Should Christians be friends with Hindus/Hare Krishnas/etc.?

[bija]

Sri Krsna Samhita (Essence of Srimad Bhagavatam)

by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

Chapter Nine

Achievement of the

Lotus Feet of Lord Krishna

 

 

 

TEXT 1

 

vyasena vraja-lilayam nitya-tattvam prakashitam

 

prapanca-janitam jnanam napnoti yat svarupakam

 

Shri Vyasadeva has explained the eternal truth while describing the pastimes of Vraja. This eternal truth is beyond the realm of material knowledge (see 2.41-43).

 

TEXT 2

 

jivasya siddha-sattayam bhasate tattvam uttamam

 

durata rahite shuddhe samadhau nirvikalpake

 

This supreme truth shines in the living entity's pure existence. This pure existence is attainable by conditioned souls through pure absolute samadhi, which vanquishes all impediments. There are two types of samadhi—artificial and absolute. The devotees accept natural samadhi as absolute and fabricated samadhi as artificial, regardless of whatever explanations the jnanis have. The soul is spiritual, therefore the qualities of self-knowledge and knowledge of other objects are naturally present in him. By the quality of self-knowledge, one can realize one's self. By the quality of knowing other objects, one can realize all other objects. Since such qualities are the constitutional nature of a living entity, where is the doubt that natural samadhi is absolute? A living entity does not require to take shelter of another instrument to understand the supreme object. Therefore this samadhi is faultless. But when one takes shelter of Sankhya-samadhi, which entails faulty or unnatural activities, it is known as artificial samadhi. The constitutional activities of the soul are called natural samadhi, for the mind has no jurisdiction in these activities. Natural samadhi is easy and free from misery. If one takes shelter of this samadhi, then the eternal truth is easily realized.

 

TEXT 3

 

maya-sutasya vishvasya cic-chayatvat samanata

 

cic-chaktyavishkrite karye samadhav api catmani

 

The pastimes of Vraja have been perceived and described through the process of natural samadhi, in the form of self-realization. Although the names, forms, qualities, and activities that are used to describe Vraja-lila appear almost mundane, that is only because the material world created by Maya is similar to its origin, Vaikuntha. Actually the soul's natural samadhi is a function of the spiritual potency. Whatever is perceived through natural samadhi is the ideal example for the material world, not imitation.

 

TEXT 4

 

tasmat tu vraja-bhavanam krishna-nama-gunatmanam

 

gunair jadyatmakaih shashvat sadrishyam upalakshyate

 

For this reason Krishna's names, qualities, and forms have a similarity to material names, qualities, and forms.

 

TEXT 5

 

svaprakasha svabhavo 'yam samadhih kathyate budhaih

 

ati-sukshma-svarupatvat samshayat sa vilupyate

 

Self-realization comes through self-illumination. Learned scholars call self-realization samadhi. This is very subtle. If there is a tinge of doubt, it is practically lost. Many truths such as the living entity's faith in his own existence, the living entity's eternal existence, and the living entity's relationship with the Absolute Truth are realized through natural samadhi. “Do I exist or not?” “Will I exist after death?” “Do I have any relationship with the Absolute Truth?” If one develops such argumentative doubts on the truth, then his natural samadhi becomes contaminated with prejudices and gradually forgotten. The truth can never be lost; it can only be forgotten. The soul's eternality and the existence of the Absolute Truth cannot be established by argument, because argument has no entrance into the realm beyond the material world. Self-realization is the only way to establish these truths. The devotees of Krishna always realize their eternal home, Vaikuntha, and their eternal occupation, service to Krishna, through natural samadhi, or self-realization. When a spirit soul practices natural samadhi, he progressively realizes the following subjects: (1) his self, (2) the insignificance of the self, (3) the supreme shelter, (4) the relationship between the shelter and the sheltered, (5) the beauty of the qualities, activities, and form of the shelter, (6) the relationships amongst the sheltered, (7) the abode of the shelter and the sheltered, (8) the absolute time factor, (9) the various moods of the sheltered, (10) the eternal pastimes between the shelter and the sheltered, (11) the energies of the shelter, (12) the advancement and degradation of the sheltered by the energies of the shelter, (13) the misidentification of the degraded sheltered, (14) the cultivation of devotional service for restoration of the degraded sheltered, and (15) the degraded sheltered regaining their constitutional position through devotional service. These fifteen along with other inconceivable truths are realized. The more material knowledge is mixed with one's natural samadhi, the less one can realize the truth. The more one is able to advance on the path of natural samadhi by controlling argument, which is like the minister of material knowledge, the more one can open the storehouse and acquire indescribable spiritual truths. The storehouse of Vaikuntha is always full. Lord Shri Krishnacandra, the lovable object of all, constantly invites the living entities through the open door of that storehouse.

