Preliminary Help for Meat eaters

[brajeshwara das]

 

If we are acting out our roles, and they are our natural material tendency anyway, perhaps it should be done convincingly, and to the letter of the Acharya's orders.

 

Wow, you are really a Vaisnava? Srila Bhakti Sifddhanta Saraswati looked all over Vrndavan but couldn't find one Vaisnava, but here you are on the forum! Nice Kust kidding, thanks for making me think of that story. I know the point was different and I'm sure you are an exhalted devotee. I'm just an ass, don't mind me.

 

Anyhow, If we take initiation we understand we are entering into the world of bhakti and that that transcends all mundane material roles. We are acting as a guard because the temple needs to be guarded. We are doing the service required of us. We don't open a factory, build an army or do any manner of things just because we are playing a role in a varna. Service descends, we don't make it up. The varnas should serve bhakti clearly, we don't just maintain the activities of the varnas for their own sake.

 

Until I see that the acharya says something clearly to the effect 'You, initiated disciple, go out and kill and animal and eat its flesh' I will take the safe position and assume the Acharya's order that initiated disciples follow the four regulative principles trumps everything else.

[Guest guest]

I wonder if people considered Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada a fanatic the way he took his Prabhupada's stated desire to introduce DVD and spoke about it constantly for 3 years, and insisted it be introduced among the members of his society.

 

 

What a fanatic right!

[brajeshwara das]

 

Anyone following a discipline given by the lotus lips of a Mahabhagavat Acharya is devoted to him to that degree, and thus at least a neophyte Vaisnava devotee. And especially when that Acharya offers SECOND initiation to the person. Even the one "acting" as sudra and taking some meat.

 

To insist otherwise could be considered smarta elitism, and I am sure that is not what a Devotee intends, but it often occurs in the beginning stages, no harm no foul right, live and learn right, we all make mistakes right?

 

I'm not condoning elitism, and we all definitely make mistakes. Just it still isn't clear a devotee acting in the position of a sudra does all the activities of a sudra. Someone needs to dig a ditch for Gurudeva, or paint the temple, etc. Does someone need to eat a goat? Is that service? They aren't qualified to do brahman service maybe, but this doesn't naturally lead that they are so unqualified they can't follow the regulative principles.

 

Until you are ready to follow the principles, come to the temple, take prasadam, chant Hare Krishna, do service, play your role in the society. That is wonderful. When you are ready for the land of dedication, take the vows, follow strictly whatever you capacity. No problem.

[stonehearted]

 

Until I see that the acharya says something clearly to the effect 'You, initiated disciple, go out and kill and animal and eat its flesh' I will take the safe position and assume the Acharya's order that initiated disciples follow the four regulative principles trumps everything else.

It's more than the acharya's order. I've always followed those four principles because I promised him I would. It has never been my feeling, nor do I remember ever telling anyone, that I cannot eat meat, or that I cannot drink or gamble. Rather, I've always stated simply that I choose not to. In fact, if I wanted to eat something abominable, I would be capable of doing so (except for the fact that I never liked meat, as far back as even my mother could remember--I never had to give up meat or coffee to become a devotee).

[Guest guest]

 

Until I see that the acharya says something clearly to the effect 'You, initiated disciple, go out and kill and animal and eat its flesh' I will take the safe position and assume the Acharya's order that initiated disciples follow the four regulative principles trumps everything else.

 

Unfortunately as you have admitted your safe position is not so safe, as you have had great difficulty following the "4 regs".

 

So if you would listen to The Acharya...

 

 

Actually amongst my Godbrothers no one is qualified to become acarya. So it is better not to mix with my Godbrothers very intimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they may sometimes pollute them....

We shall be very careful about them and not mix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement

(Letter to Rupanuga, 28/4/74)

 

Perhaps he had you in mind to some degree or another when he made adjustments to what people had to do to be considered neophyte Vaisnava's in his Krsna Consciousness Movement, and with your determination, you would have the capability to fulfill your vows, because they would not be out of your reach according to the current guna and karma of your unique evolutionary moment.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I disagree with your interpretation. I agree that a varna has some rights, in that varna according to vedic injunctions they are not bound to the same regulations, but as an initiated devotee, I don't agree the evidence is clear that different regs were laid out for devotees. A devotee is above the varnas and accepts the position in a varna as his service for the necessity of the mission. This is clearly stated.

