilize that land?

 

Gopala Krishna: Yes, for agriculture. That’s very good.

 

Prabhupada: It is just in the corner.

 

Gopala Krishna: We can have a small gosala there also.

 

Prabhupada: Anything we can do.

 

Setterji: Guruji, one night at the Pakistan front we stay in one place, and forty, fifty men came there, Kuraris and Kundasas. And another fellow which was with me, he was asked to be one of them. So when they came we recognized and we were ready with the revolvers and... The men came and they want to kill us, and we shoot them, five men dead, that time, and the rest ran away. And I took my child, this Brijmohan. He was five days old only. And I took my wife on the back...

 

Prabhupada: Five days?

 

Setterji: Five days. And I took my wife on the back and child in my hand, and the way was so difficult, and the darkness. And then we... Six miles...

 

Prabhupada: What about your other children and daughters?

 

Setterji: They were also with us.

 

Prabhupada: But they were grown up.

 

Setterji: My father took my..., that child who was one year old.

 

Prabhupada: Oh, father, mother, everyone, whole family. Then how trial they had.

 

Setterji: Six miles from there, and then we got a...

 

Gopala Krishna: A lot of these Punjabis had to go through this. During the Partition a lot of Punjabis had to face the fight and killing them off.

 

Prabhupada: No, in Bengal also there was fight.

 

Setterji: Huh? First Bengal? Was in Punjab.(?)

 

Prabhupada: Noakali there was great fight.

 

Setterji: After this war I cannot slept six months perfectly.

 

Prabhupada: Mind was so disturbed.

 

Setterji: Because these, that scenes, came always...

 

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. In vision.

 

Setterji: ...in dreams that “We were fighting; we were killing, they are killing; we are killing.”

 

Prabhupada: Just see how much struggle.

 

Setterji: Sometimes we wake up fighting, fighting.

 

Prabhupada: I had such experience. I had some experience in my childhood in 1911. I was thirteen years old. There was a riot. So our house was there in Mahatma Gandhi Road, and all sides Muhammadans. We are simply... The Mulliks and our house are simply some respectable men. Otherwise it was surrounded (surrendered?) by... That is called Kwalabala and Bastik, all Muhammadans, backside fully Muhammadans. So the riot was there, and I went to play. There is a square, Marker(?) Square. So I did not know the riot has taken place. I was coming home. So one of my class friends said that “You do not go to your house. That side is rioting now.” So because we are in the Muhammadan quarter, this fighting between two parties, that was going on. It is usual. So I thought it may be like that, that two gundas are fighting. I have seen. One gunda is stabbing the other gunda. I have seen. And they are pickpockets. When you are passing they would... I have seen, he is pickpocketing. (laughter) And they were our neighbor men. So I thought “It must be like that. This is going on.” But when I came the crossing of Mahatma Gandhi... At that time Harrison Road it was. Harrison Road and Holi..., Holiday, Halliday Street, yes. So one shop was being plundered. Putamat putamat putamat...” So I was child, a boy. I became... “What is this happening?” In the meantime all, my father, mother, members: “Oh, the child has not come.” They became so mad, they came out of home expecting, “Wherefrom the child will come?” So what could I do? When I saw, then I began to run towards our house, and one Muhammadan, he wanted to kill me. He took his lathi and actually... But I passed through some way or other. I was saved. So as soon as I came before our gate they got their life. So without speaking anything I went to the bedroom, and it was in the month of... It is winter. So I... Without saying anything I laid down, wrapping myself with quilt. So that time I was rising: “Is it ended? The riot is ended?” I was asking. I remember. So I would have been killed in that riot. So I have got experience of this riot. That is the first riot in Calcutta, in 1911.

 

Gopala Krishna: We haven’t had any such experience.

 

Setterji: I was passing on my car after Pakistan from Laul(?) and they put bomb, hand grenade, and the back glass broken, but we...

 

Prabhupada: Saved. Krishna saved. Unless Krishna saves, who can? So I had the experience of riot in Calcutta in my childhood.

 

Setterji: (Hindi)

 

Prabhupada: At any moment.