 

TEXT 6

 

vayam tu samshayam tyaktva pashyamas tattvam uttamam

 

vrindavanantare ramye shri-krishna-rupa-saubhagam

 

We have destroyed the doubts that hinder samadhi, and we are seeing within the inner circle of Vaikuntha the beautiful form of Shri Krishna, who is the topmost personality of Vrindavana. If our samadhi would have been polluted with material knowledge and if the propensity for argument, after giving up mundane knowledge, would have intruded in the process of samadhi, then we would not have accepted the quality of variegatedness of the spiritual world and we would have proceeded only up to impersonal Brahman. But if material knowledge and argument was to some extent subdued and intruded only to some extent into the process of samadhi, then we would have accepted the eternal differentiation between the soul and the Supersoul, and nothing more. But since we have totally submerged this wicked propensity of doubting, we have attained complete realization of the beautiful form of the supreme shelter.

[bija]

 

Krsna is unlimited, and HE is dealing with each of us individually, so as children we are free to share our experiences of Him, our stories about Him with one another. As children we listen to our friends stories of Him and marvel of His deeds and activities. quote by Her Servant.

Thank you Prabhu for sharing once again your sweet realizations from the heart. All harmony can be found at the heart level, it is all acommodating. The nectar from the heart is so nice.

I so much appreciate your speaking from the heart.

 

Yeshua ki jaya!

[mahak]

The reason this thread enlivens me so is there is proper recognition of Mary. To quote myself (in a humbling way):

 

"By failing to recognize the intercession of Mary, those who claim to follow Lord Jesus Christ may fall quite short of tasting actual flavor of rasa. Many follow Him but cannot conceive of actually being with Him as He is. Even the beginnings of actual love of God, the peacefulness of spirit upon witnessing His activities (santa rasa), cannot be attained without seeing Him in relationship with His eternal associates. Without proper appreciation of Mother presenting Her Glorious Son to the world, there is no pleasing of the Son, the Father, or any of the associates. Home is never seen."

 

We have seen many threads that deal with Lord Jesus Christ, christianity, etc, but they often are quite dry, and even lead to the sectarianism that is wholly rejected by Lord Jesus Christ. But devotion and devotional service, the bhakti of the real Christian, is under the care of Mother Mary. The above paragraph may hold the answer; a philosophy that has no taste of rasa, relationship between the self and the Superself, is dry and not even worth much, except from a purely academic sense.

 

Today, I remember Mary of Axum, daughter of King Solomon, and tell the truest story I ever told:

 

www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/dd.html

 

Perehaps the Teachings of Mary of Axum should be written. As such:

 

Mary gave her first description of her newborn child.

 

 

"As you have witnessed, there is no danger for us. Just as you thought of yourself yesterday as our tormentor, today you falsely assume that you are our protector. Neither is the case. You are a servant and never a master, and though you resist the more powerful voice within you, such resistance does not affect the outcome. God is the Being you speak to when alone, and He always gives opportunity for action."

 

Dismas said, "Who are you to pretend to teach. I do not understand a thing you say."

 

Mary said kindly, "I, too, am a servant, yet my service is not wasted labor. I serve my Son here, who is the Light of the World. He entered my body on His own accord, and I accepted without protest. He is here for one reason only, and will be eternally glorified as the Deliverer of Dismas."

 

Dismas asked, "This infant is my salvation? This is nonsense. Since when does any supernatural being, god or otherwise, have anything to do with a desert thief?"

Mary said, "Many will always think of my Son as the salvation of the pious masses, but only a very few specially empowered people will take Him as personal and intimate without caring for the approval of the other breathing corpses. He has come not for the confident, but for those who are miserably lost, not unlike your self."

 

Hare Krsana, ys, mahaksadasa

 

ps, a special showing for her servant(s)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79NPHRRO2V4

[Guest guest]

Dear Bija,

PAMHO!

I hope you are fine.

Thanks for writing from your heart. I feel it. I didn't get the exact explaination you wanted to tell me, but I have felt your good vibes and intentions through various posts.

I was happy to see the Hari-Haraya deity and its spirit is close to my heart.

I feel at times that devotees end up wasting too much time in distinctions that haunt their beliefs and imply them on their deities as well. Of course, to distinct right from wrong and use of 'viveka' is 'shastra sammat' or accepted by shastras and is necessary quality. But some concentrate on too much distinction and it becomes a cause for unecessary argument. Takes away the charm of bhakti and love pulling oneself into 'intersampradayik' quarells.

 

Why I was asking about the deity and Shivashtakam composed by Lord Gauranga, is that, I recently sent this beautiful composition and the deity picture to my friend form the US who is a Prabhupada disciple.

He wrote me back that he spoke to his senior godbrother and came to conclusion this is all 'sahajiya' and 'mayavaad' and that this is contamination and not accepted to Prabhupada. And that i should not try to preach to him I wanted to know what other devotees think about this.

I guess the Gaudiya thoughts should not be against this, since this is Lord Gauranga's own words and the deity is installed in Navadvipa holy dhama.

And I guess it should be acceptable to Srila Prabhupada as well, contrary to what he said.

How do they decided this is 'accepted' or not to Srila Prabhupada when he didn't say that? I don't know.

Maybe Iskcon differs in their opinion on this? How? Its the same gaudya sampradaya. Or is it just another contradiction of philosopy or mood wthin one sampradaya's different sections? I just wanted to know for my information. Thanks.

