Rasas present in Christianity?

[brajeshwara das]

Just hoping from some nectar from HerServant, mahak, Bija etc. My hope is to help my parents grow in their devotion to Christ, and be able to better relate to Christians in general.

 

Jaya Lord Jesus and Lord Jaganatha!

[theist]

Daysa rasa is servitude to the Lord and that is apparant in Jesus Christ.

 

Shakya rasa is friendship with the Lord and that I see also in Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I see vatsalya in Mary and her love for Jesus as mother. The question I have is, are these rasa applicable to shakya-vesa avatars or only Vishnu tattava?

 

It may be true that friendship and servitude in Christianity was all that was revealed. We must be careful here, I believe, because the mind will want to be creative and fill in the blanks.

 

One can certainly see the conjugal mood of separation expressed in the Song of Solomen.

 

I am curious to see what others say about this. We could have another beautiful thread starting here. Thanks braj

[HerServant]

 

Just hoping from some nectar from HerServant, mahak, Bija etc. My hope is to help my parents grow in their devotion to Christ, and be able to better relate to Christians in general.

 

Jaya Lord Jesus and Lord Jaganatha!

 

Dear Brajeshwara

 

This is a VERY important topic and I am very happy you want to discuss.

 

Yes. Of course the rasas are there and in many flavors and aspects. We are not teaching quite the same approach however. The rosary devotion is the key and the starting place. We are called to enter into the experience of the Mystery of the Incarnation by contacting Jesus by way of the Blessed Virgin Mary bhava and rasa.

 

We do not teach in these terms, but more simply, that we go to Jesus through the heart of Mary.

 

The name Rosary means "garland of roses (flowers)" which is identical to the meaning mala-japa.

 

In general we ask Mary's intercession as we pray the rosary. Your parents will likely have the rosary beads in the home, and if not, you can get through any catholic church.

 

The rosary is a contemplative prayer and the favorite devotion among catholics. There are 20 "mysteries" of the Holy Rosary:

 

see http://www.pacifier.com/~rosarweb/howto.htm

 

Joyful:

 

Annuciation

Visitation

Incarnation

Presentation

Finding in the Temple

 

Luminous:

 

Baptism of Jesus

Feast of Cana

Proclamation of the Kingdom

Transfiguration

Eucharist (Lord's supper)

 

Sorrowful:

 

Agony in the Garden

Scourging at the Pillar

Crowning with Thorns

Carrying the Cross

Crucifixion of Jesus

 

Glorious:

 

Resurrection

Ascension

Descent of Holy Spirit

Assumption of Mary

Coronation of Mary

 

Since I have come to know a little about you I will suggest the following for your own discovery. In the book "Sri Guru and His Grace" by Srila Bhakti Rakshana Sridhar Deva Goswami, you will find a teaching that all the names are contained in the Maha Mantra.

 

So if you are comfortable, I suggest that you think of your favorite rememberence of Jesus, not only from the above list but any is fine. Then chant your rounds and remember Jesus. At the beginning of your prayer, offer your actions to Divine Mother and ask for Her intercession. While you chant, fix your mind and heart on the Lord Jesus in the Lila, and particularly in the presence of Mary.

 

Naturally, chanting the Ave Maria and the Lord's prayer are very powerful, and recommended for Mom and Dad.

 

Since I know you are a devotee, I also know in advance about the graces you will receive. Please contact me via private message and I will provide my email also if you feel the need to discuss mom and dad spirituality and background in a more private setting.

 

I am very interested in hearing about your service, prayer for your mom and dad. I will write as much as I know about this important topic soon.

 

HerServant and yours!

[brajeshwara das]

Dear HerServant,

 

Thanks for your suggestions, I am a grand-disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj but will definitely read Sri Guru and His Grace again My parents are actually Anglican so not used to chanting the rosary, I am thinking of my understanding more so we can talk about Lord Jesus and Mother Mary with some more connection and understanding. It isn't that we always talk about spiritual life either, so I guess it is more for my understanding of the position of rasas in the Christian conception of Divinity. If these aren't so clearly defined of course I understand, I know Lord Jesus has His specific message. As theist points out I also see some of the rasas in Christianity so I was wanting to get your take on this.