 

Srila Swami Maharaj said in the varnashrama college that persons living there have to follow rules by their varna, but it is not clear at all to me he is talking about initiated disciples in the varnashrama college. I have the impression from my reading that the devotees would be the teachers (outside the varnas) and these colleges would be open to the public at large to prepare the greater society in the mode of goodness for spiritual life. Preliminary Help and that the ashramas come later, when they are ready to make a commitment and follow vows, like the bhakta programs in ISKCON now but on a much larger scale, maybe more general. So meat eating intoxication etc for uninitiated students would be allowed in some situations. But not for devotees. Though you may make a leap and say he meant that this was for the devotees, I believe there is not enough evidence to say that with certainty, and this definitely requires certainty. What is the harm in being careful here?

 

Maybe an in-depth look at what Srila Swami Maharaj's vision of the Varnashrama Colleges would be helpful.

 

What you 'think' is one thing, that is for you. But if you want to interpret from an outstanding Guru such as Srila Prabhupada then it is customary on the vaisnava forms to post evidence relative and in context to the topic then refute or give a different view after some study. Are you studying these converstions?

 

CB-r

[brajeshwara das]

 

Unfortunately as you have admitted your safe position is not so safe, as you have had great difficulty following the "4 regs".

 

So if you would listen to The Acharya...

 

 

 

Perhaps he had you in mind to some degree or another when he made adjustments to what people had to do to be considered neophyte Vaisnava's in his Krsna Consciousness Movement, and with your determination, you would have the capability to fulfill your vows, because they would not be out of your reach according to the current guna and karma of your unique evolutionary moment.

 

Hare Krsna

 

It is my understanding he appologized to his godbrothers before leaving this plane. It was for you he gave this so your society wouldn't disintegrate as all your godbrothers sought out someone else as Guru. That is my understanding anyway. This isn't a topic I have spent any time studding so I frankly don't know. But anyone thinking the mercy of the Lord is limited should be careful.

[brajeshwara das]

 

What you 'think' is one thing, that is for you. But if you want to interpret from an outstanding Guru such as Srila Prabhupada then it is customary on the vaisnava forms to post evidence relative and in context to the topic then refute or give a different view after some study. Are you studying these converstions?

 

CB-r

 

I have read the quotes and I am not refuting Srila Swami Maharaj but your interpretation. It surely is with my own interpretation but we are both allowed. I believe I have shown flexibility in my position and have adjusted accordingly, I just don't reach the same conclusions as you.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Unfortunately as you have admitted your safe position is not so safe, as you have had great difficulty following the "4 regs".

 

 

Safe position as in my interpretation of the Acharya's order, not in my actual qualifications or realizations. I'm a fallen soul, there is no denying that.

[Guest guest]

 

It is my understanding he appologized to his godbrothers before leaving this plane. It was for you he gave this so your society wouldn't disintegrate as all your godbrothers sought out someone else as Guru. That is my understanding anyway. This isn't a topic I have spent any time studding so I frankly don't know. But anyone thinking the mercy of the Lord is limited should be careful.

 

An acharya is the consummate embodyment of mercy.

 

A neophyte or even madhyam disciple can give mercy too, but they only do so under strict regulative guidance of AN ACHARYA.

 

He apologized because he knows that (some of them especially) meant well and were making advancement themselves and he wanted to assure them he meant no offense, and even then if they felt offense, this was unacceptable to him and being the incarnation of compassion, apologized anyway.

 

But he never retracted any of his observations. Take it or leave it. Acharya is NO SMALL THING.

 

If his Godbrothers so understood the western mind that they could engage anyone and everyone who had a even smidgen of desire, why weren't they the ones who opened a zillion temples outside of India?

 

Why weren't they ordered to translate all the Main Gaudiya Scriptures into English, tailoring the purports to his audience, and preach in the west?

 

Why did they resist this great Acharya's request for assistance for years and years, even bringing him to chastise them for their resistance?

 

The list goes on but the point is clear.

 

An Acharya is rare and his instructions are dear.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I have read the quotes and I am not refuting Srila Swami Maharaj but your interpretation. It surely is with my own interpretation but we are both allowed. I believe I have shown flexibility in my position and have adjusted accordingly, I just don't reach the same conclusions as you.

 

OK fine, then show the part you say I have wrong and post your understanding and we can have a nice exchange. If you want. I do not mind. We can use the same conversation snipit.....

 

I'm wondering when Prabhupada answers the question of where and who, He does give a very plain responce as 'ISKCON' and 'amoung our members'. In another DVD conversation Prabhupada is asked about 4 regs and says yes 'but'. That it is not in one place shouldn't be a problem. So I am mildly currious as to why you say it is unclear. Plus a very nice purport explanation by Srila Prabhupada.

