vow - hunter to Narada

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Bhima didn't take a vow from his Guru not to eat meat. Look at the way a ksatriya honors his vows, look at Bhisma.

 

I didn't either:)

 

CB-r

[bhaktatraveler]

 

He was saying they were for the varnashrama college, which would be open to the public. In preparation for the ashrams.

 

You conveniently keep rejecting SrilaPrabhupada saying in our centers with our people......

 

2/14/77(r2)

 

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

 

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

 

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

 

 

How much more plain can that be? Go to the conversation, see that it is not taken out of context.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

When in disagreement, is it a ksatriya trait to lob insults? Not like that one hurts, just it doesn't help in a respectful conversation. Please refrain from personal attacks.

 

Read Mahabharata, the Ganguli edition. Great fun.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

I didn't either:)

 

CB-r

 

So no problem then

[bhaktatraveler]

 

So no problem then

 

Thank you:)

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

You conveniently keep rejecting SrilaPrabhupada saying in our centers with our people......

 

2/14/77(r2)

 

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

 

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

 

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

 

 

How much more plain can that be? Go to the conversation, see that it is not taken out of context.

 

Like you said, you didn't take a vow for the 4 regs, and if ISKCON starts with some other system where not all 4 are part of the agreement with Guru per the varnasharama system, I have no problem. But if someone does take the vows to follow the regs, there's no question they should follow, even if the regs change later. Unless Guru says they are retroactively reduced. This is personal for me because I don't follow, I drink caffeine and have sex with my wife even though we aren't trying to make babies. You know how it goes. I'm still a materialist and struggling to even make a half-hearted attempt at surrender.

 

That is the point of this thread IMO, following whatever regs you agree to, and the challenges in doing so. Can we not make this all about daiva varnashrama dharma? I think there is much to learn just in talking about how you overcome fall-down from not following, or if you just can't follow how you continue on etc. My wife got me a espresso machine recently for example. Maya is everywhere!

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Bhakta Devarsi

In preparation for the ashrams? That is a concoction.

Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa. And āśrama, then, when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then āśrama. Āśrama is specially meant for spiritual advancement, and varṇa is general division. It must be there in the human society, or they're on the animals. If varṇa is not there, then this is a society of animal. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them āśrama. Varṇāśrama. That is later on.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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I was wrong. I like what he says anyway, and in any event, He was making these distinctions properly concerning one dimension of the definition of the process he was initiating, trying to cement the concept with us, while simultaneously that was only part of the truth, because there is not a possibility of one being engaged in their varna, as per varnasrama, without having been twice born, at least in the heart. We know this is the essence. To use a portion of the definition and point to it as the end all definitive, is a blunder.

 

In varnasramas past, the sudras were aspiring to be twice born.

 

In Krsna Consciousness movement DVD, any one taking direction from a Vaisnava and following nicely, if they are being engaged by that Vaisnava as a sudra, they are considered Vaisnava, as in Brahmacarya at least. They may even be told they are not in an ashram yet, but you and I know the WHOLE truth. Just for the record, so we can assist them, someone needs to see the big picture. It does not diminish the method of giving only some of the truth in the beginnning. Please see this.

 

Just as he says the factory worker giving his fruits to Iskcon as being essentially a sanyassin.

 

We are essence seekers, so why pretend? Essentially, someone comes to the transcendental trickster's Varnasrama College and is engaged according to their "Varna", if they accept they are automatically in Ashrama.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

Thank you:)

 

CB-r

 

You're welcome

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

But if someone does take the vows to follow the regs, there's no question they should follow, even if the regs change later.

 

I believe this is your last hurdle.

 

IN ESSENCE, Srila Prabhupada ordered new vows to be given. He just had to get it on record. The regs did change. And so did alot of peripheral rules which are to be followed just as strictly as a vow, if you want advancement.

 

So in essence, those giving initiations on Srila Prabhupada's behalf in the later years were in disobedience as to the vows they were holding everyone to.

 

Those with some brahminical capacity were able to hang on longer.

 

It is quite simple.

 

So when someone later is told about the conspiracy to withhold the truth, and breaks down crying remembering the torture they put themselves through trying to be more like a brahmana, thinking of suicide because they were haplessly breaking rules they could never really keep and didn't make sense for them. Even if they followed most of the 4 regs in their negative connotation, their positive engagement was never enough to fill the void, and it was false repression and renunciation the whole way.