[HerServant]

 

Daysa rasa is servitude to the Lord and that is apparant in Jesus Christ.

 

I see vatsalya in Mary and her love for Jesus as mother. The question I have is, are these rasa applicable to shakya-vesa avatars or only Vishnu tattava?

 

It may be true that friendship and servitude in Christianity was all that was revealed. We must be careful here, I believe, because the mind will want to be creative and fill in the blanks.

 

One can certainly see the conjugal mood of separation expressed in the Song of Solomen.

 

 

 

As Mahak has previously posted in various threads, one cannot fully understand Jesus without devotion to Mary.

 

Being in Mary's presence, one naturally sees Her rasa with God. In some sense it can be said that Her rasas cannot be directly experienced, and at the same time experienced. One does experience Her rasa the same way as achintya beda beda .. direct experience of indirect experience .. witnessing Her rasa is better than experience of the same rasa within me ..

 

I am absolutely certain that vatsalya rasa is in Mary. Like the old saying goes "chant and be happy", then "chant and meditate on Mary in Jesus Lila .. then you can say for yourself about Vatsalya lila.

 

Daysa rasa is there (Jesus' calming the storms and sea and healing pastimes). I am also certain Santa rasya is there ( Baptism of Jesus) .

 

As far as Madhurya rasa, I am reasonably certain that Jesus Lila actually begins with Madhurya rasa, and that this rasa is hidden IN Mary as She is hidden in the God's overshadowing power (the bridal chamber in the abode of God).

 

Even understanding the smallest fragment of this rasa is far beyond my position and worthiness. I don't dare to tread further.

 

I know that Mary's conjugal love affair could only be contacted if one is in a rapt ecstatic state something like the kind Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed upon entering Jagganatha Puri. The Mystery of the Incarnation takes place in God's bridal chamber where His love affairs with Mary are hidden by a cloud of God's power .. far far up in the Spiritual Sky.

 

One cannot even see the spiritual sky unless in ecstatic trance, let alone inside the cloud covered effulgent abode of God.

 

"And the angel said to her in reply, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." - Luke 1:35

 

HerServant and yours.

[bija]

From Moses To Mahaprabhu

By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

If the reader carefully considers, it will be found that the spiritual science gradually evolved from ancient times and became more simple, more clear and more condensed. The more impurities arising from time and place are removed, the more the beauties of the spiritual science brightly shine before us. This spiritual science took birth in the land of kusha grass on the banks of the Sarasvati river in Brahmavarta. As it gradually gained strength, this spiritual science spent its childhood in the abode of Badarikashram, which is covered with snow. It spent its boyhood in Naimisharanya on the banks of the Gomati river and its youth on the beautiful banks of the Kaveri river in the province of Dravida. The spiritual science ayyained maturity in Navadvip, on the banks of the Ganges, which purifies the universe.

By studying the history of the world, it is found that the spiritual science reached its peak in Navadvip. The Supreme Absolute Truth is the only object of love for the living entities. Unless one worhips Him with attachment, however, the living entity can never attain Him. Even if a person gives up all affection for this world and thinks of the Supreme Lord, He is still not easily achieved. He is controlled and attained by transcendental mellows alone. These mellows are of five types - shanta, dasya, sakya, vatsalya and madhurya.

The first mellow, shanta, is the stage in which the living entity surpasses the pains of material existence and situates himself in transcendence. In that state there is a little happiness, but no feeling of independence. At that time the relationship between the practitioner and the Lord is not yet established.

Dasya rasa is the second mellow. It contains all the ingradients of shanta rasa as well as affection. "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant". This type of relationship is found in dasya rasa. No one cares much for any of the best things of this world unless they are connected with affection. Therefore dasya rasa is superior to shanta rasa in many ways.

Sakya is superior to dasya. In dasya rasa there is a thorn in the form of awe and reverence, but the main ornament in sakya rasa is the feeling of friendship in equality. Among the servants, one who is a friend is superior. There is no doubt about it. In sakya rasa all the wealth of shanta and dasya is included.

It is easy to understand that vatsalya is superior to sakya. A son gives more affection and happiness than any friend. Therefore in vatsalya rasa we find the wealth of four rasas. Although vatsalya rasa is superior to these other rasas, it appears insgnificant before madhurya rasa. There may be many secrets unknown between father and son, but this not the case between husband and wife. Therefore, if we deeply consider, it will be seen that all the above-mentioned rasas attain perfection within madhurya rasa.