 

Setterji: “Who are afraid from death? Come on!” challenging... (Hindi)

 

Prabhupada: (Hindi) Soldiers, they forget that “We have to die.” They fight for... That is another madness. In Hindi it is called kunchariya.(?)

 

Setterji: Kunchariya. (Hindi) That is... Ah.

 

Prabhupada: Soldiers they do that. It is unnaturally he becomes. They become mad after killing. (Hindi) ...kshatriya spirit. They must be trained up kshatriyas. If he is baniya, he cannot do it.

 

Setterji: (Hindi) ...who have challenged us. So “Come on.”

 

Prabhupada: (laughs) So you are real husband. You gave protection to your wife.

 

Indian lady: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation for few sentences)

 

Prabhupada: Can you make one capati?

 

Hari-sauri: I should make it, or Palika or...?

 

 

Prabhupada: Yes, Palika. [break] ...business, that requires so many other things. But if you take to agriculture you can do it immediately. Krishi-go-rakshya. That... We are going to do that. Krishi... This is beginning, family life, maintenance, body and soul together. This is the beginning. Business is there when there is excess. Krishi-go-rakshya-vanijyam [bg. 18.44]. First of all you take care of the cows and engage yourself in agricultural products. Then when there is excess production, you trade, get some money for other purposes. But you... Agriculture means you work for producing food. That is wanted. Why immediately go to trade? Trade is required when there is excess product. Everything is there. Krishi-go-rakshya. And the krishi you can produce independently. You simply work. You have got your hands and legs. You till the ground and throw some seed, and it will come. One kilo seeds, you’ll get one hundred mounds. Then, when the product is excess, you trade. Everything is there. If you produce food grain, you’ll eat nicely and you’ll be strong. You’ll be able to work more. Our point is take Krishna’s instruction. Everything will be perfect. Not that Krishna is advising immediately sarva-dharman parityajya [bg. 18.66]. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you’ll do, that is perfect.

 

Giriraja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

 

Prabhupada: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture—that means you leave everything?

 

Giriraja: Well, what I have now.

 

Prabhupada: And what you have got? You are asking that “I require now food.” That means you have nothing. You have no food even. (aside:) Oh, you have brought it very quickly. Very nice. All right. [break] Live very comfortably, eat very comfortably and work. Chant Hare Krishna. Simply wasting time, the civilization... srama eva hi kevalam. Working hard and wasting valuable time of... Misguided. Andha yathandhair upaniya... When I think of their position... So every Vaishnava should be para-duhkha-duhkhi. So you like it?

 

Hari-sauri: For thirty paisa it’s very good. For the price it’s very good.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Gopala Krishna: Oh, it’s very good in other ways, full color. We’re going to sell it for a rupee, and...

 

Prabhupada: Kripambudhir yas tam aham prapadye. The unhappy for the unhappiness of others. They love them, unhappy without Krishna consciousness. This is a fact. The rascal may agree or not agree. That’s a fact. Ghostly haunted.

 

Gopala Krishna: Jaya, Srila Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada: Jaya. [break] Where is this temple? London? No.

 

Hari-sauri: Which one? Oh, that’s the German castle. Schloss Rettershof.

 

Prabhupada: Oh, France.

 

Hari-sauri: German.

 

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes. I think it is rightly done.

 

Hari-sauri: For mass distribution it’s very good, for mass distribution. How many copies he’s...

 

Prabhupada: One lakh. (end)

[Bhakta Devarsi]

This is a deep look into our Spiritual Masters desires as spoken.

 

This part especially seems relevant to the recent topic of conversation, and something all of us "high minded" folk should consider deeply.

 

 

Everything will be perfect. Not that Krishna is advising immediately sarva-dharman parityajya [bg. 18.66]. For that stage you are not prepared. That I know. But in your present stage what you’ll do, that is perfect.

 

Giriraja: You mean I should leave everything and start a farm?

 

Prabhupada: Where is the question of leaving? Agriculture... You take to agriculture—that means you leave everything?

 

Giriraja: Well, what I have now.

 

Prabhupada: And what you have got? You are asking that “I require now food.” That means you have nothing. You have no food even.

 

Where is the question of leaving anything. What have we got. We are going to the grocery store begging for food that is shipped from 1000's of miles away, using currency which is fiat inflated to bring about our enslavement, and we think we have something to lose.

