Pin point the spiritsoul

[theist]

When asked we say the soul is in the heart. But that is very general and someone may ask for more specifics as I am here. Afterall if we dissect the heart down to the quarks and other infitesimal particles we never find the self or if the heart is transplanted the soul does not go along for the ride.

 

So the spiritself must actually be existing in something finer than even our finest physicists can conceptulize.

 

So does that mean the self must exist in subtle matter, in the subtle body? But that can't be, because the subtle body of thoughts feelings and conceptions is changing at ever second but yet the self remains in place amongst this constant change.

 

So where does this leave us? Where are we right here and now?

 

I often ask people to point to where they are exactly when trying to explain that we are not the body. They invariably point to their body. I then ask them if they are pointing to a particle piece of skin or something deeper or maybe an atom. Metabolism proves the self cannot be the body.

 

This question is never asked of anyone in the material system. It rarely arises in anyone's mind and when questioned in this way for the first time you can see the puzzled and even astonished look on their faces.

 

We came to this point on the origin of the jiva thread and I would like to pursue it further to at least hear others thoughts.

 

Please pinpoint the soul for me.

[bija]

Just a bit of a tangent straightway. The particle of soul is considered 1/10,000 the size of the tip of the head of a hair, by scriptural definition.

 

When I first read that my initial thought was, gosh we are really small. Since then I have thought about that. That maybe I was comparing this size only by my own relative mind. Could it be that in this 180 degrees opposite reality, small is actually really big, and the grosser forms are actually really small.

 

Who knows, maybe some quantum physicist may have thought similar things. The finer the particles become; the stranger the laws govering that realm become (judging by our limited understandings of a mysterious cosmos). Terra incognita (described as dark by modern physicists).

 

 

The most recent WMAP observations are consistent with a Universe made up of 74% dark energy, 22% dark matter, and 4% ordinary matter. quote from wikipedia (dark matter).

Now this really intrigues me...scripture states that 75% of existence is spiritual substance, and the remaining 25% of existence is material substance.

 

As can be seen from the above quote dark matter and ordinary matter make up 26% of existence. And this mysterious dark energy makes up 74%.

 

Makes me wonder. In Srila Prabhupada's Easy Journey to Other Planets he used the popular scientific term available at the time to describe this 75% - the term he used was anti-matter. If my memory serves me correct.

 

Sometimes we have basic conceptions in our realizations that the spiritual realm is 'somewhere out there'. Could it be possible that it is actually much closer than this? Vaikuntha within?

 

 

Sri Krsna Samhita 5.2 by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

"Being overwhelmed by the sound of Krishna's flute, the gopis of Vraja worshiped goddess Yogamaayaa with a desire to attain Krishna. The appearance of the truth of Vaikuntha in the pure consciousness of the living entities of this world is called Vraja. The word vraja means “to go.” It is impossible to elevate oneself in this material world by rejecting maayaa, therefore one should take shelter of favorable material items and try to search for the indescribable truth. For this reason living entities who have attained the mood of gopis take shelter of the great goddess Yogamaayaa to help them attain the Lord's pastimes in the spiritual world."

Could Vaikuntha actually be the core of that very fine substratum (dark energy), the core of all that be? These scientific statistics above seem to point to this.

 

When I was a small child I thought to myself....there is worlds within me. I am starting to believe that now. Worlds within worlds within worlds...if I can use these mundane words to describe it.

 

And if so, it must be fully realisable by the jiva, it is at the core of our very being. We are a particle of it. Therefore it must be attainable by realization...by samadhi.

 

As per the origin thread, could this be why Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in his Brahma Samhita commentary states that we come from the spiritual effulgence? The great spiritual expanse. Considering ofcourse that the individuality of the jiva is ever existent, and does not lose self awareness at any stage.

 

 

Originally Posted by Bhaktisiddhanta

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wrote in Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:

sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa

TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead's effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

 

 

Just some speculation!

[Avinash]

 

So the spiritself must actually be existing in something finer than even our finest physicists can conceptulize.

It has to be. All the particles that the physicists have found can decay. If soul is made up of these, then soul also has to decay. But it is against what our scriptures say. This means that soul is finer than even the fines particles that physicists have found.

