Ramakanta effectively concedes defeat

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

> You wrote once again with regards your inability to prove the GBC were

> authorised to change the status you agree Srila Prabhupada established in

> 1966:

 

<I do not have to prove statements that I did not make.>

 

Then you are conceding defeat since without such authorisation the GBC must

maintain the status quo, hence point c) remains intatct. The GBC are only

authorised to run ISKCON in the way they were ordered to run it by Srila

Prabhupada (if you like I can repost all that evidence on how the GBC were

defined by Srila Prabhupada). You now claim you are not claiming there is any

such authorisation for change. You are therefore admitting defeat since this

debate is based on visible evidence. Implying I am not worthy to understand

phantom,non-existent evidence is simply a pathetic ruse to avoid the fact you

are defeated.

 

<So please follow Srila Prabhupada's instruction and the rules of this debate

and at once confirm by quotes your claim that we cannot enter the spiritual

sky in our material bodies and your claim on Feb 3, 2007 that my statement

is false.>

 

If you are conceding that you have no order from Srila Prabhupada to the GBC

authorising them to change the status quo then the debate is over. Once you

concede defeat I will then happily answer any remaining questions you have. But

I suspect even the bogus GBC would agree with me on this point. However you may

want to look into joining the Jehova's Witnesses.

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

<Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Initiations in ISKCON <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, February 13, 2007 7:44:00 AM

Ramakanta breaks the rules of the debate again

 

 

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

> You wrote once again with regards your inability to prove the GBC were

> authorised to change the status you agree Srila Prabhupada established in

> 1966:

 

I do not have to prove statements that I did not make.

 

 

> You must support your position with statements from Srila Prabhupada

> within the rules of this debate.

 

So please follow Srila Prabhupada's instruction and the rules of this debate

and at once confirm by quotes your claim that we cannot enter the spiritual

sky in our material bodies and your claim on Feb 3, 2007 that my statement

is false.

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

> Then you are conceding defeat since without such authorisation the GBC

> must maintain the status quo, hence point c) remains intact.

 

I see no reason to concede defeat because your argument is incomplete. It is

based on the unproven assumption that the only way to authorize a devotee to

be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC which must be visible to

you. And I am certainly not defeated as long as you have not smashed my

challenges.

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanata Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

> Then you are conceding defeat since without such authorisation the GBC

> must maintain the status quo, hence point c) remains intact.

 

<I see no reason to concede defeat because your argument is incomplete. It is

based on the unproven assumption that the only way to authorize a devotee to

be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC which must be visible to

you.>

 

The only authorised way to do ANYTHING in ISKCON is in accordance with Srila

Prabhupada’s orders. This is axiomatic, both to how ISKCON must be run, and how

this debate must be framed. If you disagree with this then you have left the

debate.

 

The GBC were ordered to manage ISKCON and ordered how to do it. Without an

order authorising them to remove Srila Prabhupada as the sole diksa guru for

ISKCON, the GBC must simply manage the systems they were given in the way they

were told to manage them. I have proven all this already, do I need to repost

all that evidence yet again? If this were not the case then any lunatic could

propose any damn thing he wanted and say it is a secret or hidden order.

 

If you are conceding you have no visible evidence allowing the GBC to

completely change the management system in ISKCON regarding initiation then you

are defeated. Your other challenges are irrelevant if you concede you have no

evidence to change the status quo which you agree was set in place in 1966.

 

How many times must I explain this?

 

Your challenge to point c) is based on an injunction you cannot prove and an

order you cannot identify (and indeed which you now imply I am unqualified to

see). Absolutely pathetic. And you say you are not defeated! Ha!

 

Once you concede defeat on the main debate (points a,b and c) I shall happily

smash your irrelevant challenges too, one by one. That’s a promise.

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

<Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Initiations in ISKCON <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:15:00 AM

Re: Ramakanta effectively concedes defeat

 

 

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

> Then you are conceding defeat since without such authorisation the GBC

> must maintain the status quo, hence point c) remains intact.

 

I see no reason to concede defeat because your argument is incomplete. It is

based on the unproven assumption that the only way to authorize a devotee to

be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC which must be visible to

you. And I am certainly not defeated as long as you have not smashed my

challenges.

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

Your argument is still incomplete. You still have not proven that the only

way to authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the

GBC which must be visible to you. If you just repeat what you already wrote,

then your argument remains incomplete.

 

 

> The only authorised way to do ANYTHING in ISKCON is in accordance with

> Srila Prabhupada’s orders.

 

But you are not following this rule. You are supervising and judging the GBC

without being ordered and authorized by Srila Prabhupada to do that.

