Preliminary Help for Meat eaters

[brajeshwara das]

 

Yes, we can all look forward to an endless amount of "explanations" of the meaning of the Bhagavatam by "intelligent academics".

 

As long as they are so qualified by dint of their "intelligence" and ability and impress modern academia with their brilliant theoretical speculation, what does it matter if they disagree with a few instructions of their Diksa Guru here or there?

 

Imagine, lifetime after lifetime of newer and slightly different and contradictory interpretations of the Holy scriptures. Pure bliss.

 

Who gave the instructions for the devotees to finish the Bhagavatam translations and purports? I don't know the history on this.

[Beggar]

Pradyumna Prabhu, Prabhupada's main translator for texts, was supposed to finish the Bhagavatam. He was to do this in consultation with Srila Sridhar Maharaja who Srila Prabhupada once said was the only other person who was qualified to translate the Bhagavatam. Amongst Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples, Pradyumna was one the very first to speak out against the Magnificent Eleven (Zonal Acarya) plan and was driven out of ISKCON.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Pradyumna Prabhu, Prabhupada's main translator for texts, was supposed to finish the Bhagavatam. He was to do this in consultation with Srila Sridhar Maharaja who Srila Prabhupada once said was the only other person who was qualified to translate the Bhagavatam. Amongst Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples, Pradyumna was one the very first to speak out against the Magnificent Eleven (Zonal Acarya) plan and was driven out of ISKCON.

 

Ah, ok, so how should we take the subsequent translations? Or even for that matter should we?

[Beggar]

Ah, ok, so how should we take the subsequent translations? Or even for that matter should we?

The translations really aren't that bad but you have to take them with a grain of salt because there are mistakes here and there. Most of the work was actually done by Gopi Paranadhana Prabhu. Part of the problem is that Hrdayananda Maharaja added some very political statements in some of the purports. Also when 11.1 came out, the front cover said "By His Divine Grace Hrdayananda Goswami Maharaja, an Acarya of the International Society for Krsna Conciousness".

[theist]

 

Of course Prabhu. I'm sorry if I sounded like I doubt the translations and purports. I just know if I tried to use that as evidence some would balk at it.

No No again braj ji,

 

I was just pointing out that something is not useless just because it was not written by a pure devotee. If that were so why would Srila Prabhupada choose to instruct his disciples to write, or to give lectures for that matter?

 

I don't even accept Srila Prabhupada's words as being absolute truth as I read them. I consider that blind faith. As a conditioned soul I am hearing those instructions through a conditioned mind so the first impression I get is highly suspect. It is not until after prayerful consideration and the grace of the Lord in the heart ("I dwelling in their destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance") can I feel confident I understand.

 

There is no other way of receiving transcendental knowledge then by the grace of Caityaguru.

 

We can just read Prabhupada's words and allow the mind to fill in the gaps of context and meaning and think we are hearing Prabhupada because we can quote it back. This is a dangerous delusion. Just see those that "hear" Prabhupada telling them it's ok to kill animals and eat meat irregardless of the vows they have taken.

 

Now I have no love lost on Hridayananda. No hatred either. But The person Srila Prabhupada instructed to finish the SB was Pradyumnya if I remember right. He was pushed aside and others jumped in. So I consider Hridayananda and co. an academic with a vaisnava understanding.Definetly on the mental/intellectual plane. That is different from accepting him as a transcendental lover of Krsna. If they were lovers of Krsna they would have followed His devotees order to have Pradyumnya finish the SB.

 

But I still read the 11th canto and would love to see the Uddhava-gita issued from it as a separate book. Perhaps even with commentary from another GM line. Impersonalists have translated Uddhava-gita and it would be nice to see the Vaisnava perspective represented in that way.

 

But don't anyoned be fooled by this bhakti-king person. I quote a verse that was Narada's instruction to Mrigari the hunter and his purport and this "Prabhupada man" flat out rejected Srila Prabhupada's words because "he didn't speak about DVD."

 

You will never convince these animal killers of anything but you are surely protecting others from being fooled by him.

 

Hari bol soul!