 

 

... or if the heart is transplanted the soul does not go along for the ride.

This means that soul is not physically a part of the organ called heart. To give an analogy, consider a cylinder open from both ends. There is some small object in the space inside the cylinder. We can say that the object is inside the cylinder. But if we move the cylinder to somewhere else, then the object will not move. This is because the object is not a part of the cylinder's body.

 

 

So does that mean the self must exist in subtle matter, in the subtle body? But that can't be, because the subtle body of thoughts feelings and conceptions is changing at ever second but yet the self remains in place amongst this constant change.

Soul has to be more subtle than even the subtle matter.

 

 

Please pinpoint the soul for me.

You are making an implicit assumption that soul exists in space. If it exists in space, then by the theory of relativity, it must exist in time also. But what if it is not bound by space and time? Quantum Physics says that space finer than around 10^-35 meter has no significance and time less than around 10_43 second has no significance. What it really means is that our whole concept of space and time becomes meaningless at scale smaller than these numbers.

[mohankrishna]

"...if the heart is transplanted the soul does not go along for the ride."

I think we should begin with BG 2.24 :-

 

This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

 

This is simply my contemplation and it's only a thought. I believe the understanding is that we being in this material world is actually our secondary consciousness - so that's how we (the souls) are immovable relative to this material manifestation of Hari. Ofcourse we know from scripture that we are mobile in vaikuntha and goloka. So does this BG verse refer to the spiritual planets aswell? I don't know.

 

But I guess from the upanishadic description of the size, we can understand that it is very small indeed so your relatively large finger will not be able to pin point it. Another important verse to consider is BG 2.17 :-

 

"That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul."

 

Srila Prabhupada explains that it is consciousness that pervades the entire body as a symptom of the presence of the soul.

Once again I'd like to remind ppl that this is just speculation.

 

We understand things we have not experienced based on things we have experienced. When we see something glowing red and smoke coming off it - we don't tend to go and examine it by touching it! But NASA has developed a material that dissipates instantaniously- so although it's glowing red it's not "hot" ...but nevertheless our "intelligence" tells us not to touch it.

 

The point is that we can only know so much through analogy but the analogy can only take you so far - as the queries get more complex and detailed the only way is through experiencing it...because describing spiritual through material is limited.

In the Mundaka Upanishad (in purport of BG 2.17) it says:-

 

"The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air (prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, samāna and udāna), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."

[gHari]

The soul is beyond space and time. When illusioned, the soul through the influence of ahankara develops coverings, subtle and material, according to nature's karmic laws, and the soul falsely identifies with this false-ego body, forgetting its true eternal nature and all previous false-egos from time immemorial.

 

Under such stupefying illusion, the soul can easily feel itself the controller of the material body, the enjoyer of its world. Hence the feeling of enjoyment separate from God is thus achieved.

 

There is the soul - at the heart of the matter.

[krsna]

"The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body. According to the Muëòaka Upaniñad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul. The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body. The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, the activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases. Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul. Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body."

 

-BG 2:17 purport

 

You are soul sittin' next to the BIG Soul KRSNA!

 

You can be His best friend; pray to Him from the core of your heart.

 

Soul pin-pointed by prayerful meditative trance(samadhi) induced by showers of mercy(KRSNA- Krpa) and love(KRSNA-Prema).

 

Soul conciousness is now fettered by material duality. When freed of this dualistic conception(matter and spirit) and you enter into the pure inconcievably one and different conception( Sri KRSNA Caitanya's Acintya-bheda-abheda tattva). Then and only then can one truly pin-point the soul proper in your heart of hearts who is one with KRSNA qualitatively but different from quantatatively. You are small as a pin point(and there you are really are as a teeny soul: a mere pin of a point"." Whereas KRSNA is the source of all pins and points.@@.................................................&&&

[theist]

 

Quote:

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> You are making an implicit assumption that soul exists in space. If it exists in space, then by the theory of relativity, it must exist in time also. But what if it is not bound by space and time? Quantum Physics says that space finer than around 10^-35 meter has no significance and time less than around 10_43 second has no significance. What it really means is that our whole concept of space and time becomes meaningless at scale smaller than these numbers.

