vow - hunter to Narada

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Martyrdom: an essential component of the messiah complex.

We better get those girls from 9-19 into Burkhas as quickly as possible. Where's the Taliban when we need them?

 

The complant of rejected vows is not being connected to vedic or karmi dress. It is behavior between the sexes. Young and old, male and female.

 

You brought this subject up that includes following the restrictions on illicit sex. Why would you now poke fun at a serious concern that is determental to strict adherance of no illicit sex?

 

SB 6.1.21

 

 

TRANSLATION

In the city known as Kanyakubja there was a brahmana named Ajamila who married a prostitute maidservant and lost all his brahminical qualities because of the association of that low-class woman.

 

PURPORT

The fault of illicit connection with women is that it makes one lose all brahminical qualities. In India there is still a class of servants, called sudras, whose maidservant wives are called sudranis. Sometimes people who are very lusty establish relationships with such maidservants and sweeping women, since in the higher statuses of society they cannot indulge in the habit of woman hunting, which is strictly prohibited by social convention. Ajamila, a qualified brahmana youth, lost all his brahminical qualities because of his association with a prostitute, but he was ultimately saved because he had begun the process of bhakti-yoga. Therefore in the previous verse, Sukadeva Gosvami spoke of the person who has only once surrendered himself at the lotus feet of the Lord (manah krishna-padaravindayoh) or has just begun the bhakti-yoga process. Bhakti-yoga begins with sravanam kirtanam vishnoh [sB 7.5.23], hearing and chanting of Lord Vishnu’s names, as in the maha-mantra—Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Chanting is the beginning of bhakti-yoga.

 

 

 

SB 6.1.22

 

TRANSLATION

This fallen brahmana, Ajamila, gave trouble to others by arresting them, by cheating them in gambling or by directly plundering them. This was the way he earned his livelihood and maintained his wife and children.

 

PURPORT

This verse indicates how degraded one becomes simply by indulging in illicit sex with a prostitute. Illicit sex is not possible with a chaste or aristocratic woman, but only with unchaste sudras. The more society allows prostitution and illicit sex, the more impetus it gives to cheaters, thieves, plunderers, drunkards and gamblers. Therefore we first advise all the disciples in our Krishna consciousness movement to avoid illicit sex, which is the beginning of all abominable life and which is followed by meat-eating, gambling and intoxication, one after another. Of course, restraint is very difficult, but it is quite possible if one fully surrenders to Krishna, since all these abominable habits gradually become distasteful for a Krishna conscious person. If illicit sex is allowed to increase in a society, however, the entire society will be condemned, for it will be full of rogues, thieves, cheaters and so forth.

 

 

SB 1.16.22

We know it from Srimad Bhagwatam that Ajamil an innocent son of a Brahmin was passing the road and he saw a Sudra pair sexually embraced. This attracted the boy, and later on the boy became a victim of all debaucheries in the later days of his life. From a pure Brahmin he fell down to the position of a wretched urchin and it was all due to the bad association. There was one victim like Ajamil in those days gone by but in this age of Kali the poor innocent body and students are daily victims of the cinema shows which attract men only for the matter of sex induldence. The so called administrators are all untrained in the affairs of a Kashatriya. The Kastriyas are meant for administration as the Brahmins are meant for knowledge and guidance. The word kshatriyabandhu means the so called administrators or persons promoted to the post of the administrator without prpper training by culture and tradition Now a days they are promoted to such exhalted posts by the votes of people who are themselves fallen in the rules and regulations of life. How they can select a proper man who are themselves fallen in the standard of life. Therefore, by the influence of the age of Kali everywhere politically, socially or religiously everything is topsyturvied and therefore for the sane man they are all regretable factors looking forward to the general welfare of the human society.

 

 

Hare krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[theist]

Kids are kids. Hormonal changes are natural at that age. Adults are supposed to be adults and not encourage or condemn the kids in situations like this. Parents should be parents and teach their kids that they need to be extra careful at temple functions etc. but there is no need to blow this up into another cause for crusade. Cut the drama.