[theist]

 

Pradyumna Prabhu, Prabhupada's main translator for texts, was supposed to finish the Bhagavatam. He was to do this in consultation with Srila Sridhar Maharaja who Srila Prabhupada once said was the only other person who was qualified to translate the Bhagavatam. Amongst Srila Prabhupada's senior disciples, Pradyumna was one the very first to speak out against the Magnificent Eleven (Zonal Acarya) plan and was driven out of ISKCON.

 

I didn't know he was to consult with His Grace Sridhar Maharaja. Can you imagine how wonderful that would have been? Nor can I.

[Guest guest]

You all are so ignorant, don't you know we mostly are all born hunters. We have canine teeth. So some priests can be veggies, the common person needs meat! Prabhupada

said it even. Let up hunt in peace! So what id only said it once and not so clearly, you have on faith in him thats why you eight it. admit you want meat one come hunting with me!

[Guest guest]

Theist says

 

But The person Srila Prabhupada instructed to finish the SB was Pradyumnya if I remember right. He was pushed aside and others jumped in. So I consider Hridayananda and co. an academic with a vaisnava understanding.Definetly on the mental/intellectual plane. That is different from accepting him as a transcendental lover of Krsna. If they were lovers of Krsna they would have followed His devotees order to have Pradyumnya finish the SB.

 

A vaisnava understaning from one who disobeys his spiritual master?

 

 

BG 3.32

TRANSLATION

But those who, out of envy, disregard these teachings and do not practice them regularly, are to be considered bereft of all knowledge, befooled, and doomed to ignorance and bondage.

 

PURPORT

The flaw of not being Krsna conscious is clearly stated herein. As there is punishment for disobedience to the order of the supreme executive head, so there is certainly punishment for the disobedience of the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A disobedient person, however great he may be, is ignorant of his own self, of the Supreme Brahman, and Paramätmä and the Personality of Godhead, due to a vacant heart. Therefore there is no hope of perfection of life for him.

 

Sound like someone who should be interpreting the Bhagavatam?

 

 

SB 7.5.23-24

While chanting the holy name of the Lord, one should be careful to avoid ten offenses.... 3)to disobey the instructions of the spiritual master,

 

 

SB 4.18.5

TRANSLATION: A foolish person who manufactures his own ways and means through mental speculation and does not recognize the authority of the sages who lay down unimpeachable directions is simply unsuccessful again and again in his attempts.

 

PURPORT:

At the present moment it has become fashionable to disobey the unimpeachable directions given by the äcäryas and liberated souls of the past. Presently people are so fallen that they cannot distinguish between a liberated soul and a conditioned soul. A conditioned soul is hampered by four defects: he is sure to commit mistakes, he is sure to become illusioned, he has a tendency to cheat others, and his senses are imperfect. Consequently we have to take direction from liberated persons.

 

And exactly who disobeys the order of the Spiritual Master?

 

 

BG 16.24 purport

 

Those in the modes of passion and ignorance deride the scriptures, deride the holy men, and deride the proper understanding of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They disobey the instructions of the spiritual master, and they do not care for the regulations of the scriptures.

And what can we possibly gain by reading a Bhagavatam "translation" from a person in the modes of passion and ignorance?

CC. Madhya 22.131 Purport- The words sajatiyasaye snigdhe sadhau sangah svato vare are very important items. One should not associate with professional Bhagavatam reciters. A professional Bhagavatam reciter is one who is not in the disciplic succession or one who has no taste for bhakti-yoga. Simply on the strength of grammatical knowledge and word jugglery, professional reciters maintain their bodies and their desires for sense gratification by reading Srimad-Bhagavatam. One should also avoid those who are averse to Lord Visnu and His devotees, those who are Mayavadis, those who offend the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra....Srimad-Bhagavatam can only be recited by one who has unflinching faith in the lotus feet of Krsna and His devotee, the spiritual master. One should try to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam from the spiritual master.

 

The Vedic injunction states: bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam na buddhya na ca tikaya. One has to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam through the process of devotional service and by hearing the recitation of a pure devotee. These are the injunctions of Vedic literature-sruti and smrti. Those who are not in the disciplic succession and who are not pure devotees cannot understand the real mysterious objective of Srimad-Bhagavatam and Srimad Bhagavad-gita.

 

Cannot understand, let alone give translation and purport as "acharya"

 

 

SB 6.17.40

 

One should not hear the statements of Srimad-Bhägavatam from professional reciters, or else they will not be effective.

