Time to Get Real

[Guest guest]

Chakra Discussions:

Time to Get Real

by name withheld by request

Posted March 11, 2007

The Guru system is totally outdated and probably only worked well when life was simpler and people did not get proper care in general in life, so they could be taken care of by their Guru at least to that previous old time sub-standard of living they maintained while diving wholeheartedly into their Bhakti Yoga practice. This is not longer a valid situation as modern society has uncovered so many human needs that simply went unfulfilled in the past.

I know of no ISKCON Guru that is truly looking out for their disciples up to the modern standard. There is not even a universal health care program for aging devotees, many of whom are suffering from the years of all cooked, fries and sugar diet as well as Guru's neglect of the bodily and psychological health of their disciples.

Also it is truly ridiculous to present that 5000 years ago people were so smart and now we are so stupid. Frankly, that is stupid! The Egyptians were doing their thing 5000 years ago, we know how they lived and it was terrible! Also there are still people living the same today as they did 5000 years ago and their standard of living is unnacceptable to today's society.

If people were really so smart in the old days that they didn't have to write things down, how come there are no pictures drawn with perspective until about 1440. They lived for 100,000 year life spans with worldwide civilizations that lasted for millions of years but in all that time they couldn't learn to draw?

I always picture some guy walking his donkey in the Himalayan mountains and he pulls back some brush which exposes a cave door and upon entering the cave voila! Here are all the partying ancient Yogis! Wow, they look great for being thousands of years old and getting no sun at all! That 3000 year old guy doesn't look a day over 2,990. :-)

Let's face it, as we gather confirmable factual information at blinding speed, these silly ideas are going to make it more and more difficult for the movement to be effective. Most ISKCON leaders do not believe the vedas should be taken literally, but still they try to lump it in with basic universal truths while they know full well that the sun does not revolve around the earth! This astounding fact indicates that one can find the most materailistic people as most of the religious leaderships in the world. To them, they are scaring people with the Pillsbury dough boy and to me that is the most materialistic that one can be.

I have contacted most of the preachers in ISKCON U.S. and ultimately they present a "take it or leave it" mentality because they either do not care if it is true or not, or again, they do not believe it themselves. The Guru system breeds an elitest mentality and a system of "authority rules" and the Guru system is also very militaristic.

Let's face it, on so many levels we are all connected so if you cannot save everyone, then how can you save yourself?

Frankly it is about time that devotees humble ourselves to the public, and ask why do we try to accept things that are simply not true, when we could easily update and then take the many wonderful blessings of Bhakti Yoga and truly help people from their perspective as well as a true perspective?

Even Bhaktivinode Thakur said that the Vedas are allegorical, so what? The "what" is that we lose our position of "authority" if we insist they are literal. It is a false position because it can only be accepted by very sincere and/or incredibly ill informed and/or uneducated people.

The senses are more than adequate to navigate ourselves through this existence and Yogis go by their senses too. For something to be "absolutely" true, then it should also be confirmed by the outer as well as the inner self. The only thing that is specific to KC that is true to our basic society standard of truth that we all live by, like it or not, is that chanting lowers stress and that is based on Harvard studies. Other than that, what does KC have to offer that is not a fantastic untrue idea attached to a universal truth?

Free veggie food with prayer is the most amazing preaching and promo tool of ISKCON but unfortunately most Temples now charge money for prasadam and some even charge for chanting sessions. Face it, Guru is a business and except for Radanath Swami, who sleeps in the Temple room and a few others. Business is thriving and we have no idea what they do behind closed doors, nor will we ever know. Many Gurus sit around in private talking about diciples in terms of income. If you get 10,000 diciples and each one gives you an average of $100 per year, then you have a great Yogi job that pays $1,000,000. per year with all kinds of perks, like servants, transportation, room and board and again, they can do what they want behind closed doors. Many ISKCON Guru's "cash out" with a wonderful retrement and others just keep enjoying the fruits of their business.

A really easy way to test this is to get your philosophy together, which they discourage as "speculating", and challenge them with confirmed truth. You will quickly see what I mean and that is without all the eye witness acounts and documented cases. So if ISKCON wants to even slightly approach the former glory made possible by the "love "generation, then we must stop being "museum" curators, "historical re-enactment sociteies" and get out there and feed people and realize that they are all devotees. If they are not, then we are not either. Make your choice, save everyone and yourself, or stay into the elitist club of people who are "in" with the spiritual crowd and leave everyone else here to rot.