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanata Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

<Your argument is still incomplete. You still have not proven that the only

way to authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the

GBC which must be visible to you.>

 

But the GBC have said they were authorised to replace Srila Prabhupada prior to

November 14th 1977 and that they have presented the VISIBLE quotes where this

authorisation took place in papers such as ‘Disciple of My Disciple’ etc. The

only person in the world challenging these points (that they must be authorised

to replace Srila Prabhupada with visibe evidence) is you. That’s why I say you

are living in your own fantasy dreamland. But even you admit they were meant to

manage initiation. They can only manage it in accordance with the orders they

received. Do you want me to prove that again. Is there something wrong with

your memory. Why not see the doctor?

 

You cannot challenge the status quo on the basis of invisible evidence. That

breaks the rules of this debate. That’s why you are once again defeated.

Remember:

 

“Evidence that doesn’t exist is no evidence at all”.

 

What you have is absolutely no evidence. Just the speculation that such

evidence may exist; and that I am not worthy to see it. Only a person desperate

to be cheated would accept such a proposition.

 

The only authorised way to do ANYTHING in ISKCON is in accordance with

> Srila Prabhupada’s orders.

 

<But you are not following this rule. You are supervising and judging the GBC

without being ordered and authorized by Srila Prabhupada to do that.>

 

Once the GBC stopped following Srila Prabhupada’s orders they ceased to be the

GBC as defined by Srila Prabhupada. Even they admit they were in maya for

nearly an entire decade when they ran their ‘zonal acarya system’, or what we

call the Great Guru Hoax part 1:

 

“By the influence of Maya, illusion, a different idea soon evolved that Srila

Prabhupada had appointed eleven “pure devotees” to serve as the only gurus

after him…” (BTG # 25-01, 1991)

 

In the mid eightees we had the Great Guru Hoax part 2 which was authorised by

the very same people who had been in maya for the previous ten years. We are

certainly authorised to challenge maya wherever she appears.

 

Your position now, in effect, states:

 

"the GBC cannot be challenged and do not have to justify their actions on the

basis of Srila Prabhupada's explicit, visible orders, but can claim they had

invisible orders allowing them to do whatever they have done'.

 

This is sheer lunacy. Only a moron would accept this. Even the bogus GBC do not

state this. You position is crazier than people who have been in deep maya for

many years by their own admission.

 

You are finished. Please concede defeat so I can mutilate your remaining

irrelevant and inanely foolish challenges (once you leave the neutral zone).

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

<Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Initiations in ISKCON <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:15:00 AM

Re: Ramakanta effectively concedes defeat

 

 

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

Your argument is still incomplete. You still have not proven that the only

way to authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the

GBC which must be visible to you. If you just repeat what you already wrote,

then your argument remains incomplete.

 

 

> The only authorised way to do ANYTHING in ISKCON is in accordance with

> Srila Prabhupada’s orders.

 

But you are not following this rule. You are supervising and judging the GBC

without being ordered and authorized by Srila Prabhupada to do that.

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

Your argument is still incomplete. You have not proven that the only way to

authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC

which must be visible to you.

 

In case you don't know, in this debate things are proven by quoting Srila

Prabhupada, not like you just tried.

 

 

And please quote Srila Prabhupada's statement that you are ordered and

authorized to supervise and judge the GBC (e.g. to judge whether or not the

GBC stopped following Srila Prabhupada’s orders).

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

<Your argument is still incomplete. You have not proven that the only way to

authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC

which must be visible to you.>

 

So it looks like you have indeed completely forgotten the following:

 

This is the way the GBC is defined in resolutions approved by Srila Prabhupada:

 

"The GBC has been established by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Prabhupada to represent Him in carrying out the responsibility of managing the

International Society for Krsna Consciousness of which He is the Founder-Acarya

and supreme authority. The GBC accepts as its life & soul His divine

instructions and recognises that it is completely dependent on His mercy in all

respects. The GBC has no other function or purpose other than to execute the

instructions so kindly given by His Divine Grace and preserve and spread His

Teachings to the world in their pure form." (Definition of GBC, Resolution 1,

GBC minutes 1975, emphasis added)

 

They were thus set up SOLELY to manage the movement in accordance with GIVEN,

instructions which set out the systems of management to be followed:

 

“1. The Governing Body Commission (GBC) will be the ultimate managing authority

of the entire International Society for Krishna Consciousness.”

(Opening Statement, Srila Prabhupada's Last Will and Testament)

 

And they could not change those systems:

 

'The system of management will continue as it is now and there is no need of

any change.' Srila Prabhupada's Last Will and Testament)

 

Thus the GBC:

A) Cannot change any system of management given by Srila Prabhupada;

B) Or introduce any new system of management not already given by Srila

Prabhupada.

