doubt -Kartik -Mahahrada

February 21, 2007

OM NAMAH SIVAYA

no intrusion at all. i always appreciate your input. though i must

say after reading your responses i feel i must apologize to Kartik as

i now know he wasn't being sarcastic. so let me first say that i am

sorry i did not mean to offend anyone. but when he wrote about people

who experience trance states induced from rhythmic music either being

a product of inbreeding or some medical condition it seemed like he

was joking. because isn't higher and/or ecstatic states of

consciousness by chanting The Name with a rhythm a path all it's own?

and one need not be a member of any lineage, just Love The Divine, no?

but from what you wrote i do have a couple questions; before when we

were talking about lineages you said the Guru need not have personal

attainment as it is enough that he carries the power of the lineage.

without his own attainment how is it possible to verify and/or

reproduce an event that he himself may not have experienced? if

someone is following this path can he/she only progress only as far as

their Guru? and secondly how is it justifiable that everyone should

have the exact same relationship or experience with That, which is

Infinite, especially given our infinitely different circumstances and

life experiences that make up the Nature of each of us. btw speaking

of Nature i wanted to thank you for the flowing light link you

provided about knowing your Nature, i found it beneficial. Thanks. -eric

JAI MA

, "mahahradanatha"

<mahahradanatha wrote:

>

> I hope kartik and you do not mind my intrusion but i like to say

that i agree in full with him.

> Thats is also one reason why all kind of Internet advice on matters

> of sadhana is problematic since it must lack that unique

relationship that can enshure the validation and reproductabily of

the experience that is supposed to happen in a Guru Sishya Parampara,

at least in theory.

>

> This validation of ones own experience by feedback of the teacher is

> one of the central elements of the tantric tradition, of course this

> is rational and scientific it has always been that way, there never

> was any disharmony between philosophy, that is rationality and

mystic or spiritual experience in the east.One is aiming towards a

> reproduction of the experience of the Guru by following the same

> pattern, and in reproducing the experience of the Guru the sadhak is

at the same time reproducing the experiences of the whole lineage of

teachers back to adinath.

>

> There is no place for any individualistic approach, or personal

> relationship with a deity that is distinctfrom that of other people,

> or any non validated experience here at all, on the contrary

> moving beyond ones personal illusions and limitations into a

> reproducible experience, that has been the same for ages, is a

> positive experience, this union with the experience of the past

> masters of a tradition is desirable.

>

> MahaHrada

>

> , "ecjensen_us"

> <ecjensen_us@> wrote:

> >

> > OM NAMAH SIVAYA

> >

> > for the sake of some of us no-so-quick-witted ones here please add a

> > little moisture to your humor so i can identify it. admittedly i am

> a

> > little slow but the incest thing tipped me off. for awhile i was

> > thinking that you were actually advising people to rationalize their

> > spiritual experiences and look to others to validate our

> relationship

> > with the Divine Mother. you know anyone who does the trance

> inducing

> > higher brain lesion procedure, and it is covered by insurance?

> >

> > JAI MA

> >

>

February 21, 2007

Namaste Ecjensen,

I wasnt offended by your comments, those were in reference to someone else.

Your questions about the Guru are very hard hitting and I dont think I am the appropriate person to give you the answers. What I can do is try to give my opinion and if that befits an answer then great.

Unless you have Shiva for your Guru, you will find that most Gurus will have some sort of spritual, knowledge based or physical limitation, the extent of which matters as you gradually go further into your sadhana/s. As far as parampara is concerned a Guru must be an individual who has purna diksha and is a natha or ambaa of his/her parampara. This may not mean that he or she has complete and absolute siddhi in all the practices of their lineage; however, they must have been pretty high up to have recieved full and complete indoctrination. The limitations start to matter as soon you come near to the Guru's level.

As human beings we are supposed to act and think in an overall progressive manner. Most scripture advise that the Guru should be trusted implicitely and even with sannyasis you will find that they do jump from Guru to Guru, one the advice of the former master. Also remember that one does not make just anyone off the street their Guru. You have to be absolutely certain and content with a person and their ability before you continue with them. This means knowing them really well.

As far as sadhana goes, it is sub-divded into a variety of different practices. Yantra Puruscharana, Japa, Pranayama, Yagna/Homa are the hallmarks of almost all mantra based sadhanas. Each of these categories have their own markings of success some of which are observable/reproducible to others. Along side this, each parampara also has a series of experiences recorded down for each krama. This may be certain types of dreams, or other physical experiences. Parampara Nathas are only Natha on account of having a respectible amount of experience and also having complete knowledge of this stuff.

When you talk about life experiences and the human condition of an individual then you loose me. Obviously this is a question that cannot be answered because it accounts for too much variation and is far too generalized to be dealt with in the scope of one email. Most certainly people come from different backgrounds, have different mentalities and approach to sadhana. Even in one Guru parampara you will find variation in how the Guru deals with one shishya relative to another. Normally it is the case that the Guru takes into consideration your present limitations, requirements, your graha doshas and whatever other variable he/she may consider as being important and based on this a course of action [which may be specific to you] is formulated.

Prarabdha does influence your affiinity and ability with mantras. This is true but I must say that most matnras I know have a very consistent behavior pattern with practitioners, and the only differences may be in the intencity, frequency and rate. Particularly if they come from the same source (i.e. one Guru gives the mantra to two shishyas, over a long period of time they may experience the same stuff but the difference would largely be quantitative).

At this point I'd quite Mahahrada and say:

> There is no place for any individualistic approach, or personal

> relationship with a deity that is distinctfrom that of other people,

> or any non validated experience here at all, on the contrary

> moving beyond ones personal illusions and limitations into a

> reproducible experience, that has been the same for ages, is a

> positive experience, this union with the experience of the past

> masters of a tradition is desirable.

Finally I will give you what I feel is a analogy that best describes mantras and one's experience with them. Take human metabolism, elements and measures of it would signficantly differ from person to person on account of inherent differences in genetics, diet and other types of conditioning. However, at least in all healthy individuals you find a lot of aspects which are qualitatively the same. Likewise in mantra sadhana you have be graced with visions, or in the case of llundrub start hearing voices; these are quite possibly experiences that will differ from person to person.

So if you get a mantra of a devata which cause the practitioner to form a psychic/conscious link with the devata, then over a period of time you may be graced with a divine voice speaking to you. What it says to you may be different to what other people hear when they do the sadhana. However there maybe elements of the siddhi or particles of the statements that remain constant.

All sadhanas I have done seem to have reproducible effects in the visions, the naturalized dhyana, and other stuff people get.

ecjensen_us <ecjensen_us >

Thursday, 22 February, 2007 5:35:12 AM

Re: doubt -Kartik -Mahahrada