 

Reminds me of hearing some matajis at MVT complaining about the "kulis" wearing short pants. Imagine that, short pants in 95 degree weather. These young people have often grown up with dysfunctional neglectful parents who were at least into a false cult of Krsna consciousness as much as they were sadhana bhakti. They are growing up in society which is even more hedonistic then the one I grew up in. Just consider that they were there for Gaura Purnima at all and how rare that is. Where were their peers and what were they doing?

 

It is not by repression that we advance. It is by experiencing a higher taste.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

Kids are kids. Hormonal changes are natural at that age. Adults are supposed to be adults and not encourage or condemn the kids in situations like this. Parents should be parents and teach their kids that they need to be extra careful at temple functions etc. but there is no need to blow this up into another cause for crusade. Cut the drama.

 

Reminds me of hearing some matajis at MVT complaining about the "kulis" wearing short pants. Imagine that, short pants in 95 degree weather. These young people have often grown up with dysfunctional neglectful parents who were at least into a false cult of Krsna consciousness as much as they were sadhana bhakti. They are growing up in society which is even more hedonistic then the one I grew up in. Just consider that they were there for Gaura Purnima at all and how rare that is. Where were their peers and what were they doing?

 

It is not by repression that we advance. It is by experiencing a higher taste.

 

Your rhetoric is pointless. Noone said anything about repression. And I rejected condemnation.

 

 

So what a pickle. It would be hypocritical for me to be condemning and angry with them, but I should certainly not tolerate that type of behavior in my community without voicing my opinion.

 

I clearly made that point, and was bringing this up in spirit of Istagosthi, identifying a problem and looking for solutions which are not born of hypocrisy and breeding repression.

 

I saw plenty of positive transcendental signs last night, and commented on them at the time, and afterwards today. However I was remembering a BAD thing I saw, in relation to the dilemna raised in CB's post. I am not a stork with head buried in sand (or worse), and I see both the positive and the negative. Gee, I seem to remember a certain acharya telling us we must know what is not favorable (prohibition) as well as what is favorable.

 

So is there anyone else not so high on his horse that all he can do is condemn my concern? I was a school teacher, and have many nieces and nephews, we all know kids will be kids and when the hormones kick in. Srila Prabhupada knew this too, and gave us "suggestions" to implement. But they need to be implemented as a group.

 

For as theist said...

 

 

Parents should be parents and teach their kids that they need to be extra careful at temple functions etc.

 

You say they Should. Should. And if the parents are not doing that, which they are not, do we care or just say it is their karma, they have free will, may as not preach to them?

 

To do nothing and let it take care of itself is easy if one has nobody under their protection who should be guided to the best association possible.

 

and as for this...

 

 

but there is no need to blow this up into another cause for crusade. Cut the drama.

 

Spoken like someone who has repressed their emotions so much that there is no longer any drama to perceive. It is all quite dramatic actually, and felt that way by sensitive people. Srila Prabhupada was ultra-extreme according to this view, he micromanaged every part of his hapless disciples dramatically ignorant lives at first.

 

The drama becomes transcendental when we deal with the runaway drama of explotiation and manipulation, but first we have to see and aknowledge the problem, and address it as a group of adults. That means a common understanding of rules for the children. And this is built only upon what we ourselves can embody and enforce by giving higher engagement.

 

There is such a common understanding at the local temple. It is just that it is far from what Srila Prabhupada requested. As a matter of fact, those instructions are not even mentioned for consideration, untouchable fantasy goals according to those who wish to remain grossly ignorant.

 

So in the spirit of istagosthi, does anyone readin here have experience dealing with this in any way where they have had success in seeing nice changes made by caring interaction with others? Those who do not engage in such meaningful community endeavors need not answer, especially with presumptuous ad hominem attacks like labeling one a crusader, or less than constructive condescending platitudes like "kids will be kids" or "cut the drama".

 

All glories to Vaisnava sanga.

[theist]

If you can't remake the sanga you are with then find another sanga where things are stricter and more to your liking.