 

They are overjoyed to hear that the 4 regs are tailor made to them, without loosing their essence, and that a wide range of other rules were meant in the same light.

 

And someone wants them to follow the original "vows" they were tricked into?

 

That is like saying there can be consensual sex between a 12 year old girl and a 30 year old man. She doesn't even know what she is consenting to.

 

In the same way, after Srila Prabhupada changed the rules, the Transcendental Shabda permeated the ether, and that was the standard henceforward, the Guna and Karma of all Jiva's to approach his movement from then on perfectly accounted for by his Dictator, Sri Paramatma.

 

Let the people go. In love, they will return.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Like you said, you didn't take a vow for the 4 regs, and if ISKCON starts with some other system where not all 4 are part of the agreement with Guru per the varnasharama system, I have no problem. But if someone does take the vows to follow the regs, there's no question they should follow, even if the regs change later. Unless Guru says they are retroactively reduced. This is personal for me because I don't follow, I drink caffeine and have sex with my wife even though we aren't trying to make babies. You know how it goes. I'm still a materialist and struggling to even make a half-hearted attempt at surrender.

 

That is the point of this thread IMO, following whatever regs you agree to, and the challenges in doing so. Can we not make this all about daiva varnashrama dharma? I think there is much to learn just in talking about how you overcome fall-down from not following, or if you just can't follow how you continue on etc. My wife got me a espresso machine recently for example. Maya is everywhere!

 

Yes, maya is every where, so best to bunker down in close communities giving supportive strength to follow better and better........again I thought this pertanate................................................4/20/74/mw. hydr.one of the best conversations on DVD....................

 

 

Pancadravida: What if the person cannot chant sixteen rounds a day. He says, “I can’t...”

 

Prabhupada: Then he is not even a human being. He is a rascal. That’s all. He is not a human being. What to consider of talking...? Don’t talk about him if he cannot chant sixteen rounds. He is not even a human. He is animal. [break]

 

Pancadravida: ...even he may be employed as factory worker or something.

 

Prabhupada: Well, if you take factory workers are better than animals, that is another thing.

 

Nitai: One point that you made a few years ago in Vrindavana was that this demoniac civilization, especially in U.S.A., keeps a man so much engaged, they make them work so hard, just to earn the simple necessities of life, that they don’t have time to cultivate spiritual life.

 

Prabhupada: Well, if he likes, he can get time because he is not in the factory twenty-four hours. But if one... That is explained, apratihata. Krishna consciousness cannot be checked by any material condition. If anyone wants to become Krishna conscious, it is not checked. So there is nothing impediment, provided he wants to become. In any condition of life, sthane sthitah, if he simply hears about Krishna then everything is all right. He will gradually catch up everything and adjust things. But if he has no ears to hear about Krishna, then it is difficult. Therefore sravanam. The first thing is that. The first qualification—he must be eager to hear about Krishna. Then everything will come. Sravanam kirtanam vishnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [sB 7.5.23]. [break]

Pancadravida: ...such devotees that they do service, they may be very big, they attract so many people, they are successful, kirtana and everything, but we know they are not chanting japa. What can we do in that situation? Are we...

 

Prabhupada: Situation, he is doing some service. He is doing some service.

 

Pancadravida: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: So because on account of that service, if he could not, that can be excused. But not that practice should be taken as permanent business. The regulation is that if you cannot finish your chanting that day, then next day you should forget sleeping and eating and must finish it.

 

Pancadravida: Some persons we encounter they don’t even chant at all, and yet we are in association with them, and they are...

 

Prabhupada: No, if you miss on account of busy-ness, then next day you must finish it. You should not go to sleep. You should not... Yes, that day you should forget all other business. First of all compensate this.

 

Satsvarupa: Some devotees have it as a chronic condition, though.

 

Prabhupada: Then he is animal.

 

Satsvarupa: But still, he’s doing lots of good devotional service.

 

Pancadravida: He may even be manager.

