is Krsna an incarnation of Maha-Vishnu?

[Guest guest]

 

YK, can you cite some examples of this wild generalization? This has not been part of my (limited) experience at all. My Gurudev and his acknowledged representatives have never, to my knowledge, dismissed any scripture as being fabricated.

 

To the actual issue at hand: YK, you've pointed out that earlier Vedic scripture is consistent in depicting Krishna as an avatar of Vishnu; you've also acknowledged that each manifestation of Bhagavan is full and complete. So, my question is: why do we belabor this point? When we are talking about things that are sat, chit, ananda, how can there be any question of primacy (in terms of time, or position)? At this point, it becomes an exercise in semantics.

So, let's not talk about who's higher or comes first. --MMd

 

Dear MMD,

I have experience frantic efforts to dubunk all other scriptures and arguments and bring people under "my group" from people. Also, the editor of this site himself rejected Shiva Gita and Anushasana Parva of Mahabharata as - fabricated stuff where Lord Krishna is answering questions of Maharaj Yudhishthira on Lord Shiva. What can i say?

I agree with the Sat, Chit, Ananda, but HKs don't talk about that. Common we know this. Yogis talk about sat, Chit, Ananda, cuz they meditate.

HKs have this bhakta making, book distribution and propaganda programs.

This doesn't mean that I'm unaware of the underlying Bhakti philosophy on rasa, love, devotion, bhava, relation etc., behind the programs, but at times the Sat, Chit, Ananda concepts you tried to touch upon get lost!!

Talk to peopel living in Temples. How much time of theirs go into meditating on and contemplating on Sat, Chit, Ananda.

Regards,

YK.

[Yofu]

 

P.S. my comments on CC is largely due to the rejection of all other scriptures by the HKs except ones that don't line up with their own philosophy. I have given examples of many including Mahabharata and quoted extensively from it and shiva Purana and shiva Gita. But the devotees could never give any explaination on them. They simply rejected them as fabricated. Regards.

 

Hk's? Do you mean Iskcon, GM, or Gaudiyas in general? I don't consider myself a HK as for most people this means Iskcon, and I'm not a member of that organisation. I perfer to be called a Vaisnava.

 

Where's your evidence that Gaudiya's reject Mahabharata?

 

The CC is consistent with the Vedic scriptures, and your rejection of CC because you perceive HK's (?) rejection of Shiva Purana etc is rather silly. It seems you have an axe to grind.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

Text 101:

Brahma-yamale ca –

sruti-smrti-puranadi pancaratra-vidhim vina |

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate ||101||

Translation: It is said in the Brahmayamala that over-zealous concern and practice of Bhakti in disregard of the prescriptions of injunctions of the Sruti, Smrti, Puranas, Pancaratra, etc. become a source of all sorts of troubles. –101-

Commentary: Sri Jiva Gosvami observes that the path of the Sages above stated is recognized in all the Srutis, Smrtis, Purarnas, Pancaratras, etc. which lay down definite codes for the following of the Path. Non-observance of the prescribed course is a source of offense. Here reference to the injunctions of the Sruti, Smrti, Pancaratras, and etc. mean prescription relative to each individual Vaisnava's proper sphere according to his eligibility or adhikara Hence, each Vaisnava will have to select for practice such portions of the prescriptions as apply to his individual case, because in the Bhagavatam Lord Krsna addressing Uddhava says: "Remaining in one's proper sphere is a virtue, and the opposite is the source of evil. Thus, virtues and their opposites have to be construed in the above manner. When non-observance of the prescribed course is spoken of what is meant is their repudiation in a skeptical attitude and not non-observance out of indolence or ignorance. In the Bhagavatam Kavi Yogendra addressing King Nimi says: Oh king! One who takes recourse to this spiritual doctrine of the Bhagavatam has never to meet with any obstacles in his path; and even if he runs with closed eyes, i.e. if he pursues the path of Bhakti in ignorance of the successive stages described and pursues a later

stage before having gone through the earlier one, he does not go astray as in the way of Karma where non-observance of the details in their proper order is a source of sin and consequent sufferings. -101 -

[Guest guest]

 

Hk's? Do you mean Iskcon, GM, or Gaudiyas in general? I don't consider myself a HK as for most people this means Iskcon, and I'm not a member of that organisation. I perfer to be called a Vaisnava.

