vow - hunter to Narada

theist · March 2, 2007

yes braj, you have stated it correctly and concisely. But it won't be accepted by these two they have their motives and fantasies to hold onto.

The good thing is your post will have good effect in protecting others.

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

Just because because 8+2 doesn't = 12 doesn't mean it must equal 14. That Srila Swami Maharaj was mistreated and his diciples misundertoood or didn't hear his instructions, or even prevented them from being heard, doesn't prove your point. I refuse to speculate by 'reading between the lines' unless you have clear instructions that he didn't intend his initiated disciples to follow the 4 regs. That's all this is about. You are working off an assumption of his will, I am saying please substantiate that point with some facts. Otherwise you should rethink your position on how to implement daiva varnashrama dharma. Not whether or not but how. Are you a devotee or a ksatriya? Srila Swami Maharaj said you aren't both, though you may play a role as a varna you aren't in a varna. Unless you are choosing to identify with the varna instead of as a devotee.

Now I understand that we want to see ourselves as aspiring devotees, not thinking ourselves qualified, but it is through the grace of Guru through initiation and acceptance of the four regulative principals that we enter into the sphere of the devotees. Once we do so, we shoud be chaste to those vows or be honest that we have broken them.

The mathmatics are Sine, Cosine, Tangent. With 2 elements of a triangle we can use one of these formulas to asertain the third missing piece/element. Be it length or angle. With the third element we also get area, which we couldn't get with a missing part to the formula.

The missing 'facts' as you say have been post thread bare.

CB-r

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

What a weird twisted question. If you wqant to sharpen you fighting skills for a time of war I would suggest Boot Camp in the US military. They have a very good program set up for such people.

Trying to move into a fantasy world one extracts from scriptures written in past times and trying to enact them in modern times is more than foolish.

Hey here is an idea for your fantasy games. Instead of killing innocent and peaceful creatures of the forest you could all take paint ball guns and play war. You might make a mess in the forest but at least you wouldnt need to kill anything.

I've been in the Army, 10th SF, Fort Devin Mass. I was told to get out by my Guru. All gunda He says. No place for ksatriya.

If you really believe what you said about 'writen in past times' then stop reading SB!

Paint ball is great, if I only had the money for toys. To poor:crying2:

CB-r

brajeshwara das · March 2, 2007

The mathmatics are Sine, Cosine, Tangent. With 2 elements of a triangle we can use one of these formulas to asertain the third missing piece/element. Be it length or angle. With the third element we also get area, which we couldn't get with a missing part to the formula.

The missing 'facts' as you say have been post thread bare.

CB-r

The fact that Srila Swami Maharaj intended his initiated diciples to take different sets of vows has not been posted. That the students of his varnashrama college or the greater society at large would follow different sets of regulations by their varna isn't what is in dispute. This is about initiation and vows. This is about bhakti yoga.

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

yes braj, you have stated it correctly and concisely. But it won't be accepted by these two they have their motives and fantasies to hold onto.

The good thing is your post will have good effect in protecting others.

What about 'in our centers' escapes you and Braj? Is it really that esoteric. The answer when Srila Prabhupada is asked where, is quite plain you know.

CB-r

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

The fact that Srila Swami Maharaj intended his initiated diciples to take different sets of vows has not been posted. That the students of his varnashrama college or the greater society at large would follow different sets of regulations by their varna isn't what is in dispute. This is about initiation and vows. This is about bhakti yoga.

This is a relivent DVD conversation on April 20 1974 about our ISKCON. And directly says sudra will get everything, including initiations.

Someone once said 'Now run to the folio" I only need it to post. If you knew me, you would see that my book(all) are full of post-its, to mark most of what I referance from the folio. I've study this for 34 yrs. I don't need to make up anything, it is plainly there already.

Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krishna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.

Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krishna, he is Vaishnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaishnava. He is above all these.

Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?

Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as kshatriya, like that.

sa gunan samatityaitan

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

mam ca vyabhicarini

bhakti-yogena yah sevate

[bg. 14.26]

A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?

Prabhupada: Everything he will get.

Mahamsa: He gets.

Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: “Now he has become fully competent Vaishnava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant.

Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, “I can do so much. I can...,”

Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaishnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krishna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krishna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krishna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [sB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krishna. Jaya. That is wanted.

(CB-r)

This is the third time I'm posting this, it is very plain for the simple, honest.

This is from 2/15/77

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

CB-r

brajeshwara das · March 2, 2007

What about 'in our centers' escapes you and Braj? Is it really that esoteric. The answer when Srila Prabhupada is asked where, is quite plain you know.

CB-r

'In our centers' doesn't say anything about initiation or vows. 'In our centers' also the varnas would be recognized for the administration of the material order, but this doesn't mean you don't follow the regulative principals if you accept the vows during initiation. And Srila Swami Maharaj was clear that the devotees were not in the varnas.

You show me where he says different vows for different initiations. I will be happy to accept if this is the case. Otherwise you are speculating.

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

This is a relivent DVD conversation on April 20 1974 about our ISKCON. And directly says sudra will get everything, including initiations.

