vow - hunter to Narada

[theist]

TRANSLATION Madhya 24.256

“The hunter then said, ‘My dear sir, whatever you say I shall do.’

“Närada immediately ordered him, ‘First of all, break your bow. Then I shall tell you what is to be done.’

PURPORT

This is the process of initiation. The disciple must vow that he will no longercommit sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. Then the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual emancipation.

 

Perhaps those who have taken such a vow would say something on what it has meant to to have done so.

[brajeshwara das]

Personally, it feels like crap when you can't keep a vow to Guru because you are so fallen and selfish. But we just have to soldier on as best we can. Better to try and fail than not try at all. Worst is when we tell ourselves Guru really didn't mean it like that, it's ok, keep sinning. It's somehow bona fide and part of your service.

 

We should at least be honest enough with ourselves to know when a vow has been broken.

[theist]

That sounds right. I can see the benefit there in that it becomes a catalyst for for some deep soul searching. Having never made such a vow myself I never experienced that although I should because these are the basic principles that a spiritual life can grow upon, vow or not. I am glad I never made such a vow although circumstances brought me to the point of almost being initiated in 1971. Considering what I know now and how my life went so out of control I am glad I didn't. I was no way close to understanding what was involved.

 

I also agree with you about the self delusion of thinking that somehow we have special license from the Guru to ignore the vow. That must be the most dangerous position.

 

I have seen many people fall down. I have sincere appreciation for those that get back up and try again. I also imagine that having made such a vow some devotees may have come to the brink of fall down and remembering their vows summoned the strength to stick to it.

[Guest guest]

What do you do when you can't keep your vows but still want to serve? i have a problem with marijuana.

[Guest guest]

Keep trying....one day you ll succeed.

[theist]

 

Keep trying....one day you ll succeed.

That's it. And don't neglect prayer. Asking Krsna to help you keep your vows to your spiritual master is also pleasing to Krsna.

 

Myself the only way I could stop smoking ganja was to strictly avoid associating with anyone that has even the slightest connection to it. I am like an alcoholic when it comes to smoking dope. First thing in the morning and the last thing at night and at every point during the day I was stoned. I pasted five years like this solid. Somehow I kept chanting a little. Now I haven't gotten high for over 20 years but I can't dare to even toy with it. How many of your friends smoke? Are you really friends to each other while keeping each other high? Hard choices to make on this one.

 

Keep serving and increase attachment to that serving. At some point notice how being stoned detracts from the quality of your service and then make the right choice when considering tapering way off or quiting in preference of increased quality of service.

 

Haribol

[bhaktatraveler]

Vows. Some are straight forward and others by trickery.

 

Who would agree to follow as a brahman, if they knew there was an alternitve after 74? Just an 'if' we are speaking of. Not whether or not. IF.

 

Would you still agree to be brahman? With no concession by varna, if you were shown as part of your introduction as a bhakta after 74' that the regulations/restrictions were different according to varana and asrama? Just a straw poll by posting.

 

Would you choose vows by varna or only accept the one brahman standard, no other varnas regulations? Which CHOICE would you take for your VOWS?

 

CB-r

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Would a Ksyatria spirited Bhakta who was interacting with Karmis in a preaching mode after congregating with them for some time be guilty of eating meat if he began to take the other Ksyatria spirited Bhaktas out to thin the deer population in order to sharpen their fighting skills in war time? Is he breaking his vow not to eat meat?

[brajeshwara das]

A vow is a vow. If you took a vow then you are bound to it. If you can't uphold the vow you should take the proper understanding that you are fallen and cannot follow correctly, you are not surrendered. Looking for loopholes so you can do the activities you enjoy is not bona fide. I drink coffee. I'm sure I could justify it somehow if I look around enough in scripture but that is ignorant. I am fallen. That's that. I'm not as advanced as I may like to think, or wish others to believe. How will I ever make any real progress if I'm not honest with myself?

 

If Guru gives new orders and new initiates make new vows different from mine, it doesn't mean I am free from my vows. The contract was signed.