 

We can't reform the outer world directly but if we reform ourselves then that will have some effect on others also. And who knows Krsna may empower one to have a dramatic effect on others. But the reformation of the self MUST be there before such an empowerment can be effective.

 

All I am saying is that desiring to see Srila Prabhupada's instructions fully implemented is a wonderful thing but it won't be brought about by our demanding it of others or pointing out the faults of others.

 

Like I wish to see you two bhakta's renounce the idea that Srila Prabhupada wanted to stop the vows regarding the regulative principles for his disciples universally and allow some of they to kill animals and eat meat, but there is no way I can force you to accept what I am saying. I can post quotes like in post one but that is about all.

 

You think people here are persecuting you by opposing some of your ideas but many of us also want to see Prabhupadqa's instructions remain intact if even a goal yet attained by most of us. Braj especially put a lot of energy into it trying to help you see the error you are making.

 

So if nothing else you should be a little more generous with those that disagree with your ideas.

[theist]

 

TRANSLATION Madhya 24.256

“The hunter then said, ‘My dear sir, whatever you say I shall do.’

“Närada immediately ordered him, ‘First of all, break your bow. Then I shall tell you what is to be done.’

PURPORT

This is the process of initiation. The disciple must vow that he will no longercommit sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. Then the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual emancipation.

 

 

 

 

So is the point of view of you two Bhaktas that the above quote is no longer valid or is it possible you have made a mis-calculation. Hopefully you remain open to the possibility of being wrong.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Kids are kids. Hormonal changes are natural at that age. Adults are supposed to be adults and not encourage or condemn the kids in situations like this. Parents should be parents and teach their kids that they need to be extra careful at temple functions etc. but there is no need to blow this up into another cause for crusade. Cut the drama.

 

Reminds me of hearing some matajis at MVT complaining about the "kulis" wearing short pants. Imagine that, short pants in 95 degree weather. These young people have often grown up with dysfunctional neglectful parents who were at least into a false cult of Krsna consciousness as much as they were sadhana bhakti. They are growing up in society which is even more hedonistic then the one I grew up in. Just consider that they were there for Gaura Purnima at all and how rare that is. Where were their peers and what were they doing?

 

It is not by repression that we advance. It is by experiencing a higher taste.

 

 

I just deleted the whole post I wrote. I'll make it simple so even you can understand.

 

Please give quotes from Srila Prabhupada that supports this hippie hogwash in you post. If you can then I will offer an apology calling it 'Hippie Hogwash' if you can't, then I am do one.

 

'Through out the West' is the motto. The healing will happen then.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[theist]

 

TRANSLATION Madhya 24.256

“The hunter then said, ‘My dear sir, whatever you say I shall do.’

“Närada immediately ordered him, ‘First of all, break your bow. Then I shall tell you what is to be done.’

PURPORT

This is the process of initiation. The disciple must vow that he will no longercommit sinful activity—namely illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling and intoxication. He promises to execute the order of the spiritual master. Then the spiritual master takes care of him and elevates him to spiritual emancipation.

 

.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

So is the point of view of you two Bhaktas that the above quote is no longer valid or is it possible you have made a mis-calculation. Hopefully you remain open to the possibility of being wrong.

 

Consider by definition that eating meat as Srila Prabhupada has said is under regulation and not illicit. He has given the regulation himself. He gave an example of a pure devotee. Just like sex life in marrage for children is still concidered as brahmancarya. Everywhere these things are in the Bhagavatam.

 

I see the quote, but you have not used what was accually said and shown my flaw of interpitation on the subject. I have posted repeatedly. And you reply with nothing that addresses DVD in ISKCON and how initiations would take place with new standards. I showed a hidden in plain site change that was not implimemted on purpose by the same leaders that finally stole the movement from Srila Prabhupada after samadhi. And you are a broken record of brainwashing. Show direct context to DVD like I have done. Point out in the coversations were I have missed the mark. Or from anything Prabhupada has said on the subject of initiations in His DVD movement.