Someone once said 'Now run to the folio" I only need it to post. If you knew me, you would see that my book(all) are full of post-its, to mark most of what I referance from the folio. I've study this for 34 yrs. I don't need to make up anything, it is plainly there already.

Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krishna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.

Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krishna, he is Vaishnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaishnava. He is above all these.

Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?

Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as kshatriya, like that.

sa gunan samatityaitan

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

mam ca vyabhicarini

bhakti-yogena yah sevate

[bg. 14.26]

A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?

Prabhupada: Everything he will get.

Mahamsa: He gets.

Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: “Now he has become fully competent Vaishnava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant.

Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, “I can do so much. I can...,”

Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaishnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krishna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krishna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krishna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [sB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krishna. Jaya. That is wanted.

(CB-r)

This is the third time I'm posting this, it is very plain for the simple, honest.

This is from 2/15/77

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

Prabhupada: No, no.

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

CB-r

Where has Srila Prabhupada said that sudra MUST follow 4 reg's before getting second. He does not!! Do you think it is a mistake? Do you think Prabhupada has forgotten about 4regs in such an important conversation as trying to instruct His disciples about DVD in ISKCON??? NO!!! This is a change not a mistake.

When asked twice in one conv. Prabhupada replies.....

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

brajeshwara das · March 2, 2007

Where has Srila Prabhupada said that sudra MUST follow 4 reg's before getting second. He does not!! Do you think it is a mistake? Do you think Prabhupada has forgotten about 4regs in such an important conversation as trying to instruct His disciples about DVD in ISKCON??? NO!!! This is a change not a mistake.

When asked twice in one conv. Prabhupada replies.....

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Is he talking about his initiated disciples or sudras, ksatriyas in general society? Where does he say these are initiated Hari Nam disciples? Context is critical here.

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

'In our centers' doesn't say anything about initiation or vows. 'In our centers' also the varnas would be recognized for the administration of the material order, but this doesn't mean you don't follow the regulative principals if you accept the vows during initiation. And Srila Swami Maharaj was clear that the devotees were not in the varnas.

You show me where he says different vows for different initiations. I will be happy to accept if this is the case. Otherwise you are speculating.

Read line for line in these conversations and then you reply with a counter explaination that will satisfy you contention. Three main conver. I'm using 3/12-14/74, 4/20/74, 2/15/77. Or your the 'speculator'

CB-r

brajeshwara das · March 2, 2007

Read line for line in these conversations and then you reply with a counter explaination that will satisfy you contention. Three main conver. I'm using 3/12-14/74, 4/20/74, 2/15/77. Or your the 'speculator'

CB-r

You are the one making the assumption, you need to prove your point. I am not the one making the speculation. Post it for all to see. What is the context of the conversation, was he talking about initiated disciples or just about the varnas in general? Was he saying if you have already taken initiation and made vows that it is OK for you to break them?

You are the one posting the notion that initiated disciples fall into four varnas and have different regs to follow. You need to provide substantial evidence for this if you want to be taken seriously.

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

Is he talking about his initiated disciples or sudras, ksatriyas in general society? Where does he say these are initiated Hari Nam disciples? Context is critical here.

Read the whole conversation then, I don't mind. I've not changed context, this is in ISKCON. That necissaraly mean His followers.

Where does He say they ARE NOT initiated or will never be as long as they stay meat eaters? Same question.

Unwriten, or understood is not good enough to defeat this VOW

CB-r

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

You are the one making the assumption, you need to prove your point. I am not the one making the speculation. Post it for all to see. What is the context of the conversation, was he talking about initiated disciples or just about the varnas in general? Was he saying if you have already taken initiation and made vows that it is OK for you to break them?

You are the one posting the notion that initiated disciples fall into four varnas and have different regs to follow. You need to provide substantial evidence for this if you want to be taken seriously.

I have proved my point, many times over. Books, conversations. It is you that resists the truth.

CB-r

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

'In our centers' doesn't say anything about initiation or vows. 'In our centers' also the varnas would be recognized for the administration of the material order, but this doesn't mean you don't follow the regulative principals if you accept the vows during initiation. And Srila Swami Maharaj was clear that the devotees were not in the varnas.

You show me where he says different vows for different initiations. I will be happy to accept if this is the case. Otherwise you are speculating.

Silly rabbit, this truth is for sadhikas of Srila Prabhupada.

CB-r

brajeshwara das · March 2, 2007

All I can say is good luck with that then, if that is how you wish to interpret things. It is clear you have you mind made up and no flexibility exists. You are right even if you are wrong. I've said my peace, you disagree and I see no further point in arguing. Hari bol.

bhaktatraveler · March 2, 2007

All I can say is good luck with that then, if that is how you wish to interpret things. It is clear you have you mind made up and no flexibility exists. You are right even if you are wrong. I've said my peace, you disagree and I see no further point in arguing. Hari bol.

So much evidence you asked for and rejected on a whim. I asked you to read all the conversations then respond with a counter arguement based on the conversations in question...

3/12-14/74

4/20/74

2/14/77

Please read and YOU tell me where I have gone wrong. I am willing to do this with you.