 

regards,

 

YK

 

 

Yes YK that was me.

 

I was in the process I replying here to you ,and I accidentally wiped my whole post (it was a long one). I had some things I wanted to share with you, but unfortunately it is all gone now, and I will not be able to repeat what I just wrote as clearly.

 

I had written some nice realizations to share with you, spontaneously from my heart. And because it was written this way I cannot re-write it again to the same depth. Oh well...not meant to be. I am disappointed.

 

take care...bija (Nava).

[bija]

Dear yK, thanks for your kind words. I have felt your good vibes and nice nature also. I feel in my heart it is so essential to offer all respects to others...even those with vastly different realizations than oneself. Whilst we are in this conditioned realm there is always going to be some form of disharmony or other. But we live with the hope of oneday seeing things clearly, harmony in diversity. Till then it is best to take the lower position and offer all repects to others. Sure we will fail sometimes...but grace is sufficient for that.

 

In regards to your friend and his senior Godbrother, and their position on Lord Harihara, I cannot comment. I cannot say whether they are in some misunderstanding or what.

 

But many Gaudiya Vaisnava's do visit the site where Lord Harihara resides in Navadwipa and offer full respects. Why not...this is Lord Visnu and Lord Siva combined.

 

Lord Harihara video can also be viewed on the Naam-Yoga home page

 

To see video click on the above link, and at the forum page in the left pane click on the red All Videos and Audio link. There you will see several players. Go to the small green player and follow 04-Holy-Abodes-Videos -> 01-Navadvipa -> 01-Godruma -> 01-Harihara-Kshetra -> 001-Harihara.flv.

 

peace to you, bija

[HerServant]

 

The reason this thread enlivens me so is there is proper recognition of Mary. To quote myself (in a humbling way):

 

"By failing to recognize the intercession of Mary, those who claim to follow Lord Jesus Christ may fall quite short of tasting actual flavor of rasa. Many follow Him but cannot conceive of actually being with Him as He is. Even the beginnings of actual love of God, the peacefulness of spirit upon witnessing His activities (santa rasa), cannot be attained without seeing Him in relationship with His eternal associates. Without proper appreciation of Mother presenting Her Glorious Son to the world, there is no pleasing of the Son, the Father, or any of the associates. Home is never seen."

 

...

 

 

Hare Krsana, ys, mahaksadasa

 

ps, a special showing for her servant(s)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79NPHRRO2V4

 

Thanks Mahak prabhu! I came across your above quote several years ago while searching the net. Upon reading your realzations, I was immediately filled with joy!

 

The Marian cults in Catholicism say again and again that the path to the Father is the Son and the path to the Son is the Mother .. you must go to the Son by the Heart of the Mother!

 

Thanks for the Glories to Mary YouTube devotion. Sweet!

 

Hari Bol! Radhe Marie Ki Jai!

 

" Also, Mary is the representation of the energy of God. Either as internal energy Radharani or as external energy Durga, the energy of Godhead can be considered the mother of the living entities. But there is no clash between the Bible and the Vedas, simply some people formulate their personal ideas and cause quarrelings." -- Srila Prabhupada Letter to Sivananda NY April 19, 1968

[HerServant]

Mary, The Theotokos (God bearer) carried within her Him who cannot be contained.

 

"After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him." -- Matt. 3:16

 

Submersion in the water is the merging of the waking consciousness and the subconscious. In some sense this is the meaning of "love God with whole heart, mind, soul, strength". Every aspect of oneself, one's being is engaged in devotional service. No amount of yoga makes this happen, but rather, humble submission to the spiritual preceptor's directions. The spiritual preceptor can be present spiritually or physically. Therefore, to be baptized one must make a sincere attempt at following the spiritual preceptor in the ways of spiritual life. By grace of God, he will then become baptized.

 

When the baptized comes up (ascends), there appears an opening in the covering over the spiritual sky, and through that opening, the spiritual sky is visible. The spiritual sky's sun and sunlight, beyond bright, is penentrating. High up in a corner of the sky, a cloud can be seen. The cloud itself covers effulgence. The Holy Spirit in the form of a dove emerges from this cloud. The Holy Spirit dove's effulgence is at first covered, by a portion of the cloud's outer layer, then as it fully emerges, It is seen effulgent and descends. The Holy Spirit descends from the Cloud in the Spiritual sky directly into the heart of the living entity, thus he becomes "Twice Born".

 

The Holy Spirit has the power to take you with Him as He ascends back into the spiritual cloud which is the abode of God Himself.

 

"And the angel said to her in reply, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." - Luke 1:35

 

The word overshadow means "cloud covered".

 

Mary was taken by the Holy Spirit into the spiritual cloud prior to conceiving Her Son, the Savior Jesus. Therefore, She who contained the uncontainable conceived Jesus in the bridal chamber abode of God.

 

O Blessed and Glorious Theotokos, please intercede on my behalf that I may follow Your Son Jesus, childlike. May Your grace obtain for me that balm of love of God to annoint my senses and every action.