And the following is the system for managing initiation in ISKCON which the GBC

were ordered to follow:

 

“Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents

may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to

whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After

considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as

an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the

case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila

Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine

Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad, the above eleven senior devotees

acting as His representative.” (July 9th directive to all Temple Presidents

and GBCs)

 

In the above system there is no authorisation for anyone other than Srila

Prabhupada to initiate disciples in ISKCON.

 

Since this debate is based on visible evidence, and since you concede you have

no order authorising the GBC to change the above status quo, you are defeated.

 

The fact that the GBC also cannot provide such evidence, even though they

accept the need to present visible evidence justifying their actions (see

Disciple of My disciples), proves they are not the GBC but illegal hijackers.

 

<And please quote Srila Prabhupada's statement that you are ordered and

authorized to supervise and judge the GBC (e.g. to judge whether or not the

GBC stopped following Srila Prabhupada’s orders).>

 

Please read what the GBC have admitted:

 

“By the influence of Maya, illusion, a different idea soon evolved that Srila

Prabhupada had appointed eleven “pure devotees” to serve as the only gurus

after him…” (BTG # 25-01, 1991)

 

 

The current gurus were authorised by people who admit they completely

misunderstood Srila Prabhupada’s orders on initiation and were thus in maya for

nearly a decade. Some gurus admit that even today the guru system is wrong.

 

Do you now challenge the fact we are authorised to go to war with Maya? I think

its time for you to wake up to the fact that you have been cheated. Please stop

trying to defend cheaters.

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

<Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Initiations in ISKCON <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Friday, February 16, 2007 7:01:00 AM

Re: Ramakanta effectively concedes defeat

 

 

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

Your argument is still incomplete. You have not proven that the only way to

authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC

which must be visible to you.

 

In case you don't know, in this debate things are proven by quoting Srila

Prabhupada, not like you just tried.

 

 

And please quote Srila Prabhupada's statement that you are ordered and

authorized to supervise and judge the GBC (e.g. to judge whether or not the

GBC stopped following Srila Prabhupada’s orders).

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

The quotes that you just repeated do not prove that the only way to

authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC

which must be visible to you. Therefore your argument is still incomplete.

 

 

You can quote the GBC judging themselves. But you must not judge the GBC

yourself and say "bogus GBC" etc. If you do that, then you are violating

following rule:

 

"The only authorised way to do ANYTHING in ISKCON is in accordance with

Srila Prabhupada’s orders." (Yaduraja, Feb 14, 2007)

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu,

PAMHO. AGTSP!

You claim:

 

<The quotes that you just repeated do not prove that the only way to

authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC

which must be visible to you. Therefore your argument is still incomplete.>

 

Yes they do. Maybe you are just not qualified to understand.

 

The quotes prove:

 

1) The GBC were set up as the ‘ultimate managing authority’ for ISKCON. Please

look up the word ‘ultimate’.

2) They were told exactly how to manage initiation.

3) They were told not to change the system of management.

 

Therefore if you want to challenge the system Srila Prabhupada put in place for

conducting initiation you must prove he authorised the GBC to change it. There

is no higher managing authority within ISKCON than the GBC (as defined by Srila

Prabhupada). No-one can initiate anyone without the GBC allowing this to occur

since it is their job to oversee the Movement. And, on the basis of visible

evidence (which is all this debate allows), they were ONLY authorised to allow

Srila Prabhupada to initiate disciples as I have proven.

 

 

Thus the burden of proof is on you if you want to change or challenge the ONLY

system of initiation the GBC were told to manage, and which merely continues

the status quo you accept existed since 1966.

 

Since you have already said you are not claiming you can produce such an order

to the GBC, you are defeated. If it is your position that no-one can challenge

the current bogus GBC then we can stop now if you like. God help you.

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

<Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Initiations in ISKCON <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:58:00 AM

Re: Ramakanta effectively concedes defeat

 

 

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

The quotes that you just repeated do not prove that the only way to

authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC

which must be visible to you. Therefore your argument is still incomplete.

 

 

You can quote the GBC judging themselves. But you must not judge the GBC

yourself and say "bogus GBC" etc. If you do that, then you are violating

following rule:

 

"The only authorised way to do ANYTHING in ISKCON is in accordance with

Srila Prabhupada’s orders." (Yaduraja, Feb 14, 2007)

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

You presented only two premises (points a and b) and the conclusion (point

c). But the inference "if a and b, then c" confirmed by Srila Prabhupada is

missing. Therefore, according to basic rules of logic, your argument is

incomplete and therefore does not prove anything.