Where's your evidence that Gaudiya's reject Mahabharata?

The CC is consistent with the Vedic scriptures, and your rejection of CC because you perceive HK's (?) rejection of Shiva Purana etc is rather silly. It seems you have an axe to grind.

umm.. who could have an axe to grind if one met just a bhakta without the political agendas and putting down agendas what Iskcon does to others?

What goes around comes around. You talk of evidence. I was talking to another gentleman called Sumedha on this forum in a similar conversation and I quoted Shiva purana and mahabharata. Editor JNdas came in and commented that a lot of these so called scriptures are fabricated! He won't except part of Padma Purana and Mahabharata!!! What's there to say.

Do you agree with Anushasana Parva of Mahabharata section XVII, what Vasudev Krishna says here about Lord Shiva and and Rishi Upmanyu?

I send this to my Prabhupada disciple friend and he rejects it as offensive and Hindu garbage He further says people who don't agree with Iskcon are envious rascals :/ Anways... That's the only axe to grind. I wish it wasn't!

I have nothing against Vaishnavas. A pure Vaishnava though is hard to find. we should respect those who are trying to become one without putting down others in the process. I've known some highly elevate vaishnava yogis. And there is no question of any doubts there. Vaishnavas have high ideals. I don't mean to offend you in anyway.

Regards,

YK

[Puru Das, das anudas]

YK, The preceeding sloka

Text 101:

Brahma-yamale ca –

sruti-smrti-puranadi pancaratra-vidhim vina |

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate ||101||

Translation: It is said in the Brahmayamala that over-zealous concern and practice of Bhakti in disregard of the prescriptions of injunctions of the Sruti, Smrti, Puranas, Pancaratra, etc. become a source of all sorts of troubles. –101-

 

 

is from Srila Rupa Gosvami's Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu:

http://www.bvml.org/SHBM/brs5.html

Most of us here are aspriing to follow the guidance of the rasacarya, Srila Rupa Gosvami, one of the parishads of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, under the guidance of His current representatives. Under whose guidance do you practice bhakti? Who has taught you to reject Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami's contribution, The Sri Caitanya caritamrta?

http://bvml.org/books/CC/index.html

Sad for you you cannot taste the nectar of Caitanya lila,found in this superlative literature.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura advises us not to waste too much time arguing with persons like yourself, who put so much stock in their own opinions and reject our guru varga. He has written:

 

"Everyone has the right to discuss spiritual topics. Yet people are divided into three categories according to their qualifications. Those who do not posses independent power of discrimination are in the first category and are called neophytes, or those with soft faith. They have no alternative to faith. If they do not accept whatever the compilers of the scriptures write as the order of the Lord, then they fall down. They are qualified only for understanding the gross meanings of the science of Krsna; they have no qualification for understanding the subtle meanings. Until they gradually advance by good association and instruction, they should try to advance under the shelter of faith. Those who have not yet succeeded in connecting faith with argument are second grade persons, or madhyama-adhikaris. And those who are expert in connecting these two are perfect in all respects. They are able to attain perfection by utilizing material resources in their independent endeavors. They are called topmost persons, or uttama-adhikaris...

http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm

 

". . . Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people s spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing one another. When an asslike mentality becomes prominent within the kanistha-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes deity worship in order to establish the worshipable Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered asslike people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to asslike mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices according to one‘s qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both asslike and swanlike people are found amongst the kanistha-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book with respect. If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in regard to the contradictions found in various practices and try to advance further, then they become swanlike persons. Then they are our respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions they have received, they nevertheless remain indifferent and nonsectarian[url="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?vbseourl=forum53/"]

[Guest guest]

Well, the same can be said about yourself too pd. I did not invite you to come and argue. And the conversation wasn't going on with you at all puru das. You just budged in.