If we go through the histories of these five rasas, it is clearly understood that shanta rasa was seen in the beginning days of India. When the soul was not satisfied after performing sacrifices with material ingredients, then transcendentalists like Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanat-kumara, Sananda, Narada and Lord Shiva all became detached from the material world, situated in transcendence and realized shanta rasa.

Much later, dasya rasa manifested in Hanuman, the servant of Shri Ramachandra. That same dasya rasa gradually expanded in the northwest and manifested in a great personality named Moses.

In the age of Dvapara, Uddhava and Arjuna became the qualified authorities of sakhya rasa. They preached this rasa throughout the world. Gradually tha rasa expanded up to the Arabian countries and touched the heart of Mohammed, the knower of religious principles.

Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles.

Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with His followers.

Till now, this rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa.

It has been seen tha any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries, therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries.

[bija]

 

As far as Madhurya rasa, I am reasonably certain that Jesus Lila actually begins with Madhurya rasa, and that this rasa is hidden IN Mary as She is hidden in the God's overshadowing power (the bridal chamber in the abode of God).

 

Even understanding the smallest fragment of this rasa is far beyond my position and worthiness. I don't dare to tread further.

 

I know that Mary's conjugal love affair could only be contacted if one is in a rapt ecstatic state something like the kind Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed upon entering Jagganatha Puri. The Mystery of the Incarnation takes place in God's bridal chamber where His love affairs with Mary are hidden by a cloud of God's power .. far far up in the Spiritual Sky.

 

One cannot even see the spiritual sky unless in ecstatic trance, let alone inside the cloud covered effulgent abode of God. quote by Her Servant

Is devotion to Mary prominent in the eastern catholic rite, as it is in the western catholic rite?

 

Could you please share some of your knowledge about which century Marian devotion became popular and elaborated on in the churches?

 

 

Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles.

Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with His followers.

quote by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

We can see here that Jesus Christ had sentiments of son to Father. At the cross he "cried Father forgive them".

 

But from what you are saying this Marian devotion goes further. I would love to know more of the history of this...and it's evolution into Christian thought.

 

It makes me think of the possible spiritual depth of John Paul II.

 

Really this is very interesting for me.

[HerServant]

 

From Moses To Mahaprabhu

By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Even if a person gives up all affection for this world and thinks of the Supreme Lord, He is still not easily achieved. He is controlled and attained by transcendental mellows alone. These mellows are of five types - shanta, dasya, sakya, vatsalya and madhurya.

The first mellow, shanta, is the stage in which the living entity surpasses the pains of material existence and situates himself in transcendence. In that state there is a little happiness, but no feeling of independence. At that time the relationship between the practitioner and the Lord is not yet established.

Dasya rasa is the second mellow. It contains all the ingradients of shanta rasa as well as affection. "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant". This type of relationship is found in dasya rasa. No one cares much for any of the best things of this world unless they are connected with affection. Therefore dasya rasa is superior to shanta rasa in many ways.

Sakya is superior to dasya. In dasya rasa there is a thorn in the form of awe and reverence, but the main ornament in sakya rasa is the feeling of friendship in equality. Among the servants, one who is a friend is superior. There is no doubt about it. In sakya rasa all the wealth of shanta and dasya is included.

It is easy to understand that vatsalya is superior to sakya. A son gives more affection and happiness than any friend. Therefore in vatsalya rasa we find the wealth of four rasas. Although vatsalya rasa is superior to these other rasas, it appears insgnificant before madhurya rasa. There may be many secrets unknown between father and son, but this not the case between husband and wife. Therefore, if we deeply consider, it will be seen that all the above-mentioned rasas attain perfection within madhurya rasa.

If we go through the histories of these five rasas, it is clearly understood that shanta rasa was seen in the beginning days of India. When the soul was not satisfied after performing sacrifices with material ingredients, then transcendentalists like Sanaka, Sanatana, Sanat-kumara, Sananda, Narada and Lord Shiva all became detached from the material world, situated in transcendence and realized shanta rasa.