[Guest guest]

moderator's note: post removed

[Guest guest]

BOGUS christianity, along with BOGUS islam, BOGUS hindu, BOGUS Hare Krsna, all of these things are to be rejected at once by all sane people. Krsna demands this of all of us, "Give up all varities of religion and surrender to Me."

 

All churches that espouse BOGUS religiosity, party spirit sectarianism, tribalistic god worship, all these things have no value and should be neglected. However, the TRUE that comes from the Supreme Lord by whichever means he uses to reveal himself should be honored and maintained.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

I see the troll is back to urinate on any praise offered to a devotee he does not accept or understand.

 

I agree with Mahak (as usual). We should neglect all religious designations in favor of self & God realization. Neglect does not mean abolish as religious fanatics (the real enemies of God consciousness) suggest.

 

Krsna consciousness is not just one of negation. In fact that is just the preliminary stage to stop or slow the downward slide of the soul. To raise the soul it must be accompanied by positive acts of sadhana bhakti. Bowing down before the Lord, offering prayers, singing hymns or mantras of praise are some of the basic practices that should be encouraged throughout humanity irregardless of differences of form or ritual. Centralized Chrusches temples mosques etc. should be maintained for this purpose. Srila Prabhupada was greatly pleased and encouraged upon noting the abundance of churches when first arriving to Amercia

 

I remember a line in one of Prabhupada's purports where he states, "that one bowing down before the Lord advances as much as an advanced devotee doing service."

 

All these Christ haters as well as their demonic brothers the Krsna haters have absolutley no standing in authenticate spiritual life and should be avoided at all costs.

[theist]

I have a question on Catholocism. What is the difference between between praying to Patron Saints and demigod worship?

 

Her servant? bija? Anyone?

 

Thanks

[HerServant]

 

I have a question on Catholocism. What is the difference between between praying to Patron Saints and demigod worship?

 

Her servant? bija? Anyone?

 

Thanks

 

I will try to answer from my personal perspective and a small bit of official church teaching. The basic position of the church is that we don't pray to saints in place of God, but rather we pray to saints to carry our petitions and prayers to God.

 

To Catholics, devotion to a Saint is analagous to service of a living spiritual master. If one has true devotion to the saint, then one will accept this saint as a patron and follow this saint's footsteps faithfully.

 

At the highest level, we can contact Christ through the saint. In some sense this is kind of a "rasa" teaching, because each saint has a particular flavor that attracts members to their cult. This is particularly true for religious orders (Carmelites, Carthusians, Camaldolese, Franciscans, Salesians, Jesuits, Dominicans, Benedictines, Missionaries of Charity, etc.) in that the founder's (acharya) spirituality and life lay the foundation of spirituality for the order.

 

So in the case of devotion to Mother Teresa, one's personal devotion is particularly styled after her life, and the spirituality in her particular order.

 

Catholics believe Mary is a co-redemtrix and She has holds the position of the "highest saint". While many Catholic theologians (Aquinas) call Mary, "Divine Mother", church theology does not teach that she is equal to the Triune God, only that She is nearest to Him and attracts Him.

 

Marian devotion is widespread across all orders in the church and many orders consider their vocation to "become another Mary". In almost every Catholic church throughout the world therefore, there will be a murti of Mary. Also, very popular are the Holy Family (St. Joseph), and St. Anthony. St. Anthony chanted the name Mary at least 3000 times per day, in addition the prayers required by his spiritual office. His murti always shows him holding the Child Jesus. This is because Jesus would come to him as a child and allow St. Anthony to hold Him in his arms. Therefore, when I pray to St. Anthony, I am hoping to gain his intercession and help in assisting me, to become childlike, innocent, and simple enough to draw near to the tender Child Jesus.

 

"Mary's memories

Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son's side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life. Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel. Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary." -- ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE , John Paul II

 

From a Vaisnava perspective, I've heard it said that Krsna tries to give to His devotees but they'll take nothing from Him, wanting only to give everything back to Him. So He "tricks" them into getting His Love by way of allowing devotees to give their love to the spiritual masters.

[theist]

 

I will try to answer from my personal perspective and a small bit of official church teaching. The basic position of the church is that we don't pray to saints in place of God, but rather we pray to saints to carry our petitions and prayers to God.

 

To Catholics, devotion to a Saint is analagous to service of a living spiritual master. If one has true devotion to the saint, then one will accept this saint as a patron and follow this saint's footsteps faithfully.

 

This was my general feeling. I imagine the protestants would (do?) have a fit over this but it is an eternal principle to seek humble guidance from those more progressed on the devotional path. Even demigod worship is perfect if the goal is Krsna.

 

Thanks for that soul

Hare Krsna

[HerServant]

Today, Holy Thursday, the Christian world commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus.

 

Most historians fail to catch the significance of Jesus' "paschal sacrifice" though it is obvious and staring us right in the face. Some consider the priestly ritual of the Catholic religion largely a Pauline invention that propogated after Jesus.

 

This is not a fact. The celebration of the eucharist, (commemoration and rememberence of Jesus Life in the Paschal sacrifice last supper), was instituted by Jesus and developed independent of Paul. The chaldean, and syrian, syro malabar churches had no contact with St. Paul, and in fact the Thomas Christians in India practically had no contact with with the west for 200 years between 52AD and 250AD, yet had a priestly tradition and eucharistic tradition. So Paul cannot be "responsible" for this priestly institution. But rather, prove by history and facts, I will attempt to point out the absolute obvious and leave the rest to the reader.