 

Prabhupada: Then they will get some chance later on. What is that devotee, if you do not follow the regulative principles? The business is that if one day you cannot, but finish. The next day you must finish. Now, for eating, he is very eager, and for sleeping, he is very eager, and for finishing chanting, he has no eagerness. Then he is animal. It is simply an excuse. Yesterday you had no time? You were very busy? All right. Today you forget your sleeping and eating. Finish it. That is wanted. [break] And only for chanting, you have no time. This is not allowed. This is not allowed. This is cheating, that “I am so busy.”

 

Pancadravida: Most of these devotees in Hyderabad, they are chanting twenty-five rounds a day or more.

 

Prabhupada: That’s all right. If you can chant more, that is good. [break]

 

Pancadravida: ...must associate with them, that is difficult.

 

Prabhupada: But you do your business. You don’t follow them. That’s all. You remain perfect. There are many imperfects, admitting, but you try to remain perfect so that they may see you, your behavior, and they may follow you. If everyone is sincere in his activity, then where is the question? The society means if I am defective, I am seeing that you are doing nicely, so I will be ashamed. That is also teaching. Actually that should be the practice. If I cannot finish my sixteen rounds due to some business, then next day I must finish it. If you say that “Next day also, I am busy,” then you should forego your eating and sleeping and finish it. That is the way. You are so busy, but you do not forget your eating and sleeping. That is cheating. If you are so busy that you forget your eating and sleeping, then I can consider that you are very busy. But you do not forget this portion. “Whenever there is opportunity, I sleep and eat. And I have no time for chanting”—this is cheating. How long you can go on by cheating? You must finish it. Hare Krishna. Somebody, after initiation he promises, “Yes, I shall follow these rules and regulations. I shall chant sixteen rounds,” before the fire, before the Deity, before the guru, and if he does not follow, then he is a cheater. What to speak of his becoming a Vaishnava, he is a cheater. He breaks all his promises. Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating.

 

 

 

What I like is the mood is even that the person that is 'animal' he is not removed from service nor asked to leave/kicked out. He is made to be ashamed because everyone else is doing there VOWS in the community. So by others examples and his own guilt he has some chance.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I believe this is your last hurdle.

 

IN ESSENCE, Srila Prabhupada ordered new vows to be given. He just had to get it on record. The regs did change. And so did alot of peripheral rules which are to be followed just as strictly as a vow, if you want advancement.

 

So in essence, those giving initiations on Srila Prabhupada's behalf in the later years were in disobedience as to the vows they were holding everyone to.

 

Those with some brahminical capacity were able to hang on longer.

 

It is quite simple.

 

So when someone later is told about the conspiracy to withhold the truth, and breaks down crying remembering the torture they put themselves through trying to be more like a brahmana, thinking of suicide because they were haplessly breaking rules they could never really keep and didn't make sense for them. Even if they followed most of the 4 regs in their negative connotation, their positive engagement was never enough to fill the void, and it was false repression and renunciation the whole way.

 

They are overjoyed to hear that the 4 regs are tailor made to them, without loosing their essence, and that a wide range of other rules were meant in the same light.

 

And someone wants them to follow the original "vows" they were tricked into?

 

That is like saying there can be consensual sex between a 12 year old girl and a 30 year old man. She doesn't even know what she is consenting to.

 

In the same way, after Srila Prabhupada changed the rules, the Transcendental Shabda permeated the ether, and that was the standard henceforward, the Guna and Karma of all Jiva's to approach his movement from then on perfectly accounted for by his Dictator, Sri Paramatma.

 

Let the people go. In love, they will return.

 

Hare Krsna

 

 

Again, what Bk Devarsi said.

[bija]

 

What do you do when you can't keep your vows but still want to serve? i have a problem with marijuana. quote guestondope

Keep trying to quit until you succeed. Keep chanting, reading etc. but do not become complacent and see this addiction as complementary to your spiritual life. But by all means continue with your service while you have this addiction.

 

 

 

Myself the only way I could stop smoking ganja was to strictly avoid associating with anyone that has even the slightest connection to it......How many of your friends smoke? Are you really friends to each other while keeping each other high? Hard choices to make on this one. quote by theist

I agree with theist here. Sometimes we have to break right away from such association. While we are getting high we have have fun times and friendship with each other. But if we are self-honest we can see that many of these friendships are not quality friendships. But often centered around the drug, assisting each other with a drug habit. When the drugs are taken out of the picture true friends will remain...and over time, other friends who beat the addiction will come back in your life (if they are true).

