Preliminary Help for Meat eaters

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Show me a reference to your bogus preaching in any of his books, and Ill defeat you by reading before and after the citation and showing how CONTEXT must always be there.

 

Did Prabhupada call you Bhakti raja, or is this something you added? Were you privy to these conversations, or is this printed "prabhupada said" your entire basis of reality. Is a letter not addressed to you so important to you that you sacrifice your life for?

 

No, his books and lectures are his teachings to all, his conversations with specific disciples for specific reasons are specifically designed for the disciples present. If he has told you to go practice your gun trade on innocent animals, do it. But did he tell you to preach it as a bonafide system of his movement? (BTW, where in the world is the animal population so great that they are ruining the environment, other than in the human species. This is the only authority for ksatriyas (or vaisyas, who can shoot much better, by the way) killing of animals.)

 

Your quotes are garbage too, out of context.

 

mahaksadasa

 

Your assumption that conversations with disciples are inadmissable as "teachings to all" and are only relevant to the disciples present is what is bogus.

 

The disciples present were the leaders, who were at that moment AND in the future responsible to convey the instructions given to the rest of the movement, which as we know would include ANY fallen soul who came in earnest from then on.

 

Srila Prabhupada translated the essential scriptures and gave purports.

 

If this was all that was necessary for his society, then why would he ever speak again? No, he speaks we listen and utilize. Bas

 

You say context must always be there, why not include all of the context of how he wanted his movement to proceed? All the statements in his conversations and lectures in which he references what is to be done in his society, you throw out, and say the only context is in his books.

 

You appear to have a very rudimentary understanding of context, logic, and deductive reasoning.

 

If you can't agree that the conversations and lectures are contextual to all questions regarding the guidance of Srila Prabhupada's movement, then we probably will not make sense to one another.

 

Hare Krsna

 

CBR

[brajeshwara das]

It is all very well and good to try and institute daiva-varnashrama dharma as Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada has said, but this insistence on eating meat I feel is a huge leap. Why is the necessity? Srila Swami Maharaj also said 6 months before taking 1st initiation, 6 more months before 2nd. The meat eating may have been for that duration, until they get the intelligence to give it up, take initiation. There just simply isn't any proof that Srila Swami Maharaj authorized meat eating for initiated disciples. I cannot accept someone in the first wave and a preacher of the movement that eats meat. I cannot take them seriously with that perspective. If this concession is for people lacking in intelligence then how can I listen to your preaching?

 

 

I was just on another thread and saw someone say 'I believe' I though about that and have to say I only believe what Prabhupada has said. If I have a thing wrong then I change that belief to suit what is/has been revealed to me a new. I personally have nothing of my own, it is all Srila Prabhupada's. If I have a thing wrong, it can only be understood that way by comparison to vani, not speculation. I want hard evidence from all the vani of Guru. If you say a thing and can not back it up why would I surrender to you? No, only Srila Prabhupada can correct me.

 

The thing is you trust your understanding of Srila Swami Maharaj's instructions. What if you misunderstand? ultimately you are trusting your own mind. This is true for all of us. We should be careful when saying' all I have is coming from my guru' until we have no anarthas that color our vision and our understanding of Guru's orders. Personally I find this kind of statement that of a rascal. Own your own misunderstanding, assume you have misunderstandings, don't pin them on Guru. We should always seek the council of higher Vaisnavas, have you done this on this point?

 

You say that you look for hard evidence but I disagree that the evidence is hard enough to take such a leap to eating meat. Everything else about daiva-varnashrama dharma I can support, but this is a deal-breaker for me. I sincerely feel you don't have permission to do so. You have one quote mentioning meat eating, and one that supports different rules for different varnas. But nothing that says an initiated disciple has different regulations. In a larger krishna-conscious society not everyone may take initiation, at least not immediately. Look at the Indian community's participation in our movement. This is certainly true. Faith needs time to develop and people need to be ready to make that commitment. More evidence exists for my position that initiates follow the four regs and uninitiated community members (not yet officially devotees so truly sudras etc) have some leeway until initiation.

 

Anyhow, if you don't eat meat and don't preach eating meat you are in a safe position and not at risk of misconstruing Srila Swami Maharaj's orders. Go ahead and preach daiva-varnashrama dharma, along with uninitiated sudras eating meat on every dark-moon night, as long as it was hunted by them among a population of animals causing mischief (that's the rules, right?) I have no issue with that. If you are successful and can get former Burger King customers to accept some higher position then how could that not be a good thing?

 

If you do preach initiated disciples can eat meat and you are wrong, then not only your spiritual life has been harmed but also those that follow you will be affected. Are you absolutely, completely sure that you understand Srila Swami Maharaj's will on this? Are you sure you are sure?