 

The fact is, Jesus ended the bloodiest sacrificial, innocent bloodshed ritual of religion in history, and in order to end it, He Gave His Holy Life!

 

During Jesus' life on earth, Jewish priestly ritual performed the "sacrifice" of Passover. This consisted of each and every Jewish family being required by Law, to bring an innocent, spotless lamb to the priests to be slaughtered on the eve of Passover. After the slaughter, the flesh of the lamb had to be eaten and the blood had to be used in various ritualized ways. Even Vegetarian Essenes that were Jewish had to comply, and therefore, the Passover "Law" was almost a kind of curse for those practicing ahimsa because it demanded that massive amounts of innocent lamb's blood to be shed. Historical evidence suggests that Passover was a horrific, bloody event, wherein thousands upon thousands of lambs were slain. This event is an unquestionable historical fact, as is the old testament (covenant) scriptures that mandated its practice.

 

On this day, Holy Thursday, Jesus' sacrifice is remembered and His command of remembering Him in the breaking of the bread is celebrated. It is also, the Institution of the core priestly ritual of the Roman communion Catholic, Orthodox, and sacramental protestant (Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) catholic churches.

 

So now to point out the obvious:

 

 

Luke 22

 

1 Now the feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was drawing near,

2

and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking a way to put him to death, for they were afraid of the people.

3

Then Satan entered into Judas, the one surnamed Iscariot, who was counted among the Twelve,

4

and he went to the chief priests and temple guards to discuss a plan for handing him over to them.

5

They were pleased and agreed to pay him money.

6

He accepted their offer and sought a favorable opportunity to hand him over to them in the absence of a crowd.

 

Jesus was very popular. He could not just be lynched without a very big reason. If the religionist political wing wished to eliminate Jesus from their midst, then they needed a VERY BIG reason. One that could be used against Him to take away His popularity. Therefore, Judas conspired with the establishment to watch Jesus and find this big reason for marginalizing Jesus.

 

 

When the day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread arrived, the day for sacrificing the Passover lamb,

8

he sent out Peter and John, instructing them, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover."

9

They asked him, "Where do you want us to make the preparations?"

10

And he answered them, "When you go into the city, a man will meet you carrying a jar of water. Follow him into the house that he enters

11

and say to the master of the house, 'The teacher says to you, "Where is the guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?"'

12

He will show you a large upper room that is furnished. Make the preparations there."

13

Then they went off and found everything exactly as he had told them, and there they prepared the Passover.

14

When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles.

15

He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer,

16

for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God."

17

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, "Take this and share it among yourselves;

18

for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

19

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."

20

And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

 

 

There is the reason Judas was looking for! Jesus said "new covenant" !!! That meant Jesus was saying He had the authority to END PASSOVER's ANIMAL SACRIFICE" and replace it with Bread and Wine (fruit of the vine).

 

That is the reason Judas betrayed Him. Jesus ended the Law that required the innocent lambs be slaughtered, and He ended by giving Himself in their place! It is easy to see Judas' reaction: "Now Jesus, this you cannot do! You cannot end thousands of years of tradition. You cannot end the "Law" and establish a new one" This was the straw that broke the camels back.

 

That is why the Church teaches that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of Jesus. The Sacrifice of His Body and His Blood cannot be seperate or indifferent from this moment of uttering the words "this is My Body .. this is My Blood .. of the New Covenant". He Gave His Body and His Blood in the moment He uttered these words as He knew that by His establishing the new covenant Judas would immediately not accept, then hand Him over to be murdered! In other words, He knew by saying the bread was His Body and the wine was His Blood, it would cost His mortal self.

 

Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ .. the Lamb of God!

 

HerServant and yours.

[sanatan]

HerServant....nice, informative perspective on Good Friday (I remembered!).

 

The question I've had about the relationship of Judas to Jesus...is this a "pastime" in the same sense that Vaisnava accounts are, where the parties involved are playing roles in order to demonstrate and establish a great principle of truth?

 

Seems to me that it was...in order for Jesus to complete his mission, he had to have an antagonistic person near him who would commit the act of betrayal.

 

Of course, traditional Christianity portrays Judas as the ultimate symbol of evil, who now rots eternally in the deepest pit of hell.

 

What's your take?

 

All Glories to Lord Jesus Christ!

[mahak]

Lord Jesus Prays, "Forgive them, father, because they do not know what they are doing". Judas was a childhood friend of Lord Jesus Christ, perhaps his closest friend. This intimacy perhaps had the effect of having judas mistake his lord as an ordinary person, causing doubts. The doubts, according to historical records, were cleared as he threw the coins away and ended his life. The remorse of his action, combined with declared forgiveness given by both Father and Son insures us that judas is with his lord and friend. In the vedic world, we see similar forgiveness granted to severe offenders when remorse is co-inciding with removal of doubt, such as durvasas realization at the point of Lord Sudarsana Chakra, the conversion of Jagai and madai, and even the story of the suicide of Chota Haridas and the sweet devotional service he performed even after taking his own life.

