Can women be swamis in hare krishna?

[Guest guest]

There are some nice new videos of Swami Tripurari and Swami Vrindaranya,I cant post the URL, but it you can find it on a You Tube search. See Vrindavana-spacery z Guru Maharajem that has the Swami in the foreground with his hand on his chest, and the Swamini in the background with a camera around her neck. You can also see other nivce videos of Swami reinstalling murti of Swami Maharaj Prabhupad with Spreepad Narasinga and also bestowing initiation on the fallen souls! Truly he is merciful but I am unsure if female Swaminis are bona fide? Does anyone know authority on this?

 

Jai Om Shanti!

 

[moderator's note: link added]

 

[Guest guest]

 

There are some nice new videos of Swami Tripurari and Swami Vrindaranya,I cant post the URL, but it you can find it on a You Tube search. See Vrindavana-spacery z Guru Maharajem that has the Swami in the foreground with his hand on his chest, and the Swamini in the background with a camera around her neck. You can also see other nivce videos of Swami reinstalling murti of Swami Maharaj Prabhupad with Spreepad Narasinga and also bestowing initiation on the fallen souls! Truly he is merciful but I am unsure if female Swaminis are bona fide? Does anyone know authority on this?

 

Jai Om Shanti!

 

It is certainly rare, but then again Vaishnava tridandi-sannyasa is also quite rare for men as well as women, having been reintroduced by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur less than 100 years ago.

 

In the Chaitanya Sarawat Math, Srila Govinda Maharaja has accepted just one lady as a sannyasini -- Bhakti Lalita Didi. Other women have come forward asking for a similar connection, but as far as I know they have all been refused. So it is extraordinarily rare, though not unprecedented.

[theist]

Of course you mean the formal sannyas order. The essence of sannyasa, complete renounciation of the world, is a must for everyone.

 

All must die to to this plane of death to gain life in the plane of Life.

[Guest guest]

 

It is certainly rare, but then again Vaishnava tridandi-sannyasa is also quite rare for men as well as women, having been reintroduced by Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur less than 100 years ago.

 

In the Chaitanya Sarawat Math, Srila Govinda Maharaja has accepted just one lady as a sannyasini -- Bhakti Lalita Didi. Other women have come forward asking for a similar connection, but as far as I know they have all been refused. So it is extraordinarily rare, though not unprecedented.

Bhakti Lalita Didi is not technically a sannyas person. She is simply following the vows like in the example of Mayadevi who was a disciple of Haridasa THakura. The devotee mayadevi had a shaved head, wore robes of an ascetic, engaged in severe tapasya. Bhakti Lalita is living like that, but now she lets her hair grow so she looks ordinary. That is her style, to be quiet and unobtrusive.

[bhaktatraveler]

Bombay

My dear Aditya,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 28th January, 1976.

The spirit soul is equal in either a man or woman. One who is actually engaged in the service of Krishna, there is no such distinction as man or woman. In the Bhagavad-gita, 6th Chapter, 1st Verse it is stated anasritah karma-phalam karijam karma karoti yah/ sa sannyasi ca yogi ca na niragnir na cakriyah. Anyone acting for Krishna, he is a sannyasi or sannyasini. It is also stated: striyo vaisyas tatha sudras te'pi yanti param gatim. So spiritually everyone is equal. But materially a woman cannot be given Sannyasa. But you should not be bothered because you are serving on the spiritual platform.

I hope this meets you well.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

7/16/7o Letter to Nevatiaji

 

7. Regarding Swamis and ``Swaminies,'' you have been misinformed. Among my disciples there is only one Swami or Sannyasi, but there is no ``Swaminie.'' Woman is never offered Sannyasa in the Vedic culture. Up to Vanaprastha stage the woman may remain with her husband as assistant or friend without any sex relation, and when a man takes Sannyasa the woman has no connection with him. I am very sorry to inform you that there are some Indian ``Swamis'' in this country who are living with so-called ``Swaminies,'' but so far we are concerned we follow strictly the Vedic principles.

 

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[Guest guest]

"but so far we are concerned we follow strictly the Vedic principles"

 

Statement by the Founder Acharya of Iskcon, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

All those who consider themselves to be in the society of the Acharya would agree with his conclusion based on his own claim that "We follow strictly the Vedic principles."