It is so easy to "humble" ourselves to each other in a system where you move up in the ranks like the army. What is truly humble though, is to go out and help people from their immediate perspective and also in a way that is lasting too. It's easy to preach to people who give you money and also agree with you. Actually most people do not agree, they just won't admit it. ISKCON's idea is that the world is not "up to spec" and God could easily fix it with a simple glance but He doesn't because we are less than perfect and therefore do not deserve it. Even though our memories are taken away along with our knowledge, and we live in a situation of duress where each breath kills millions of entities, still ISKCON presents an idea of karma as punishment and that idea not only does not add up, but it is also a very unhealthy mind set. To add insult to injury, Iskcon presents that God does not even afford us the basic rights people receive from a run of the mill mundane county court.

ISKCON philosophy is that if God wants to be abusive then it is OK becasue He is supreme. No wonder there is still so much abuse and practically all the leaders are implicated in cover ups of abuse. "You are what you believe". If you believe that God is a monster who would torture His own children then you will treat people accordingly.

Most ISKCON devotees are into a "save yourself" mind set and they are in a sense sitting this life out in hopes of getting a better one. Is this really accepting God or rejecting God? What if this is simply the best that God can do? Why must the problems of this creation be blamed on us?

God's authority is not just in some books that ancient students of theistic science wrote, it is in the reality of God's own creation. For example, God made it so that only humans, apes, and dolphins are able to have sex outside of procreation. So God's authority is above the ISKCON idea that we should only have sex for procreation. It is a proven fact, as our surgeon general reiterates that sex is extremely healthy on many levels. If devotees want a realistic principle that we can actually follow, how about no "exploitative sex"? I got so tired of hearing that if one wants to have sex then they will be turned into a pigeon so they can have sex 70 times a day. This is complete ignorance as pigeons do not have sex 70 times a day. They bring food to the nest up to 70 times a day during certain cycles, but they can only have sex during specific times, and that sex is only for procreation and it is not as complex or gratifying as human relations.

This idea also presents God as a monster because God obviously realizes that the person desired "human" sex and not pigeon sex. ISKCON seems to suggest that God is looking for any excuse to mess with us, that is, unless we are "endorsed" by ISKCON reps. Of course, the reps can take some of the work load off of God, give Him a break, and mess with us for Him. That is like dovetaliling our God complex in Krishna's service. :-)

Yogis say that kids are like animals and truly Yogis walk a very thin tightrope when they present the idea that some humans are on the "human" platform and others are on the "animal" platform. This is the basis of racism and the KKK. The KKK believes that blacks are a form of monkey and therefore animals. Devotees think monkeys are a species of human. Interesting correlation..... no wonder there is so much racism, male chauvenism, war glorifying, and tons of socialy outdated and negative concepts with ISKCON presentation. Also ISKCON shows it's ancient ignorance here because the true definition of species is based on breeding and humans cannot breed with apes.

ISKCON comes back with this amazing conspiracy theory that God is also in the dis-information business as he will leave dinosaur bones to allow us to be in illusion about the truth of the Vedas and God makes the layers of ice "seem" like there were ice ages, but that is only to throw off the Godless atheistic scientists. In the meantime, had not the scientists, many of whom gave their lives and were mercilessly killed by the Churches in the old days, found out how to heal people through confirmable knowledge, most of us would not be alive today!

So truly if ISKCON could let go of its "authority rules" mind set and inspire people to turn to God by truly helping them with unconditional love and devotion to the modern standard, a standard that more closley fits the realities that we all live by, then we would have something special indeed.

I used to make tons of devotees, now I must constantly define my "self evident unconditional love platform" as absolutely non-religious. ISKCON took me part of the way, now it can only hold me back, unless enough of the leaders miraculously decide to "get real".

[Guest guest]

 

Most ISKCON devotees are into a "save yourself" mind set and they are in a sense sitting this life out in hopes of getting a better one

 

This attitude towards life is found in other religious groups too. This is a very important thing to ponder over. Unfortunately, most of these people did not have normal lives (child abuse, drugs, failed relationships, broken dreams) which makes them lose interest in the present and look forward to a more interesting and painless future afterlife. They see it is as a release from their present state of pain or boredom. After all, if your life today is exciting, if you are passionate about your work, family and friends and have no time to get bored, then you would never think or hanker after something better. Life today is as good as it gets.

