Preliminary Help for Meat eaters

[bhaktatraveler]

 

This definitely isn't referring to those taking initiation but attending a meeting. To think otherwise really is misunderstanding the point.

this is not evidence to support disciples eating meat.

 

 

All of these DVD conversations refer to ISKCON in particular and the greater world in general.

The death of your creapers gentlemen is your adversion, rejection with no DVD post to back up you contentions that this is not for ISKCON. IT IS GET OVEN IT.........

 

Coversation on February 14 1977.

 

Satsvarüpa: Religion professors.

 

Prabhupäda: Whatever it may be, higher studies...

 

Satsvarüpa: Yes. “Send us some of your men.”

 

Prabhupäda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That’s all. This is only interest.

 

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

 

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

 

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

 

(CB-r) Has to mean from 4 reg's or?

 

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

 

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

 

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

 

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

 

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is for ISKCON and all Srila Prabhupada's disciples. Accept or show the conversation context wrong. This is great copy, there is no mistake.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Not necessarily. sudra and devotee acting as sudra may be different. there are taken from different conversations so maybe people here are misunderstanding.

better to be careful i agree.

 

No different, Prabhupada says to do in ISKCON, though acting as sudra he is still devotee. Regs are not missing. Regs are different for different varnas.

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

I was referring to the bhaktisiddhanta quote. Sorry for confusing you.

[Guest guest]

So no second initiation. It doesn't say no 4 regulative principals for 1st initiation.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I was referring to the bhaktisiddhanta quote. Sorry for confusing you.

 

Yes I was looking at that too! And I see Srila Prabhupada's new DVD mood for ISKCON as coming from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada. This is the thing, nothing is being invented outside of our Guru parampara, just continuing to unfold.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

So no second initiation. It doesn't say no 4 regulative principals for 1st initiation.

 

Yes, Yes. Every thing he gets........initiations still go on.

 

 

4/20/74 Hyderabad

 

Nitai: One question came up the other day when I was talking with this clergyman.

 

Prabhupada: Clergyman?

 

Nitai: Yes, that man I was talking to was a clergyman.

 

Prabhupada: Where he was?

 

Nitai: He was on the airplane when we were coming here to Hyderabad. And he was asking what our program was. And I was telling him that first of all, in order to relieve the confusion of society, we wanted to establish the Vedic culture with this varnasrama system. And he asked me what would be the program that we would have for a man who works in the factory...

 

Prabhupada: He is a sudra.

 

Nitai: Would we retrain him as a farmer?

 

Prabhupada: No, if he is prepared. If not, let him remain. But we can utilize that sudra also.

 

Nitai: He can remain in the factory.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But he cannot do the work of a brahmana. He cannot be trained as a preacher. But he can help. Just like my legs. The legs cannot do the work of brain, but it can help me. I am walking. So leg is as important as the brain. Similarly, sudra is as important as the brahmana, provided he helps the movement, Krishna conscious. That is wanted, not that artificially a sudra should be working as a brahmana, no. But everyone should be engaged in Krishna consciousness. That is required.

 

Nitai: So in that case he is a sudra, and he is also doing the work of a...

 

Prabhupada: Then he is not a sudra. One who is engaged in Krishna’s service, he is neither brahmana nor sudra. He is devotee. He is brahma-bhuta. Brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. Apparently he looks like sudra. Just like we have got so many men from different quarters, but we do not belong to that quarter any more. Vaishnave jati-buddhih. Therefore anyone who takes, “Oh, here is an American Vaishnava, here is an Indian Vaishnava,” that is naraki. He is Vaishnava. That understanding required.

 

Mahamsa: Just like that devotee who was making garlands for Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Mahamsa: He is a devotee. He is not a sudra making garlands.

 

Prabhupada: No. He is not a ordinary gardener.

 

Pancadravida: Or that devotee who was making leaf bowls for worshiping the Ganges.

 

Prabhupada: Any engagement, any engagement for Krishna, he is Vaishnava. If he is under the guidance of his spiritual master and doing the business according to the direction, he is Vaishnava. He is above all these.