This is a false belief amongst you that bhakti can be obtained only through your lineage. This is a false pride that at times turns to arrogance amongst novices. Mira Bai didn't follow BhaktoVinod Thakur, Rupa Goswami or Prabhupada. Nor did Sant Kabir, Goswami Tulsidas, Baba Lal, Guru Nanak, sant Tukaram, Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Vamakshepa, Haidakhan baba, Lahiri Mahasaya, Trailanga Swami, Kanappa, and if we go earlier into time then Tirumular, Markandeya,Rishabha, Pushpadanta, Upamanyu, Vashishtha, Atri, Kannad, Pultsya, Vishwamitra and several other highly elevated spiritual saints. Neverthless they attained the highest goal.

So we see that your lineage is one, but not the only one. If you believe, people who don't come into ur lineage, are novices and should be avoided then avoid them. You are doing the right thing. Propagate that Shankaracharya came to spread false knowledge, Hinduism is garbage, Shiva is a mere "demi" God, Mahabharata where in Vasudev Krishna deals with Lord Shiva is fabricated and his seeking initiation from Rishi Upmanyu and worshipping Shiva for many months is fabricated story, and HKs are the only true spiritual bhakti culture present on this planet. Good luck! Keep on chanting and be happy!

Hare Ram!

 

 

YK, The preceeding sloka

 

Translation: It is said in the Brahmayamala that over-zealous concern and practice of Bhakti in disregard of the prescriptions of injunctions of the Sruti, Smrti, Puranas, Pancaratra, etc. become a source of all sorts of troubles. –101-

 

 

is from Srila Rupa Gosvami's Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu:

Most of us here are aspriing to follow the guidance of the rasacarya, Srila Rupa Gosvami, one of the parishads of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, under the guidance of His current representatives. Under whose guidance do you practice bhakti? Who has taught you to reject Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami's contribution, The Sri Caitanya caritamrta?

 

Sad for you you cannot taste the nectar of Caitanya lila,found in this superlative literature.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura advises us not to waste too much time arguing with persons like yourself, who put so much stock in their own opinions and reject our guru varga. He has written:

 

"Everyone has the right to discuss spiritual topics. Yet people are divided into three categories according to their qualifications. Those who do not posses independent power of discrimination are in the first category and are called neophytes, or those with soft faith. They have no alternative to faith. If they do not accept whatever the compilers of the scriptures write as the order of the Lord, then they fall down. They are qualified only for understanding the gross meanings of the science of Krsna; they have no qualification for understanding the subtle meanings. Until they gradually advance by good association and instruction, they should try to advance under the shelter of faith. Those who have not yet succeeded in connecting faith with argument are second grade persons, or madhyama-adhikaris. And those who are expert in connecting these two are perfect in all respects. They are able to attain perfection by utilizing material resources in their independent endeavors. They are called topmost persons, or uttama-adhikaris...

 

[Guest guest]

 

". . . Differences that arise from places, times, languages, behaviors, foods, dresses, and natures of various communities are incorporated within people s spiritual practices and gradually make one community so completely different from another community that even the consideration that everyone is a human being may cease to exist. Due to these differences there is disagreement, cessation of social intercourse, and fighting, even up to the point of killing one another. When an asslike mentality becomes prominent within the kanistha-adhikaris, they certainly indulge in these things. But if they develop a swanlike mentality, then they do not take part in quarrels; rather, they endeavor to attain a higher level. Madhyama-adhikaris do not quarrel so much about external standards, but they are always attacked by philosophical disagreements. Sometimes they condemn the standards of neophytes and establish their own standards as superior. They condemn the neophytes deity worship in order to establish the worshipable Lord as formless. In such cases, they are also considered asslike people. Otherwise, if they had a swanlike mentality and a desire to attain a higher level, they would respect others practices and inquire about higher topics. Contradictions actually arise only due to asslike mentality. Swanlike persons consider the necessity for different practices according to one‘s qualification, so they are naturally detached from sectarian quarrels. In this regard, it should be understood that both asslike and swanlike people are found amongst the kanistha-adhikaris and madhyama-adhikaris. I do not expect that asslike people will accept this book with respect. If neophytes and madhyama-adhikaris become completely indifferent in regard to the contradictions found in various practices and try to advance further, then they become swanlike persons. Then they are our respectable and dear friends. Although swanlike personalities may accept a particular practice from birth or childhood according to instructions they have received, they nevertheless remain indifferent and nonsectarian