 

If in my service I need to take out someone to kill an animal, ok, that is my service. Remember service descends and we don't manufature it, it needs to be an order from a senior vaisnava. So I have to be very sure that this is real service not my false ego imposing its will on the environment, telling me it is service so I can be served. Maya will try and trick me in this way, and I may think very surely "I am a devotee, I am serving" but I may not be led by Guru but by Mayadevi.

 

But if I take these persons and train them to kill, still I do not eat the meat because I have a vow not to eat meat. I should do my service in detachment to my desires, only for the satisfaction of the Lord. Especially something like killing, this is something that should be meditated upon and there should be a very clear necessity for the service.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Vows. Some are straight forward and others by trickery.

 

Who would agree to follow as a brahman, if they knew there was an alternitve after 74? Just an 'if' we are speaking of. Not whether or not. IF.

 

Would you still agree to be brahman? With no concession by varna, if you were shown as part of your introduction as a bhakta after 74' that the regulations/restrictions were different according to varana and asrama? Just a straw poll by posting.

 

Would you choose vows by varna or only accept the one brahman standard, no other varnas regulations? Which CHOICE would you take for your VOWS?

 

CB-r

 

 

I truly am not trying to ruffle anyone the question is base on an example discussed else where, but is not brough up here in any other fashion than to imagine a different thing, IF, only.

 

Whether 4 reg's or not I leave somewhere else. Only a big honest IF about vows is asked. Would you still choose 4 reg's or by varna, your vows of regulation? And if you like, only those that came after March 74 to this day.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

[brajeshwara das]

 

I truly am not trying to ruffle anyone the question is base on an example discussed else where, but is not brough up here in any other fashion than to imagine a different thing, IF, only.

 

Whether 4 reg's or not I leave somewhere else. Only a big honest IF about vows is asked. Would you still choose 4 reg's or by varna, your vows of regulation? And if you like, only those that came after March 74 to this day.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das

 

I would choose the 4 regs but do everything following initiation differently. I would have taken everything much more seriously. I am in grhasta life now and it is very difficult to follow correctly. I would have stayed in bramachari life, it is much easier from my feeling to always remember Krishna, you always have the association of the devotees and the darshan of the Deities.

 

I am in a different math than you Prabhu and we never were offered anything but the 4 regs. Did Srila Swami Maharaj ever change the initiation procedure and offer specific initiation vows for the 4 varnas? If not then this is speculation on the desires of Srila Swami Maharaj.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

But if I take these persons and train them to kill, still I do not eat the meat because I have a vow not to eat meat. I should do my service in detachment to my desires, only for the satisfaction of the Lord. Especially something like killing, this is something that should be meditated upon and there should be a very clear necessity for the service.

 

I never implied otherwise.

 

The real issue here is that Srila Prabhupada's leading men were not implimenting Srila Prabhupada's new vision as he was revealing it. They were unwilling to adjust on the fly, and had invested in some gross sense gratifying fashion into the status quo.

 

So between the conversations we have seen, and all else which escaped the purging of unwanted Vani, we see that Srila Prabhupada gave the adjustments to his leading men giving them the benefit of the doubt, as always, that they would fulfill their appointed office and make the adjustments.

 

That they did not, and to this day still do not, to this day initiating everyone and trying to hold them to the 4 regs and all the other supporting rituals and regs for Brahmana only, they have turned everything inside out, and alienated or ruined many devotees.

 

So Caturbahu das comes in just as Srila Prabhupada turned up the heat on his wayward disciples regarding the distinctions they are failing to see in terms of Varna and Ashram.

 

According to Srila Prabhupada's preaching and direct orders to his disciples, they should have been observing Caturbahu dasa accordingly, and interviewing and observing all new bhaktas to see how they fit in to the same system, just more purely defined by their acharya.

 

Instead, they force the full range of 4 regs+ Brahmin duties on everyone, instead of letting the sudra live according to the "rules and regs of a sudra" as was NOW supposed to be the case. they were eliciting the same vows as always.