 

But do the people who are sitting out this life waiting for the next, have a choice? Can they give up this waiting and focus on being happy now than waiting to being happy after death? Not everyone may be able to do this as some may have insurmountable problems. But if that is not the case, then people should at the very least make an attempt to focus their attention on life as it is today than spending their time dreaming about an unknown future.

[Guest guest]

"Most ISKCON devotees are into a "save yourself" mind set and they are in a sense sitting this life out in hopes of getting a better one. Is this really accepting God or rejecting God? What if this is simply the best that God can do? Why must the problems of this creation be blamed on us?

God's authority is not just in some books that ancient students of theistic science wrote, it is in the reality of God's own creation. For example, God made it so that only humans, apes, and dolphins are able to have sex outside of procreation. So God's authority is above the ISKCON idea that we should only have sex for procreation. It is a proven fact, as our surgeon general reiterates that sex is extremely healthy on many levels. If devotees want a realistic principle that we can actually follow, how about no "exploitative sex"? I got so tired of hearing that if one wants to have sex then they will be turned into a pigeon so they can have sex 70 times a day. This is complete ignorance as pigeons do not have sex 70 times a day. They bring food to the nest up to 70 times a day during certain cycles, but they can only have sex during specific times, and that sex is only for procreation and it is not as complex or gratifying as human relations. "

 

The senses and the sense impressions are only of a limited reality. Even science tells us this. So to say what is true or false in a far more expansive reality is truly up for debate. Even scientists don't know for sure if this is all there is to life however, most don't think it is. Thus the reasons for the holographic theory of the universe and the idea of the universe's nature as being akin to fractals.

 

As for the abstention of sex, yes, there are mystical reasons why abstention of sex is necessary or at the very least MODERATION of it. Gopi Krishna, a common man who experienced enlightenment one day also attested to this, though he did not advocate abstention, instead just moderation. The vedic rishis often were married and had children so it surely wasn't against the norms of spiritual practitioners to have sex and lead married lives, or to even engage themselves in public service. As for whether people were stupid back then, that again is a rather subjective evaluation based on current norms of society. If nobody truly knows how to evaluate intelligence in this day and age, how can one truly evaluate the intelligence of prior civilizations? Brain size and structure has changed throughout history, whether for better or worse is up for debate. I don't believe evolution is NECESSARILY a linear progression, though it's a natural assumption to make and one that seems to be supported by some evidence of fossil records.

 

There is quite a bit of debate on the validity of mystical experiences, yet most people don't know much about these debates, as they are often held in between intellectuals of the communities of psychologists, spiritualists, scientists, doctors, etc. Many have come to believe in its validity, while many still don't, it's really a matter of taking a stance on what is essentially a very "gray" area, and following through with those beliefs. That's what many ISKCON members do because faith and devotion is a key aspect on the road to enlightenment in this path. Conviction is a priority, regardless of the apparent hypocrisies within the system. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are definitely issues that need to be addressed within any system of religion that involves a guru or spiritual leader, but it's also important to preserve what's important to the members of that system in order to help them achieve their goals, whatever they may be. There are those who are running away from life, there are those who seek to perfect themselves so they can confront life head-on, there are people of all types who seek Krishna or God for all different reasons. What matters is that God called to them in their hearts, and they've answered the call. What matters is trying to nurture that sentiment while perhaps helping them become integrated in society in a way that's compatible to them and the world at large.

[brajeshwara das]

I'm not in ISKCON so I don't know what you guys are taught or believe beyond what Srila Swami Maharaj Prabhupada has given in his books, and I don't claim to have comprehensive knowledge of those. But it seems to me that you are approaching this all from a very materialistic perspective. Scripture is transcendental to material conceptions. So when we look at transcendental literature to describe the physical world based on mundane understandings, we'll find inaccuracies. I take what Bhaktivinod Thakur said to heart; from a material perspactive sastra can be seen as allegorical. We look at them from material vision. But each and every thing in them can be twisted to be misunderstood from our materialistic mind. From a transcendental perspective we should see them as precise, that the personalities they describe do exist in consciousness. We should have that kind of faith.