 

I agree with the quotes in principle. But Gaudiya vaishnavism comes to us through organizations like Iskcon who in principle do not follow this. They exhibit this asslike mentality you mentioned. What do you expect the reaction to be like? They don't respect other people's spiritual practices or lineages. Calling Hinduism hodge podge and garbage is one good example. Calling Ramakrishna Paramhansa as fool adn rascal another good example.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

Institutions have their limits. Modern day iskcon has little to do with what its founder-acarya actually taught. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains this nicely in the same essay I already quoted from.

 

". . .Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people...."

http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm

 

Therefore my guru maharaja had to leave the institution established by his guru maharaja, Nitya lila pravistha om visnupada Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura ,and open another own branch of the Caitanya tree. Many of his actual god brothers acted in kind. He has written in his purporto to Cc. Adi lila 12.8:

 

". . . Therefore, we do not belong to any faction. But because the two parties, busy dividing the material assets of the Gaudiya Matha institution, stopped the preaching work, we took up the mission of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Bhaktivinoda Thakura to preach the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world, under the protection of all the predecessor acaryas, and we find that our humble attempt has been successful. We followed the principles especially explained by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentary on the Bhagavad-gita verse vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana. According to this instruction of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, it is the duty of a disciple to follow strictly the orders of his spiritual master. The secret of success in advancement in spiritual life is the firm faith of the disciple in the orders of his spiritual master. The Vedas confirm this:

 

 

yasya deve para bhaktir

 

yatha deve tatha gurau

 

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

 

prakasante mahatmanah

 

 

 

"To one who has staunch faith in the words of the spiritual master and the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the secret of success in Vedic knowledge is revealed." The Krsna consciousness movement is being propagated according to this principle, and therefore our preaching work is going on successfully, in spite of the many impediments offered by antagonistic demons, because we are getting positive help from our previous acaryas. One must judge every action by its result . . . "

 

purport Cc. Adi lila ch.8, Txt 11

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

I agree with the quotes in principle. But Gaudiya vaishnavism comes to us through organizations like Iskcon who in principle do not follow this. They exhibit this asslike mentality you mentioned. What do you expect the reaction to be like? They don't respect other people's spiritual practices or lineages. Calling Hinduism hodge podge and garbage is one good example. Calling Ramakrishna Paramhansa as fool adn rascal another good example.

 

Unfortunately in kali yuga, for lack of Krsna consciousness, there is insufficient love and affection between conditioned souls. My exalted God brother Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SGGM/index.htm

observed:

 

"...Therefore Prabhupada says, “The Krsna consciousness movement can create an exemplary society wherein there is no envy at all." Prabhupada says in the concluding lines of his purport, "One should also have compassion for the people in general who are suffering due to forgetfullness of Krsna.” Who becomes compassionate for the people in general? One who is a completely Krsna conscious person, who sees Krsna everywhere; only he can become compassionate. Otherwise, how can one have compassion? The jiva is suffering. He is Krsna's jiva, so why is he suffering? It's because of his forgetfulness of Krsna. One who sees Krsna and who sess the jiva's relationsip with Krsna, he becomes compassionate. Otherwise, there is no question of compassion. This is most important. Only such a Vaisnava who sees Krsna everywhere is a completely Krsna conscious person. He becomes compassionate."

 

Kindly exmine this last public lecture that Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja gave before his untimely departure from this world.:

A Society Without Envy<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

 

 

by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja

 

 

http://bvml.org/SGGM/aswe.htm

 

I am so sorry that the iskcon wallahs have treated you harshly. They don't much like me either. What can be done? We can only follow the examle of Vidura and see the external energy to be working both internally and externally simultaneously.