 

 

Hi Avinash,

 

We dont hear enough from you here. I am happy you haven't abandoned us. I can't follow you equation but I can follow your explanation. Yes that is what I was looking for, more evidence that the soul exists in a dimension beyond the confines of time and space. And since we are the soul that means that our existence is also beyond time and space which further means that we are existing there RIGHT NOW.

 

Beyond time means beyond past and future considerations so the idea that we will in the future enter the spiritual world can only really mean that in the "future" we will come to understand that we are in the spiritual world right now.

[bija]

 

Beyond time means beyond past and future considerations so the idea that we will in the future enter the spiritual world can only really mean that in the "future" we will come to understand that we are in the spiritual world right now. quote by theist

 

Yes theist...I also feel such conviction.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Beyond time means beyond past and future considerations so the idea that we will in the future enter the spiritual world can only really mean that in the "future" we will come to understand that we are in the spiritual world right now.

 

 

Yes theist...I also feel such conviction.

 

What you are both saying is a jnanic or philosophical truth about nature of time and eternity. This is what Uddhava tried to preach to the Gopis, but the Gopis thoroughly rejected this. They said something like, "O do you think we are jnanis, no we are just simple villiage girls, an not only that we are not trying to remember Krsna but rather we are trying to forget Him, for our separation is causing so much pain."

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja has said, "Those who have an intense sense of mineness also experience a strong separation mood. If there is no mamata [mineness], there is no separation mood. Feelings of separation depend on the gradation of feelings of mineness. If the sense of mamata is condensed, then in meeting there is so much happiness and in separation there is so much suffering."

 

aradhyo bhagavan brajesa-tanayas-tad-dhama vrndavana

ramya kacid-upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena ya kalpita

srimad-bhagavatah pramanam-amalam prema pumartho mahan

sri caitanya mahaprabhur-matam-idam tatradaro nah parah

"The Supreme Lord Vrajendra-nandana Sri Krsna is my worshipable Deity, and His transcendental abode, Sri Vrndavana-dhama, is equally worshipable. The most excellent method of worshipping Krsna is that adopted by the gopa-ramanis, the young wives of Vraja. Srimad-bhagavatam is the flawless and most authoritative evidence of this. This krsna-prema is the fifth and highest achievement of human life – beyond dharma, artha, kama, and moksa. This is the opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We have supreme regard for His conclusion, and we have no inclination or respect for any other, cheating opinions."

[bija]

 

What you are both saying is a jnanic or philosophical truth about nature of time and eternity. This is what Uddhava tried to preach to the Gopis, but the Gopis thoroughly rejected this. They said something like, "O do you think we are jnanis, no we are just simple villiage girls, an not only that we are not trying to remember Krsna but rather we are trying to forget Him, for our separation is causing so much pain." quote by shakti-fan.

Yes...well detected and pointed out shakti-fan. If I may open and share where I am at presently, there is some semblance of bhakti (jnana-misra-bhakti). I have realized this for some time now. And really the only solace is the shelter of pure devotees. Maybe by their association I may be graced one lifetime to be able to taste unadulterated sentiment.

 

Surely the path for some of us is long. The subtle sphere is vast and the glaring effulgence is unlimited. So hopefully by regular chanting of GaurangaKrsna Naam, oneday I may be able to realize that the Lord in the heart is....Sri Krsna.

 

We are so in need of pure Vaisnava association. These are such nice verses from Srila Narayana Maharaja. Thank you for posting this and pointing the way to pure bhakti.

[theist]

We are not all on such a high platform as you Shakti Fan. Please forgive us.

[bija]

TWELFTH CHAPTER OF JAIVA-DHARMA, ENTITLED “NITYA-DHARMA, SADHANA & SADHYA"

 

 

......Vrajanatha: The karma-kanda section of the Vedas gives instructions to perform bhakti to Isvara, who bestows the results of all action. In the jnana-kanda section we also find instructions to satisfy Hari by performing bhakti through the medium of the four types of sadhana known as sadhana-catustaya. So how can bhakti be the sadhya if it is the means to obtain bhukti and mukti? Since bhakti is the means, it ceases to exist when it produces bhukti or mukti. This is the general principle. Please educate me on this question.