 

My understanding is that everything exists in consciousness first, then the material manifestation is created by the jivas that choose a sepparate agenda from the Lord. I think to step, then I step. Thus we create our bodies and our world based on our consciousness. Srila Sridhar Maharaj said we have to admit there is truth in Darwin's theory of evolution, but that it doesn't consider the evolution of consciousness as what drives the material manifestation. I personally haven't heard many arguments against dinosaurs but Srila Sridhar Maharaj's teachings to me harmonize the bones we find in the earth with the evolution of consciousness. At one point the Jiva souls on Earth had the consciousness of these huge ferocious beasts. At another point the Jivas had the consciousness to create Vedic civilization and maintain great memories, mystic powers, mantras that could control material elements. I believe this is possible depending on consciousness. Now we can see even in my lifetime the devolution of consciousness in common man. We extend our capacity outside of ourselves. When I was a small kid I could remember all the phone numbers for my family and friends, maybe 100 total. Now with a cell phone that automatically memorized everyone I call, I can barely remember my own number. So in Kali Yuga my memory is getting worse even in one lifetime! Also time is relative, I used to have much more time when I didn't work 50 hours per week plus all the demands the modern world has on me, that I had much more time for reading and spiritual contemplation. Everyone all over the world is spending more and more time working and all cultures are being degraded. We have pop culture taking over with snippets of useless information as our news and lifestyle. So I see this as 'shorter lifetimes' that makes the old religious practices unsuitable in this modern age. Time is relative. All things are relative. The Mahamantra is our salvation because it is actually practicable in this age.

 

So the problem is we are approaching the scriptures from a mundane perspective and trying to have them serve us. We need to be properly adjusted to know the scriptures aren't mundane and we aren't looking for mundane help from Them nor are we wishing Them to serve us.

 

God is not a democrat, He is an autocrat, He does what He pleases and the authority rules you wish to avoid that teach He is master, we are servant is why we are here in the first place. If you don't respect the authority within ISKCON I can't blame you, but the authority of Guru Shastra Sadhu is the system to bring relief to the suffering souls. If you sincerly follow you will become a sadhu too and you will be bringing the relief yourself. We are taught we should wish to serve God in whatever capacity He wants, wherever He wants and that the devotees are not seeking liberation, so anyone wanting to 'save themself' as the goal are still looking for material relief. That most 'devotees' have this as their goal even if they are trying to follow isn't surprising, we are all mental patients in a ward and want to get better. Getting out of the hospital seems like the sure sign of good health. But I don't think you have to physically get out of the 'material world' to get out, it all exists in consciousness and if we are truly in the service mood unalloyed with material self interest and exploitation, we can happily serve here no problem. Srila Swami Maharaj said that if someone is really following then they are happy, if they are miserable and just 'waiting it out' to get a better birth then you know they aren't following correctly. I believe he calls them 'rascals'.

 

Anyway, 'getting real' to me means harmonizing and truly understanding Guru, Sastra and Sadhu, not rejecting what we, unrealized materialistic souls, think is 'inaccurate'. Reality is Krishna. If we don't have the association that is leading us in that direction, then we should search for it at all costs.

[Guest guest]

"Time to Get Real

by name withheld by request"

 

The anonymous author makes some good points about the motives of many of the "gurus" and the lack of devotee health care. But then he goes on and exposes himself as someone who no longer believes in Srila Prabhupada as a maha-bhagavata. Frankly, I've heard this kind of spiel before coming from those who have defected to the babaji camp. The sex/pigeon thing is a dead giveaway, as is depiction of life in Dwapara Yuga, as well as the lack of faith in the accuracy of Srimad Bhagavatam.

[brajeshwara das]

 

"Time to Get Real

by name withheld by request"

 

The anonymous author makes some good points about the motives of many of the "gurus" and the lack of devotee health care.

 

I actually had thought about this as a service after I left the bramachari ashram. Maybe a non-profit organization set up to buy health care for devotees could be done, but how to handle premiums etc from persons with no income, and internationally? If the non-profit were set up correctly though it would be a huge service. Maybe even generate income for the devotees running it, with a limit at some sane level so it wouldn't be abused. You would need regular contributions, maybe sponsorships of devotees by grhastas? Hmm...