 

 

But I still read the 11th canto

 

 

But I still read the 11th canto

[theist]

 

Theist says

 

 

A vaisnava understaning from one who disobeys his spiritual master?

 

I said from the mental/intellectual plane and differentiated that from a pure lover of God. You use this same selective hearing when hearing from Srila Prabhupada. Ever hear of a mixed devotee? Jnana Misra bhakti maybe?

 

Hey using Prabhupada's name as some kind of badge of authority "Guest of Prabhupada" and thus placing yourself as his representative is just a weak version of sitting on your own homemade vyasasana and claiing to be a rep of Krsna. Just another fraud.

[Guest guest]

 

I said from the mental/intellectual plane and differentiated that from a pure lover of God. You use this same selective hearing when hearing from Srila Prabhupada. Ever hear of a mixed devotee? Jnana Misra bhakti maybe?

 

Hey using Prabhupada's name as some kind of badge of authority "Guest of Prabhupada" and thus placing yourself as his representative is just a weak version of sitting on your own homemade vyasasana and claiing to be a rep of Krsna. Just another fraud.

 

Disobedience to Guru = Fit to Translate and Purport the Srimad Bhagavatam?

 

I don't think so. Let's break it down shall we?

 

A Kanistha adhikari (neophyte) if following strictly is considered a pure devotee.

 

 

Adi 7.51 purport.

 

...Although a kanistha-adhikari also cannot tolerate such blasphemy, he is not competent to stop it by citing sastric evidences. Therefore Tapana Misra and Candrasekhara are understood to be kanistha-adhikaris because they could not refute the arguments of the sannyasis in Benares....

 

 

Adi 7.52

 

Translation While Tapana Misra and Candrasekhara were thus talking with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He only smiled slightly and remained silent. At that time a brahmana came there to meet the Lord.

 

PURPORT

Because the blasphemy was cast against Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself, He did not feel sorry, and therefore He was smiling. This is ideal Vaisnava behavior. One should not become angry upon hearing criticism of himself, but if other Vaisnavas are criticized one must be prepared to act as previously suggested. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was very compassionate for His pure devotees Tapana Misra and Candrasekhara; therefore by His grace this brahmana immediately came to Him. By His omnipotency the Lord created this situation for the happiness of His devotees.

 

 

NOI 5 purport .

This is the way to cultivate devotional service properly; therefore in this verse Srila Rupa Gosvami has advised us how to treat various devotees. We can see from practical experience that there are different types of Vaisnavas. The prakrta-sahajiyas generally chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, yet they are attached to women, money and intoxication. Although such persons may chant the holy name of the Lord, they are not yet properly purified. Such people should be respected within one’s mind, but their association should be avoided. Those who are innocent but simply carried away by bad association should be shown favor if they are eager to receive proper instructions from pure devotees, but those neophyte devotees who are actually initiated by the bona fide spiritual master and are seriously engaged in carrying out the orders of the spiritual master should be offered respectful obeisances.

 

A person who disobeys the Acharya and sits in his seat and calls himself Acarayadeva is a Jnana Misra Bhakta??

 

From which scripture do you derive that definition of a mixed devotee. Oh I forgot, you are the Theist, you don't need to quote scripture.

 

Prakrta Sahajya at best.

 

Disobeient person dwelling on the mental plane = SPECULATOR.

 

They are a dime a dozen.

 

Ironically the very person who disobediently made an attempt at the 11th canto, actually got one purport correct, the one which describes his own actions.

 

11.3.22

 

According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, those who have achieved a mature understanding of the transcendental sound vibration of Srimad-Bhagavatam may adopt the order of tridandi-sannyasa, as described in the Hamsa-gita, the Thirteenth Chapter of this canto. A so-called Vaisnava who whimsically neglects the strict control of the body, mind and speech cannot actually achieve shelter at the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master. Even if such a whimsical sense enjoyer makes a show of assuming the dress and danda of Vaisnava sannyasa, he will not attain the desired result, love of Krsna. A bona fide Vaisnava should work earnestly to free himself from any tinge of sense gratification and mental speculation, and with a loving heart he should carry out the orders of his bona fide spiritual master.

[Guest guest]

Authorization Required by Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada for his disciples to write transcendental literature.