Much later, dasya rasa manifested in Hanuman, the servant of Shri Ramachandra. That same dasya rasa gradually expanded in the northwest and manifested in a great personality named Moses.

In the age of Dvapara, Uddhava and Arjuna became the qualified authorities of sakhya rasa. They preached this rasa throughout the world. Gradually tha rasa expanded up to the Arabian countries and touched the heart of Mohammed, the knower of religious principles.

Vatsalya rasa manifested throughout India in different forms at different times. Among the different forms, vatsalya mixed with opulence crossed India and appeared in a great personality named Jesus Christ, who was a preacher of Jewish religious principles.

Madhurya rasa first shone brightly in Braj. It is extremely rare for this rasa to enter the hearts of conditioned souls, because this rasa tends to remain with qualified, pure living entities. This confidential rasa was preached by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the moon of Navadvipa, along with His followers.

Till now, this rasa has not crossed beyond India. Recently a scholar from England named Newman realized something about this rasa and wrote a book about it. The people of Europe and America have not been satisfied with vatsalya rasa mixed with opulence as preached by Jesus Christ. I hope, by the grace of the Lord, in a very short time they will become attached to drinking the intoxicating nectar of madhurya rasa.

It has been seen tha any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries, therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries.

 

PAHMO. While Catholic and Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition share many common tenets of theology, Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur's summary above outlines, I believe a distinct difference between the two traditions.

 

First, I think it would be impossible for a Catholic to say any personal rasa relationship with the Lord is superior or inferior to another. So in the case of Dasya Rasa, if one is steeped in Dasya Rasa , i.e., "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant", then he is automatically eternally satisfied. How can one realize a position as eternal servant, if not eternally serving? If one is in the direct company of the Lord as Master then he is also in His company as servant. If the Lord graces a devotee with His presence as Master, could one be dissatisfied? Could a person wish for more than the Lord's company? Could he wish for more than the Lord grants?

 

Secondly, the highest saints in our traditions are those who, by special grace assist Jesus in His Eternal sacrifice. That is, Aspiring to the position of servitor of the Eternal Servitor is a perfect ideal for Catholic and Orthodox. The interesting parallel to Eternal Sacrifice is that Lord Baladeva's position is the Servitor Lord. He is eternally serving Krsna. The theology/dogma of Christian teaching on Jesus is that He is True God and True Man. He is all compassionate toward the living entities and "suffers with them as they suffer". That is, His agony is seeing/experiencing the conditioned souls loss of relationship with God. So many christian saints desire only to assist Jesus in His sacrifice to liberate sinners. Therefore, a certain class of saint in our tradition desire only to mitigate the suffering of the Servitor Lord and assist Him in His sacrifice of bearing the sins of the conditioned souls.

 

In recent time St Pio (Padre Pio) is the most prominent of this kind of saint. See:

 

http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/ENGLISH_index.htm

 

This aspiration of eternal servitor is not limited to Christian tradition.

 

This stage of devotion is known in the east as Bodhisattva.

http://kyky.essortment.com/whatisbodhisat_rfld.htm

 

Christian "bodhisattvas" however are personalists having intense devotion to the 2nd Person of the Godhead.

 

Padre Pio was a Fransciscan monk (Franciscan order). A religious "order" is analagous to "sampradaya".

 

St. Francis, too was a stigmatist (like St Pio) and desired to suffer in place of Christ Jesus.

 

see: http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/

 

But persons of Fransiscan order are not only transmitting Dasya rasa. Fransciscans among MANY other orders are Marian devotees.

 

Every Rasa is Her. Our rasa is Mary and Mary is our rasa.