[brajeshwara das]

 

I actually had thought about this as a service after I left the bramachari ashram. Maybe a non-profit organization set up to buy health care for devotees could be done, but how to handle premiums etc from persons with no income, and internationally? If the non-profit were set up correctly though it would be a huge service. Maybe even generate income for the devotees running it, with a limit at some sane level so it wouldn't be abused. You would need regular contributions, maybe sponsorships of devotees by grhastas? Hmm...

 

I was just thinking about this some more, and I'm feeling this: when I see that the floor in the temple needs to be swept, do I complain to the temple staff that they really should get someone to come over and sweep this up or do I take this as Krishna's mercy that I have been offered some service and I should look for a broom? It really is all about consciousness.

[Guest guest]

 

as well as the lack of faith in the accuracy of Srimad Bhagavatam...

... or probably lack of faith in the point of view from which it is purported? I've also heard that some mroe shlokas have been added later on.

[Guest guest]

 

Chakra Discussions:

Time to Get Real

by name withheld by request

Posted March 11, 2007...........................................

..................

 

... Few dare to come out with this sort of view under the overall goody good layer of a religious organization and its policies. Many even though feel these things rampant, are scared away by the 'offences' scare crow. Iskcon did much good introducing bhakti and devotion to the west though.

[Guest guest]

Isn't this thread transparent? Isn't the original poster simply veda bashing? And even though, Y.K., tou take advantage of him presenting a negative case against ISKCON, (and the Vaisnava tradition) by taking a shot of your own, shouldn't you appreciate the seriousness of what he implies? I see "ISKCON" this and "ISKCON" that, the reality is that the object of dislike is the knowledge of the vedas, which is most certainly real knowledge. The mood of the author is jaded and confused; the whole post reveals his (or her) deep unresolved resentment, which unfortunately for this person does not help his or her spiritual advancement one bit. This person wants to be a rebel...so what can we do?? Let's just see this post for what it is, desperation!

 

Hari Bol!

[Guest guest]

 

Isn't this thread transparent? Isn't the original poster simply veda bashing? And even though, Y.K., tou take advantage of him presenting a negative case against ISKCON, (and the Vaisnava tradition) by taking a shot of your own, shouldn't you appreciate the seriousness of what he implies? I see "ISKCON" this and "ISKCON" that, the reality is that the object of dislike is the knowledge of the vedas, which is most certainly real knowledge. The mood of the author is jaded and confused; the whole post reveals his (or her) deep unresolved resentment, which unfortunately for this person does not help his or her spiritual advancement one bit. This person wants to be a rebel...so what can we do?? Let's just see this post for what it is, desperation!

Hari Bol!

Yes the thread is transparent indeed. Since when did Iskcon start being a representative of the Vedas??? Do you even read the Vedas? How many times do you quote from Yagurved and Rigved? Or is there a Samved at all? Just another attempt to use the Veda/Vedic word for own survival. Iskcon bashing is definitely not Vedas bashing!! This is a cheap trick to drum up support in the name of Vedas and Krishna. This is not so much of Iskcon bashing either so much so as it is a concern about the much needed reforms in the policies of a religious organizational body by a person who has given out a large chunk of his life, energies and efforts to it, probably getting belittlement and neglect in return.

These are the words of an insider! Yes they do reflect desperation and disturbance. And if this is what he got there, then it is disturbing. What would you do if you gave many many years of your life to an organization only to feel later as wasted? Just by saying HariBol you don't advance spiritually. And you don't fall spiritually if you address problems of a society. Its not a negative case against Vaishnava tradition. Iskcon policies and philosophies for one do not necessarily agree with the other Vaishnava traditions. And two, there is constant contradiction. This is the reality. There is contradiction in many things that the philosophy preaches. It is judgemental and can be considered even radical since it does not accept much of any other school of thought. But believes in confronting it. So as the thread reads time to get real and realize what's going wrong and clean up the mess. Its not as much of a bashing.

Won't it be better if the insiders did the disciplining rather than the courts doing it?

[theist]

I found some very good points in the article but also found it very mixed with some misconceptions. A mixed review. However it would be usefull as with anything to explore the positive points while letting other things alone.

 

The absolutely literal acceptance of every story in the Bhagavatam should be reexamined IMO.