 

Also, there is direct evidence from a work dated even prior to Paul that a priestly order was given as a sacrament by Lord Jesus Christ. It may be comparable to an acarya awarding sanyassi to one so inclined to missionary work and willing to adopt great vows of a greater degree than one who has just received initiation (baptism and confirmation). The original caTHOLICISM is not a creation of St Paul, and he is faultless in whatever criticism this writer may have against the secular church that has come to be. It is not the fault of St Paul that personal letters to those he administered to became a large portion of the bible as decided by the demigod worshipper Constantine and the worst pope in history, Sylvester. The letters are quite sweet, in fact, and a lot of nectar can be gleaned there. St Paul did not create a false church, that was sylvester and company.

 

The falsity is by censorship. Females were scholars in the time and p[lace of Lord Jesus Christ's appearance. They were the biographers and writers. Men followed the apprentice route, learning their life's work from their elder masters. St Peter probably was illeterate as he never needed academics. Paul was a letter writer, learned as a necessary part of his Roman civil servant duties. The scholars who followed Lord Jesus were Salome, the midwife who was with Jesus from birth to death, his mother Mary who, at five years of age, bewildered the rabbis of the great temple with her erudition, the queen of magdalia who is considered a whore by the despicable church, Didyamous Thomas who was a great architect, James, and a few others. The canonization of the bible was horrendous not because it featured the writings of obscure letters by paul to his followers in prominence, but because the works of the female scholars who recorded studiously all the works of Lord Jesus Christ were summarily burned. Mysogeny became as much of the philosophy of christianity as anything Lord Jesus Christ taught.

 

Lord Jesus also predicted this horrible injustice, saying (Paraphrased): "In the future, there will be many who, in my name, will baptize, heal the sick, even raise the dead. But I will say to them, I know you not, get away from me, you workers of iniquity, for you have failed to do the will of He who has sent Me."

 

In service to Lord Jesus Christ, I offer my humble praises to salome, Mary magdaline, mother mary, St therese avila and to all who have suffered greatly at the hands of a church that bears the name of Whom these saints have, nevertheless, offered great bhakti yoga to, fully accepting His Holy darsana.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[brajeshwara das]

 

HerServant....nice, informative perspective on Good Friday (I remembered!).

 

The question I've had about the relationship of Judas to Jesus...is this a "pastime" in the same sense that Vaisnava accounts are, where the parties involved are playing roles in order to demonstrate and establish a great principle of truth?

 

Seems to me that it was...in order for Jesus to complete his mission, he had to have an antagonistic person near him who would commit the act of betrayal.

 

Of course, traditional Christianity portrays Judas as the ultimate symbol of evil, who now rots eternally in the deepest pit of hell.

 

What's your take?

 

All Glories to Lord Jesus Christ!

 

Srila Guru Maharaj: Do you know of Judas in the Christian

teachings?

 

Disciple: Yes, he betrayed Jesus.

 

Srila Guru Maharaj: When Jesus was praying in the garden before

his crucifixion, Judas approached him with the scribes and priests in

order to betray him, identifying that Messiah with a kiss. Suddenly,

Jesus cast his glance towards Judas in such an impressive way – he

penetrated Judas. And Judas thought to himself, “I am caught, I shall

be responsible for Jesus Christ’s demise,” but still Jesus’ vision to me

was something more like: “I am exploiting you Judas. It is not that

you are exploiting me, rather I am utilising you as a traitor to show the

greatness of my life to the future world.”

 

Jesus has already said (at his last supper), “Amongst these

twelve disciples one will betray me.” He knew. Judas had been there

then and Jesus had cast his glance towards Judas. Then later, when

Judas came with the soldiers and scribes to the garden of Gethsemene

to capture him, Jesus had cast his glance towards Judas once again and

was thinking, “You think you are exploiting me for some money but I

am exploiting you for eternity. You have to stand out as a sinful

person against me, I knew you were a traitor, but I did not disclose

you. I still took you within my group of followers knowing full well

that I am exploiting you.” The look of Jesus was like that.

 

Judas was crazed. He threw away the sack of silver. He ran to

the authorities and said, “I have committed the worst sin, I cannot

tolerate it!”

 

Judas’ energy was drunk, his spirit was drawn. Just like in

Jujitsu, when someone attacks the opposition with great force, but the

opposition suddenly withdraws, causing the attacking person to fall on

their face – Judas found himself in that sort of position. Jesus was

exchanging love for betrayal. It was the sort of love that disarmed and

sent Judas mad. “I treated him so wickedly, yet his look is not one of

vindictiveness but of infinite gratitude. That sort of look Jesus cast

upon me.”

 

In the perfect vision, in the full-fledged consideration, every

atom is helping the Pastimes of Krishna. Whether it is direct or

indirect – and although it seems to be indirect at present – a deeper

vision will reveal that it is coming towards direct service.

[HerServant]

Thanks Mahak and Sanatan. I am in agreement with Mahak's response on Judas. My viewpoint is slightly different but I believe the same.