 

Pancadravida: A sudra, if he is working, he cannot take brahmana initiation, but he can take hari-nama, is that it?

 

Prabhupada: Just like sometimes our men, my devotee, they wash the cupboard. Does it mean he is a methar(?)? No. He can go to the Deity room also. He is not a methar(?) or sweeper. But sometimes we do that. So devotee is above all these consideration. But because there is management, they should appear as brahmana, as sudra, as kshatriya, like that.

 

sa gunan samatityaitan

brahma-bhuyaya kalpate

mam ca vyabhicarini

bhakti-yogena yah sevate

[bg. 14.26]

 

A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

 

Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?

 

Prabhupada: Everything he will get.

 

Mahamsa: He gets.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized: “Now he has become fully competent Vaishnava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant.

 

Pancadravida: What if the person working as sudra says, “I can do so much. I can...,”

 

Prabhupada: First of all, try to understand. A devotee is neither brahmana nor sudra. He may act like a sudra, but he is not sudra. He may act like a brahmana; he is not brahmana. He is Vaishnava. Just like gopis. The gopis, they are village cowherds women. They are, according to social construction, they are not very high class. They did not belong to the brahmana class. But their worship, method of worship, has been taken the highest. Ramya kacid upasana vrajavadhu-vargena. They were village girls, and practically their character was also not good. Because at dead of night they are going to Krishna. But why they have been taken as the most topmost devotee of Krishna? Because the love was so high class. It is the test, how much one has learned to love Krishna. That is wanted. Apparently he may appear as a brahmana, a sudra or vaisya. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. The only business is to see: sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adho... [sB 1.2.6]. Aiye. Hare Krishna. Jaya. That is wanted.

[Beggar]

The funny thing about these discussions is until now I've never heard of a devotee eating meat and wishing to maintain an identity of a devotee or follower of Srila B.V. Prabhupada. On the other hand probably around 95 % of Western householders have sex for more than procreation. It's something that most rationalize but it brings up a myriad of deep issues.

[brajeshwara das]

 

The funny thing about these discussions is until now I've never heard of a devotee eating meat and wishing to maintain an identity of a devotee or follower of Srila B.V. Prabhupada. On the other hand probably around 95 % of Western householders have sex for more than procreation. It's something that most rationalize but it brings up a myriad of deep issues.

But the householders that aren't following know they aren't following, that it is illicit (at least they should know). And Caturbahu Prabhu isn't acdvocating doing anything illicit, he is saying it would be within the regs, just different for different varnas. So it is from his perspective anyway.

[Beggar]

 

But the householders that aren't following know they aren't following, that it is illicit (at least they should know). And Caturbahu Prabhu isn't acdvocating doing anything illicit, he is saying it would be within the regs, just different for different varnas. So it is from his perspective anyway.

Right, but how relevant is the ksatriya/sudra deer eating issue to 99.999% of all current devotees? Then how relevant is the issue of attachment to sexual pleasure?

[mahak]

 

The funny thing about these discussions is until now I've never heard of a devotee eating meat and wishing to maintain an identity of a devotee or follower of Srila B.V. Prabhupada. On the other hand probably around 95 % of Western householders have sex for more than procreation. It's something that most rationalize but it brings up a myriad of deep issues.

 

Revisionism works this way. Of course you never heard it, because he never said it to you. Show me in his books where he says it is okay to eat meat. These nonsense folks come back with this "offer it to Kali" garbage, but they do not include that such worship of the demiogods is condemned by Krsna in BGAII.

 

Prabhupada is never good enough for the likes of such revisionists. They have to have their ksatriya club, a domination trip just like Black keiths hillybilly club, or JTs peaqcekrsnas where with a little LSD, kirtana is so much better.

 

So they get to go hunting, like they have special permission, which they dont. Because there is a story of the hunter, Mgrari, who was the very best at his art. Yet, by influence of Sri Narada Muni, who gave him initial instruction to improve his behavior (Dont trap your prey, kill it instantly), Mgrari was softened that he even became so gentile that insects were protected by him.