 

We praise thee, O Mother of God: we confess thee, Mary, ever Virgin. Thou art the Spouse of the Eternal Father: the whole earth venerates thee. Thee all angels and archangels, thrones and principalities serve. Thee all powers and all virtues of Heaven: and all dominations obey. Before thee all the angelic choirs: the Cherubim and Seraphim exulting stand. With unceasing voice every angelic creature proclaims thee: Holy, holy, holy: Mary, Mother of God and Virgin ! Full are the heavens and the earth: of the majesty and glory of the fruit of thy womb. Thee the glorious choir of Apostles: praise as the Mother of their Creator. Thee the white-robed multitude of blessed martyrs: glorify as the Mother of Christ. Thee the glorious army of Confessors: style the Temple of the Trinity. Thee the amiable choir of holy virgins: preaches as the example of virginity and humility. Thee the whole heavenly court: honoureth as Queen. The Church, invoking thee, calls thee throughout the whole world: Mother of the Divine Majesty. Venerating thee as the true Mother of the heavenly King: holy, sweet, and loving. Thou art the Lady of Angels: thou art the gate of Paradise. Thou art the ladder of glory: and of the heavenly kingdom.Thou art the bridal chamber: thou art the ark of piety and grace. Thou art the vein of mercy: thou art the Spouse and the Mother of the Eternal King. Thou art the temple of the treasury of the Holy Ghost: thou art the noble throne of the whole blessed Trinity. Thou art the Mediatrix of God, and the lover of men: the heavenly Illuminatrix of mortal men. Thou art the inspirer of the warriors, the advocate of the poor: the compassionate refuge of sinners. Thou art the distributrix of gifts: the barrier against demons and the proud, and their fear. Thou art the Lady of the world, the Queen of Heaven: after God our only hope. Thou art the salvation of them that call upon thee: the harbor of the shipwrecked, the solace of the wretched, the refuge of those who perish. Thou art the Mother of all the blessed, full of joy after God: the comfort of all the dwellers in Heaven. Thou art the promotrix of the just, the one who gathers together those who stray: the promise of the patriarchs. Thou art the truth of the prophets, the herald and teacher of the Apostles: the Mistress of the Evangelists. Thou art the strength of martyrs, the example of confessors: the honor and the festivity of virgins. Thou hast received into thy womb the Son of God: to deliver exiled man. By thee is driven out the ancient enemy: and the kingdoms of Heaven are opened to believers. Thou sittest together with thy Son: at the right hand of the Father. Do thou intercede for us, O Virgin Mary: with Him who we believe will come to judge us. We beseech thee, therefore, help us, thy servants: who have been redeemed with the Precious Blood of Thy Son. Save thy people, O Lady: that we may be partakers of the inheritance of Thy Son. And rule us: and keep us forever. Day by day, O loving one: we salute thee. And we desire to praise thee forever: with both mind and voice. Deign, O sweet Mary, now and forever: to keep us without sin. Have mercy on us, O loving one: have mercy on us. Let thy great mercy be upon us: because we trust in thee, O Virgin Mary. In thee, O sweet Mary, we hope: do thou defend us forever. Praise becometh thee; empire is thine: to thee be power and glory forever. Amen. -- St. Bonaventure (circa 1250 AD)

 

see:

 

http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/ap/bona/PSALTER2.htm

 

 

http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/ap/bona/PSALTER.htm

 

[HerServant]

 

Is devotion to Mary prominent in the eastern catholic rite, as it is in the western catholic rite?

 

yes. equal. Both have ancient traditions dating as far back as the beginning of the church.

 

 

Could you please share some of your knowledge about which century Marian devotion became popular and elaborated on in the churches?

 

We can see here that Jesus Christ had sentiments of son to Father. At the cross he "cried Father forgive them".

 

The tradition is traced to Jesus' words:

 

"When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home." - John 19:26-27n

 

Mary is also Mother and symbol of the Church in Rev 12:1,5,17. Catholics believe that they greatly benefit from Mary's intercession because of her sinlessness (Jas 5:16)

 

The tradition is there from the beginning. There is a 2nd century inscription on the wall of Mary's home in Ephesus that says "This is the holy place of Mary" . Our tradition tells us that this is the place she settled with John the apostle after Christ ascended.

 

St. Iraneus and St. Ignatius of Antioch formed early Marian doctrine. Ignatius was the successor of St. Paul in Antioch. Historical copies of St. Ignatius' episistles are dated to the 2nd century.

 

Devotion to the Holy Name Mary starts in the bible:

"And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28

 

The name Mary means "full of grace", hence "Hail Mary". The word Hail means ALL bow down, i.e. obeisances. Consider that the deva is saying "all bow down" to Mary. The saints have said the the angel proclaimed "Hail" for all of heaven as well as earth.