 

This is not just Iskcon folks. It is the shape of everyone Srila Prabhupada tried to reach, including those his Godbrothers are valiantly reaching out to.

 

Anyone who doesn't understand DVD certainly does not understand what is Transcendental to DVD.

 

That much is sure.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [bg. 4.13]. Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.

 

But also:

 

There is no question of a devotee becoming a sudra if he does certain work. No, a devotee is never a sudra. He is transcendental. Because their activity is done in transcendental loving service unto the Lord, it is all on the transcendental plane, brahma bhuyaya kalpate [bg. 14.26]. You should not quit your present job, it is good service to Krsna. Although you may be working hard, you are always working for Krsna; so do not be confused about your position and never forget Krsna in any circumstances.

 

So basically from my perspective, Srila Swami Maharaj wanted to institute daiva varnashram dharma if possible, but it isn't clear to me that he wanted this withing ISKCON or as a greater goal for humanity at large. I don't know about anyone else but I hope to become a devotee, not a sudra, vaisha, ksatriya or brahmin.

 

I'll continue to look into this myself, but thanks Prabhu for starting the discussion. It needs some in-depth study definitely. Forgive me if I don't come to the same conclusions, not that I have solidified any yet.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

. If you keep the society in chaotic condition, any department, intellectual, administration, production, they'll be all topsy turvey, and there cannot be any peace in the world. So this Vedic scheme, varṇāśrama, is a very important scheme. If possible it should be introduced and taken up very seriously. That is one of the items of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, to reestablish the institution of varṇa and āśrama. Not by birth, but by qualification. Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [bg. 4.13]. Guṇa-karma, by quality. In India, the varṇāśrama is there, but it is not organized because the government does not take care. The government is imitating Western way of life, "There is no need of brāhmaṇa, there is no need of kṣatriya, simply śūdras." Everywhere this is the position, the śūdra population, kalau śūdra sambhavaḥ. In this age everyone is a śūdra. So it doesn't matter, everyone is born śūdra, but he should be trained up. Just like in our practical life we see that everyone is not born a scientist or engineer or lawyer. Everyone is born innocent, child, then he's trained up by the guardians. Similarly, there should be a training how to become brāhmaṇa, how to become kṣatriya, how to become vaiśya. And the government should see that everyone, as he is trained up, he is working according to his quality and occupational duty. Then there will be complete peace and harmony. That human society is perfect.

 

But also:

 

There is no question of a devotee becoming a sudra if he does certain work. No, a devotee is never a sudra. He is transcendental. Because their activity is done in transcendental loving service unto the Lord, it is all on the transcendental plane, brahma bhuyaya kalpate [bg. 14.26]. You should not quit your present job, it is good service to Krsna. Although you may be working hard, you are always working for Krsna; so do not be confused about your position and never forget Krsna in any circumstances.

 

So basically from my perspective, Srila Swami Maharaj wanted to institute daiva varnashram dharma if possible, but it isn't clear to me that he wanted this withing ISKCON or as a greater goal for humanity at large. I don't know about anyone else but I hope to become a devotee, not a sudra, vaisha, ksatriya or brahmin.

 

I'll continue to look into this myself, but thanks Prabhu for starting the discussion. It needs some in-depth study definitely. Forgive me if I don't come to the same conclusions, not that I have solidified any yet.

 

 

Prabhu I have posted the evidence to the question of whether or not in ISKCON now. I have post explanation as to varna verses devotion, we are devotee. Are you skimming?

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

Prabhu I have posted the evidence to the question of whether or not in ISKCON now. I have post explanation as to varna verses devotion, we are devotee. Are you skimming?

 

CB-r

 

That evidence is burried somewhere, can you look it up and post where Srila Swami Maharaj is saying the initiated disciples in ISKCON should consider themselves in the various varnas? He says they should take the roles but they are above the varnas, so considering yourself a śūdra or any other devotee doesn't seem in line.

 

Srila Swami Maharaj

 

 

The disciples are from many walks of life but are one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The fact that one of our boys was a construction worker does not mean that he belongs to the śūdra community. The śūdra community is the less intelligent class or illiterate class who have no information of the value of life. In America even the highest cultured and educated person can go to work as an ordinary construction worker because they accept the dignity of labor. So although a boy was working as a construction worker in America, he is not a śūdra.