 

Nonsense revisionism, has no place in vaisnava teaching, which very strongly proposes that from Vyasadeva to the present acarya(s), there is no changes, nothing revised, etc.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

But the householders that aren't following know they aren't following, that it is illicit (at least they should know). And Caturbahu Prabhu isn't acdvocating doing anything illicit, he is saying it would be within the regs, just different for different varnas. So it is from his perspective anyway.

 

Thank you Braj, but really I haven't said anything of my own here. I hope to repeat as good as I can from Srila Prabhupada and not embelish nor neglect information as to DVD cosmology.

And yes, you have explain it rightly. Still 4 regs are there, but only once in a month for meat, intox, sex.

So much trouble for once a month meat and then having to take the animals body next to fulfil the promise of reciprecation. Be that as it may, it is still within 4 regulative priciples of the Krsna comsciousness movement.

Even in marriage it is so much botheration for a little taste of sex. Best to give it up. But we cann't, so there is consideration of marriage. With duties and great responsibility.

 

CB-r

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

Thank you Braj, but really I haven't said anything of my own here. I hope to repeat as good as I can from Srila Prabhupada and not embelish nor neglect information as to DVD cosmology.

And yes, you have explain it rightly. Still 4 regs are there, but only once in a month for meat, intox, sex.

So much trouble for once a month meat and then having to take the animals body next to fulfil the promise of reciprecation. Be that as it may, it is still within 4 regulative priciples of the Krsna comsciousness movement.

Even in marriage it is so much botheration for a little taste of sex. Best to give it up. But we cann't, so there is consideration of marriage. With duties and great responsibility.

 

CB-r

 

CB-r

Ah, but in marriage sex is to make devotees, not to condone sense enjoyment, it may be misused by some like myself as a release valve but it is illicit if we use it in that way. It is meant to be service, grhasta life is some high service as well. It isn't a license for mundane activities. And I can see no service in meat eating. I still disagree with you, I just saw your position misrepresented.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Right, but how relevant is the ksatriya/sudra deer eating issue to 99.999% of all current devotees? Then how relevant is the issue of attachment to sexual pleasure?

Sure, I don't know how many devotees really want to go shoot a deer. Nearly all want to go have sex though.

 

Personally I was a vegetarian for 10 years before I met the devotees, so meat eating was not an attachment of mine. I guess for some killing and eating meat are just as hard to give up as sex.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Revisionism works this way. Of course you never heard it, because he never said it to you. Show me in his books where he says it is okay to eat meat. These nonsense folks come back with this "offer it to Kali" garbage, but they do not include that such worship of the demiogods is condemned by Krsna in BGAII.

 

Prabhupada is never good enough for the likes of such revisionists. They have to have their ksatriya club, a domination trip just like Black keiths hillybilly club, or JTs peaqcekrsnas where with a little LSD, kirtana is so much better.

 

So they get to go hunting, like they have special permission, which they dont. Because there is a story of the hunter, Mgrari, who was the very best at his art. Yet, by influence of Sri Narada Muni, who gave him initial instruction to improve his behavior (Dont trap your prey, kill it instantly), Mgrari was softened that he even became so gentile that insects were protected by him.

 

Nonsense revisionism, has no place in vaisnava teaching, which very strongly proposes that from Vyasadeva to the present acarya(s), there is no changes, nothing revised, etc.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa.

 

Your arrogant refusal to accept Srila Prabhupada is the real crime going on here. Your trash talk above has no bases in reality either. It is you that can find nothing in these DVD conversations to refute the conclusions presented and supported with a tremendous amount of vani.........this is one from the books SB 8.2.30

 

TRANSLATION

Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

PURPORT

In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with maya we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Krishna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krishna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.

 

SB. 5.1.24 purport

Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyasi, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Krishna conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varnasrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varnasrama. In daiva-varnasrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gita it is said that the determining considerations are guna and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varnasrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Krishna consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society.

 

 

Then like a true desenter to Prabhupada's vani you will say it is out of context or it doesn't say anything about this or that. It is just your adversion welling up in your heart, making it hard. DVD explanations are all through the books and I have not misreresented Srila Prabhupada, you are!