 

Invokation of the Holy Name Mary is therefore in scripture as well as in practice in early centuries of the Church.

 

"The name of Mary is the key of the gates of heaven," in the hands of those who devoutly invoke it." St. Ephrem (circa 350 AD)

 

 

But from what you are saying this Marian devotion goes further. I would love to know more of the history of this...and it's evolution into Christian thought.

 

Devotion to Mary is there at the beginning. Use of the Holy Name Mary is prominent from the beginning.

[bija]

Dear Herservant,

thank you for outlining and teaching about the Marian tradition to a deeper understanding for me. I think the depth of the catholic spirituality is truly beautiful. In some ways talking to you makes me feel that it would have been sweet if I had not left the church at the age of sixteen. I did not have the depth of the church taught to me at a young age. Basically my family was not that devout in their catholocism. I know if I ever become a parent I will try to introduce young ones to deep spiritual life. Your stories of your own background are so nice, and the fruit of this background reflects in your very self. This is a great testimony.

 

Please feel free to share at any time with me your understandings and realizations (especially of Marian devotion). It is a true pleasure to hear from you on these subjects. In fact it is a grace (to help me expand and grow in my desire for spiritual brotherhood and respect).

 

 

 

First, I think it would be impossible for a Catholic to say any personal rasa relationship with the Lord is superior or inferior to another. So in the case of Dasya Rasa, if one is steeped in Dasya Rasa , i.e., "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant", then he is automatically eternally satisfied. How can one realize a position as eternal servant, if not eternally serving? If one is in the direct company of the Lord as Master then he is also in His company as servant. If the Lord graces a devotee with His presence as Master, could one be dissatisfied? Could a person wish for more than the Lord's company? Could he wish for more than the Lord grants? quote be herservant

This is the same conception in Gaudiya understanding. Maybe some devotee on this thread could clarify clearer this subject (my realizations are minimal). But the concept is that in the absolute sense one rasa is not higher than the other. In the eternal kingdom of God this relative conception of one mood being higher than the other is not present. For example some one in their eternal identity as friend of Krsna is not pining and feeling inadequate, and wishing to become a paramour. So there is no competition between the rasas.

 

In each consecutive rasa the other rasas exist. For example, in parenthood the mood of friend and servant exists. And so on.

 

The Gaudiya sages have compared rasa in their teaching on a relative level in considering intensity of love. So therefore they have concluded that madhurya rasa (in paramour realtionship) is of the highest intensity. But deep consideration is considered in that the rasas are not competing one with another. Each devotee is fully satisfied in his constitutional nature whether it be as servant, friend, parent, or lover. This is an essential point and very subtle subject.

[HerServant]

 

This is the same conception in Gaudiya understanding. Maybe some devotee on this thread could clarify clearer this subject (my realizations are minimal). But the concept is that in the absolute sense one rasa is not higher than the other. In the eternal kingdom of God this relative conception of one mood being higher than the other is not present. For example some one in their eternal identity as friend of Krsna is not pining and feeling inadequate, and wishing to become a paramour. So there is no competition between the rasas.

 

In each consecutive rasa the other rasas exist. For example, in parenthood the mood of friend and servant exists. And so on.

 

The Gaudiya sages have compared rasa in their teaching on a relative level in considering intensity of love. So therefore they have concluded that madhurya rasa (in paramour realtionship) is of the highest intensity. But deep consideration is considered in that the rasas are not competing one with another. Each devotee is fully satisfied in his constitutional nature whether it be as servant, friend, parent, or lover. This is an essential point and very subtle subject.

 

 

When reading about the rasas (from the Vaisnava sacred literature), it is said that the Madhuraya rasa is the highest stage of realization, and that there are stages of realization, some more advanced than others.

 

There is communion on this point and therefore we agree.

 

It is also clear the Gaudiya has its beatiful and unique teachings (flavors) including Madhurya rasa. We acknowledge, respect, and offer obeisances.

 

There does not directly seem to be something identlcal on the Catholic side.

However, Catholic bridal mystic saints communicate that entering the "bridal chamber" is the final stage for our spiritual journey and an experience of intense even "erotic" love for God is present. In fact, the saints that teach on this say that our highest goal is spousal relationship with God.