 

Anyhow, I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, it again is implementation that I am wondering about. Another quote you'll appreciate:

 

 

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura...wanted to reestablish daiva-varṇāśrama. In daiva-varṇāśrama there cannot be acknowledgment of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the determining considerations are guṇa and karma, one's qualities and work. It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society.

[brajeshwara das]

My understanding of what Srila Swami Maharaj said is that for the benefit of society at large to grow to become Krishna Conscious, it needs to be broken down into the varnashram sections, but also that the devotees are not part of the varnas but play those roles depending on the service necessities. But just as we shouldn't equate ourselves with our bodies "I am a black man, I am a white man, I am a woman" etc. we shouldn't equate ourselves with a varna like "I am a ksatriya". This is a role we may take on to do the necessary service and display proper behavior to the public at large, but this is not who we are and is another misconception to be avoided in our seach for our eternal identity of servant of the Lord.

 

This is the way I harmonize the words of Srila Swami Maharaj. Please let me know how you think about this.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

My understanding of what Srila Swami Maharaj said is that for the benefit of society at large to grow to become Krishna Conscious, it needs to be broken down into the varnashram sections, but also that the devotees are not part of the varnas but play those roles depending on the service necessities. But just as we shouldn't equate ourselves with our bodies "I am a black man, I am a white man, I am a woman" etc. we shouldn't equate ourselves with a varna like "I am a ksatriya". This is a role we may take on to do the necessary service and display proper behavior to the public at large, but this is not who we are and is another misconception to be avoided in our seach for our eternal identity of servant of the Lord.

 

This is the way I harmonize the words of Srila Swami Maharaj. Please let me know how you think about this.

 

This is called a preaching technique. We were a bunch of drooling slobbering dogs. We cleaned up nice but couldn't maintain it because it wasn't what we REALLY wanted. So he mercifully TRIED to trick us into categorizing ourselves AS WE ACTUALLY WERE (ARE).

 

So then we could make ACTUAL spiritual advancement from there, instead of thinking we were pure advanced devotees already, and looking down on everyone else.

 

It really is this simple.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

This is called a preaching technique. We were a bunch of drooling slobbering dogs. We cleaned up nice but couldn't maintain it because it wasn't what we REALLY wanted. So he mercifully TRIED to trick us into categorizing ourselves AS WE ACTUALLY WERE (ARE).

 

So then we could make ACTUAL spiritual advancement from there, instead of thinking we were pure advanced devotees already, and looking down on everyone else.

 

It really is this simple.

 

Hare Krsna

I don't think it necessarily follows that just because you don't identify yourself in a varna means that you are puffed up and think you are above the varnas. I think it means you hold Bhakti to be the highest ideal, and have given up karma yoga as your means to the end. Those not on the path of bhakti should follow one of the other yogas laid out in Srimad Bhagavad Gita, right?

 

I personally find a lot to admire in the tenacity and single minded focus of mundane materialists, let alone real karma-yogis. If I had the determination some people have for aquiring material gain to put towards my spiritual life I would be much further on with it.

[Beggar]

 

This is called a preaching technique. We were a bunch of drooling slobbering dogs. We cleaned up nice but couldn't maintain it because it wasn't what we REALLY wanted. So he mercifully TRIED to trick us into categorizing ourselves AS WE ACTUALLY WERE (ARE).

 

So then we could make ACTUAL spiritual advancement from there, instead of thinking we were pure advanced devotees already, and looking down on everyone else.

 

It really is this simple.

 

Hare Krsna

The issues you bring up here are very complex. Your DVD paradigm is only part of the picture. There are many more questions and many more answers.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

The issues you bring up here are very complex. Your DVD paradigm is only part of the picture. There are many more questions and many more answers.

 

If you want to get simple, I have to eat. I will only eat Bhagavad prasadam. Where to get? Now I/we have to interact with all aspects of the material world. In all aspects of producing such. I would venture that 95% of the Western Vaisnava takes common milk or products, from the corrner store, what to speak of grain. I am not making a willing choice in this purchace, it is imposed by greater economic forces. But tamable with DVD.