 

There is much much more but for brevities sake I hesitate to flood this form with all the DVD vani. What is posted should've been enough.

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

 

Safe position as in my interpretation of the Acharya's order, not in my actual qualifications or realizations. I'm a fallen soul, there is no denying that.

 

It is condemned for a beginner to interpret the Acharya's order.

 

interpret: to conceive in the light of individual belief, judgment, or circumstance (mirriam-webster)

 

This is why the slokas are Translated into english.

 

Translate= to turn into one's own or another language (M-W)

 

And to give purport requires full transcendental understanding.

 

purport= meaning conveyed, professed, or implied (Mirriam webster)

 

So just read the order as it is. And if it needs translation to a language you better understand, ask for a translator, not an interpreter.

 

And you are on your way!!

 

Hari Bol!!

 

 

 

.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

It is my understanding he appologized to his godbrothers before leaving this plane. It was for you he gave this so your society wouldn't disintegrate as all your godbrothers sought out someone else as Guru. That is my understanding anyway. This isn't a topic I have spent any time studding so I frankly don't know. But anyone thinking the mercy of the Lord is limited should be careful.

 

You do not understand 'why' an aplogy was given do you? You actually have the idea Srila Prabhupada is some how less than His brothers, when actually, He is so much more.

I apologize to my childeren, even I made no mistake. but that does not make them more than the father. It is for their encouragement, nothing more. The mistakes were not on Prabhupada's part, He spread the chanting of the Maha mantra thtough out the world. No one else even moved untill Prabhupada left and vultures came out to make false claims of grandure in Prabhupada's absents.

 

The apology was Vaisnava edict.

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

BG intro

 

We must accept Bhagavad-gétä without interpretation, without deletion and without our own whimsical participation in the matter.

 

BG 16.1-3

 

That is the process for understanding Vedas. Sruti means that one should hear from the authority. One should not construe some interpretation for his personal interest.

 

SB 2.9.37

 

Therefore, the Lord warns Brahma (and, through Brahma, all future devotees of the Lord in the disciplic succession of Brahma) that one should never be misled by the conclusion of the so-called grammarians or by other men with a poor fund of knowledge, but must always fix the mind properly, via the parampara system. No one should try to give a new interpretation by dint of mundane knowledge. And the first step, therefore, in pursuance of the system of knowledge received by Brahma, is to approach a bona fide guru who is the representative of the Lord following the parampara system. No one should try to squeeze out his own meaning by imperfect mundane knowledge.

 

sb 3.19.32

 

Here the sage Maitreya admits that he explained the incident of the killing of Hiranyaksa by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a straight narration; he did not manufacture anything or add interpretation, but explained whatever he had heard from his spiritual master. Thus he accepted as bona fide the system of parampara, or receiving the transcendental message in disciplic succession. Unless received by this bona fide process of hearing from a spiritual master, the statement of an acarya or preceptor cannot be valid.

[Guest guest]

 

You do not understand 'why' an aplogy was given do you? You actually have the idea Srila Prabhupada is some how less than His brothers, when actually, He is so much more.

I apologize to my childeren, even I made no mistake. but that does not make them more than the father. It is for encouragement, nothing more. The mistakes were not on Prabhupada's part, He spread the chanting of the Maha mantra thtough out the world. No one else even moved untill Prabhupada left and vultures came out to make false claims of grandure in Prabhupada's absents.

 

The apology was Vaisnava edict.

 

CB-r

 

Wow, what he said.

 

And on that note, sleep well and sweet dreams of Krsna.

[brajeshwara das]

The following is the only place I have seen quoted that Srila Swami Maharaj is saying to eat meat:

 

 

Conv. 3/14/74

 

Hridayananda: So in our varnasrama college the students that come to our college, they follow the four principles... They follow...

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

Hridayananda: What he kills.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

 

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

 

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat. Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition

 

 

Hridayananda: So just to clarify, Prabhupada, I want to make sure I have it very clear, that if someone comes to our varnasrama college, even though this may be preliminary help, in general—you’ve made some exceptions—but in general, when they come to our college, they have to follow the four regulative principles, also learn something about Bhagavad-gita and then, side by side, they learn a...

 

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hridayananda: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill. Here also, as soon as you’ll find, the kshatriya, a thief, a rogue, unwanted element in the society, kill him. That’s all. Finish. Kill him. Bas. Finished. So other will see, “Oh, the ruler is very strong.” And others will... One killing will be lesson for many hundreds and thousands. No mercy. “Kill him.” That’s all. That was the system. In Kashmir about hundred years ago. If somebody has stolen, cut his hand. Bas. He cannot steal any more. So one cutting hand means finish. In that part of the world, no more stealing.