Babaji: It is true that performing the regulated practices (sadhana) of bhakti in karma-kanda gives material enjoyment, and bhaktisadhana performed in jnana-kanda gives mukti. One cannot achieve any result without satisfying Paramesvara, and He is only satisfied by bhakti. He is the reservoir of all potencies, and whatever potency is found within the jivas, or within inert matter, is only an infinitesimal display of His potency. Karma and jnana cannot satisfy Isvara. Karma and jnana give a result only with the help of bhagavadbhakti. They are incapable of producing a result independently. Therefore, it is seen that there is an arrangement for some performance of a semblance of bhakti in karma and jnana. However, this is not suddha-bhakti. Rather, it is only bhakty-abhasa. Accordingly, the bhakti seen in karma and jnana is a mere semblance of devotion, not suddha-bhakti, and it is this bhakty-abhasa that is instrumental in bringing forth the results of those pursuits.

There are two types of bhakty-abhasa: suddha bhakty-abhasa (pure) and viddha bhakty-abhasa (adulterated). I shall describe pure bhakty-abhasa later, but for the present, you should know that there are three types of adulterated bhakty-abhasa. These are bhakty-abhasa adulterated with fruitive action, bhakty-abhasa adulterated with monistic knowledge, and bhakty-abhasa adulterated with both fruitive action and monistic knowledge.

While a person is performing a yajna, he may say, “O Indra, O Pusana (the devata of the sun), please be merciful and give us the results of this yajna.” All activities exhibiting a semblance of Bhakti adulterated with this type of desire are known as a semblance of bhakti adulterated with fruitive action. Some magnanimous souls have referred to this type of adulterated bhakti as devotion mixed with fruitive action (karma-misra-bhakti). Others have described it as activities to which the symptoms of bhakti are indirectly attributed (aropa-siddha-bhakti).

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]-->

Another person may say, “O Yadunandana, I have come to You out of fear of material existence. I chant Your name, Hare Krsna, day and night. Please grant me liberation. O Supreme Lord, You are brahma. I have fallen into the trap of maya. Please deliver me from this entanglement and let me merge in oneness with You.” These sentiments are a semblance of bhakti adulterated with monistic knowledge. Some magnanimous souls have described this as devotion mixed with monistic knowledge (jnana-misra-bhakti), and others as activities to which the symptoms of bhakti are indirectly attributed (aropa-siddha-bhakti). These adulterated forms of devotion are different from suddha-bhakti.

It is said in the Gita (6.47), sraddhavan bhajate yo mam sa me yuktatamo matah, “I consider that one who worships Me with faith is the best of all yogis.” The bhakti to which Sri Krsna is referring in this statement is suddha-bhakti, and this is our sadhana. When it is perfected, it is prema. Karma and jnana are the means to obtain bhukti and mukti respectively. They are not the means by which the jiva can obtain his nitya-siddha-bhava, or eternal constitutional position of divine love.

When Vrajanatha had heard all these conclusive truths, he was unable to make further inquiries that day. Instead, he reflected within himself, “The examination and discussion of all these subtle philosophical truths is superior to the dialectical analysis of the nyaya-sastra. Babaji Mahasaya is vastly learned in these matters. I will gradually acquire knowledge by inquiring from him about these topics. It is quite late, so I should return home now.”

Thinking thus, he said, “Babaji Mahasaya, today by your mercy, I have received essential superior knowledge. I would like to come to you from time to time to receive this type of instruction. You are a deeply realized scholar and a great teacher; please be merciful to me. Kindly permit me to ask you just one more question today, since it is already late, and I will return home when I have heard your answer. Did Sri Sacinandana Gauranga write any book in which all of His instructions can be found? If He did, I am anxious to read it.”

Babaji Mahasaya replied, “Sriman Mahaprabhu did not write any book of His own, but His followers wrote many books on His order. Mahaprabhu personally gave the jivas eight instructions in the form of aphorisms, named Siksastaka. These are like a necklace of jewels for the bhaktas. In these eight slokas, He has imparted the instructions of the Vedas, the Vedanta, the Upanisads, and the Puranas in a concise and confidential manner, as if keeping a vast ocean in a single pitcher. Based on these confidential instructions, the bhaktas have composed ten fundamental principles known as Dasa-mula. This Dasa-mula succinctly describes both sadhya and sadhana with reference to the topics of sambandha, abhidheya, and prayojana. You should understand this first.”