[Guest guest]

"I know of no ISKCON Guru that is truly looking out for their disciples up to the modern standard." That is his problem if he doesn't know one.

 

 

Chakra Discussions:

Time to Get Real

by name withheld by request

Posted March 11, 2007

The Guru system is totally outdated and probably only worked well when life was simpler and people did not get proper care in general in life, so they could be taken care of by their Guru at least to that previous old time sub-standard of living they maintained while diving wholeheartedly into their Bhakti Yoga practice. This is not longer a valid situation as modern society has uncovered so many human needs that simply went unfulfilled in the past.

I know of no ISKCON Guru that is truly looking out for their disciples up to the modern standard. There is not even a universal health care program for aging devotees, many of whom are suffering from the years of all cooked, fries and sugar diet as well as Guru's neglect of the bodily and psychological health of their disciples.

Also it is truly ridiculous to present that 5000 years ago people were so smart and now we are so stupid. Frankly, that is stupid! The Egyptians were doing their thing 5000 years ago, we know how they lived and it was terrible! Also there are still people living the same today as they did 5000 years ago and their standard of living is unnacceptable to today's society.

If people were really so smart in the old days that they didn't have to write things down, how come there are no pictures drawn with perspective until about 1440. They lived for 100,000 year life spans with worldwide civilizations that lasted for millions of years but in all that time they couldn't learn to draw?

I always picture some guy walking his donkey in the Himalayan mountains and he pulls back some brush which exposes a cave door and upon entering the cave voila! Here are all the partying ancient Yogis! Wow, they look great for being thousands of years old and getting no sun at all! That 3000 year old guy doesn't look a day over 2,990. :-)

Let's face it, as we gather confirmable factual information at blinding speed, these silly ideas are going to make it more and more difficult for the movement to be effective. Most ISKCON leaders do not believe the vedas should be taken literally, but still they try to lump it in with basic universal truths while they know full well that the sun does not revolve around the earth! This astounding fact indicates that one can find the most materailistic people as most of the religious leaderships in the world. To them, they are scaring people with the Pillsbury dough boy and to me that is the most materialistic that one can be.

I have contacted most of the preachers in ISKCON U.S. and ultimately they present a "take it or leave it" mentality because they either do not care if it is true or not, or again, they do not believe it themselves. The Guru system breeds an elitest mentality and a system of "authority rules" and the Guru system is also very militaristic.

Let's face it, on so many levels we are all connected so if you cannot save everyone, then how can you save yourself?

Frankly it is about time that devotees humble ourselves to the public, and ask why do we try to accept things that are simply not true, when we could easily update and then take the many wonderful blessings of Bhakti Yoga and truly help people from their perspective as well as a true perspective?

Even Bhaktivinode Thakur said that the Vedas are allegorical, so what? The "what" is that we lose our position of "authority" if we insist they are literal. It is a false position because it can only be accepted by very sincere and/or incredibly ill informed and/or uneducated people.

The senses are more than adequate to navigate ourselves through this existence and Yogis go by their senses too. For something to be "absolutely" true, then it should also be confirmed by the outer as well as the inner self. The only thing that is specific to KC that is true to our basic society standard of truth that we all live by, like it or not, is that chanting lowers stress and that is based on Harvard studies. Other than that, what does KC have to offer that is not a fantastic untrue idea attached to a universal truth?

Free veggie food with prayer is the most amazing preaching and promo tool of ISKCON but unfortunately most Temples now charge money for prasadam and some even charge for chanting sessions. Face it, Guru is a business and except for Radanath Swami, who sleeps in the Temple room and a few others. Business is thriving and we have no idea what they do behind closed doors, nor will we ever know. Many Gurus sit around in private talking about diciples in terms of income. If you get 10,000 diciples and each one gives you an average of $100 per year, then you have a great Yogi job that pays $1,000,000. per year with all kinds of perks, like servants, transportation, room and board and again, they can do what they want behind closed doors. Many ISKCON Guru's "cash out" with a wonderful retrement and others just keep enjoying the fruits of their business.

A really easy way to test this is to get your philosophy together, which they discourage as "speculating", and challenge them with confirmed truth. You will quickly see what I mean and that is without all the eye witness acounts and documented cases. So if ISKCON wants to even slightly approach the former glory made possible by the "love "generation, then we must stop being "museum" curators, "historical re-enactment sociteies" and get out there and feed people and realize that they are all devotees. If they are not, then we are not either. Make your choice, save everyone and yourself, or stay into the elitist club of people who are "in" with the spiritual crowd and leave everyone else here to rot.