[mahak]

I reallky dont have problems with killing. We had dog packs attacking cows, and our ruger mini-14s were loaded and ready for such an encounter, but we were not about to eat the dogs. Same goes for a vaisnava policeman who may have to shoot a cougar, wolf, or other animal who is a THREAT to those who insist that the policeman protect them. This is VAD duty, for the vaisya and ksatriya. The only reference that Srila Prabhupada gives for eating meat is that when there are no other foodstuffs availablke to keep the body alive. When he gave this particular lecture that I was fortunate to attend, he also quipped that in such a case, why not eat what has sustained the animal.

 

Srila Prabhupada speaks of the ksatriya era, the events that led up to kuruksetra. In such teachings, he notes that the movement of the ksatriyas produced a burden on the world so great that Krsna personally comes to vanquish them all, both good and bad. His business was the killing, and he made Arjuna his devoted instrument of this operation, and even great kings, mahabhagavatas like Bhisma, were vanquished. And whe3n that was over, Krsna arranged for all the kings of his own Yadu dynasty, king Urgasena and others qwho came specifically to engage in transcendental pastimes with Sri Krsna, to be vanquished as well. Thus ends the age of ksatriyas.

 

In kali yuga, everyone is sudra. This idea of offering meat to Kali once a month is not part of Srila Prabhupadas teachings at all. Such worship of demigods is verily condemned by Srila Prabhupada, as well as spoken of as foolish by Krsna in the Bhagavad Gita.

 

Unfortunately, there is a great number of revisionists who claim to follow Srila Prabhupada. Their revisionism is a misrepresentation of Srila Prabhupada, and has brought about entirely changed philosophy, never based on his books and lectures but rather business memoes to those who were supposed to manage his preaching apparatus, ISKCON. These folks have actually made a MAN-MADE religion based on such letters, informal discussions. They have devised an entirely changed philosophy which disregards the necessity of aPProaching a bonafide spiritual master for initiation, which disregards the YUGA DHARMA in favor of a practice that has ceased to exist thanks to Krsna who destroyed the ksatriyas, Lord Parasurama who destroyed the brahmanas, etc.

 

There is no harm in TRYING to mold a micro-society to fully implement VAD. I am witness to success of such micro endeavors. But when one decides to force this VAD on kali yuga society, this is fascist nonsense, this was Hitlers great plan. I have noticed that all who take up this discussion, this religion of VAD, are always calling themselves ksatriyas, meaning their is a strong desire for them personally to control and dominate those they consider less than themselves. This also is a great perversion of Srila Prabhupadas teachings that we should truelu develop the consciousness that we are less than sudra, that we are less than straw in the street. These rascals are no different than those who became sanyassis so they could have young boys serve their every perverted need to dominate others.

 

I see this VAD nonsense as a normal following of those who have made a RELIGION of a word never used by Srila Prabhupada in his books or in his lectures, and only recorded as a response to ambitious disciples again wanting to be named as masters of a society so they could dominate the lower classes in that society. I have always stated that rtvik is the other side of the same coin that gave us appointed acaryas, zonal acaryas, and the whole eccliastic religion that too many disciples of Srila Prabhupada embrace. As Srila Prabhupada stated at the last stage of his appearance, 35 days before passing, he has given them everything THEY asked for. They wanted power, so they got ISKCON. But Srila Prabhupada, if he is REALLY ACCEPTED as ones guru, should be the one who gets everything HE wants from the disciple. That we become happily engaged in Krsna Conscious activities of hearing and chanting Krsnas Name, remembering Him always, etc. This is the teachings he has left us with, his books. But if one cites his books as a source for their point, even in full context, these nonsense revisionists will come up with some nonsense that what he said in 1977 overrides any information contained in his books, even though the authenticity of these statements are questionable because of omission, censoring, editing, etc.. I have had respectable rtvik-vadis tell me this, citing that what Srila Prabhupada says to do, one must do, even if he is telling a specific disciple a specific thing to do, these rascals insist this is better than his books and lectures.

 

Rascals, and they can prove it. Srtila Prabhupada says "Chant Hare Krsna and your life will be sublime". But these folks are full of anxiety, very disturbed, and the only thing they love to chant is the latest gossip about a sanyassi who has taken a wife. They are never on forums that glorify Krsna (or Srila Prabhupada for that matter). If they do go on, they just create disturbance by deriding those who are sharing their realizations and spamming with their kali yuga religion, something, BTW, that krsna tells arjuna to abandon all varieties of.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

The only reference that Srila Prabhupada gives for eating meat is that when there are no other foodstuffs availablke to keep the body alive. When he gave this particular lecture that I was fortunate to attend, he also quipped that in such a case, why not eat what has sustained the animal.