 

 

CC Adi 8.73

 

TRANSLATION

Having received the order of the Vaisnavas but being anxious within my heart, I went to the temple of Madana-mohana in Vrndavana to ask His permission also.

 

PURPORT

A Vaisnava always follows the order of guru and Krsna. Sri Caitanya-caritamrta was written by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami by their mercy. Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami considered all the devotees that have been mentioned to be his preceptor gurus, or spiritual masters, and Madana-gopala (Sri Madana-mohana vigraha) is Krsna Himself. Thus he took permission from both of them, and when he received the mercy of both guru and Krsna, he was able to write this great literature, Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. This example should be followed. Anyone who attempts to write about Krsna must first take permission from the spiritual master and Krsna. Krsna is situated in everyone's heart, and the spiritual master is His direct external representative. Thus Krsna is situated antar-bahih, within and without. One must first become a pure devotee by following the strict regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds daily, and when one thinks that he is actually on the Vaisnava platform, he must then take permission from the spiritual master, and that permission must also be confirmed by Krsna from within his heart. Then, if one is very sincere and pure, he can write transcendental literature, either prose or poetry.

 

Something to consider.

 

And as far as who is actually advanced enough to call upon the Lord in the Heart at will for audience??

 

 

SB 3.5.4 purport

 

The bhakti process, as performed under the regulative principles of vaidhi-bhakti, or devotional service following the prescribed rules and regulations, is defined by the revealed scriptures and confirmed by great acaryas. This practice can help the neophyte devotee to rise to the stage of raga-bhakti, in which the Lord responds from within as the caitya-guru, or the spiritual master as Superconsciousness.

 

At the stage of RAGA Bhakti, the lord RESPONDS from within. Thus a direct instruction.

 

This is much different from the DIRECTION each and every living entity receives from Caitya guru throughout their entire sojourn in material existence.

 

We are always being guided by him, even when we don't know it or don't think we are.

 

But to put questions before him and get RESPONSE, clearly and in a way we can understand??

 

We must have risen to the stage of RAGA BHAKTI by strictly following the EXTERNAL orders of Caitya guru through his appearance as the external Spiritual Master, from his voice in person or his voice in his instruction manuals.

 

 

SB 4.28.21

 

The Lord is the Supersoul seated in everyone’s heart, and He acts as the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within. However, He gives direct instructions only to the advanced, pure devotees. In the beginning, when a devotee is serious and sincere, the Lord gives him directions from within to approach a bona fide spiritual master. When one is trained by the spiritual master according to the regulative principles of devotional service and is situated on the platform of spontaneous attachment for the Lord (raga-bhakti), the Lord also gives instructions from within. Tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam [bg. 10.10]. This distinct advantage is obtained by a liberated soul. Having attained this stage, King Malayadhvaja was directly in touch with the Supreme Lord and was receiving instructions from Him directly.

 

We blindly receive direction to find the external spiritual master.

 

Then when we are both PURE and ADVANCED we recieve DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS from within.

 

The transcendental attachment of Raga Bhakti is no small thing. Such a person is so attached to the devotional service of the Lord they actually follow in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vraja, the Ragatmikas, who are deeply absorbed in Krsna.

 

 

TLC 13.

 

Devotional service discharged with such attachment is called ragatmika, and deep attachment with deep absorption in the object of love is called ragatmika. Examples of these can be seen in the activities of the residents of Vrajabhumi. One who becomes attracted to Krsna by hearing of such attachment is certainly very fortunate. When one becomes deeply affected by the devotion of the residents of Vrajabhumi and tries to follow in their footsteps, he does not care for the restrictions or regulations of the revealed scriptures. This is the characteristic of one discharging raga-bhakti.

 

Enough said.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

So we are all in agreement that devotees can kill and eat meat and still make it to the spiritual sky, right?

[Guest guest]

 

So we are all in agreement that devotees can kill and eat meat and still make it to the spiritual sky, right?

 

You can't be serious...

 

Are you writing from a McDonald's internet cafe or something?

 

To many bovine growth hormones clouding the old neural pathways?

 

Did Sri Bhimaji make it to the spiritual sky?

 

Did any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples temporarily fall down from their vows and eat meat, but repented and began chanting and following again, and thus rightly situated?