It is so easy to "humble" ourselves to each other in a system where you move up in the ranks like the army. What is truly humble though, is to go out and help people from their immediate perspective and also in a way that is lasting too. It's easy to preach to people who give you money and also agree with you. Actually most people do not agree, they just won't admit it. ISKCON's idea is that the world is not "up to spec" and God could easily fix it with a simple glance but He doesn't because we are less than perfect and therefore do not deserve it. Even though our memories are taken away along with our knowledge, and we live in a situation of duress where each breath kills millions of entities, still ISKCON presents an idea of karma as punishment and that idea not only does not add up, but it is also a very unhealthy mind set. To add insult to injury, Iskcon presents that God does not even afford us the basic rights people receive from a run of the mill mundane county court.

ISKCON philosophy is that if God wants to be abusive then it is OK becasue He is supreme. No wonder there is still so much abuse and practically all the leaders are implicated in cover ups of abuse. "You are what you believe". If you believe that God is a monster who would torture His own children then you will treat people accordingly.

Most ISKCON devotees are into a "save yourself" mind set and they are in a sense sitting this life out in hopes of getting a better one. Is this really accepting God or rejecting God? What if this is simply the best that God can do? Why must the problems of this creation be blamed on us?

God's authority is not just in some books that ancient students of theistic science wrote, it is in the reality of God's own creation. For example, God made it so that only humans, apes, and dolphins are able to have sex outside of procreation. So God's authority is above the ISKCON idea that we should only have sex for procreation. It is a proven fact, as our surgeon general reiterates that sex is extremely healthy on many levels. If devotees want a realistic principle that we can actually follow, how about no "exploitative sex"? I got so tired of hearing that if one wants to have sex then they will be turned into a pigeon so they can have sex 70 times a day. This is complete ignorance as pigeons do not have sex 70 times a day. They bring food to the nest up to 70 times a day during certain cycles, but they can only have sex during specific times, and that sex is only for procreation and it is not as complex or gratifying as human relations.

This idea also presents God as a monster because God obviously realizes that the person desired "human" sex and not pigeon sex. ISKCON seems to suggest that God is looking for any excuse to mess with us, that is, unless we are "endorsed" by ISKCON reps. Of course, the reps can take some of the work load off of God, give Him a break, and mess with us for Him. That is like dovetaliling our God complex in Krishna's service. :-)

Yogis say that kids are like animals and truly Yogis walk a very thin tightrope when they present the idea that some humans are on the "human" platform and others are on the "animal" platform. This is the basis of racism and the KKK. The KKK believes that blacks are a form of monkey and therefore animals. Devotees think monkeys are a species of human. Interesting correlation..... no wonder there is so much racism, male chauvenism, war glorifying, and tons of socialy outdated and negative concepts with ISKCON presentation. Also ISKCON shows it's ancient ignorance here because the true definition of species is based on breeding and humans cannot breed with apes.

ISKCON comes back with this amazing conspiracy theory that God is also in the dis-information business as he will leave dinosaur bones to allow us to be in illusion about the truth of the Vedas and God makes the layers of ice "seem" like there were ice ages, but that is only to throw off the Godless atheistic scientists. In the meantime, had not the scientists, many of whom gave their lives and were mercilessly killed by the Churches in the old days, found out how to heal people through confirmable knowledge, most of us would not be alive today!

So truly if ISKCON could let go of its "authority rules" mind set and inspire people to turn to God by truly helping them with unconditional love and devotion to the modern standard, a standard that more closley fits the realities that we all live by, then we would have something special indeed.

I used to make tons of devotees, now I must constantly define my "self evident unconditional love platform" as absolutely non-religious. ISKCON took me part of the way, now it can only hold me back, unless enough of the leaders miraculously decide to "get real".

[Guest guest]

 

"I know of no ISKCON Guru that is truly looking out for their disciples up to the modern standard." That is his problem if he doesn't know one.

 

I think a closely knit devotional organization bound by same rules could be more concerned about its devotees and their problem could be well a part of others' too. After all they all share the same platform.