 

So Caturbahu das, in a beginners mood, goes for something that was a bit out of his reach. But what he was presented was not exactly what Srila Prabhupada had in mind anymore, but that is the fault of his disciples for not implementing, and Caturbahu's bad karma to be tricked into taking vows he was not qualified to keep. And Srila Prabhupada saw his sincerety, and guided him to understand who he TRULY was in the material sense. Giving his Blessing that he is Ksyatria, giving him service as such, and giving him the sense to see through the nonsense and bail out after NOONE from the LA temple would heed his warnings and his attempt at a counter coup, the Zonal Acharyas took over.

 

So after his Spiritual Master was roughly treated in places he could no longer protect him, and then left the planet, Caturbahu dasa "fell" from his "Vows".

 

And engaged in the types of behaviors that Srila Prabhupada specifically said that we should expect to need to engage Ksyatrias in at some point.

 

What a better way to rationalize questioning all of the evidence Caturbahu dasa has presented from the Acharya to back his case for implementing DVD system wide, and casting SERIOUS doubt by placing such a seemingly impervious ad hominem attack.

 

"LOOK HE BROKE HIS VOW."

 

Of course when looked at in light of the above, this in reality is the smallest thing, a mere hiccup, to be overlooked immediately as a falldown in the letter of the law, but the spirit intact.

 

I would say it is a worse activity to pick apart someone elses life to find one thing to harp on in order to make a smokescreen so others might miss all the good they have to day.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I would choose the 4 regs but do everything following initiation differently. I would have taken everything much more seriously. I am in grhasta life now and it is very difficult to follow correctly. I would have stayed in bramachari life, it is much easier from my feeling to always remember Krishna, you always have the association of the devotees and the darshan of the Deities.

 

I am in a different math than you Prabhu and we never were offered anything but the 4 regs. Did Srila Swami Maharaj ever change the initiation procedure and offer specific initiation vows for the 4 varnas? If not then this is speculation on the desires of Srila Swami Maharaj.

 

Change was never open. No other offer was make publicly to 'ISKCON'

 

Good reply by the way. I would like to see at least a 100 different ones.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

I never implied otherwise.

 

 

 

 

 

Would a Ksyatria spirited Bhakta who was interacting with Karmis in a preaching mode after congregating with them for some time be guilty of eating meat if he began to take the other Ksyatria spirited Bhaktas out to thin the deer population in order to sharpen their fighting skills in war time? Is he breaking his vow not to eat meat?

 

If you meant from the above that he wasn't eating meat then that works for me. But your words just by the question you ask logically indicate you are talking about eating. I think you could have been more clear if you meanty otherwise.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

If you meant from the above that he wasn't eating meat then that works for me. But your words just by the question you ask logically indicate you are talking about eating. I think you could have been more clear if you meanty otherwise.

 

 

See my post #12 again.

 

He may have eaten meat upon first leaving the crooked Iskcon scheme in 1978. But I show reasonably how reasonable it actually is to dwell on such a falldown from a "vow".

 

And the example of organizing a hunting party today, was used because in essence Supersoul organized HIM into a hunting party after being forced for 3 years by clueless leaders to be more brahminical then he was ready to, and Supersoul got him out in a solo hunting party. And sometimes the Ksyatrias take the meat, usually give it to the sudra. So now Caturbahu dasa is healthy, and a good shot, so look out!

 

The point is that 30 years later this is no disqualification from understanding Srila Prabhupada's orders regarding DVD, especially when backed up with quotes, logic and reason.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

I would say it is a worse activity to pick apart someone elses life to find one thing to harp on in order to make a smokescreen so others might miss all the good they have to day.

 

 

I am not picking apart anyone's life Prabhu. This is about the subject at hand, don't make it personal.

 

All I can say about your take on Srila Swami Maharaj's desires is that it is speculation. He desired a varnashrama college surely, he desired his disciples to break up into varnas for convenience of service, but specifically stated the devotees didn't belong to the varnas. He never instituted a new initiation system with different vows for the different varnas, and none of your quotes you have presented lead to this conclusion that it was his desire to do so.