 

 

Keep serving and increase attachment to that serving. At some point notice how being stoned detracts from the quality of your service and then make the right choice when considering tapering way off or quiting in preference of increased quality of service. quote by theist

Another good point by theist. It all comes down to quality of consciousness really. Once a higher and clear consciousness is tasted in oneself, this consciousness clouded by marijuana will not be desirable. If you can give up the drugs and sincerely practice yoga you will taste a consciousness which is clear and full of light. And each time you fall back into the addiction, you will notice that this clearness of consciousness will disappear. And all you are left with is marijuana consciousness. Which is consciousness touched by the mode of ignorance.

 

So work toward the higher taste, higher consciousness, then you will understand that these other tastes are inferior by nauture. Then if you are sincere in your endeavours to realize God...these inferior tastes will fall away one by one.

 

Keep trying until you succeed. And keep practicing bhakti-yoga until you do. It may take some years, and some serious falldown and relapse. But if you are sincere in desiring success in beating addiction, and meeting God by tasting your higher consciousness (Krsna consciousness), you will get there.

 

I hope this helps in some small way. These are just my personal experiences of overcoming a marijuana addiction that plagued me for years. It is worth it...once higher consciousness is discovered in oneself, tastes in the mode of ignorance are not desired. This clearer consciousness becomes a treasure that you will desire to protect at all costs. And not wish to destroy and lose by getting high. 'The pearl of great price.'

 

Jaya Gauranga Mahaprabhu...happy Gaura Purnima!

 

In your service...

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Again, what Bk Devarsi said.

And this is backed up nicely by Srila Prabhupada's own words.

 

"Therefore after seeing, observing a person is doing everything, then say second initiation, or then he should not be recommended for second initiation unless the president and the other authorities see that he is doing nicely, he is following. Otherwise he should not be recommended. If he is recommended, that is also another cheating. If you know that this person is not following the rules and regulation, then why should you recommend him? Then it is another cheating."

In the same way, Caturbahu, et al were cheated. Not exactly according to the context of the above quote, but remember that the peripheral rules and regs to support the 4 regs and chanting were being uniformly applied to everyone and they were brahminical. This is what Srila Prabhupada was trying to avoid at this point. Not so much change in the basic 4 regs, but everything supporting them by varna.

 

Taking responsibility for being cheated is not equivalent to maintaining any vow one was cheated into making due to naivete.

 

No need for the self-flagellation once the calvary arrives.

 

Make the necessary adjustments, and move on.

[brajeshwara das]

 

I believe this is your last hurdle.

 

IN ESSENCE, Srila Prabhupada ordered new vows to be given. He just had to get it on record. The regs did change. And so did alot of peripheral rules which are to be followed just as strictly as a vow, if you want advancement.

 

So in essence, those giving initiations on Srila Prabhupada's behalf in the later years were in disobedience as to the vows they were holding everyone to.

 

This is still speculation. It could be true, it could be false, it could be somewhere in between. I'm frankly tired of the subject. Anyhow, it is your business and I'll leave it to you. May the truth prevail.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

This is still speculation. It could be true, it could be false, it could be somewhere in between. I'm frankly tired of the subject. Anyhow, it is your business and I'll leave it to you. May the truth prevail.

 

Actually, when you discover it is very much YOUR business also, then the truth will prevail. Good luck.

 

Hare Krsna

[brajeshwara das]

 

Sometimes we have to break right away from such association.

 

I agree, but also feel sometimes we can't abandon some associations lightly. I have a dear Godbrother that has an issue with intoxication. I was told by my temple president at one point to avoid his association. When I told him I couldn't do that because he was such a dear old friend, he told me to be his good association then, don't let him be my bad association. Make the relationship beneficial for both, and don't allow it to be detrimental.

 

Of course I fell down all by myself and did get intoxicated with my friend, but that's a different story. Whether I followed the advice or not was up to me, but it was good advice, though hard to do. I knew it was a risk.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Actually, when you discover it is very much YOUR business also, then the truth will prevail. Good luck.