 

Still the vivid descriptions of the pastimes of the Lord are present in Gaudiya and not directly and similarly there in Christian tradition, and hence beautifully unique to Vaisnavism.

 

The learned Vaisnavas are of the opinion that Madhurya rasa does not exist on the Christian side. We cannot agree. Our opinion is that if Madhurya rasa is Absolute (Universal) Truth, then it must be contained in Jesus Lila. I believe no ordinary person can enter into the fullness of the Mystery of the Annunciation (the effulgent cloud surrounding the bridal affairs of Mary and God) and maintain or stay in the physical body. That is, it could be only by special Mercy of God that such a person realize the Mystery of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and try to put the experience into words.

 

However, according to our tradition, we can accept the Gaudiya teaching as an "insight into Mystery" that is already present in the Life of Christ.

 

We can accept that Gaudiya Vaisnava teaching on rasas present a unique view of personal relationship experience between devotee and God. That these teachings on relationship with God are shared in Catholic experience. That these teachings are contemporary and assist Catholic aspirants in the way of holiness, and therefore sacred. That these teachings provide insights to Catholic contemplative prayer.

 

Are rasas in Christian teaching? We turn to Mary.

 

" In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary." - John Paul II

 

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

[HerServant]

"I must come and disclose the desires of Jesus with regard to your soul:

Remember that He did not say: “I am the Flower of the gardens, a carefully tended Rose”; but, “I am the Flower of the fields and the Lily of the valleys.” Well, you must be always as a drop of dew hidden in the heart of this beautiful Lily of the valley. The dew-drop – what could be simpler, what more pure? It is not the child of the clouds; it is born beneath the starry sky, and survives but a night. When the sun darts forth its ardent rays, the delicate pearls adorning each blade of grass quickly pass into the lightest of vapour…. There is the portrait of my little Céline! She is a drop of dew, an offspring of Heaven – her true Home. Through the night of this life she must hide herself in the Field-flower’s golden cup; no eye must discover her abode. Happy dewdrop, known to God alone, think not of the rushing torrents of this world! Envy not even the crystal stream which winds among the meadows. The ripple of its waters is sweet indeed, but it can be heard by creatures. Besides, the Field-flower could never contain it in its cup. One must be so little to draw near to Jesus, and few are the souls that aspire to be little and unknown. "Are not the river and the brook,” they urge, “of more use than a dew-drop? Of what avail is it? Its only purpose is to refresh for one moment some poor little field-flower.” Ah! they little know the true Flower of the field. Did they know Him they would understand better Our Lord’s reproach to Martha. Our Beloved needs neither our brilliant deeds nor our beautiful thoughts. Were He in search of lofty ideas, has He not His Angels, whose knowledge infinitely surpasses that of the greatest genius of earth? Neither intellect nor other talents has He come to seek among us … He has become the Flower of the field to show how much He loves simplicity. The Lily of the valley asks but a single dewdrop, which for one night shall rest in its cup, hidden from all human eyes. But when the shadows shall begin to fade, when the Flower of the field shall have become the Sun of Justice, then the dewdrop – the humble sharer of His exile will rise up to Him as love’s vapour. He will shed on her a ray of His light, and before the whole court of Heaven she will shine eternally like a precious pearl, a dazzling mirror of the Divine Sun" -- St Teresa of the Child Jesus

"From the age of three I have never refused our good God anything .. I have never given Him anything but Love and it is with love He repays" -- St. Teresa of the Child Jesus (Carmelite Nun)

 

"Dearest Mother, it seems to me that I am happier than you? I have you for my Mother, and you have no Blessed Virgin to love !?... It is true you are the Mother of Jesus but you have given Him to Me, and He, from the Cross has given you to be our Mother, and thus we are richer than you!? Long ago in your humility you wished to be the little handmaid of the Mother of God; and I poor little creature am not your handmaid but your child! You are the Mother of Jesus and you are also mine!" - St Teresa of the Child Jesus

 

"Titus Brandsma said that the Carmelite vocation is to become another Mary and I think that this sums up our contemplative vocation best of all. She had the most inti.mate relationship with Christ." - from :The Fundamental Elements of Carmelite Spirituality: see http://www.carmelites.ie/Periodicals/citw2000.3.htm