“Whatever you order, it is my duty to fulfill,” said Vrajanatha. “You are my siksa-guru. I will come tomorrow evening and take instruction from you on Dasa-mula.”

Vrajanatha then offered dandavat-pranama to Babaji Mahasaya, who embraced him with great affection. “My son,” said Babaji, “you have purified the brahmana lineage. It will give me great pleasure if you come tomorrow evening.”

end of chapter twelve

[Avinash]

With utmost respect Shakti-Fan, let me say that you have taken things completely out of context. When gopis did not give importance to the explanation given by Uddhav, it does not mean that Uddhav was saying something wrong. It simply means that gopis did not consider that knowledge as any use for them. There is a big difference here.

 

You have written

 

What you are both saying is a jnanic or philosophical truth about nature of time and eternity.

Agreed, but if we go by the position of the gopis, then the gopis would not have said any non-jnanic or non-philosophical things about the reality of space and time. They would have just not given any importance to such things. Of course, they might have said something poetic about space and time but that space and time would not have been the same as what we are talking about now. The position of gopis may be higher so far attaining Krsna-prema is concerned, but it does not mean that philosophical aspects are bad. If that were the case, Lord Kapil would not have explained philosophical things to His mother Devahuti; Lord Krsna would not have preached philosophical things to Arjuna in the beginning of Mahabharat war and Lord Krsna would not have given philosophical knowledge to Uddhav just before leaving this planet.

 

 

 

What you are both saying is a jnanic or philosophical truth about nature of time and eternity. This is what Uddhava tried to preach to the Gopis, but the Gopis thoroughly rejected this. They said something like, "O do you think we are jnanis, no we are just simple villiage girls, an not only that we are not trying to remember Krsna but rather we are trying to forget Him, for our separation is causing so much pain."

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja has said, "Those who have an intense sense of mineness also experience a strong separation mood. If there is no mamata [mineness], there is no separation mood. Feelings of separation depend on the gradation of feelings of mineness. If the sense of mamata is condensed, then in meeting there is so much happiness and in separation there is so much suffering."

 

aradhyo bhagavan brajesa-tanayas-tad-dhama vrndavana

ramya kacid-upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena ya kalpita

srimad-bhagavatah pramanam-amalam prema pumartho mahan

sri caitanya mahaprabhur-matam-idam tatradaro nah parah

 

"The Supreme Lord Vrajendra-nandana Sri Krsna is my worshipable Deity, and His transcendental abode, Sri Vrndavana-dhama, is equally worshipable. The most excellent method of worshipping Krsna is that adopted by the gopa-ramanis, the young wives of Vraja. Srimad-bhagavatam is the flawless and most authoritative evidence of this. This krsna-prema is the fifth and highest achievement of human life – beyond dharma, artha, kama, and moksa. This is the opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. We have supreme regard for His conclusion, and we have no inclination or respect for any other, cheating opinions."

[bija]

 

You are making an implicit assumption that soul exists in space. If it exists in space, then by the theory of relativity, it must exist in time also. But what if it is not bound by space and time? Quantum Physics says that space finer than around 10^-35 meter has no significance and time less than around 10_43 second has no significance. What it really means is that our whole concept of space and time becomes meaningless at scale smaller than these numbers. quote avinash

That is so interesting Avinash. Many religionists are critical of science. But I see things differently. This is the 21st century, not the mid 20th century. The insights of modern physics are wonderful(my knowledge is minimal - only from internet and tv)...but it gives great scope to the possibilities of spirituality these days. This is a wondeful universe. So the prospect of a spiritual dimension is most appealing. If you know what I mean.

 

I think I recall Srila Prabhupada's words onetime when he said something like....modern science will be of great benefit when it points to the existence of God (totally paraphrased here - I have tried to find the exact quote again but cannot find it).

 

So it is exciting times to live...for sure!