 

Put up. That quote is out of context because there is no mention of DVD in it.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

So is the point of view of you two Bhaktas that the above quote is no longer valid or is it possible you have made a mis-calculation. Hopefully you remain open to the possibility of being wrong.

 

My god man are you serious? Srila Prabhupada's own words show that he made exceptions to this rule! Black and white and captured on tape! He also said we will not encourage, but the point of the exercise is to understand the Acharya's mood, and the totality of his Vani on any subject.

He later made the distinction, even going so far as to caution his disciples not to give just anyone brahmana initiation, especially "now that we are dividing up the society." And that for Sudras taking the 2nd means "recognized", and they follow the rules and regs of Sudra and will get perfection.

 

 

Like I wish to see you two bhakta's renounce the idea that Srila Prabhupada wanted to stop the vows regarding the regulative principles for his disciples universally and allow some of they to kill animals and eat meat, but there is no way I can force you to accept what I am saying. I can post quotes like in post one but that is about all.

 

Such exaggeration. If you can show anywhere where I suggested this I will stand corrected, but I already know you can't because I know myself and I also have been watching you speculatively misconstrue just about everything written by me on the subject, saying I live in a fantasy world. Who has lived at their computer for 10700 posts on just this forum, forget about all the others you participate in?

 

You could force me easily to accept what you are saying, by showing where Srila Prabhupada defeats himself. I would accept that. But I have way to strong a grasp on chronology, prioritization of various forms of communication as evidence, and the multidimensions of preaching to neophytes to take an early general statement as law and reject later nuanced and pointed adjustments.

 

Srila Prabhupada assumed that when he gave an order to be implemented by his leaders that they would follow the rule and live it in order to inspire others to follow, unless it was strictly a heirarchical thing. (Yes heirarchy, still with us in the material world Theist? need a pinch?) In that case it was, you tell those under your supervision to do this, and they are to agree, if not, they don't like my program and they must go elsewhere for instruction."

 

I have had plenty of inner purification, I know how to approach people because I care about them. Spontaneously is best sometimes. But I was looking to see if anyone around here had any experience with similar situations, etc.

 

Not to get some wishy washy new age lecture on changing myself, and not forcing others.

 

Not to mention that some people need to be forced to do things, as per Acharya, but that is not for the limp wristed to discuss, and was beyond the range of this topic where a plea for sanity and hopes for education are the main theme.

 

Again, I am NOT looking for input from anyone who has no association outside of cyberspace. I am hoping to kick it around with those who interact with their local community and see the horrors of unregulated, uneducated children emerging due to lack of parental guidance, and feel somewhat helpless to persuade others to sane behavior after rejecting the guidance of an Acharya like Srila Prabhupada.

[bhaktatraveler]

I leave it. Better to practice killing for real than playing make believe games with paint ball guns. I'll take the blood of my killed deer over colored water any day. Srila Prabhupada said ksatriyas have to practice killing, you say different.

 

You sound like a bhogus devotee at odds every step of the way with these conversations and you reject the words of Guru. Are you?

 

Find in this quote where sudra is said to have to follow 4 regs. It is not said in any of the DVD conversations like that. Not just this one, none of them. And that is the point, IT IS CHANGED. You are at odds with a Guru you claim your following.

 

 

 

2/14/77 conv.

Satsvarupa: Yes. “Send us some of your men.”

 

Prabhupada: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That’s all. This is only interest.

 

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

 

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

 

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

 

 

Fall down means breaking 4 reg, yes?

 

 

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

 

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

 

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

 

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

 

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

 

Sudra does accordingly, pricnciples of sudra, work of sudra. He get perfection. No mention of 4 regs again. Has Prabhupada forgotten? No!

 

 

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

 

 

No 4 regs again conspicuious by absents. Purposely not mentioned. Only rules and regulations of sudra.

 

 

Satsvarupa: Today you’ve been saying that the Vaishnava is the highest, above the brahmana. But then we’ve also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaishnava.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Vaishnava everyone, even if he’s not brahmana. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krishna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that “I am servant of Krishna.” Here the bodily conception is going on, “I am American,” “I am Indian,” “I am this,” “I am that.”