 

I take "word made flesh" of John's Gospel as the "formula" by which to understand the Gospels. Therefore, in Jesus' life we can find all vedic knowledge (the Word).

 

Judas indeed plays an important role. Sadly, in the Passion play, he gets to play "greed". But we can see as many sins going on in other disciples. Peter denies Jesus (3 times), others couldn't pray with Him in His most difficult moment (sloth) .. So this is the reason in a previous post, I mentioned that the Passion Play is like Bhagavad Gita 2:63 .. from lust anger, etc...

 

Sin is like a house of cards, or a steep slippery slope .. you can't just make a little slip, without expecting the whole consequence of sin to unfold.

 

So Judas gets to play original sin, something we all have in common with him .. aka greed/envy of God. Greed in Judas' story comes forth in the '30 pieces of silver' exchange for Jesus, and Judas shows envy when he dips in the same bowl as Jesus (he wants the same portion and position as Jesus).

 

Every person on the planet that is sinful starts by "being Judas"... at somepoint, Judas had to engage his senses in material activities, then attachment was formed, then from the attachment lust comes .. ka boom .. the whole house of cards falls down .. and this is portrayed in Jesus Lila. All manner of sin unleashes against Him just like BG 2:62-64.

 

In this regard, then Jesus represents jiva of all of humanity. Jiva's true identity is part and parcel child of God, but greed betrays (judas) pure jiva and pollutes then hands over to anger, clouded judgement, loss of rememberence, etc. (pharisees, pilate,) then bondage (chained to a post and beaten, attached to a cross) and death ensue (crucified).

 

This why we say all of our sins are crucifiying Jesus, and this is why we say He is shelter of all jivas. By His everlasting patience, He suffers along with us. As we move from the last supper to the crucifixion, we see that sin becomes darker and darker.

 

So the passion drama of Jesus lila in one aspect is teaching the effects of sin on the living entity. Just as BG Chapter 2 describes.

 

We also say Jesus bears the sins of the world. This is because this nature of sin is the same in anytime and for any person, that the sin is the same for any person. This is also why we say that if we sin today, we are Judas betraying, Peter denying, disciples fleeing, pharisees spitting and slapping, pilate's indifference, and the scourgers and crucifiers.

 

Now if we look as Jesus in the Divine drama, we also see all the vedic knowledge of spiritual master, .. 'equanimity is yoga', etc. and beyond. Beyond because, the culmination of His sacrifice is His offering of Himself to the Father on behalf of us .. no limits .. as we have seen, He is even rescuing the poor lambs from the slaughter. His heart is so wide open no limits or boundaries can be place on Him.

 

Finally, I must say from my heart of hearts, I could not understand the cross for decades. Why did He have to die?

 

The answer is "for us" because the human heart covered with sin is VERY HARD .. like a boulder. And if we can "look upon Him" in crucified form, and see Him as He Is, childlike and relating to His torturers as relatives He deeply deeply loves .. and seeing the tragedy of those relations not knowing they are murdering their very own "little one" ... then we can be saved .. because our hearts may finally open ..

 

Then we move from the vision of ourselves and to the vision of service of others ... real compassion and real empathy for the suffering human family emerges.

 

Then we can follow our spiritual master ... when everything about our former false ego self is stripped, when we endure with Christ the scourgings of our passions , all troublesome thorns of anxiety and worldly troubles rest upon our head, and carry the cross of human existance in service of to God to assist our fallen, bewildered and entangled human family, then we can be united with Christ and once and for all, our sin will be crucified forever.

 

For the Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born." - Mark 14:21

 

The above passage often is used to debate the fate of Judas. But here again, Judas is assisting Jesus in His teaching.

 

Judas here clearly shows that he is a devotee like us. He is really remorseful that he traded life with God for sin. And this is what WE do when we fall down .. we are all full of guilt after we sin, then we go running out from the presence of God and "hang ourselves"...

 

So Jesus is telling us, better for us if we don't let "greed" be born because its going to be an ugly fall down and wind up in self lynching.

 

Now the book of Acts indicate that Judas fell down .. so many historian/scholars have debated plenty that his suicide attempt failed! Our guilt hanging of ourselves after falling down too will fail .. the rope will break .. God will call us back again .. we'll get up and try to do better.

 

We look at the saints, and they often related to Judas as sort of an older child in Jesus' family ... that is .. as a child gets older, when he does something wrong.. he runs and hides ... but the younger the child, the most tender child will cry remorsefully right away .. the moment he does something wrong and will run back right away tearful to receive consolation.

 

So lets not hang ourselves for our offenses .. that will certainly punish others around us also .. lets become small and run back right away into the arms of our forgiver.

 

HerServant and yours . Harebol! Jesus Ki Jaya!

[HerServant]

Regarding the sins of the establishment church there are many .. I don't think I have the answers for all the political crap that goes on in organized religion. In fact it shocks me. I ask myself, are some of these people even reading the same scriptures as I?

 

I try my best to look through the flaws and see what is at the heart.

 

.. there is the sattvic and there is the tamasic and everything in between.