 

Put down the Big Mac, and read BG 9.30

[Guest guest]

But they are saying it is authorized, not cows but deer. Hunted meat is ok for some devotees.

[Guest guest]

Gotcha, just checking, I agree.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

So what are the rules then, where is this explained? Where does Srila Prabhupada describe how to do when to do? Are there special mantras?

do we offer to the Lord or who?

[mahak]

There is nowhere where a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is allowed to eat meat. Disciples of Srila Prabhupada eat only that which is offered to Krsna, who says what he will accept clearly. No dead carcasses can ever be offered to anyone but a cruel tongue, an uncontrolled belly, and nonsense mental speculators who are pretending to be something other that low life mleccas.

 

mahak

[bhaktatraveler]

 

There is nowhere where a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is allowed to eat meat. Disciples of Srila Prabhupada eat only that which is offered to Krsna, who says what he will accept clearly. No dead carcasses can ever be offered to anyone but a cruel tongue, an uncontrolled belly, and nonsense mental speculators who are pretending to be something other that low life mleccas.

 

mahak

 

Your as wrong as wrong can be Mahakasa. These conversations are very explicit in the explanations of DVD for ISKCON, would you care to site the portion that you think is miss understood? Twice Srila Prabhupada was asked about 4 regs and both times He said 'except' 'It is just like sex in marrage for procreation.

 

And all through our books the same thing is explained about these varna regs.

 

You think because you and the rest refused to impliment DVD that the words are of no use now? No. Instructions still stand for anyone to follow inspite of the detractors.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[Guest guest]

 

There is nowhere where a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is allowed to eat meat. Disciples of Srila Prabhupada eat only that which is offered to Krsna, who says what he will accept clearly. No dead carcasses can ever be offered to anyone but a cruel tongue, an uncontrolled belly, and nonsense mental speculators who are pretending to be something other that low life mleccas.

 

mahak

 

Oops, Mahak forgot to quote his authority.

 

First it is obvious that Srila Prabhupada offered that his disciples may eat meat.

 

 

Conversation Vrndaban 3-14-74

 

Prabhupada: Four regulative principles compulsory.

 

Hridayananda: Yes.

 

Prabhupada: But ...if some of the kshatriya or the sudras, they want, so that is our prescription: “Go to the forest and kill some animal and eat that.” That’s all. You can kill one boar. Some disturbing elements, you can kill. You can kill some tiger. Like that. Learn to kill. No nonviolence. Learn to kill.

....

Yaduvara: How would the kshatriyas kill the animals?

 

Prabhupada: Eh?

 

Yaduvara: How would they kill? With guns or bow and arrow?

 

Prabhupada: That, as it is suitable. It is not that because the kshatriyas were killing by bows and arrows formerly, you have to continue that. That is another foolishness. If you have got... If you can kill easily by guns, take that gun.

 

 

March 14 1974 Morning walk, Vrndaban.

 

Prabhupada: Four principles essential. Essential. But only the sudras or the kshatriyas... Just like kshatriyas, they have to learn how to kill. So practically, they should go to the forest and kill some animal. And if he likes, he can eat also. If he likes, he can eat also.

 

 

4/20/74

 

A devotee, because he is working as a sudra, he is not a sudra; neither he is a brahmana. He is already in the spiritual platform. But for management we have to do that. One can do the sudra’s work nicely—let him be engaged in that way. Why he should imitate?

 

Mahamsa: Does he get second initiation?

 

Prabhupada: Everything he will get.

 

Mahamsa: He gets.

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Second initiation means recognized:

 

“Now he has become fully competent Vaishnava.” Just like master is teaching the servant, “Now you give massage in this way, this way.” But that does not mean he has become servant.

 

 

July 11 1976 Evening Darshan

 

That sacrifice also recommended in this sense, that you cannot stop animal killing, there will be a class of men who will eat meat—to give them some concession. So this is recommended, “All right, if you want to eat meat, you sacrifice.” Amongst the Hindus, just like Kali-puja, Durga-puja, the animal eaters, they are given this concession, that “If you want to eat meat, you just worship Goddess Kali,” and this goddess Kali-worshiping is recommended on the amavasya, the dark moon night, one day in a month, at the dead of night. So if one goes on eating meat in this way, one day in a month and dead of night, then he’ll automatically give it up.