CB-r

brajeshwara das · March 2, 2007

So much evidence you asked for and rejected on a whim. I asked you to read all the conversations then respond with a counter arguement based on the conversations in question...

3/12-14/74

4/20/77

3/15/77

Please read and YOU tell me where I have gone wrong. I am willing to do this with you.

CB-r

Both quotes from 3/14/74: It is clear to me that the varnashrama college is to be open to anyone, not initiated disciples only, the varnas come first, and that the ashrams and spiritual life come later. Therefore to be in the varnas is not necessarily that one is initiated, just training to get to the human platform on the way to the ashrams:

Prabhupāda: ...technological college. Similarly, this is another college, varṇāśrama college.
Satsvarūpa: For the public in general?

Prabhupāda: Eh? Yes. Anyone. Just like engineering college is open for anyone. He must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, this varṇāśrama college, he must be ready, the student, must be ready to take up the training.

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

So then the devotees are not in the varnashrama but above it, but act within it as good examples:

Hṛdayānanda: From the very beginning we should teach Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But our, our position is that we are above varṇāśrama. But for management or ideal society, we are introducing this. We, so far we are concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above varṇāśrama. But to show the people that we are not escaping, we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean I am shoemaker. My position is the same. But to show how to do it... Just like a servant is doing. The master is, "Oh, you cannot do. Just see." Just like I show you sometimes how to mop. So I am not a mopper, but I am showing how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to any varṇa and āśrama. But we have to show these rascals. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja. He, he was perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king, he was fighting like anything. Not that, "Oh, I am now become Vaiṣṇava. I cannot kill." What is this? He killed like anything. When the Yakṣas attacked his kingdom, he was killing like anything then the Yakṣa-rāja came and asked him to pardon this. He immediately accepted. So he wanted to give him some benediction, that "You are so great that simply on my request, you have stopped killing these rascals, Yakṣas. So you can take some benediction from me." He said, "That's all right. Thank you. You give me the benediction that I may be a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa. That's all." This benediction he asked. Although he was so powerful and, the Yakṣa-rāja, he could give him the wealth of the whole universe. But he made that, "Thank you very much. You give me this benediction that I may remain a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything, but his aim is to please Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to varṇāśrama, we do not belong to any... Just like Kṛṣṇa says, mayā sṛṣṭam. "I have inaugurated." But Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with varṇāśrama. Similarly, if we act as varṇāśrama, still, we have nothing to do with the varṇāśrama.

Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must be, must learn the art of fighting also. But in a practical you are not going to fight. If required, you can fight. I say that we are above all these varṇāśrama, but we must train others or ourself also for material activities, everything, under these divisions.

And killing:

Hṛdayānanda: So just to clarify, Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you've made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gītā and then, side by side, they learn a...
Prabhupāda: Four regulative principles compulsory.

Hṛdayānanda: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But if some of the kṣatriya or the śūdras, they want, so that is our prescription: "Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that." That's all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you'll find, the kṣatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That's all. Finish. Kill him. Bās. Finished. So other will see, "Oh, the ruler is very strong." And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. "Kill him." That's all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bās. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

March 15 and April 20th of 1977 don't appear to be correct dates for the conversations you mention. Please provide the date where to find this.

I don't see the conversation where Srila Swami Maharaj says some can eat meat, and this is really what is likely the key, not necessarily about meat but who he is saying can eat it. Not killing, we take no vow not to kill, that is understood. But we do take a vow not to eat meat. My point is that when you join in the ashrams, when you become initiated, you are held to that vow. If there is a place Srila Swami Maharaj talks about initiation and the varnas I would like to read that.

Above all things, I don't want to cause any offense to the vaisnavas and that is why I don't wish to argue with you. We have read much the same things and come to different conclusions. That is not unheard of. As long as you are willing to discuss it rationally, I'm happy to continue.

Bhakta Devarsi · March 2, 2007

Both quotes from 3/14/74: It is clear to me that the varnashrama college is to be open to anyone, not initiated disciples only, the varnas come first, and that the ashrams and spiritual life come later. Therefore to be in the varnas is not necessarily that one is initiated, just training to get to the human platform on the way to the ashrams:

So then the devotees are not in the varnashrama but above it, but act within it as good examples:

And killing:

March 15 and April 20th of 1977 don't appear to be correct dates for the conversations you mention. Please provide the date where to find this.

I don't see the conversation where Srila Swami Maharaj says some can eat meat, and this is really what is likely the key, not necessarily about meat but who he is saying can eat it. Not killing, we take no vow not to kill, that is understood. But we do take a vow not to eat meat. My point is that when you join in the ashrams, when you become initiated, you are held to that vow. If there is a place Srila Swami Maharaj talks about initiation and the varnas I would like to read that.

Above all things, I don't want to cause any offense to the vaisnavas and that is why I don't wish to argue with you. We have read much the same things and come to different conclusions. That is not unheard of. As long as you are willing to discuss it rationally, I'm happy to continue.

I don't see the conversation where Srila Swami Maharaj says some can eat meat,

It was JUST posted on page 2 of THIS thread. I found it pretty easy, but then of course I had not far to look, because I remember JUST READING IT.

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

The proof was already posted in its entirety.