 

So while I am perfectly fine with daiva Varnashrama dharma becoming a more official part of the movement, I believe you are incorrect in saying different vows for different devotees.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Change was never open. No other offer was make publicly to 'ISKCON'

 

Good reply by the way. I would like to see at least a 100 different ones.

 

CB-r

 

I say that by then Srila Prabhupada was so besieged by those who he considered the sinister movement, and had to be so placating to their egos just to keep his movement going one more day, that we were fortunate they let him live after speaking in public conversations about changing the regs by varna and flat out ordering them to implement DVD in the society.

 

You can just by reading their responses in these conversations see the utter shock and confusion as their brains rebelled at the fact that he was implying they had a long way to go to be Vaisnava. And then their challenging of him was dealt with strictly and convincingly.

 

"What are you giving up? You speak as if you have something. You cant even get a meal." and things like that.

 

So he weaved in his instructions little by little. Knowing this was a long term game, and that Krsna would send SOME SINCERE PERSONS to coalate His Vani regarding His DVD institution.

 

Brajeshwara dasa, you have to understand that they locked him in a room in LA for over 3 days on starvation ration and water. Public knowledge.

 

He wasn't about to "publicly" as in some society wide communication to all TP's get out the changes he was making in any official way.

 

The only reason the July 9th letter got out, was because there was months of pointed and consistent discussion on the issue, too many witnesses, and they thought they could use it to their advantage anyway.

 

Having to classify people as they actually were, would put a big cramp in their style of keeping people working their various NON VEDIC personal schemes which were already well established by the early 70's right in Srila Prabhupada's face I might add.

 

Is this picture starting to become a little more clear?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I am not picking apart anyone's life Prabhu. This is about the subject at hand, don't make it personal.

 

All I can say about your take on Srila Swami Maharaj's desires is that it is speculation. He desired a varnashrama college surely, he desired his disciples to break up into varnas for convenience of service, but specifically stated the devotees didn't belong to the varnas. He never instituted a new initiation system with different vows for the different varnas, and none of your quotes you have presented lead to this conclusion that it was his desire to do so.

 

So while I am perfectly fine with daiva Varnashrama dharma becoming a more official part of the movement, I believe you are incorrect in saying different vows for different devotees.

 

See my latest post above and use your god given discrimination to read between the lines.

 

Srila Prabhupada told us to surrender intelligently, not surrender our intelligence.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

If you meant from the above that he wasn't eating meat then that works for me. But your words just by the question you ask logically indicate you are talking about eating. I think you could have been more clear if you meanty otherwise.

 

Srila Prabhupada uses the example of Bhima. HIS example. How are we to see the pure devotee of the Lord in eternal past time and as used by Prabhupada, as example for us in this thread? What do you think His vows were? Did he brake them by eating meat? Bhima has sacred thread.

 

CB-r

[theist]

The saying is, 'No one can stop a determined thief.' That mentality is evidenced in the mad speculation you are engaging in just to justify your desire to kill and eat animals. The problem here is that you feel to have this sense of justification you need to drag others into your confusion. If you are successful in this then you will suffer more for misleading others.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I say that by then Srila Prabhupada was so besieged by those who he considered the sinister movement, and had to be so placating to their egos just to keep his movement going one more day, that we were fortunate they let him live after speaking in public conversations about changing the regs by varna and flat out ordering them to implement DVD in the society.

 

quote]

 

Ameyatma das told me that Rameswara said to Krsna Kanti(?), tape administrator and creator of Golden Avitar studios, to hide this tape "That it will ruin the whole thing". Ask Ametatma das he has first hand information and was aloud to hear this conversation as it hit LA. He told me in Alachua 2000.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

See my latest post above and use your god given discrimination to read between the lines.

 

Srila Prabhupada told us to surrender intelligently, not surrender our intelligence.