 

Hridayananda: What he kills.

Prabhupada: Yes. But not from the slaughterhouse. Those who are kshatriyas, they can, they’re allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is understood Bhima, Bhima also eating sometimes meat. Bhima. Amongst the Pandavas, only Bhima. Not others. So if the kshatriyas, they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for meat-eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense, degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the sudras, they also sometimes eat meat. Or the candalas.

Hridayananda: But never the cow.

Prabhupada: No. Cow... The sudras, they can take a goat and sacrifice before the deity, goddess Kali, and then eat.

 

Nobody should be given unrestricted freedom to eat meat. Or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine, then there is Candi-puja, Durga-puja. That means restriction. That means restriction. Under certain condition. Similarly, sex life—marriage. That is also sex life, but under condition.

 

 

2/15/77

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection.

 

At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection.

 

No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana?

 

Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana.

 

So a person with tendencies of being a sudra gets 2nd initiation, is recognized as Vaisnava but remains acting as sudra under the rules and regulations given by Srila Prabhupada and gradually makes advancement and gets perfection.

 

Vaisnava sudra follows Srila Prabhupada's discipline.

 

Vaisnava sudra is disciple of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada's disciple eats meat.

 

The disciple does not offer to Lord Krsna directly, but offers to the goddess Kali or Chadi or Durga.

 

 

CC Adi 17.37-38 This brahmana, Gopala Capala, wanted to defame Srivasa Thakura by proving that he was actually a sakta, or a worshiper of Bhavani, the goddess Durga, but was externally posing as a Vaisnava. In Bengal there is perpetual competition between the devotees of Goddess Kali and the devotees of Lord Krsna. Generally Bengalis, especially those who are meat-eaters and drunkards, are very much attached to worshiping the goddesses Durga, Kali, Sitala and Candi.

 

However, we also know that Durga is not just any demigoddess.

 

 

SB 10.1.69 The Narada-pancaratra clearly states that the Supreme Personality has one potency, which is sometimes described as Durga. The Brahma-samhita says, chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga [bs. 5.44]. Durga is not different from yogamaya. When one understands Durga properly, he is immediately liberated, for Durga is originally the spiritual potency, hladini-sakti, by whose mercy one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead very easily.

 

But she plays the role of demigoddess accepting worship of Vaisnavas for material gains.

 

 

Krishna Book. 1.50

Rukmini told Krsna not to be concerned that many of her family members, including other women, might be wounded or even killed if the fighting took place within the palace. As the king of a country thinks of diplomatic ways to achieve his object, similarly Rukmini, being the daughter of a king, was diplomatic in suggesting how this unnecessary and undesirable killing could be avoided.

She explained that it was the custom of her family to visit the temple of the goddess Durga, their family deity, before a marriage. (The ksatriya kings were mostly staunch Vaisnavas, worshiping Lord Visnu in either the Radha-Krsna or Laksmi-Narayana form; still, for their material welfare they used to worship the goddess Durga. They never made the mistake, however, of accepting the demigods as the Supreme Lord on the level of Visnu-tattva, as did some less intelligent men.)

 

Of course we must remember that in the beginning as neophytes none of us offer anything to Lord Krsna. Whatever we offer is offered to the Spiritual Master first.

 

 

SB 7.7.30-31 purport

Everything should be offered to the spiritual master as a matter of duty, but the offering should be made to the spiritual master with heart and soul, not artificially to gain material prestige. This offering is called arpana. Moreover, one should live among devotees, saintly persons, to learn the etiquette and proper behavior of devotional service. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura remarks in this connection that whatever is offered to the spiritual master should be offered with love and affection, not for material adoration.

 

So in the same way,Srila Prabhupada's opinion is that if a person is sincerely with heart and soul trying to follow him, they may offer their sense gratification to his coworker, Durga Devi, who accepts the essence of the offering, which is devotion and dedication to becoming a Vaisnava servant. She handles the rest in a way that will please Krishna.

 

And it is plain to see after reading the purport below that Srila Prabhupada was simply offering a bonafide method of gradual purification to any aspiring Vaisnava, wherein they satisfy the Lord's intimate servant with their sincerety, and make advancement according to their own level of nonsense. Pure mercy.