 

All those outside of that Acharya's vision for society need not apply for membership, and can create their own. The society sadhana is given according to time, place, and circumstance.

 

Whether or not the instruction comes from an Advanced devotee as opposed to a Madhyam or Kanistha adhikary, will determine the degree of spiritual advancement one can make under their guidance.

 

 

Nectar of Devotion. Chapter 5. :One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikäré. A neophyte Vaiñëava or a Vaiñëava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikäré as a spiritual master.

[mahak]

The physics has not a thing to do with anything. The renounced order is fully present in the avadhuta, who even renounces orders. Is Sukadeva Goswami a sanyassi initiate? No, he ran away from his guru, Vyasadeva, and never looked back, never even being given harinama initiation in a formal sense. Yet only fools would fail to call him GOSWAMI.

 

A similar goswami is the showgirl who was employed by the muslims in power to seduce Srila Haridas Thakur. By failing, she gained His Guru Krpa and becamne fully krsna conscious, chanting hundreds of rounds a day herself. When Haridas Thakur left that cave, she resided there, shaved her head, renounced the world, and received many folks who desired her darsana.

 

The material form is never an indicator of who is guru, swami, authentic, bhakti yogi. To use it as such is said to be greatly offensive.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasas

[stonehearted]

The "swamini" you see in the background with a camera is not a "swamini." She has not taken sannyasa. Rather, she lives as a committed monastic and has for many years. She is a very intelligent, humble woman whose life is dedicated solely to the service of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Her dress reflects that and may be seen as analogous to that of a Buddhist nun. In many Buddhist schools, the nuns' robes are identical to the monks'. And being a Buddhist monk is not always analogous to our sannyasa; there are different levels of ordination, perhaps like a sort of vanaprastha.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

The physics has not a thing to do with anything. The renounced order is fully present in the avadhuta, who even renounces orders. Is Sukadeva Goswami a sanyassi initiate? No, he ran away from his guru, Vyasadeva, and never looked back, never even being given harinama initiation in a formal sense. Yet only fools would fail to call him GOSWAMI.

 

A similar goswami is the showgirl who was employed by the muslims in power to seduce Srila Haridas Thakur. By failing, she gained His Guru Krpa and becamne fully krsna conscious, chanting hundreds of rounds a day herself. When Haridas Thakur left that cave, she resided there, shaved her head, renounced the world, and received many folks who desired her darsana.

 

The material form is never an indicator of who is guru, swami, authentic, bhakti yogi. To use it as such is said to be greatly offensive.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasas

 

Is not the question one of formality over function? The 'formality' of initiation into the sannyasa? I'm wondering if I misunderstood the question. I though it was the formality of initiation.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[bhaktatraveler]

 

The "swamini" you see in the background with a camera is not a "swamini." She has not taken sannyasa. Rather, she lives as a committed monastic and has for many years. She is a very intelligent, humble woman whose life is dedicated solely to the service of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Her dress reflects that and may be seen as analogous to that of a Buddhist nun. In many Buddhist schools, the nuns' robes are identical to the monks'. And being a Buddhist monk is not always analogous to our sannyasa; there are different levels of ordination, perhaps like a sort of vanaprastha.

 

Then these devotees in the tape are not in Srila Prabhupada's line? As in A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami? Is there common example of ladies adoping such maner of dress Vedicly? That the inevitable exception to a rule will be put forward, is not what I'm asking. I'm asking about the standard, not the exception.

 

Do not monistic women dress as widow?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[Guest guest]

 

 

Do not monistic women dress as widow?

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

 

Monistic women dress as the formless Absolute.

 

Monastic women, however, traditionally dress as widows.

[Guest guest]

 

Is not the question one of formality over function? The 'formality' of initiation into the sannyasa? I'm wondering if I misunderstood the question. I though it was the formality of initiation.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

 

Jaya Prabhupada

 

You understood correctly CB Prabhu.

 

Some people feel they are advanced enough in their vision to be able to apply the essence as evidence or apply the formality as evidence as is convenient, and since they actually lack advanced vision, wind up contradicting the contextual substance of their arguement.