 

Satsvarupa: If in our society we say, “Srila Prabhupada wants some to be sudra...”

 

Prabhupada: No, no, no. I don’t want. I want everyone to become Vaishnava. But because he’s a sudra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brahmana, or Vaishnava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a sudra, he’s a Vaishnava.

 

 

Fall down means what? 4 regs fault, yes? That is the change.

 

 

Hari-sauri: So we’d have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.

 

Prabhupada: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they’re falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Krishna says. Bring that Bhagavad-gita. Sve sve karmany abhiratah?

 

 

What is the fall down? 4 regs again. now change "There is no need" of force

 

 

Hari-sauri:

sve sve karmany abhiratah

samsiddhim labhate narah

sva-karma-niratah siddhim

yatha vindati tac chrinu

“By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done.”

 

Prabhupada: Yes. He is sudra, clerk. He can... As a sudra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brahmana and sannyasi and fall down? This has to be checked.

 

 

 

How is the checking done? Change of regs.

 

 

Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.

 

Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He’s also not following them. (laughs)

 

 

 

No 4 regs as previously understood. though regulations are still in place.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[theist]

 

I leave it.

Your business.Your choice. Just drop the true representative of Srila Prabhupada act. You have one follower. Be satisifed with that.

[brajeshwara das]

Where is initiation mentioned regarding any changes in the regulative principals? Within ISKCON you can have uninitiated bhakta students that haven't made a vow to follow anything, they are only studying (presumably in the varnashrama colleges). It seems Srila Swami Maharaj is saying the adjustment is to be made with the men recommending disciples for initiation:

 

 

Hari-sauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.

 

Prabhupada: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He’s also not following them. (laughs)

 

Please show me where he is saying there should be a change in the regulative principals of initiated disciples. He does say different regs for sudras and ksatriyas, but these were general statements on varnashrama colleges and not on discipleship. I feel that if he were sayingto change the regs for disciples taking initiation it would have been very explicit.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Your business.Your choice. Just drop the true representative of Srila Prabhupada act. You have one follower. Be satisifed with that.

 

 

Not my follower, Devarsi is a Prabhupada man long before I met him. He already knew about these conversations and there impact on ISKCON. We meet on line. He was fishing and I was fishing, we caught each other using DVD hooks, so to speak. Each of us came to the same conclutions separately. yrs before we met. These same conclusions have been exchanged with others that were much closer than I to Srila Prabhupada. Its is all as I've said and you were all cheated after 74.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

I wasn't cheated.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Where is initiation mentioned regarding any changes in the regulative principals? Within ISKCON you can have uninitiated bhakta students that haven't made a vow to follow anything, they are only studying (presumably in the varnashrama colleges). It seems Srila Swami Maharaj is saying the adjustment is to be made with the men recommending disciples for initiation:

 

 

 

Please show me where he is saying there should be a change in the regulative principals of initiated disciples. He does say different regs for sudras and ksatriyas, but these were general statements on varnashrama colleges and not on discipleship. I feel that if he were sayingto change the regs for disciples taking initiation it would have been very explicit.

 

 

 

Spend some time reading these conversations. The whole conversations, 3/12-14/74, 4/20/74, 3/15/77. I've posted prof of ISKCON partisipation. I posted change of principles for partisipants in DVD. I post Prabhupada said in our centers now, among our men. It is just to simply plane for you?

 

Members of ISKCON are disciples of Srila Prabhupada. When Prabhupada says everything sudras gets, do you think He forgot to say if the sudra follows 4 reg??? If it is as important as you say why did Prabhupada not say 4 regs anywhere in these conversations??? Prabhupada says if he follows the rules of sudra, not 4 regs. You think Prabhupada really forgot??? Have you become mad???

 

Hare Krsna

 

CB-r

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I wasn't cheated.