 

 

SB 5.7.6

All the demigods are different parts of the Lord, and if we offer service to them, we actually serve the Lord Himself. Demigod worship is mentioned in Brahma-samhita, but actually the slokas advocate worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda. For instance, worship of the goddess Durga is mentioned this way in Brahma-samhita (5.44):

srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka

chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga

icchanurupam api yasya ca cestate sa

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

Following the orders of Sri Krsna, the goddess Durga creates, maintains and annihilates. Sri Krsna also confirms this statement in Bhagavad-gita. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram: “This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kunti, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings.” (Bg. 9.10)

We should worship the demigods in that spirit. Because the goddess Durga satisfies Krsna, we should therefore offer respects to goddess Durga. Because Lord Siva is nothing but Krsna’s functional body, we should therefore offer respects to Lord Siva. Similarly, we should offer respects to Brahma, Agni and Surya. There are many offerings to different demigods, and one should always remember that these offerings are usually meant to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[Beggar]

We read all these things in the '70s and never conclued that such ksatriya hunting activity was meant for any of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. The idea was that Srila Prabhupada was training his men to be Vaisnava brahmanas and that they or the next generation or the third generation would expand the Krsna Consiousness Movement on a large scale which would include the varnas. But not that his disciples would hunt and eat flesh, no way. I never saw that in his books and talks then and I do not see it in what you are presenting now. I admit that if taken out of context the whole thing becomes open to debate, but that only out of the proper context. Just like when Srila Prabhupada said that Balavanta Prabhu should be President of the USA, or that if we were pure then we could take over the world in 18 days. If these things came to pass then society would have to be organized through daiva varnasrama dharma. The organizers would be Vaisnavas acting as ksatriyas, but still they would be Gaudiya Vaisnava's - no meat, fish or eggs and the rest of the 4 regs. This is how I read these quotes and how I've read them for the last 4 decades. Personally I would want to ask someone on a high level who is not corrupted by the confusion of ISKCON if I was considering myself a ksatriya and wanted to know if the meat eating thing applied to me as per these quoted instructions.

[bhaktatraveler]

Hare Krsna Beggar

 

Yesterday as well as today we still have in place of Srila Prabhupada's vani a sinister movement. I recognized the DVD instructions day one reading BG. It wasn't untill I came in contact with ISKCON that it was drilled into my head, just like you, that we were not to follow these books as writen.

 

We are all going to be brahman.

 

Didn't happen! Prabhupada says in these conversations that there exists a general fallen condition, so now we would embrace DVD inside ISKCON. Not for outsiders, but amoung our members. Prabhupada says like that, means 4 varnas, 4 asramas...

 

 

SB 8.2.30 purport

 

Our Krishna consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Krishna consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varnasrama—brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, sudra, brahmacarya, grihastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyasa.

 

(end quote)

 

Where is Prabhupada saying 4 regs, He is not saying here. and if we take all the DVD conversations, which there are many more than just 1 or 2 we can see 4 reg in never said. And when asked where Prabhupada says......

 

2/14/77

 

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

(end quote)

 

My God man, are all of you people deaf, dumb and blinded to Srila Prabhupada? A monkey on the street can understand to do inside ISKCON. Introduced in our movement, 4 varnas and 4 asramas as previously discribed. I do not see 4 reg spoken here. Prabhupada forgot? In all the recorded conversations on DVD? No, You missed the point to behave within DVD regs.

 

You do not have to preach this, I will. If someone is to be laughed at, I will take it for you. I will preach, in my name. Go ahead and laugh. I will have the last laugh. 'He who laughs last, laughs best' But I would wish not to laugh at all and just get on with some movement instead of the stagnation we have in America.

 

Another thing is all you big schalars have as of yet to show how I have missunderstood these conversations by using these same conversations as evidence and saying you this is what should be the understanding. No. Why? Because I have it right as said.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[theist]

 

Didn't happen! Prabhupada says in these conversations that there exists a general fallen condition, so now we would embrace DVD inside ISKCON. Not for outsiders, but amoung our members. Prabhupada says like that, means 4 varnas, 4 asramas...

I've asked before but I'll try again. Why don't you direct your efforts to those in iskcon instead of the people on this particular board? This board is much broader than that and I know of no one who lives under the rule of iskcon who posts here.