 

If a person is in essence renounced, then what could possibly inspire them to order any material thing? Why not adhere to the entire "traditional" vedic standard of external sanyassa trappings?

 

Why half way?

 

- Initiation ceremony

 

and in addition, according to Guest 23.

 

"Bhakti Lalita Didi is not technically a sannyas person. She is simply following the vows like in the example of Mayadevi who was a disciple of Haridasa THakura. The devotee mayadevi had a shaved head, wore robes of an ascetic, engaged in severe tapasya. Bhakti Lalita is living like that, but now she lets her hair grow so she looks ordinary. That is her style, to be quiet and unobtrusive."

 

- "ascetic" robes

- shaved head

- "severe" tapasya

 

But now a change in the external of the hair.

 

What is next, Half Sari/ Half Dhoti?

 

The point being that the conceiver of the society speaks the order into being.

 

This was Lord Visnu through Lord Brahma, thus Satya Yuga Golden Age, pure Varnasrama Dharma.

 

Then from Acharya to Acharya, adjustments were spoken into being according to the change of time place and circumstance, ie. change of yuga , specific instances of decline in religiousity, scheduled avataric appearances, etc.

 

The attention to the external trappings are adjusted according to the level of materialistic involvement the aspirants are found in. It is that simple.

 

So we see the symptoms of a teacher ordering his society. Experimenting with some level of formal order with his disciple Bhakti Lalita Didi.

 

If there was a standard for the Satya Yuga of Vaisnava order, why not one for Kali Yuga.

 

It is a shame that since so many of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhhupada's disciples disobeyed his orders in this regard. It makes others think that Srila Prabhupada's orders were faulty, or only meant for the people who were "physically present" with him at the time.

 

CC Antya Lila, Concluding words... by HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

"Although according to material vision His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada passed away from this material world on the last day of December, 1936, I still consider His Divine Grace to be always present with me by his vani, his words. There are two ways of association-by vani and by vapu. Vani means words, and vapu means physical presence. Physical presence is sometimes appreciable and sometimes not, but vani continues to exist eternally. Therefore we must take advantage of the vani, not the physical presence."

 

And now they run hither and tither in a disorderly fashion experimenting with this and that, and Srila Prabhupada's Vani TRANSCENDENTALLY EXISTS ETERNALLY RIGHT BESIDE THEM IN THE ETHERS just waiting for them to try it on for size with sincerety and do what the cheaters could not do, which was save this damned world as soon as freakin possible by inspiring others to be who they are right now, perverted flaws and all, but just start doing it for Krsna under the shelter of his Transcendental Daiva Varnasrama Dharma Society lovingly known as Iskcon to many.

 

Hare Krsna

[bhaktatraveler]

Reminds me of how when the devotees first were going to India in the late 60's had changed the 'color' of garb they wore from 'yellow' to now 'white' as the Indians were doing. Prabhupada's responce at first sighting of the newly arrived devotees back to NY was "Who died?" Though He did not like it, the change of color, Prabhupada none the less let it stay as 'white', as concession to unruly disciples. Because they were under the influence of constant change which is Maya's tricks of illusional control, ajustment to a thing that was not broke. Ajusting outside instead of the inside is only the appeance of improvement.

This story was told to me by Rupanuga das.

 

Hare Krsna, Caturbahu das Bhakti Raja

[brajeshwara das]

Bhakti Lalita Devi is a sadhu. She has been of great assistance to me and has always been a fountain of mercy to me personally over the years. We should be careful when commenting about such people, as we don't know who exactly we may be dealing with.

[Guest guest]

[quote=Guest of Prabhupada"

 

And now they run hither and tither in a disorderly fashion experimenting with this and that, and Srila Prabhupada's Vani TRANSCENDENTALLY EXISTS ETERNALLY RIGHT BESIDE THEM IN THE ETHERS just waiting for them to try it on for size with sincerety and do what the cheaters could not do, which was save this damned world as soon as freakin possible by inspiring others to be who they are right now, perverted flaws and all, but just start doing it for Krsna under the shelter of his Transcendental Daiva Varnasrama Dharma Society lovingly known as Iskcon to many.