 

 

Just amazing you could say this on the same thread that you have participated in from early on where more than one reference given by Srila Prabhupada for meat eating were posted. And as usual you just expect whoever is listening to take your word for it, and do not site the particular lecture to provide an avenue of confirmation.

 

So lazy and uninviting to imagine reading the rest of your recapitulation of yesterday's misunderstandings of the only spiritual authority you are going to get in this lifetime, he was the one sent for dumb @33es like me an you and if we don't get him, we certainly won't get each other, or have much worth sharing anyway, transcendentally that is.

 

Its never too late.

 

Jaya Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

 

It is all very well and good to try and institute daiva-varnashrama dharma as Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada has said, but this insistence on eating meat I feel is a huge leap. Why is the necessity? Srila Swami Maharaj also said 6 months before taking 1st initiation, 6 more months before 2nd. The meat eating may have been for that duration, until they get the intelligence to give it up, take initiation. There just simply isn't any proof that Srila Swami Maharaj authorized meat eating for initiated disciples. I cannot accept someone in the first wave and a preacher of the movement that eats meat. I cannot take them seriously with that perspective. If this concession is for people lacking in intelligence then how can I listen to your preaching?

 

 

 

The thing is you trust your understanding of Srila Swami Maharaj's instructions. What if you misunderstand? ultimately you are trusting your own mind. This is true for all of us. We should be careful when saying' all I have is coming from my guru' until we have no anarthas that color our vision and our understanding of Guru's orders. Personally I find this kind of statement that of a rascal. Own your own misunderstanding, assume you have misunderstandings, don't pin them on Guru. We should always seek the council of higher Vaisnavas, have you done this on this point?

 

You say that you look for hard evidence but I disagree that the evidence is hard enough to take such a leap to eating meat. Everything else about daiva-varnashrama dharma I can support, but this is a deal-breaker for me. I sincerely feel you don't have permission to do so. You have one quote mentioning meat eating, and one that supports different rules for different varnas. But nothing that says an initiated disciple has different regulations. In a larger krishna-conscious society not everyone may take initiation, at least not immediately. Look at the Indian community's participation in our movement. This is certainly true. Faith needs time to develop and people need to be ready to make that commitment. More evidence exists for my position that initiates follow the four regs and uninitiated community members (not yet officially devotees so truly sudras etc) have some leeway until initiation.

 

Anyhow, if you don't eat meat and don't preach eating meat you are in a safe position and not at risk of misconstruing Srila Swami Maharaj's orders. Go ahead and preach daiva-varnashrama dharma, along with uninitiated sudras eating meat on every dark-moon night, as long as it was hunted by them among a population of animals causing mischief (that's the rules, right?) I have no issue with that. If you are successful and can get former Burger King customers to accept some higher position then how could that not be a good thing?

 

If you do preach initiated disciples can eat meat and you are wrong, then not only your spiritual life has been harmed but also those that follow you will be affected. Are you absolutely, completely sure that you understand Srila Swami Maharaj's will on this? Are you sure you are sure?

 

Your lack of understanding of the concept of initiation as used by Srila Prabhupada is leading to your sectarian perspective. That is ok, we are beginners and this is to be expected but recognized and dealt with.

 

If you are truly seeking to be effective in evangelising the disciples of a great Acharya of the Stature of my Srila Prabhupada, and not risk simply wasting their time and draining them of enthusiasm...

 

You should first understand that he gave comprehensive and complete instructions to his disciples from cradle to the Spiritual World.

 

And then, unless you are fluently knowledgable in the language and context in which this Acharya adjusted the Vaidhi Bhakti sadhana offered to his disciples according to time place and circumstance, have practiced those instructions, including the fatherly hand holding which became rules in his institution, especially his pointedly liberal and mercifully broad policy on "initiation"...

 

You guessed it. Probably jumping the gun.

 

That is ok, we are beginners and we are expected to do this, and also expected to recognize such flawed efforts and remedy the core disease so as not to continue the symptom.

 

1972 Bhagavad Gita As it is Macmillan Edition unabridged.

Srimad Bhagavatam Cantos 1-10

 

And to comment on his broad range of Directives regarding his International Society, anything not specifically covered in the above 2 classics you will find in the 33 Volume "Conversations" Books which cover all conversations and morning walks and I believe some lectures.

 

Oh, and it might be fun to make friends with those who have already done this, or who actually served him personally and read the above mentioned on top of that to share realizations along the way.

 

Hare Krsna