 

Hare Krsna

 

What I'm saying is ISKCON is the mission you serve, I'm not involved with changing ISKCON's internal affairs, so it isn't 'my business'. That doesn't mean I'm not concerned with what develops there. I wouldn't be talking with you about this otherwise.

 

But just to be completely honest, you guys though have sounded off like a couple of gun-nut A-team whackos on several occasions that gives me pause as to your judgment if ever allowed to assume a position of power. This may be totally inaccurate and don't take it too seriously, but when looking to change the government you have to be concerned as to who may fill the vaccuum. Sometimes the revolutionaries are great at overthrow but suck badly as rulers. I hope that makes sense to you This is half joking and half not.

 

Anyhow, I wish you well and hope you are successful in pleasing your Srila Swami Maharaj. Happy Gaura Purnima!

[brajeshwara das]

Oh, and feel free to say I come off as a pot-smoking commie hippy. That's not that far from the truth;)

[bija]

 

I agree, but also feel sometimes we can't abandon some associations lightly. I have a dear Godbrother that has an issue with intoxication. I was told by my temple president at one point to avoid his association. When I told him I couldn't do that because he was such a dear old friend, he told me to be his good association then, don't let him be my bad association. Make the relationship beneficial for both, and don't allow it to be detrimental.

 

Of course I fell down all by myself and did get intoxicated with my friend, but that's a different story. Whether I followed the advice or not was up to me, but it was good advice, though hard to do. I knew it was a risk. quote by braj

 

Good advice from your temple president, braj. If we truly love our friends, and wish to help them in their suffering, sometimes the best thing we can do is leave for a time. If we truly love them they will understand this. Your temple presidents advice about being good association for your friend was spot on...wasn't it?

 

Depending on the strength and nature of our addiction, we may have to do things depending on circumstance. A true friendhip will last through thick and thin...and personally I find the best thing I can do for my old friends is to live a clean life and express an example of my ideals.

 

Just last week a friend of mine who has battled alcoholism ( and suicide attempts) visited me after three years of separation. He had recently had an awakening and encounter with God. We talked together for hours. It was most fulfilling. We shared about the journey, the nature of addiction, and of course the wonder of enlightenment. A small encounter like this makes it all worth while for me.

 

I often reflect on Christ's words regarding all this. He said, 'lay down your life for your friends.' This is true friendship.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

What I'm saying is ISKCON is the mission you serve, I'm not involved with changing ISKCON's internal affairs, so it isn't 'my business'. That doesn't mean I'm not concerned with what develops there. I wouldn't be talking with you about this otherwise.

 

But just to be completely honest, you guys though have sounded off like a couple of gun-nut A-team whackos on several occasions that gives me pause as to your judgment if ever allowed to assume a position of power. This may be totally inaccurate and don't take it too seriously, but when looking to change the government you have to be concerned as to who may fill the vaccuum. Sometimes the revolutionaries are great at overthrow but suck badly as rulers. I hope that makes sense to you This is half joking and half not.

 

Anyhow, I wish you well and hope you are successful in pleasing your Srila Swami Maharaj. Happy Gaura Purnima!

 

The problem for me is I'm a bad revolutionary and a good vaccum filler, daily determination to pursevere over the long haul. But no good at turning the tied.

 

CB-r

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

What I'm saying is ISKCON is the mission you serve, I'm not involved with changing ISKCON's internal affairs, so it isn't 'my business'. That doesn't mean I'm not concerned with what develops there. I wouldn't be talking with you about this otherwise.

 

But just to be completely honest, you guys though have sounded off like a couple of gun-nut A-team whackos on several occasions that gives me pause as to your judgment if ever allowed to assume a position of power. This may be totally inaccurate and don't take it too seriously, but when looking to change the government you have to be concerned as to who may fill the vaccuum. Sometimes the revolutionaries are great at overthrow but suck badly as rulers. I hope that makes sense to you This is half joking and half not.

 

Anyhow, I wish you well and hope you are successful in pleasing your Srila Swami Maharaj. Happy Gaura Purnima!

Hare Krsna!

 

I feel good about what you just said. Least understood about the Ksyatria spirit is their impulsiveness within the material plane. It is a shadow of the spontaneity of the Lord's good person. When channeled by Vedic knowledge, we are talking the Maharajarsi, and the mode of goodness is prominent in such a great devotee.