[Guest guest]

Sri Radha said:

 

If by good fortune I have another chance to have his darshan, divine

vision, then what should I do? Avoiding Krishna, I shall instead try to

worship time. I shall worship that moment, that minute, that second in

which I have the divine vision of Krishna. I shall try to propitiate time,

so that time itself may stay for some time. With garlands, sandalwood

paste, and jewels, I shall try to worship time and not Krishna. If time

stands still, being propitiated with my respectful behavior, then Krishna

will remain. In this way, I shall try to fix the time, 'You please stay

here for some time. Krishna is showing Himself - time, you be eternal

here.' Otherwise, like lightning, Krishna comes and vanishes.

 

 

In all the days of Brahma, in every yuga, the yugavatara comes, but

Krsna appears only once in a day of Brahma, or once every 4.3 billion

years. At that time, the Original Personality of Godhead (svayam

bhagavan) appears along with His abodes, Vrndavana and Navadwipa.

And Krsna and Mahaprabhu do not come here alone, but They come

with Their paraphernalia and suitable companions.

 

 

The divine abode itelf comes within this material universe!

 

 

Sri Labanga Manjari said in Brhadbhagavatamrtam ( 2.6 ):

 

352 O friend, after some time, as if he had never come before, Akrura came again with his chariot to Vraja.

353 Again he took away the life of Vraja. The people there attained the same condition as before.

354 Again Krsna went to Mathura city, killed Kamsa, and returned to Vraja as before. In this way He enjoyed pastimes.

355 Again and again He goes to Mathura city and, as before, again and again He returns and enjoys pastimes in Vraja.

356 Again and again He subdues Kaliya. Again and again He lifts Govardhana Hill. Again and again the Lord enjoys many wonderful pastimes that enchant the devotees' hearts.

357 But the residents of Vraja, completely bewildered by the kulakata poison of their supreme love for Sri Krishna, never think that any of these events has ever occurred before.

358 Thus the powerful force of their obsessive love ever increasingly grows, both in union and separation.

359 As true as this is for the eternal residents of Vraja, even NEWCOMERS like me can hardly remember those past events.

(dure stru tavad varteyam tatra nitya nivasinam na tisthed anusandhanam nutnamam madrsam api)

[bija]

I have one word for you guestD....thanks.

[theist]

Please be mindful the thread topic is on understanding separating the soul from the material coverings and not on suddha bhakti vs jnana/bhakti.

 

So many nce things can be found in the scriptures but if they don't relate to the thread topic then the polite thing to do is to start your own thread.

[theist]

I was reading a book on identity by Jagat Guru aka Siddhasvarupananda and if I remember right it was in Who Am I. He mentioned the example of Francis Crick the codiscoverer of DNA and a world reknowned scientist.

 

Crick had gone a mission to find the self. That is admirable in itself but he limited his search to the biological manifestation. He spent years examining the brain considering every known neuron looking for the self and came to the conclusion that the self was an illusion and did not exist!!! He then went on to give lectures on the nonexistence of the self. Can you imagine a self lecturing other self's on how there is no self? How great maya is that she can illusion such a big big scientist into such a foolish position.

 

Crick's search was proper use of intelligence in concept but because he limited himself to the gross field of matter he became a fool.

 

The Buddhist's do a similar thing only they have chosen as their field of investigation the subtle body. Upon dissecting the body of thoughts and feelings and finding them all temporary and wispy like the atomic field with no self made of subtle matter they conclude there is no self. This places them in the same position as Crick, fools.

 

Some humilty is required. We are so helpless and under illusion that we must have the Lord's grace even to find ourselves let alone Him. If we acknowlege and respect that fact our search for ourselves will be fruitful as He will turn up the samvit potency as a spotlight on the reality of the situation and we may then become enlightened in self realization.

 

"Oh Lord, who am I, who are You, what is this universe and what is my relationship to You and the world of my sense perception?"

 

Let us proceed under His guidance. Amen.

[Sridas]

Hari bol souls,

Well no doubt the wonder of the soul will for ever produce more and more everfresh wonder.

It seems we tend to try and localize the soul or pigeonhole it into a limited definition.

