Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 OM NAMAH SIVAYA for the sake of some of us no-so-quick-witted ones here please add a little moisture to your humor so i can identify it. admittedly i am a little slow but the incest thing tipped me off. for awhile i was thinking that you were actually advising people to rationalize their spiritual experiences and look to others to validate our relationship with the Divine Mother. you know anyone who does the trance inducing higher brain lesion procedure, and it is covered by insurance? JAI MA , kartik gaurav <omkaaraya wrote: > > > > Unfortunately life has given me a healthy dose of skepticism, so if you dont mind, I'd like to share my opinions on this matter. > I think its important to first discuss issues pertinent to placebo effects and also certain psycho-physiological effects that may lead to such experiences. The human mind is a very powerful tool, and make us feel pain even without stimuli, so basically how does one know that their experiences isnt primarily placebo? > My parampara Gurus all are academics and all strongly believe in the reproducibility of effects of certain spiritual phenomena, within our group there are tried and tested methods between Guru and Shishya- Validation is of utmost importance! I think it is imperative one have a competent master who can discern fact from fiction. > A second more serious issue that a lot of practitioners face are physiological or genetic predispositions to nervous pathologies such as going into trances, "out of body" experiences and visions. Its a common sight in many village temples to see people go in a trance like state on account of rhythmic music. MRIs had indicated lesions in the higher brain that may be the cause of such an event. This was primarily witnessed in communities from underdeveloped nations that also seem to have consanguinity amongst parents. Back when I was a freshman, there was significant build up on this field, dunno if the researchers pursued a cure. > So before one thinks their experiences are spiritual I think it is important to rule out notions of pathology by rationalizing the events that took place, by consulting experts who may know a greater deal about such effects and also take proper medical advice. I personally followed through with this advice, that is why I am passing it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 I hope kartik and you do not mind my intrusion but i like to say that i agree in full with him. Thats is also one reason why all kind of Internet advice on matters of sadhana is problematic since it must lack that unique relationship that can enshure the validation and reproductabily of the experience that is supposed to happen in a Guru Sishya Parampara, at least in theory. This validation of ones own experience by feedback of the teacher is one of the central elements of the tantric tradition, of course this is rational and scientific it has always been that way, there never was any disharmony between philosophy, that is rationality and mystic or spiritual experience in the east.One is aiming towards a reproduction of the experience of the Guru by following the same pattern, and in reproducing the experience of the Guru the sadhak is at the same time reproducing the experiences of the whole lineage of teachers back to adinath. There is no place for any individualistic approach, or personal relationship with a deity that is distinctfrom that of other people, or any non validated experience here at all, on the contrary moving beyond ones personal illusions and limitations into a reproducible experience, that has been the same for ages, is a positive experience, this union with the experience of the past masters of a tradition is desirable. MahaHrada , "ecjensen_us" <ecjensen_us wrote: > > OM NAMAH SIVAYA > > for the sake of some of us no-so-quick-witted ones here please add a > little moisture to your humor so i can identify it. admittedly i am a > little slow but the incest thing tipped me off. for awhile i was > thinking that you were actually advising people to rationalize their > spiritual experiences and look to others to validate our relationship > with the Divine Mother. you know anyone who does the trance inducing > higher brain lesion procedure, and it is covered by insurance? > > JAI MA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Aside from all of this I would dearly like to know which guru can tell Shakti MA about reproduceable effects to conform to his/her beliefs. You know there is a phenomenon I have noticed which is that the more educated some people become the more stupid they become commensurately also. I was listening to a Professor from Harvard recently, lecturing on the fact that one is not necessarily smart because one has a degree. Hmmm..... I think I will go ponder on this some more. ecjensen_us <ecjensen_us > wrote: OM NAMAH SIVAYA for the sake of some of us no-so-quick-witted ones here please add a little moisture to your humor so i can identify it. admittedly i am a little slow but the incest thing tipped me off. for awhile i was thinking that you were actually advising people to rationalize their spiritual experiences and look to others to validate our relationship with the Divine Mother. you know anyone who does the trance inducing higher brain lesion procedure, and it is covered by insurance? JAI MA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 I am glad to you see your arrival into the discussion Mahahrada, truly you've done a better job in being more concise and effective than my previous post! Ecjensen, by no means was I joking nor was I directly referring to incest. Consanguinity refers to a small population of people who may have had a few common ancestors along the line. Many communities have an ancesteral bottle neck, especially if they are isolated. It is not only marriage of immediate siblings or cousins; but even people who may think they are completely unrelated and may have been related 3 generations ago. This is particularly true from African sub-cultures. The lesions themselves are genetic defects which come about due to the expression of what is a recessive allele. The allele cannot be expressed unless two people who share similar genetic make up, reproduce. The expression of recessivity of a specific allele primarily hints out consanquinity in small pockets of people who are largely isolated from other communities. I cannot be apologetic for my statements as it was you who interpreted some sort of humour. For me personally I was serious about the issue and still hold that position. My speciality isnt psychiatry nor is it psycho-chemistry, so I dont know much about this stuff. There was a stage in my life where I wanted to know if there was research on this trance states and this so called "Devi coming on people" claims. People who go into unsolicited virAbhava, play around with mantras which have kurja or krodha bijas, do tantric upachara without proper guidance and diksha tend to get a significant amount of mental instability. Sharada tilaka talks about doshas that come from various different mantras on account of their formulation and also lack of puruscharana in the event where people cherry pick rituals. As for Punditji, it seems you come off as somewhat delusional and ignorant to state and stereotype what you consider as some "educated" people. Generalized statements such as this without proper explanation and example only suggests crapping on, on your part. I am highly offended by this statement. Intellectual discernment is true vairAgya from the inside, this is what Shri Krishna taught as true sannyAsa to Arjuna. Function normally in society however from the inside be unaffected - this implies being objective from the conscious state as this is how I was taught the Gita. Debate and intellectual discussion is the high point of vedantic society as proclaimed by Shri Adi Shankara. A Pundita usually refers to one who s to and is learnt in the smriti of their community and also knows karma kaNDa, it is unbecoming of one to comment about education and yet hold themselves in esteem with a title that is only attained by education. Any Shakta system that has krama, will require validation of the practitioner, that they have successfully finished one before the guru guides them to the next. Almost all krama based tantras have this notion. Even in Parashurama Kalpasutra, a text that seems to be very popular online has reference in its Varahi kalpa about the practitioner intuitively knowing elements of astrology and the movement of the celestial bodies. Similarly there are a series of different observances one makes with panchadashAksharI before the shodashAksharI is given. In all Maha Vidya and Durga based krama there is a notion of proof, an anumAna of siddhi before one goes further into sadhana. Even yoga abhyAsa has anumAna. Intellect only refers to the quality of the vessel, at the end of the day it is the knowledge; not the intellect that lasts beyond one's mortality. ecjensen_us <ecjensen_us > Wednesday, 21 February, 2007 6:37:45 AM Re: doubt -Kartik OM NAMAH SIVAYA for the sake of some of us no-so-quick- witted ones here please add a little moisture to your humor so i can identify it. admittedly i am a little slow but the incest thing tipped me off. for awhile i was thinking that you were actually advising people to rationalize their spiritual experiences and look to others to validate our relationship with the Divine Mother. you know anyone who does the trance inducing higher brain lesion procedure, and it is covered by insurance? JAI MA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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