 

I don't see that he is talking about initiated disciples here. You may read this into it, go ahead. It isn't clear to me. That the Varnashrama system would be part of the general ISKCON movement I also don't contest, just I see a distinction from the Varnashrama College open to the general public and initiated ISKCON devotees, and the role any meat eating may have. Of course something open to the general public may not follow the same rules as a a temple. Give me more evidence that initiated disciples can eat meat. It has to be a specific reference, because I believe he was making a distinction.

 

Also please don't use Bhima as an example for the common man. "Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others." He was an exception.

[brajeshwara das]

 

You do not understand 'why' an aplogy was given do you? You actually have the idea Srila Prabhupada is some how less than His brothers, when actually, He is so much more.

I apologize to my childeren, even I made no mistake. but that does not make them more than the father. It is for their encouragement, nothing more. The mistakes were not on Prabhupada's part, He spread the chanting of the Maha mantra thtough out the world. No one else even moved untill Prabhupada left and vultures came out to make false claims of grandure in Prabhupada's absents.

 

The apology was Vaisnava edict.

 

CB-r

Srila Swami Maharaj asked his disciples to seek guidance from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who he even called Siksa Guru. I am not saying he made a mistake in his criticisms of his Godbrothers, but that he had a purpose for saying what he said about his Godbrothers. My understanding it was to keep ISKCON as an organization focussed, if some disciples thought other Gurus may have something more they may have left Srila Swami Maharaj and damaged the mission. I don't think it was just a formality to apologize. He had done the needful in his comments and my understanding is Srila Sridhar Maharaj knew this.

[brajeshwara das]

 

...vultures came out to make false claims of grandure in Prabhupada's absents.

 

 

ok, you should be very careful not to cause offense to Guru Tatva. I think this is my cue to avoid your association. Hare Krishna Prabhu. I wish the best for you always.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Swami Maharaj asked his disciples to seek guidance from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who he even called Siksa Guru. I am not saying he made a mistake in his criticisms of his Godbrothers, but that he had a purpose for saying what he said about his Godbrothers. My understanding it was to keep ISKCON as an organization focussed, if some disciples thought other Gurus may have something more they may have left Srila Swami Maharaj and damaged the mission. I don't think it was just a formality to apologize. He had done the needful in his comments and my understanding is Srila Sridhar Maharaj knew this.

 

I was never told by Srila Prabhupada to seek out B R Sridara Maharaja. In fact I was told to stay put firmly in one place, at Prabhupada's lotus feet as best I could, never leave. And as I heard from others older than you, that is a big IF, not a clear cut order for everyone now go to B R Sridara Maharaja. Do you have verification of this through ISKCON arcives, like a conversation or is this in someone elses history? Keep the mission together? It help split it like a watermelon.

 

And the shiksha guru thing is also blown out of purportion. For initiation in your math, it is done as Prabhupada did, ritvic. Get it? Out of purportion, not to say there was not an excedingly intimate relationship between these two Godbrothers, but this seamingly minimizing of Srila Prabhupada's position as senior is not right. Prabhupada is the senior preacher and presented the strongest branch. Though disfunctional, ISKCON still is. But we will rebuild.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja

[Beggar]

Sometimes its necessary to play devils advocate in order to get someone to reveal their actual position, which is what I have done several times anonymously a little earlier. The DVD Ksatriya deer hunter fallacy is just another Prabhupada-onlyite manifestion which is akin to Rtvikism in that it divorces B.V. Swami Prabhupada from his own guru-varga. Once you get below the surface you find that they have a very prejudiced, negative view of all of Prabhupada's godbrothers and their successors in the guru varga. Once I was at a big North American ISKCON temple for a festival. Some Poison Theory/Rtviks were across the street dressed in battle fatigues handing out flyers. I'm sure that they were also "Survivalists" and possesed firm arms. From there it's just a small leap to deer hunting.