 

 

[Guest guest]

As already pointed out, the context of your question is based on misinformation has not taken sannyasa. However, here is the answer given by Tripurari Swami is a similar question:

 

Q. Why aren't women allowed to take sannyasa? If women are not these bodies and Gaudiya Vaishnava philosophy teaches that all souls are equal and get an equal opportunity to go back to Krsna, then why is there a restriction against women taking sannyasa? This restriction indicates to me that women are not being given the same opportunity as men for full spiritual advancement. In other spiritual societies women are given sannyasa, so why is it different in Gaudiya Vaisnavism? When I asked this question of other devotees, the answer I received was that women are not given sannyasa because they are supposed to be protected. However, I am aware that devotee women are not always protected and sometimes are even sent out alone to preach in foreign countries, including Africa. Please enlighten me on this matter.

 

A. The heart of Vaisnava sannyasa is renouncing material life and embracing the service of Sri Krsna. This is open to both men and women. Whereas the formality of accepting the renounced order of sannyasa has largely been restricted to men in consideration of socioreligious concerns. However, as circumstances change and these concerns are no longer relevant, I see no reason why women should be barred from accepting sannyasa.

 

In our times the relevance of anyone formally accepting sannyasa is questionable in terms of how it is perceived by the public. Furthermore, the tendency to equate the formal acceptance of sannyasa with spiritual advancement has caused many devotees to aspire for the formality of sannyasa rather than the substance of the order.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took the renounced order of life for the sake of preaching. At that time sannyasis were respected in Indian society, and thus Mahaprabhu took advantage of this in order to bring attention to his message. Similarly, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura instituted Vaisnava sannyasa in his lineage nearly a century ago. Among other reasons, he did this for the purpose of bringing dignity to the Gaudiya lineage in the eyes of the masses, who, due to the influence of the Advaitins and smarta brahmanas, over-identified the formal order of sannyasa with spiritual advancement and believed that one must be born in a brahmana family and then take sannyasa in order to attain liberation.

 

In his lineage, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta gave sannyasa only to those who were born in brahmana families and he engaged them in preaching widely. In that lineage the practice of accepting sannyasa continues to this day although the criteria for accepting this order of life is no longer restricted to those born in brahmana families. Indeed we now have sannyasis who by socioreligious caste consideration were born as "untouchables."

 

Today the general public does not automatically identify the sannyasa dress with spiritual advancement, and thus it may not always be conducive to furthering the message of Mahaprabhu. For example, although Srila Prabhupada gave me sannyasa, at one point he also wrote that in consideration of my preaching service at the time, which involved dressing in secular clothes, such acceptance of the formalities of sannyasa might be more of a hindrance than anything else. Therefore advanced devotees should determine whom to give sannyasa to in consideration of a number of factors, among which public opinion and perception is as important as is the devotee's level of spiritual advancement. At some point public opinion could warrant either the need for woman sannyasis or no sannyasis at all. At the same time, the tradition very much needs the guidance of spiritually advanced devotees, both male and female, who have renounced material life.

 

My personal opinion in consideration of public perception is that there is considerable merit in continuing the sannyasa tradition today but that the criteria for its acceptance should rest in greater spiritual advancement and scriptural knowledge than has been the standard in the recent past. I also believe that it is likely that there are a number of women who meet these criteria.

[Guest guest]

Now I see more clearly the real situation. Indeed, who could deny that the writings of Swami Tripurari are very pure and inspiring. Thank you all.

[Guest guest]

Here is a nice quote that I found on another forum on this topic of sannyasa:

 

Srila Prabhupada: Letter to Jayananda, 16.9.1967:

"Regarding your dispute in your mind as to remaining a brahmachari, grihastha or becoming sannyasi, there is nothing to be bothered with. Anyone who is in full Krishna Consciousness and is dedicating his life for Krishna is already a sannyasi even if he is a married man. If you like you can become a householder and I've no objection to that. Our Vaisnava philosophy instructs to become "Vidvati Sannyasis", this means a man who knows things as they are, therefore a devotee who knows that everything belongs to Krishna and that He is the proprietor of all such a devotee is certainly a Vidvati Sannyasi. Our philosophy is that we should accept things as prasadam of Krishna and nothing for sense enjoyment. Anyone who accepts things for sense enjoyment even if he is externally a saffron dressed man is not a sannyasi ..."