When that which is covered by material conception or vision is illuminated with realization of itself, then that which was hidden deep in matter and perceived as matter is brought out to be seen as a luminous devotee of God in the full fledged real vision of the soul or that seers consciousness becomes itself within... living in its swarup and also seeing the full potential of all other souls.So we can't really restrict anyone from seeing the form of a gopi in others because ultimately that is what they are or have the potential to be, and seeing their real identity is seeing their soul proper and by the grace of Guru and God we might all be seeing that some time in eternity.

But if our vision is limited to a point of light in the heart where is the heart of a blade of grass, or an amoeba and other such souls, and then what form are they taking . It seems it depends on the seer of those souls. So to the fully realized souls they perceive the water, the wind, the fire, the earth all as conscious servitors of the Lord.

Pinpointing the soul of the wind is like trying to wrap fire in paper, not that it's nessacarily invisible, but some souls have the desire to be in different places at once and others may shapeshift . It seems a self realized soul becomes its form. and that soul completely pervades the form.Just as Mahaprabhu is seeing Krishna in Lord Jagganaths' form and sees all His transcendental associates simultaneously as Krsnas' associates.

We have to try to also, always dive deeper to see with honor the higher identity of those sent to associate with us or all souls for that matter..

I think Srila Sridhara Maharaj is alluding to that in this little snippit.

 

Angles of Vision

Disciple: So what is the form of the soul in conditioned material existence?

Srila Sridhara Maharaj: That is known according to the dress. The man sometimes to be fully recognized is known only by his dress, the representation of a thing to the ignorant section is of a particular type, it may not be the real thing, but something from their lesser position. Every unit is a slave to the Absolute vision, but to the ignorant there are so many different conceptions of things.

Only He knows what is the purpose of every atom, every atom has got its utility and He is the only one who knows that purpose and He sees the divine luminous form of all. He is conscious of the purpose of all existence and He is independent, not responsible to explain to anyone. Every atom’s purpose in life is to satisfy him, this is Hegel’s theory. Reality by Himself and for Himself “Every wave and every movement is to fulfill My purpose, you are also Mine, belonging to me wholesale, but now you have put yourself in such a position that you have to search for me.”

Sometimes a man, a beast, tree, bird, creeper, the external understanding is according to the person who is relating to the object, the estimation is different according to the seer, the vision of the seer, the world is in the mind. The classification will be different according to the estimation of the reader how refined their vision may be. Like when ffice:smarttags" /> entered the arena of Kamsa.

mallanam-asa-nirnrnam naravarh srina

smaro murtiman .

gopanam svajano satamksiti-bhujam santa svapriroh sisuh

mrtyur-bhoja-pater-virada-vidusam tattvam param yoginam

vrisninam paradevitetividito rangam gatah sagrajah

According to their vision, everyone saw him with a different estimation, he was viewed according to the respective mentality of every spectator. The people saw him as a divine super human being, while the ladies saw him as the Lord of love and the cowherds as their kinsman while Kamsa saw him as death personified. Relative and Absolute

The Nature of the Soul

Sat-chit-anandam these three things - first existence, then the 2<SUP>nd</SUP> Knowledge of our own existence, then the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> is the fulfillment of our existence.

The figure of existence, the figure of consciousness, and the object of the search of the figure. Whoever is conceiving, when searching for something that is the soul. What the soul wants to feel is higher, and what it is feeling at present is lower, and chit is in between. The level below is matter so it is not satisfactory, therefore we desire anandam, fulfillment, harmony and beauty from the higher level, without anandam existence is empty and chit- knowledge is dry, also unsatisfactory. Three kinds of existence sat-chit-anandam, Satyam-Sivam-Sundaram. Siva is generally represented by consciousness and sakti-potency by matter, and consciousness of the potency is Siva- the figure, the person, and then who can fulfill the search of the person. that is anandam- sundaram, who is beauty, harmony, love. Andanam is complete, full in Itself, both existence and the person you will find in anandam, but not in sat or chit, So existence and the figure of existence both need something more, so with beauty, love and ecstasy, that is perfect existence. Anandam is the Queen, and existence is the servant, the figure of our existence is to serve that ecstasy or bliss and who is the reservoir of that ananda? Govindasundara the beautiful.