 

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to a Theist. And yes you were. But for you it is OK. Your not ISKCON affiliated. But you came because Srila Prabhupada opened up the world to the Hare Krsna sankirtan movement. It is because of Prabhupada you know anything of Govinda Maharaja. Until Prabhupada started this ISKCON the Gaudiya Maths, SCS were asleep at the wheel of world wide preaching. And they will be asleep for the next shift into the higher gear of DVD introduction.

 

CB-r

[theist]

I wasn't cheated either. I have no affiliation with iskcon or any other matha. Wish them the best but not affiliated.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

I wasn't cheated either. I have no affiliation with iskcon or any other matha. Wish them the best but not affiliated.

 

Actually, anyone who can contradict the blatant and redundant orders that a great Acharya like Srila Prabhupada made for the disciples in his institution.

 

Anyone who would do so in public, amidst neophytes of that institution.

 

Anyone who would post so many opinions largely without scriptural backing but on occasion USE Srila Prabhupada's words to make points contradictory to Srila Prabhupada's own preaching mission.

 

That person has been cheated. By himself, and by "whoever" gave them instruction to act like this.

 

And if I am 100% sure of anything, this is one of those times.

 

And as far as the cherry picking out of context and word juggling going on with the term "Varnasrama College", it is sophomoric and already defeated by mountains of priorly stated evidence, in addition to at least 2 summaries of that evidence by the Bhaktatraveler, Caturbahu dasa, and myself, and it will be plenty suitable for any who really care about the HEALTHY continuation of HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami's mission.

 

And by the way, I am proud to have received some very relevant instruction in spiritual life from Caturbahu das, Srila Prabhupada should be so fortunate that he would have 100's of those so dedicated to his vani and his alone.

 

Even Theist makes a good point now and then, but the problem is only a Swan can scoop it up amidst the rest of his belligerent sophistry. But hey noones PERFECT, so Jaya NIMAI. Jaya NITAE. Jaya Prabhupada.

 

ys

 

Bhakta Mark

[bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Braj

 

Here is again the augmented instruction....3/12/74

 

Prabhupada: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he’ll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati duhkha-ha. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Krishna. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varnasrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

 

Hridayananda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupada: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Krishna. Krishna was acting as a kshatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaisya. But Krishna is neither kshatriya nor, nor brahmana. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaisya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kshatriya. He was marrying as a kshatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kshatriya, sometimes as vaisya, but He’s neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna...

 

Nitai: Srila Prabhupada?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Nitai: What should the kshatriyas be taught?

 

Prabhupada: Kshatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kshatriya’s business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, “Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna...” No. They must come forward. “Yes, we are prepared to fight.” That is kshatriya.

 

Tamala-Krishna: Prabhupada?

 

Prabhupada: Eh.

 

Tamala-Krishna: In our centers we are awarding brahmana initiation, second initiation...

 

Prabhupada: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaishnava. A Vaishnava and Vishnu... Just like Krishna is Vishnu, He’s not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly, Vaishnava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brahmana, one should be acting like kshatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaishnava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything.” If need be, he has to act as kshatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter.

Hridayananda: Oh.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

 

It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaishnava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything.” If need be, he has to act as kshatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter.

 

 

 

It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing.

 

Just that the sannyasi who preaches is better at preaching. And there is a reason for this.

 

 

"Their position as Vaishnava is the same."

 

Though true, this is a broad and generous statement, as it is quite obvious the people he was speaking to were BEGINNERS. Neophyte Vaisnavas.

 

 

"But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that."

 

So for management, one goes to preach. In otherwords, who goes to preach is to be managed . So the manager ideally knows who is capable of preaching. And here we are not speaking only of Harinama sankirtana, or else the cleanser and engineer would have been included. He is referring to the somewhat more advanced Vaisnava who has the ability to do focused and directed preaching to target audiences. Srila Prabhupada initiated and managed many such preaching projects.

 

 

"That should be there."

Imperative Directive.

 

 

"It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything."

 

Most "sanyassins" seem only to abide this when they want to manage and have people wait on them. Seen it with my own eyes.

 

 

"If need be, he has to act as kshatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter."