 

Just because because 8+2 doesn't = 12 doesn't mean it must equal 14. That Srila Swami Maharaj was mistreated and his diciples misundertoood or didn't hear his instructions, or even prevented them from being heard, doesn't prove your point. I refuse to speculate by 'reading between the lines' unless you have clear instructions that he didn't intend his initiated disciples to follow the 4 regs. That's all this is about. You are working off an assumption of his will, I am saying please substantiate that point with some facts. Otherwise you should rethink your position on how to implement daiva varnashrama dharma. Not whether or not but how. Are you a devotee or a ksatriya? Srila Swami Maharaj said you aren't both, though you may play a role as a varna you aren't in a varna. Unless you are choosing to identify with the varna instead of as a devotee.

 

Now I understand that we want to see ourselves as aspiring devotees, not thinking ourselves qualified, but it is through the grace of Guru through initiation and acceptance of the four regulative principals that we enter into the sphere of the devotees. Once we do so, we shoud be chaste to those vows or be honest that we have broken them.

[brajeshwara das]

I woudn't normally quote myself but I think this clearly states my position on this:

 

 

I would think the way the varna system should be set up would be for the congregation of lay people who haven't taken initiation like theist, who aren't ready to make those vows. They can be identified as those varnas and participate in the society without being bound to any vows. They would be encouraged to follow surely but no vows. But once one takes Hare Nama initiation, unless a bona fide acharya says otherwise, they should try and follow the four regs as best they can. Hopefully this would keep those that aren't ready for the vows engaged and on the path of bhakti, and those that take the vows would be limited to persons ready for the commitment. Once they take the vows, they are still a ksatriya or whatever their varna was, but they are bound to the vows and considered an aspiring devotee. Then second initiation for those with the inclination for pujari etc service. This would seem to harmonize everything from my thinking.

 

Once again, please consider this with an open heart.

[theist]

 

Would a Ksyatria spirited Bhakta who was interacting with Karmis in a preaching mode after congregating with them for some time be guilty of eating meat if he began to take the other Ksyatria spirited Bhaktas out to thin the deer population in order to sharpen their fighting skills in war time? Is he breaking his vow not to eat meat?

What a weird twisted question. If you wqant to sharpen your fighting skills for a time of war I would suggest Boot Camp in the US military. They have a very good program set up for such people.

 

Trying to move into a fantasy world one extracts from scriptures written in past times and trying to enact them in modern times is more than foolish.

 

Hey here is an idea for your fantasy games. Instead of killing innocent and peaceful creatures of the forest you could all take paint ball guns and play war. You might make a mess in the forest but at least you wouldnt need to kill anything.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

The saying is, 'No one can stop a determined thief.' That mentality is evidenced in the mad speculation you are engaging in just to justify your desire to kill and eat animals. The problem here is that you feel to have this sense of justification you need to drag others into your confusion. If you are successful in this then you will suffer more for misleading others.

 

Please tell me one and all what are the VOWS spoken of here.

 

 

The four divisions of human life, namely the brahmacari, the grihastha, the vanaprastha, and the sannyasi, are all meant to help men become perfect yogis or transcendentalists. Since human life is not meant for our enjoying sense gratification like the animals, the four orders of human life are so arranged that one may become perfect in spiritual life. The brahmacaris, or students under the care of a bona fide spiritual master, control the mind by abstaining from sense gratification. They are referred to in this verse as sacrificing the hearing process and the senses in the fire of the controlled mind. A brahmacari hears only words concerning Krishna consciousness; hearing is the basic principle for understanding, and therefore the pure brahmacari engages fully in harer namanukirtanam—chanting and hearing the glories of the Lord. He restrains himself from the vibrations of material sounds, and his hearing is engaged in the transcendental sound vibration of Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna. Similarly, the householders, who have some license for sense gratification, perform such acts with great restraint. Sex life, intoxication and meat eating are general tendencies of human society, but a regulated householder does not indulge in unrestricted sex life and other sense gratifications. Marriage on principles of religious life is therefore current in all civilized human society because that is the way for restricted sex life. This restricted, unattached sex life is also a kind of yajna because the restricted householder sacrifices his general tendency toward sense gratification for higher transcendental life.

 

 

Of course this is Srila Prabhupada, this is my master. This is my VOWS

 

CB-r