 

So what to do? Be in the non-devotee world suffering the humiliation of not living the BG, SB, as examples or be with devotees making a world. I made my choice in 74, still the same choice. I came to Srila Prabhupada at the right time to be trained in Bhakti yoga through varna and asrama. No one, mostly, is doing, up to and including now. Not even responsible talk from those whom claim superior intelect. Or if they would stick there perverbial necks out, it is chopped by aversion and unwillingness.

 

Be willing, it COULD happen,

 

Stay unwilling/averce it COULD NEVER happen.

 

The point now is to start preaching DVD heavely so a future can unfold.

 

Our ability to eat, mate and defend as usual is frail at best. Ask Varaha in Mississippi, a farm neighbor to ISKCON farm there, how it was for Katrina. With government services cut, no access to the common staples. Difficult at best, for most in his area.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

 

<a& v]ja="" )="">sarva-dharmān parityajya</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""></a&>

 

<a& v]ja="" )="">

</a&>

 

<a& v]ja="" )=""> SYNONYMS</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> sarva-dharmān—all varieties of religion; parityajya—abandoning; mām—unto Me; ekam—only; śaraṇam—for surrender; vraja—go; aham—I; tvām—you; sarva—all; pāpebhyaḥ—from sinful reactions; mokṣayiṣyāmi—will deliver; mā—do not; śucaḥ—worry.</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> TRANSLATION</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> PURPORT</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""></a&>

 

<a& v]ja="" )=""> The Lord has described various kinds of knowledge and processes of religion—knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways different types of religion. Now, in summarizing Bhagavad-gītā, the Lord says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have been explained to him; he should simply surrender to Kṛṣṇa. That surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the Lord personally promises to protect him.

In the Seventh Chapter it was said that only one who has become free from all sinful reactions can take to the worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Thus one may think that unless he is free from all sinful reactions he cannot take to the surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one is not free from all sinful reactions, simply by the process of surrendering to Śrī Kṛṣṇa he is automatically freed. There is no need of strenuous effort to free oneself from sinful reactions. One should unhesitatingly accept Kṛṣṇa as the supreme savior of all living entities. With faith and love, one should surrender unto Him.

The process of surrender to Kṛṣṇa is described in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (11.676):

</a&>

 

<a& v]ja="" )=""> ānukūlyasya saṅkalpaḥ</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> prātikūlyasya varjanam</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> rakṣiṣyatīti viśvāso</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> goptṛtve varaṇaṁ tathā</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> ātma-nikṣepa-kārpaṇye</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""> ṣaḍ-vidhā śaraṇāgatiḥ</a&>

<a& v]ja="" )=""></a&>

 

<a& v]ja="" )=""> According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, all his activities are in vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Kṛṣṇa will protect him from all difficulties. There is no need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Kṛṣṇa will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should consider Kṛṣṇa the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of material nature. There are different processes of religion and purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Kṛṣṇa does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto Kṛṣṇa will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reactions.

One should be attracted by the beautiful vision of Kṛṣṇa. His name is Kṛṣṇa because He is all-attractive. One who becomes attracted by the beautiful, all-powerful, omnipotent vision of Kṛṣṇa is fortunate. There are different kinds of transcendentalists—some of them are attached to the impersonal Brahman vision, some of them are attracted by the Supersoul feature, etc., but one who is attracted to the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, above all, one who is attracted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Kṛṣṇa Himself, is the most perfect transcendentalist. In other words, devotional service to Kṛṣṇa, in full consciousness, is the most confidential part of knowledge, and this is the essence of the whole Bhagavad-gītā. Karma-yogīs, empiric philosophers, mystics and devotees are all called transcendentalists, but one who is a pure devotee is the best of all. The particular words used here, mā śucaḥ, "Don't fear, don't hesitate, don't worry," are very significant. One may be perplexed as to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and simply surrender unto Kṛṣṇa, but such worry is useless. [As-They-Surrender-Unto-Me ]

 

Not trying to prove a point at all, just wanted to clarify that </a&>sarva-dharmān parityajya is 'abandon all dharmas' not 'surrender to varnashram dharma'. The title of this thread is misleading.