The applied definitions to all that is here in this purport, is in the DVD conversations. 3/12-14/74 and 2/15/77 especially.

Yes, no one hears, I've been saying for decades and you will not listen, then say 'I am Prabhupada's disciple' big puffed up chest. NOT. You would not get away with this on a form that had only Prabhupada men. You would be black balled as a heritic.

 

Give counter conclusion from the evidence in these DVD conversations or surrender or be black.

 

CB-r

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Ah, but in marriage sex is to make devotees, not to condone sense enjoyment, it may be misused by some like myself as a release valve but it is illicit if we use it in that way. It is meant to be service, grhasta life is some high service as well. It isn't a license for mundane activities. And I can see no service in meat eating. I still disagree with you, I just saw your position misrepresented.

 

I agree with what you say about sex, good post on that. But meat is never said for sudra to have a redeaming servise. For Ksatriya once a month hunt is to learn to kill.

 

Anyone can disagree, we still have free will.

 

CB-r

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Sure, I don't know how many devotees really want to go shoot a deer. Nearly all want to go have sex though.

 

Personally I was a vegetarian for 10 years before I met the devotees, so meat eating was not an attachment of mine. I guess for some killing and eating meat are just as hard to give up as sex.

 

Your missing the point of ksatriya killing, it is part of what he does. Have you not read any of the Srimad Bhagavatam or Mahabharata? Read the story of Krsna and Arjuna killing any and all of the animals that fled the burning forest in Krsna book. No, the details are in Mahabharata. But it is the same story. Ksatriyas hunt once a month. Eating meat of not, is not the reason for hunting. It is the killing.

 

For sudra yes it is only about eating meat. You may not have a problem, but you should be kind to those that do and stay within regs only. It is to be accepted in DVD.

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

Your missing the point of ksatriya killing, it is part of what he does. Have you not read any of the Srimad Bhagavatam or Mahabharata? Read the story of Krsna and Arjuna killing any and all of the animals that fled the burning forest in Krsna book. No, the details are in Mahabharata. But it is the same story. Ksatriyas hunt once a month. Eating meat of not, is not the reason for hunting. It is the killing.

 

For sudra yes it is only about eating meat. You may not have a problem, but you should be kind to those that do and stay within regs only. It is to be accepted in DVD.

 

CB-r

 

You're missing the point entirely, you aren't really a ksatriya.

[Guest guest]

 

Show me in his books where he says it is okay to eat meat

 

Does this mean that all of the direct quotes from his collected conversations which have been copied verbatim all over this thread have no value, and only what he wrote in his "Books" is his Vani?

 

That is just plain silly.

 

Chlorella and Yogurt are really good at pulling heavy metals from the Brain.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

You're missing the point entirely, you aren't really a ksatriya.

 

Yes, we are not any of these varnas, but for management we must do like that. Do you read anything I post from Srila Prabhupada. Did you read 8.2.30 purport? No? Then how can you talk? I'm not saying different, it's you that's inferring differently......

 

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

Yes, we are not any of these varnas, but for management we must do like that. Do you read anything I post from Srila Prabhupada. Did you read 8.2.30 purport? No? Then how can you talk? I'm not saying different, it's you that's inferring differently......

 

 

CB-r

 

We must do like that for the management of the temple. How is killing and eating meat involved in the management of the temple?

 

Killing a snake in the garden, fine. Killing gophers eating the bhoga, fine. Wild boars fine, they are a danger to the devotees if on temple property. A thief, fine. Needing to know how to kill if necessary, fine. Learning to kill once is sufficient, that isn't needed on a continuous basis. But going out one day a month with your gun club buddys with a 30 30 to kill a deer I don't see as in any way being related to devotional life or service. For devotional life eating meat is not necessary at all. Because Srila Swami Maharaj is describing what a sudra does in one place doesn't mean he is describing the behavior of a devotee in another.