[brajeshwara das]

We are very fortunate to hear His Divine Grace, Om Visnupad Paramahamsa Parivrajak Acharya Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaj. By age and by experience, in both ways, he is senior to me. I was fortunate to have his association since a long time, since perhaps 1930. At that time he had not accepted sannyas, but had just left home. He went to preach in Allahabad, and on that auspicious occasion we were connected. Sridhar Maharaj lived in my house for many years, so naturally we had very intimate talks. He has such high realizations of Krishna that one would faint to hear them. He was always my good advisor, and I took his advice very seriously because from the very beginning I knew that he was a pure devotee of Krishna. So, I wanted to associate with him. Krishna and Prabhupad, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, liked him to prepare me. Our relationship is very intimate. After the breakdown of our spiritual master’s institution I wanted to organize another institution making Sridhar Maharaj the head. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur told me that Sridhar Maharaj is one of the finest preachers of Krishna consciousness in the world, so I wanted to take him everywhere. This was my earnest desire. But since he could not go around the world and preach, at least the people of the world should come to hear from him. For spiritual advancement of life we must go to someone who is actually practicing spiritual life. So if one is actually serious to take instructions from a siksa guru, or instructing spiritual master, I can refer him to one who is the most competent of all my Godbrothers. This is B.R. Sridhar Maharaj. I consider Sridhar Maharaj to be even my siksa guru, so what to speak of the benefit that others can have from his association.

 

~ Srila Swami Maharaj

[brajeshwara das]

Actually, on second thought it is better to be careful with your pearls.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

ok, you should be very careful not to cause offense to Guru Tatva. I think this is my cue to avoid your association. Hare Krishna Prabhu. I wish the best for you always.

 

Guru Tatva? What ever.

 

That I should not speak about Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers is a fact. Even He has used the terminology 'black snake' as discriptive of some, it is not for me to say. It has always been the followers of such Godbrothers actually that I have a bad time with. Like the agresive pitching of one guru over an other or the living Guru trap. Who is their guru that say like that? They are the ones that denegate Srila prabhupada as a senior Godbrother by dint of His amazing preaching success.

 

And I should remember it is not for me to comment on Prabhupada's favorite Godbrother especially, B R Sridhara Maharaja. Please forgive my mistake.

 

But his followers are another issue. So if you would like for me to behave, I say the same to you.

 

CB-r

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Swami Maharaj asked his disciples to seek guidance from Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

This is an example of bad preaching. Not taking the audience into consideration, and it is acutally a false statement.

 

I have heard that a few of SP's disciples who were leaving his mission were told directly to go to Srila B.R. Sridhar for shelter.

 

He never asked "his disciples" to seek his guidance. He repeatedly told his disciples all answers to their questions were in his books, and there was nothing left for him to tell them. I will spare you the quotes, you have seen them plenty I am certain.

 

You are not cautious. By using such a blanket term. Why would you do this? What is this a symptom of? Carelessness.

 

And then Caturbahu makes reference to some of Srila Prabhuapda's godbrothers who did make great claims of inheritorship of Iskcon, and grandeur. Which may or may not have happened. Usually it was his godbrother's disciples who did such things. But I know one of Srila Prabhupada's godnephews who has done just this.

 

So who is baiting who and for what reason?

 

Why not stick to the facts and provide evidence instead of making these erroneous statements??

 

Indeed I consider Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj to be an advanced devotee, but that is just my opinion. I believe that a disciple of Srila Prabhupada who makes a certain degree of advancement under his instructions may naturally find some of what SBRSM has to say in his books to be of some value in the course of time, without some follower of SBRSM needing to "try" and hook him into the mission.

 

Fences make good neighbors. Some of the posters here have jumped the fence, and made camp right in other's backyards. It is a shame. That is a preaching technique which will NEVER bear fruit.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Sometimes its necessary to play devils advocate in order to get someone to reveal their actual position, which is what I have done several times anonymously a little earlier. The DVD Ksatriya deer hunter fallacy is just another Prabhupada-onlyite manifestion which is akin to Rtvikism in that it divorces B.V. Swami Prabhupada from his own guru-varga. Once you get below the surface you find that they have a very prejudiced, negative view of all of Prabhupada's godbrothers and their successors in the guru varga. Once I was at a big North American ISKCON temple for a festival. Some Poison Theory/Rtviks were across the street dressed in battle fatigues handing out flyers. I'm sure that they were also "Survivalists" and possesed firm arms. From there it's just a small leap to deer hunting.

 

'Deer hunter fallacy' are you a devotee of Krsna? Do you read SB with faith in the words? Have you a clue to the conversations in question? or the regulations/duties of Ksatriya varna? You again make outlandish accusations with no vani support to your claims of impropiorties to my posts. Like so many others you have a mouth, but no support from Guru to back it up.

 

Put up the relivent purports or conversations or any of Srila Prabhupada's vani on the subject of DVD that will point out I have posted out of context or stop drooling on line please.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti-raja