 

Key words, IF NEED BE.

 

To a thoughtful person, such a need would be considered either some type of emergency, or a response to a temporary displacement of personell, and therefore the decision by a Manager to manage to fit someone into another varna's role is out of TEMPORARY (IF) - NECESSITY (NEED), and NOT a permanent solution.

 

Here the manager's ability is tested to right the situation as soon as possible for optimal functioning.

 

While people still think in terms of managing organizations, Sri Krsna offers an institution where they may piously engage these skills to simultaneously aid and abet the Sankirtana movement, while purifying those tendencies from their consciousness.

 

This is the dual purpose of DVD. It simply aids the process of advancing in Bhakti yoga, and was not considered an optional consideration for us by our Acharya.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

...it simply aids the process of advancing in Bhakti yoga, and was not considered an optional consideration for us by our Acharya.

 

Hare Krsna

Okay so DVD is an important instruction for Srila Prabhupada's followers to implement. But to do anything with the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu one must be empowered. Therefore it will take an empowered devotee (devotees) to implement DVD on the societal level. The societal level is where the implementation must take place, for DVD is on that level. If individuals try to personally implement it in their lives I'm sure that might be a positive step but I don't see a ground swell of DVD coming from that. It will have to come from the top down. Okay so then, why not pray for such a person to come along and institute DVD, kind of like how Advaita Acharya prayed for the advent of Mahaprabhu? Of course we must wonder if a ksatriya would do such a thing? He would act more in a political way, but in a political way as an empowered ksatriya, which means a top to down scenerio. Sudra politics of making a campaign amongst the mass of devotees only goes so far, especially since it will become like beating ones head against the wall. Perhaps it will help the cause if awareness of Prabhupada's instructions on DVD becomes better known by many. The irony is that sudra politics defeats the very spirit of DVD and transforms it into asura varasrama dharma. Everything in daivic or spiritual life is coming down in a descending process.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Hare Krsna Braj

 

Here is again the augmented instruction....3/12/74

 

Prabhupada: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is... This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And... And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he’ll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati duhkha-ha. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Krishna. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varnasrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely.

 

Hridayananda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation?

Prabhupada: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are... Krishna. Krishna was acting as a kshatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaisya. But Krishna is neither kshatriya nor, nor brahmana. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaisya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a kshatriya. He was marrying as a kshatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as kshatriya, sometimes as vaisya, but He’s neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna...

 

Nitai: Srila Prabhupada?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Nitai: What should the kshatriyas be taught?

 

Prabhupada: Kshatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is kshatriya’s business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, “Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna...” No. They must come forward. “Yes, we are prepared to fight.” That is kshatriya.

 

Tamala-Krishna: Prabhupada?

 

Prabhupada: Eh.

 

Tamala-Krishna: In our centers we are awarding brahmana initiation, second initiation...

 

Prabhupada: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even... You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaishnava. A Vaishnava and Vishnu... Just like Krishna is Vishnu, He’s not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly, Vaishnava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brahmana, one should be acting like kshatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The... Their position as Vaishnava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything.” If need be, he has to act as kshatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter.

Hridayananda: Oh.

 

Yes, very good. But no where is it mentioned different vows for different devotees. 'Acting' is the word Srila Swami Maharaj uses, not that you 'are' a ksatriya. This is a matter of interpretation and I believe you are mistaken, you believe I am. There is no way to resolve this since there isn't clear evidence one way or the other. You guys can say it is clear, but I disagree.

We should agree to disagree on this point, because in all other things I support you. It is very apparent Srila Swami Maharaj wanted the varnashrama college to propagate this within his mission. My question now is: is ISKCON still his mission, or is it like a stolen car, still registered to the legitimate owner but no longer in his possession? I don't pretend to know the answer.