 

You take Srila Swami Maharaja's words and run with them, you mingle messages and make them seem to mean something that I'm convinced doesn't really exist. You are taking a dangerous road for no good reason. You can preach the DVD thing fine, I'm with you there Prabhu no problem, go ahead and break ISKCON down into varnas and take on service as necessary. But you are saying abandon the regulative principals for some initiated disciples and I don't buy it.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

We must do like that for the management of the temple. How is killing and eating meat involved in the management of the temple?

 

Killing a snake in the garden, fine. Killing gophers eating the bhoga, fine. Wild boars fine, they are a danger to the devotees if on temple property. A thief, fine. Needing to know how to kill if necessary, fine. Learning to kill once is sufficient, that isn't needed on a continuous basis. But going out one day a month with your gun club buddys with a 30 30 to kill a deer I don't see as in any way being related to devotional life or service. For devotional life eating meat is not necessary at all. Because Srila Swami Maharaj is describing what a sudra does in one place doesn't mean he is describing the behavior of a devotee in another.

 

You take Srila Swami Maharaja's words and run with them, you mingle messages and make them seem to mean something that I'm convinced doesn't really exist. You are taking a dangerous road for no good reason. You can preach the DVD thing fine, I'm with you there Prabhu no problem, go ahead and break ISKCON down into varnas and take on service as necessary. But you are saying abandon the regulative principals for some initiated disciples and I don't buy it.

 

If you do not read or post from offered evidence what can I do for you? Just motoring along with your head out the window. Read what I have posted for you from Srila Prabhupada at least 20-30 times in all these threads. Then say a thing.

 

CB-r

[bhaktatraveler]

 

It is the truth, spoken by Srila Swami Maharaj himself, that devotees aren't in the varnas. I am 100% correct here. No presumptuous statement, unless he isn't a devotee.

 

Yes, devotee is not to be concidered in varna the same as non devotee. There is a diference. But not the service/activity of the varna for either. Have you read? I posted a conversation snip-it with this exact item in it.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[brajeshwara das]

 

If you do not read or post from offered evidence what can I do for you? Just motoring along with your head out the window. Read what I have posted for you from Srila Prabhupada at least 20-30 times in all these threads. Then say a thing.

 

CB-r

 

I disagree with your interpretation. I agree that a varna has some rights, in that varna according to vedic injunctions they are not bound to the same regulations, but as an initiated devotee, I don't agree the evidence is clear that different regs were laid out for devotees. A devotee is above the varnas and accepts the position in a varna as his service for the necessity of the mission. This is clearly stated.

 

Srila Swami Maharaj said in the varnashrama college that persons living there have to follow rules by their varna, but it is not clear at all to me he is talking about initiated disciples in the varnashrama college. I have the impression from my reading that the devotees would be the teachers (outside the varnas) and these colleges would be open to the public at large to prepare the greater society in the mode of goodness for spiritual life. Preliminary Help and that the ashramas come later, when they are ready to make a commitment and follow vows, like the bhakta programs in ISKCON now but on a much larger scale, maybe more general. So meat eating intoxication etc for uninitiated students would be allowed in some situations. But not for devotees. Though you may make a leap and say he meant that this was for the devotees, I believe there is not enough evidence to say that with certainty, and this definitely requires certainty. What is the harm in being careful here?

 

Maybe an in-depth look at what Srila Swami Maharaj's vision of the Varnashrama Colleges would be helpful.

[Guest guest]

 

You're missing the point entirely, you aren't really a ksatriya.

 

If we are acting out our roles, and they are our natural material tendency anyway, perhaps it should be done convincingly, and to the letter of the Acharya's orders.

[Guest guest]

 

I don't agree the evidence is clear that different regs were laid out for devotees

 

Anyone following a discipline given by the lotus lips of a Mahabhagavat Acharya is devoted to him to that degree, and thus at least a neophyte Vaisnava devotee. And especially when that Acharya offers SECOND initiation to the person. Even the one "acting" as sudra and taking some meat.

 

To insist otherwise could be considered smarta elitism, and I am sure that is not what a Devotee intends, but it often occurs in the beginning stages, no harm no foul right, live and learn right, we all make mistakes right?