 

There are iskcon specific boards here at Audarya Fellowship that would be more appropriate for this type of argument.

[mahak]

Show me a reference to your bogus preaching in any of his books, and Ill defeat you by reading before and after the citation and showing how CONTEXT must always be there.

 

Did Prabhupada call you Bhakti raja, or is this something you added? Were you privy to these conversations, or is this printed "prabhupada said" your entire basis of reality. Is a letter not addressed to you so important to you that you sacrifice your life for?

 

No, his books and lectures are his teachings to all, his conversations with specific disciples for specific reasons are specifically designed for the disciples present. If he has told you to go practice your gun trade on innocent animals, do it. But did he tell you to preach it as a bonafide system of his movement? (BTW, where in the world is the animal population so great that they are ruining the environment, other than in the human species. This is the only authority for ksatriyas (or vaisyas, who can shoot much better, by the way) killing of animals.)

 

Your quotes are garbage too, out of context.

 

mahaksadasa

[bhaktatraveler]

I was just on another thread and saw someone say 'I believe' I though about that and have to say I only believe what Prabhupada has said. If I have a thing wrong then I change that belief to suit what is/has been reveiled to me a new. I personally have nothing of my own, it is all Srila Prabhupada's. If I have a thing wrong, it can only be undestood that way by comparison to vani, not speculation. I want hard evidence from all the vani of Guru. If you say a thing and can not back it up why would I surrender to you? No, only Srila Prabhupada can correct me.

 

I saw this same resistance to surrender in a conversation from Hari-sauri...

 

2/14/77

Prabhupada: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varnasrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.

 

Hari-sauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varnasrama is not possible.

 

Prabhupada: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.

 

(end quote)

 

You see Hari-sauri has his own understanding separate from Srila Prabhupada's insistance that DVD be introduced in ISKCON. How could a disciple has a separate understanding? How can any of you? This is the same conversation that Prabhupada says to introduce in ISKCON.....

 

Satsvarupa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brahmana after a year. It’s not very hard. Everyone becomes a brahmana.

 

Prabhupada: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.

 

Hari-sauri: Where will we introduce the varnasrama system, then?

 

Prabhupada: In our society, amongst our members.

 

Hari-sauri: But then if everybody’s being raised to the brahminical platform...

 

Prabhupada: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varnasrama, not everybody brahmana.

 

Hari-sauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...

 

Prabhupada: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they’re falling down.

 

Hari-sauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.

 

Prabhupada: Not necessary. You remain as a kshatriya. You’ll be ha...

 

Hari-sauri: No need for even any brahmana initiation, then...

 

Prabhupada: No, no.

 

Hari-sauri: ...unless one is...

 

Prabhupada: No, brahmana must be there. Why do you say, generalize?

 

Hari-sauri: Unless one is particularly...

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Hari-sauri: ...inclined.

 

Prabhupada: Not that a sudra man is by force become a brahmana. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a sudra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya sam... He’ll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a sudra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a sudra can get perfection provided he does the work of a sudra perfectly.

 

Hari-sauri: For Krishna.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore why a sudra artificially should be a brahmana? Let them, let him remain a sudra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of sudra, he’ll also be as good as a brahmana. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, “Do the work of a leg,” it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.

 

(end quote)

 

The problem is everyone has their own understanding and not what has come from Srila Prabhupada, you were all tricked into being servents of the sinister movement that is opposed to the explanations from Guru's mouth and books. Having your own belief is still keeping a part of your heart separate from surrendering fully to the authority greater than you, Sri Guru. This is the problem, you have not fully surrendered and still have keep something back for yourelf, like Hari-sauri in the above conversation.

 

Or show how I have understood these conversations wrong.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I've asked before but I'll try again. Why don't you direct your efforts to those in iskcon instead of the people on this particular board? This board is much broader than that and I know of no one who lives under the rule of iskcon who posts here.

 

There are iskcon specific boards here at Audarya Fellowship that would be more appropriate for this type of argument.

 

Because DVD is to help everyone practice devotional service and not just ISKCON or Gaudiya devotees.

 

How do you KNOW who posts here? And what about the 99% who read and do not post? What are they chopped liver?

 

CBR