 

So on their way up, being trained by Srila Prabhupada from whatever exit they got off of the samsara highway into the transcendental express, there will be some non-vedic conditioning to work through, thus caution is imperative.

 

In the SAME WAY, the Ksyatria tests the ones who pose to instruct based on the Absolute truth of Acharya and sastra to be sure they have the brahminical qualifications to do so. If not they need to be reprimanded and remanded into the hands of their guru for further training, and if they were altogether out of varna, their guru will expect to be checked on it. Speaking with authority without the backing is only to be done as a schoolboy among friends, or in the mock debates administered by the head master. Not among the innocent public of Kali Yuga.

 

If they are rogue, speaking in public as if with authority, yet answering to noone, we know what Bhaktivinode Thakur did to the Bogi Yogi with the powerful siddhis. Threw away the key.

 

By the way, I serve the spirit of the International Society of Krsna Consciousness, which includes a recognizable institution on planet earth.

 

Srila Prabhupada envisioned a unified society. International in scope. Call it what you want, that was his goal. He planeted the seed, and he let it grow as it is. This is my specialty. Permaculture. Organic process. So I am just tending his garden. I have some quirky and diverse skills, he makes use of them in such amazing ways, considering my tendency to ignorance.

 

He saw non sectarian removal of false boundaries among Vaisnavas by a unified and clearly delineated philosophy of spiritual service, and material management occuring simultaneously. A brahminical head which would quickly recruit the rest of the body through the sweet song of the Bhagavad Gita.

 

A brahmana who cannot recognize and accept the deeper truth of the Ksyatria varna will have little success at satisfying A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami, and assumedly any other Gaudiya Acharya who of course work in harmony towards the Shaktavesha Avatars goals, and never preach in a confusing manner or one that would contradict such a great Acharya's recent teachings for the whole west. The Harmonist and his General are overseeing the whole show.

 

Jaya Gaura Hari!

[bhaktatraveler]

How to keep the vow of no illicit sex life.

 

 

SB. 4.27.8

TRANSLATION

After this, King Puranjana, King of the Pancala country, in order to increase the descendants of his paternal family, married his sons with qualified wives and married his daughters with qualified husbands.

 

PURPORT

According to the Vedic system, everyone should marry. One has to accept a wife because a wife will produce children, and the children in their turn will offer foodstuffs and funeral ceremonies so that the forefathers, wherever they may live, will be made happy. The offering of oblations in the name of Lord Vishnu is called pindodaka, and it is necessary that the descendants of a family offer pinda to the forefathers.

Not only was Puranjana, the King of Pancala, satisfied in his own sex life, but he arranged for the sex life of his 1,100 sons and 110 daughters. In this way one can elevate an aristocratic family to the platform of a dynasty. It is significant in this verse that Puranjana got both sons and daughters married. It is the duty of a father and mother to arrange for the marriage of their sons and daughters. That is the obligation in Vedic society. Sons and daughters should not be allowed freedom to intermingle with the opposite sex unless they are married. This Vedic social organization is very good in that it stops the promulgation of illicit sex life, or varna-sankara, which appears under different names in this present day. Unfortunately in this age although the father and mother are anxious to get their children married, the children refuse to get married by the arrangement of the parents. Consequently, the number of varna-sankara has increased throughout the world under different names.

 

 

SB 3.21.27

 

TRANSLATION

He has a grown-up daughter whose eyes are black. She is ready for marriage, and she has good character and all good qualities. She is also searching for a good husband. My dear sir, her parents will come to see you, who are exactly suitable for her, just to deliver their daughter as your wife.

PURPORT

The selection of a good husband for a good girl was always entrusted to the parents. Here it is clearly stated that Manu and his wife were coming to see Kardama Muni to offer their daughter because the daughter was well qualified and the parents were searching out a similarly qualified man. This is the duty of parents. Girls are never thrown into the public street to search out their husband, for when girls are grown up and are searching after a boy, they forget to consider whether the boy they select is actually suitable for them. Out of the urge of sex desire, a girl may accept anyone, but if the husband is chosen by the parents, they can consider who is to be selected and who is not. According to the Vedic system, therefore, the girl is given over to a suitable boy by the parents; she is never allowed to select her own husband independently.