 

So what ya see is what ya got!

 

Also if one were to experience a real vision of Krsna then simultaneously ones self would be realized, as self realization is no doubt included in God realization, but it seems most souls from this side are aspiring back to Godhead and i would assume self realization would proceed God realization, so in most cases we should be cautious of such visions and where we actually are in reality.

 

Still I appreciate Srimati Radhas' partition to Time it is truly wonderful, we all need Timeji's friendship. i.e. to give us a little more, I'd love it to stand still awhile when I have my more inspired moments

as they are so far and few between.

I can just hear Theist movin' me on to another thread.

[Beggar]

It's all so true O best of the Theists. Our realization level is that we might have, "two feet in the mud" as Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say, but our ideal is to give up this jnana misra bhakti program. Still we are all addicted otherwise why are we posting here? Pujala raga patha gaurava bhange... We may be eons away from jnana sunya bhakti but we will keep it on our heads and offer our worship to those raga pathas (becoming ragatmika) who have attained it or are getting close. And we shall see our gurudeva as one of them and hope against hope to surrender and render service there.

[theist]

 

Sri Radha said:

 

If by good fortune I have another chance to have his darshan, divine

vision, then what should I do? Avoiding Krishna, I shall instead try to

worship time. I shall worship that moment, that minute, that second in

which I have the divine vision of Krishna. I shall try to propitiate time,

so that time itself may stay for some time. With garlands, sandalwood

paste, and jewels, I shall try to worship time and not Krishna. If time

stands still, being propitiated with my respectful behavior, then Krishna

will remain. In this way, I shall try to fix the time, 'You please stay

here for some time. Krishna is showing Himself - time, you be eternal

here.' Otherwise, like lightning, Krishna comes and vanishes.

 

"If time stands still,..."

 

Yes. And in Goloka time does stand still.

 

Guestd, where do you consider the soul to be?

[theist]

 

Sat-chit-anandam these three things - first existence, then the 2^nd Knowledge of our own existence, then the 3^rd is the fulfillment of our existence.

 

Yes this is where most of are at and certainly 99.999999% of the inhabitants of this universe are at. We need to understand that we are of such a constituion as to be impervious to the ravages of time. We are never born and we never die. We are eternal right now. Immortals presently fearing death a very sad thing.

 

Death is a myth and we must be able to offer some convincing logic to others so they will be willing to investigate it themselves.

[theist]

Well I choose not to confuse intellectually knowing about higher rasa with the actual adhikara necessary to enter in to those rasa's. To think otherwise is jnana in a perverted form.

 

First I must come to be established in my self then with that clarity of vision Krsna and my relationship with Him will also become clear.

 

This doesn't mean suddha bhakti is not understood to be the goal but it is only the recognition that holding it in conception is not the same as being engaged in it.

[theist]

 

SB 4.20.11: Anyone who knows that this material body, made of the five gross elements, the sense organs, the working senses and the mind, is simply supervised by the fixed soul is eligible to be liberated from material bondage.

Fixed soul. So one way to get an idea about the location of the soul is through negation of where/what the soul is not. The atoms of the body are constantly coming and going under the process of metabolism which takes place only under the influence of the fixed soul. Since the soul as sensed as I am is present before during and after all phases of metabolism we can eliminate the soul or I am as being any product of said metabolism such as some neuron or collection of neurons.

 

Sense organs like the eyes cannot be the soul because they have no power of perception. The eye picks up light then passes those impressions to the brain where they are arranged as a pictorial interpretation then sent to the mind to be given a certain context. The fixed soul exists before during and after all these phases so it must be separate from them all and existing as the ultimate perceiver of the impressions that flow through the material senses.

 

So it becomes obvious that the soul (you and I) must factually have as our residence a place beyond gross and subtle matter right now. We are in fact presently in transcendence but because we are falsely identifying with the actions and reactions of the material body and mind we are unconscious of that fact.

[Gaurasundara]

I rather think that the jiva-soul, size being a ten-thousandth part of a tip of hair, may be out of the reach of scientific instruments. Compare this with the description of the Paramatma who is supposedly eight inches long, and cannot be discovered by scientific instuments either!