 

So when a "by the lettercatholic" disagrees with me .. I shrug and move on ... same for a "vaisnava" that lusts more after arguing every small principle of spiritual life, as opposed to just put intelligence aside and lets love God together by chanting Hare Krsna. The craziness is the same.

 

I have no doubt scriptures were hijacked by unqualified egoist devotees and edited , hacked etc. There are many examples .. the King James Bible threw out Macchabees, Sirach, etc.

MANY church fathers refer to the other "Gospels" as sacred, e.g. the Gospel of Thomas .. I don't buy into the demonizing of St Mary Magdelena, she was the first witness of the Resurrection .. There are other very interesting and inspiring books not in the bible.

 

But the Catholic church is NOT a sola scriptura church. We don't say that the Canonized scripture are the ONLY authoritive texts in the church. This is an area that the Church takes huge criticisms from "sola scriptura" protestants.

 

These sola scriptura protestant christians are also VERY Pauline centric in their arguments. The Catholic church rejects that position.

 

So in many ways Mahak prabhu .. " I feel 'ya" .. but I stay in the church because for me, as I've said, the real church is Mary, the saints, and the sacraments. When I walk into any catholic church in the world, it is a definite place of shelter for me .. the politics of the church cannot deny me the maha prasadam Jesus Holy Eucharist .. I hide in the shadows of the saints and cling to them to shelter me from religionists

 

as such, I have been fortunate and have encountered numerous saintly, priests and monks along my journey .. therefore, I am grateful for their shelter.

 

Thanks for your association. Peace peace peace.

 

HerServant and yours.

[brajeshwara das]

Dear HerServant,

 

I was just wondering how you celebrate Good Friday, and Easter. Just wanting some more nectar

[HerServant]

 

Dear HerServant,

 

I was just wondering how you celebrate Good Friday, and Easter. Just wanting some more nectar

 

Good Friday is spent quietly. I try to maintain a spiritual focus around the house. My daughter and I watched an excellent movie on the life of John Paul II. ( http://www.cbs.com/specials/pope/ ) . Today was the first time I'd seen it and I'd have to recommend it to our "transcendental entertainment" list. It is a very interesting movie for any and all.

 

As a family we try to maintain evening rosary (japa) in rememberence of Jesus life in the mysteries. Good Friday is a day of deeper reflection and rememberence of Jesus' passion.

 

I also played "blizzard ball" with my son .. its a game we made up here in midwest .. outdoor basketball in the snow and ice. He won.

 

On Easter we will go to church then visit grandma ..

 

All pretty ordinary activities ..

 

But as I reflect, in the ordinary, even amid chatter, it seems extra quiet today, Good Friday .. ... this is a day of interior silence.

[HerServant]

 

Srila Guru Maharaj: Do you know of Judas in the Christian

teachings?

 

Disciple: Yes, he betrayed Jesus.

 

Srila Guru Maharaj: When Jesus was praying in the garden before

his crucifixion, Judas approached him with the scribes and priests in

order to betray him, identifying that Messiah with a kiss. Suddenly,

Jesus cast his glance towards Judas in such an impressive way – he

penetrated Judas. And Judas thought to himself, “I am caught, I shall

be responsible for Jesus Christ’s demise,” but still Jesus’ vision to me

was something more like: “I am exploiting you Judas. It is not that

you are exploiting me, rather I am utilising you as a traitor to show the

greatness of my life to the future world.”

 

Jesus has already said (at his last supper), “Amongst these

twelve disciples one will betray me.” He knew. Judas had been there

then and Jesus had cast his glance towards Judas. Then later, when

Judas came with the soldiers and scribes to the garden of Gethsemene

to capture him, Jesus had cast his glance towards Judas once again and

was thinking, “You think you are exploiting me for some money but I

am exploiting you for eternity. You have to stand out as a sinful

person against me, I knew you were a traitor, but I did not disclose

you. I still took you within my group of followers knowing full well

that I am exploiting you.” The look of Jesus was like that.

 

Judas was crazed. He threw away the sack of silver. He ran to

the authorities and said, “I have committed the worst sin, I cannot

tolerate it!”

 

Judas’ energy was drunk, his spirit was drawn. Just like in

Jujitsu, when someone attacks the opposition with great force, but the

opposition suddenly withdraws, causing the attacking person to fall on

their face – Judas found himself in that sort of position. Jesus was

exchanging love for betrayal. It was the sort of love that disarmed and

sent Judas mad.

 

Turn the other cheek .. its the Jiu Jitsu move of Love!!!

[gHari]

Jesus could have saved himself just by denying that he was of God.

 

Then we would not know him or the message he was sent to give us.

 

He accepted the ordeal that his message would live.

 

Would we accept death or simply deny our truth and live on ... in our obscurity?

 

 

Seek ye first the Kingdom of God. That is the message of all sadhus. They could not silence Haridasa Thakura; they did not silence Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Amen

[bija]

Dear Her Servant (and friends) peace to you:

 

http://www.edow.org/spirituality/eastermeditation/

 

http://www.heqigallery.com/index.htm

[bija]

and of course dear to the soul (following the theme of peace)....gentle Saint Francis.