 

 

SB 3.33.16

 

Similarly, Devahuti was the daughter of a great king, Svayambhuva Manu, and was qualified and beautiful, but she was completely dependent on the protection of her husband. According to Manu, women, the fair sex, should not have independence at any stage of life. In childhood a woman must be under the protection of the parents, in youth she must be under the protection of the husband, and in old age she must be under the protection of the grown children. Devahuti demonstrated all these statements of the Manu-samhita in her life: as a child she was dependent on her father, later she was dependent on her husband, in spite of her opulence, and she was later on dependent on her son, Kapiladeva.

 

 

Wedding Ceremony and Lecture, Boston 5/6/69

 

This evening we are going to hold a marriage ceremony for three couples of our students. The Krishna consciousness movement is to understand to always bear in mind or always be in consciousness that we are eternally related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So the process is to utilize this human form of life for elevating oneself to the highest perfectional stage. There is evolution of life from lowest animal in the water and up to the highest platform or highest planetary life, where the duration of life is many, many millions of years. The highest planetary system is called Brahmaloka, or where the first created being, Brahma, lives. The duration of Brahma’s life is explained in the Bhagavad-gita that forty-three hundred thousands of years multiplied by one thousand makes one twelve hours of that Brahmaloka. Just like there is distinction of the duration of life between the microbes and the human being, similarly, there are different grades of different duration of life in different stage of planetary system. So the life is evolving. Now after evolutionary process from the lower animals, from the aquatics to plant life, vegetable life, then microbes, reptiles, birds, beasts, then we come to the human form of life, this civilized form of life. Now here it is just like crossing. Where we should go next life? Whether I shall promote myself to the higher planetary system or into the spiritual sky, Vaikunthaloka, or I shall go down again in the evolutionary process of lower animals? That is to be decided. So if we want to go to the higher planetary system, we can go there. If we want to stay here, we can do that. If we want to go down, that we can do. And if we want to go back to Godhead, that also we can do. So this facility is given in this human form of life. Now it is our choice, where shall I go? Shall I go down to hell, or shall I go up to heaven, or I shall go back to Godhead, back to home? Everything we can do. So our this Krishna consciousness movement is directly approaching the spiritual sky, back to home, back to Godhead. No more evolutionary process. That is the advantage of this Krishna conscious... If you make your consciousness completely absorbed in Krishna, if you understand what is Krishna, what is your relationship, how you have to act in that relationship, simply if you learn this science in this life, then it is assured by the Lord Himself, Krishna, in the Bhagavad-gita, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya: [bg. 4.9] “After leaving this body, one does not come again back to this material world to accept one of the 8,400,000’s of species of body, but he goes directly unto Me.” Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama [bg. 15.6]. “And if one can go back there, then he does not come back again in this material world to accept this material body.” And material body means three kinds of miseries, threefold miseries always. And at least threefold miseries are exhibited in four kinds of distresses, namely birth, death, old age, and disease.

So this Krishna consciousness movement is not a new movement. It is there always in the Vedic scriptures, but people have forgotten. So we are trying to revive that movement, although in India the movement is there always, especially since the last five hundred years, introduced by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In your country it is introduced since 1966. But people are appreciating. We have got many books and literature, magazines, to convince people about the importance of this movement. And those who are coming to be a serious student of this movement, initiated, they require to follow four principles of regulation. That one, first regulation, is that the student is not allowed to have illicit sex life. In this country, the guardians, the teachers, the government allows the boys and girls to meet together and have illicit sex life without marriage. That is not allowed in Krishna consciousness movement. If any boy or girl wants sex life, then he should regularly be married. That is civilized way. Because in the civilized society there is marriage ceremony. According to Vedic system, the father and mother’s responsibility is for the child unless they are married. It is the duty of the parents to see that the girl and the boy is married by the supervision of the parents. That is the Vedic way of civilization. In India the... Especially for the girls. If the girl is above the age of 13 years old, and if she is not married by the father, or in the absence of father, the elder brother... Mother has not so much responsibility. But the father or the elder brother... Then it is said that that man, father or elder brother, will go to hell. So it is a great responsibility to take care of the girls. According to Manu-samhita, Vedic principle, woman has no independence. She must be taken care of by somebody. In the early age the father is to take care, in the younger age the husband, a good husband has to take care, and when she is old, the elderly son, he has to take care. But a woman is never allowed to remain independent. That is Vedic principle of life. Actually, the woman is the weaker sex. They require protection by good father, good husband, and good child also. In my case also... There are many cases. I’ve left my home. I have got my wife, my elderly children, my grandchildren. So they are taking care of my wife. She has no concern. So that is the way of social system. And especially in our Krishna consciousness movement, we want to give the students complete peace of mind, because without peace of mind nobody can cultivate Krishna consciousness. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