 

The inference that you just presented is incomplete. You have not proven by

a quote from Srila Prabhupada that you (IRM) must have seen the instruction.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

<You presented only two premises (points a and b) and the conclusion (point

c). But the inference "if a and b, then c" confirmed by Srila Prabhupada is

missing.>

 

Srila Prabhupada states that the disciple must follow the orders of the

spiritual master. He states this over and over again:

 

“Following the order of the bona fide spiritual master is the ONLY duty of the

disciple, and this completely faithful execution of the order of the bona fide

spiritual master is the secret of success.”

(SB 2.9.8, puport)

 

I have presented the orders (definition of the GBC, July 9th directive, Final

Will etc). If you want to challenge the status quo these orders locked in place

(point a) then the burden of proof is on you. This debate is based on visible

evidence, not invisible, phantom, non-existent, speculation. If it was based on

the latter then you would indeed be the winner since this is indeed your

forte.But it is not, so you are defeated. If you want to start a new debate

with new rules where any lunatic assertion can be made without the need for a

shred of evidence then maybe you can find someone willing to debate you, but it

will not be me.

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

<Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Initiations in ISKCON <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Monday, February 19, 2007 2:02:00 PM

Re: Ramakanta effectively concedes defeat

 

 

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

You presented only two premises (points a and b) and the conclusion (point

c). But the inference "if a and b, then c" confirmed by Srila Prabhupada is

missing. Therefore, according to basic rules of logic, your argument is

incomplete and therefore does not prove anything.

 

The inference that you just presented is incomplete. You have not proven by

a quote from Srila Prabhupada that you (IRM) must have seen the instruction.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

The quote from Srila Prabhupada that you just presented does not prove that

you (IRM) must have seen the order. Therefore your argument (points a, b and

c) is incomplete and does not prove anything. You have not proven that the

only way to authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to

the GBC which must have been seen by you. And you will never be able to

prove it.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

[Guest guest]

Dear Ramakanta Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

<The quote from Srila Prabhupada that you just presented does not prove that

you (IRM) must have seen the order.>

 

They prove we must follow the orders that are given. I have shown what those

orders were. Those are the orders the GBC must follow.

 

If you now wish to change the rules of this debate whereby you can allude to

some hypothetical orders that you do not have to produce on the basis of some

pathetic excuse, then you will need to find someone else to argue with.

 

Where does the GBC ever mention orders from Srila Prabhupada on how they are

authorised to completely change the system of initiation that they have not

published? Have you ever read 'Disciple of My disciple'? The whole paper seeks

to show exactly where, in visible evidence, they were authorised to replace

Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru. This paper was freely distributed

throughout ISKCON with no restriction on the basis of 'qualification'. In any

case anyone capable of discerning the difference between the word 'yes' and

'no' would be at least as qualified as the authors of the paper, if not more

so. why do I have to explain this over and over and over again. Is there

something wrong with you?

 

I thought you wanted to disprove point C); but obviously you cannot do that if

you will not or cannot produce the evidence that authorises the GBC to change

the status quo you agree existed since 1966 (point a).

This debate is based on visible evidence, not invisible, phantom,

non-existent, unknown orders. If it was based on the latter then you would

indeed be the winner since this is your forte. Since it is not you are defeated

within the rules of this debate.

 

Best wishes

Ys

Yadu

 

 

 

 

Ramakanta (das) HKS (PAMHO.NET SysOp) (Zurich - CH)

<Ramakanta.HKS (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Initiations in ISKCON <Initiations.in.ISKCON (AT) pamho (DOT) net>

Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:49:00 AM

Re: Ramakanta effectively concedes defeat

 

 

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

The quote from Srila Prabhupada that you just presented does not prove that

you (IRM) must have seen the order. Therefore your argument (points a, b and

c) is incomplete and does not prove anything. You have not proven that the

only way to authorize a devotee to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to

the GBC which must have been seen by you. And you will never be able to

prove it.

 

ys Ramakanta dasa

 

-----------------------

To from this mailing list, send an email to:

Initiations.in.ISKCON-Owner (AT) pamho (DOT) net

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Yaduraja Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!

 

 

In your last text you did not present any statement by Srila Prabhupada.

Therefore your argument (points a, b and c) remains incomplete and does not

prove anything. You have not proven that the only way to authorize a devotee

to be a diksa guru in ISKCON is an order to the GBC which must have been

seen by you. And you will never be able to prove it.

 

 

> This debate is based on visible evidence

 

Well, then please present some visible evidence that Srila Prabhupada was

authorized to remove Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur as the sole diksa guru

and put himself in that position. If you do not, then please stop dictating

rules that you do not follow yourself.

 

 

ys Ramakanta dasa