 

Here's what I sincerely recommend:

 

Start your own mission. In the disciplic succession of Srila Prabhupada. Initiate devotees based on your understanding of his instructions. Find a devotee 'actor' brahman who agrees with you that you feel is qualified to be Acharya. Be your own acharya if need be. A small house in the country maybe, bring your families. Assign your varnas. Do your preaching. Practice what you preach. If Srila Swami Maharaj is pleased you will flourish, and you can escape whatever exists within ISKCON that are contrary to your goals. Srila Sridhar Maharaj started with a thatched hut on the Ganga, Srila Swami Maharaj came here nearly penniless. Trust in Krishna, there is no need to do this from within ISKCON. ISKCON affiliation may even be seen as a disqualification in your preaching ground. Have full faith.

 

It puzzles me that not so many Swami Maharaj disciples have started their own missions. Sure, they may lack the qualifications of their Guru, they should never feel otherwise, but if with sincerity and humility of the position they are taking on service to their guru, they will get backing from the Legitimate Authority. And in time they will become more qualified, as long as they remember they are servants, not masters.

 

I have to say this also, I do think that the concept of different vows for different varnas would be helpful, I just don't know if it really is bona fide. This is really important to know before you continue. I know you guys have made up your minds on this, but I'm not convinced. Since you have to convince others, I'm guessing this would be a good thing to focus on, make some clear presentation that supports you hypothesis.

[Shakti-Fan]

I don't understand why members of the current Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math still refer to Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as "Swami Maharaja" It is a fact that the "Swami" in his sannyasa name is a name not just a title but a name, so there is nothing improper in his godbrothers referring to him in this way. But the current disciples of Srila Govinda Maharaja are not Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers or contempory asscociates from India. It has been explained to me that Srila Govinda Maharaja refers to Srila Saraswati Thakur as "Bhagavan Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur" into order to emphasize his acceptance of the "Prabhupada" name for "Swami Maharaja". Therefore why not at least sometimes refer to "Swami Maharaja" as "Srila Prabhupada"?

[brajeshwara das]

 

I don't understand why members of the current Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math still refer to Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as "Swami Maharaja" It is a fact that the "Swami" in his sannyasa name is a name not just a title but a name, so there is nothing improper in his godbrothers referring to him in this way. But the current disciples of Srila Govinda Maharaja are not Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers or contempory asscociates from India. It has been explained to me that Srila Govinda Maharaja refers to Srila Saraswati Thakur as "Bhagavan Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur" into order to emphasize his acceptance of the "Prabhupada" name for "Swami Maharaja". Therefore why not at least sometimes refer to "Swami Maharaja" as "Srila Prabhupada"?

 

I dunno, habit I guess. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Prabhupada!

[brajeshwara das]

 

I don't understand why members of the current Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math still refer to Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as "Swami Maharaja" It is a fact that the "Swami" in his sannyasa name is a name not just a title but a name, so there is nothing improper in his godbrothers referring to him in this way. But the current disciples of Srila Govinda Maharaja are not Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers or contempory asscociates from India. It has been explained to me that Srila Govinda Maharaja refers to Srila Saraswati Thakur as "Bhagavan Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur" into order to emphasize his acceptance of the "Prabhupada" name for "Swami Maharaja". Therefore why not at least sometimes refer to "Swami Maharaja" as "Srila Prabhupada"?

 

Sorry, just thinking about this more: Srila Govinda Maharaj in his darshans does refer to Srila Saraswati Prabhupada as 'Srila Prabhupada' and Srila Swami Maharaj as 'Srila Swami Maharaj' also is the case for Srila Sridhar Maharaj. In our ashrams also this is the case for most disciples not coming from ISKCON. We never knew Srila Swami Maharaj as 'Prabhupada'. To me this is an intimate name coming from his disciples, so I don't really feel it is mine to say. Srila Swami Maharaj is his 'official' title really, and 'Prabhupada' is the affectionate disiple name. Anyway, hopefully I show him respect and no offense is taken by anyone. This actually confused me a bit trying to know who anyone was talking about at any given time and I made sure I made the distinction, and try and refer to them both by thier official names. Srila Sridhar Maharaj is affectionately know as 'Guru Maharaj' in SCSMath, but other gurus are also know thus by their disciples, so publicly I don't refer to him in that way. It is like that.