evam prasanna-manaso

bhagavad-bhakti-yogatah

bhagavat-tattva-vijnanam

mukta-sangasya jayate

[sB 1.2.20]

 

There is a process. This science of understanding God, the science of God, is a great science. People have no knowledge about it, but it is a great science. And the ways and means of understanding God is different from ordinary material science. So the ways and means and the process of understanding the science of Godhead is to hear.

 

 

So if we neglect to install DVD cosmology in our personal lives then how will we keep this vow of no illicit sex life? I was at the temple last night and I saw this DVD conspicuous by it's absents, illicit sex was rampent among the members. An obvious lack of spiritual and material leadership in a community.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[Bhakta Devarsi]

Hare Krsna

 

While reading the above post, I began to revisit memories of last night at the Gaura Purnima festival, and the literally dozens, plural, of girls between 9 and 19 who were presenting themselves to me. And to all the boys and men, in the same confused hormonal driven tama-guna mating rituals which I took part in as a child due to the poor fund of knowledge of my parents and community.

 

And while I smiled at them and was kind, inwardly it was tearing me up knowing the mediocre destiny of most of these girls, and the abuse some are destined to endure at the hands of some of the mudhas there who were all to pleased at the display, and took the opportunity to make some "advancement".

 

I have two words.

 

Sodom. Gomorrah.

 

So what a pickle. It would be hypocritical for me to be condemning and angry with them, but I should certainly not tolerate that type of behavior in my community without voicing my opinion.

 

And what detachment I must have, when if education is not received, we are looking at wholesale degradation of the society in short time, hard not to feel urgent about saving such from happening when you are young like me and still attached to desiring some modicum of humanity amidst our fakeroo knuckle dragging ape fest.

 

Preaching from the heart in situations like this will bring both some success and probable martyrdom. I guess thats just the way Krsna likes it.

 

Hari bol.

[theist]

 

Preaching from the heart in situations like this will bring both some success and probable martyrdom. I guess thats just the way Krsna likes it.

 

 

Martyrdom: an essential component of the messiah complex.

We better get those girls from 9-19 into Burkhas as quickly as possible. Where's the Taliban when we need them?

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Martyrdom: an essential component of the messiah complex.

We better get those girls from 9-19 into Burkhas as quickly as possible. Where's the Taliban when we need them?

 

From the new age guru's perspective, all dogma is relinquished, all is one, there is no need to preach, no need to continue the messianic mission of the Acharya, just let everyone be "themselves", why disturb? If they want to go to hell, just let them.

 

A true theist shows great compassion in the face of all adversity, including being classified under the one of the popularly misconstrued definitions of true messianism, and enduring beatings in 21 marketplaces or similar "forums" because of one's preaching.

 

I am looking at this all from the perspective of a conditioned disciple, applying the teachings to myself, and lamenting that there are so few more advanced than myself who are preaching effectively, from the heart, to these poor degraded fools who are so terribly lost.

 

And if one should stumble upon such spiritual compassion, they will stare all of the traps and pitfalls of the evangelist straight in the maw. And seek istagothi for support.

 

Of course one must be careful about choosing the company to reveal such confidential inquiries of the heart, for you never know if there are any atheists lurking around looking to take advantage of sincere vulnerability in order to loose some venom that has formed in the old belly after years of false renunciation.

 

I guess it just proves my point, shelter from predators, in whatever forum they are found, should be a top priority to acheive, regardless of what they will do or say to degrade, demean or debase one's character as they are confronted.

 

Hare Krsna