 

TEXT 16

svayam dhanur dvari nidhaya mayam

bhratuh puro marmasu tadito 'pi

sa ittham atyulbana-karna-banair

gata-vyatho 'yad uru manayanah

SYNONYMS

svayam--he himself; dhanuh dvari--bow on the door; nidhaya--keeping; mayam--the external nature; bhratuh--brother's; purah--from the palace; marmasu--in the core of the heart; taditah--being afflicted; api--in spite of; sah--he (Vidura); ittham--like this; ati-ulbana--severely; karna--ear; banaih--by the arrows; gata-vyathah--without being sorry; ayat--excited; uru--great; mana-yanah--so thinking.

 

TRANSLATION

Thus being pierced by arrows through his ears and afflicted to the core of his heart, Vidura placed his bow on the door and quit his brother's palace. He was not sorry, for he considered the acts of the external energy to be supreme.

 

PURPORT

 

A pure devotee of the Lord is never perturbed by an awkward position created by the external energy of the Lord. In Bhagavad-gita (3.27) it is stated:

prakrteh kriyamanani

gunaih karmani sarvasah

ahankara-vimudhatma

kartaham iti manyate

A conditioned soul is absorbed in material existence under the influence of different modes of external energy. Absorbed in the false ego, he thinks that he is doing everything by himself. The external energy of the Lord, the material nature, is fully under the control of the Supreme Lord, and the conditioned soul is fully under the grip of the external energy. Therefore, the conditioned soul is fully under the control of the law of the Lord. But, due to illusion only, he thinks himself independent in his activities. Duryodhana was acting under such influence of the external nature, by which he would be vanquished at the ultimate end. He could not accept the sound advice of Vidura, but on the contrary he insulted that great soul, who was the well-wisher of his whole family. Vidura could understand this because he was a pure devotee of the Lord. In spite of being very strongly insulted by Duryodhana's words, Vidura could see that Duryodhana, under the influence of maya, the external energy, was making progress on the path toward his own ruination. He therefore considered the acts of the external energy to be supreme, yet he also saw how the internal energy of the Lord helped him in that particular situation. A devotee is always in a renounced temperament because the worldly attractions can never satisfy him. Vidura was never attracted by the royal palace of his brother. He was always ready to leave the place and devote himself completely to the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Now he got the opportunity by the grace of Duryodhana, and instead of being sorry at the strong words of insult, he thanked him from within because it gave him the chance to live alone in a holy place and fully engage in the devotional service of the Lord. The word gata-vyathah (without being sorry) is significant here because Vidura was relieved from the tribulations which trouble every man entangled in material activities. He therefore thought that there was no need to defend his brother with his bow because his brother was meant for ruination. Thus he left the palace before Duryodhana could act. Maya, the supreme energy of the Lord, acted here both internally and externally."

 

Translation and Purport by

His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 3, Chapter 1, Txt 16

[Guest guest]

Yes today's Iskcon is not what the original acharyas gave. BUT they don't think so. They are only giving pure gyana.

I agree in principle about the difference of what the Acharya gives and what becomes of it. How successful is the preaching under various scandals in iskcon, is hard to say.

But pure bhakti propagation always touches hearts. No doubt.

Nice commentary. Who is your Guru Maharaja?

 

 

Institutions have their limits. Modern day iskcon has little to do with what its founder-acarya actually taught. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains this nicely in the same essay I already quoted from.

 

". . .Sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. When acaryas first ascertain and instruct the Truth, it is not polluted with sectarianism. But the rules and regulations received through disciplic succession regarding the goal and the method of achieving it are changed in due course of time according to the mentality and locale of the people...."

 

Therefore my guru maharaja had to leave the institution established by his guru maharaja, Nitya lila pravistha om visnupada Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura ,and open another own branch of the Caitanya tree. Many of his actual god brothers acted in kind. He has written in his purporto to Cc. Adi lila 12.8:

 

". . . Therefore, we do not belong to any faction. But because the two parties, busy dividing the material assets of the Gaudiya Matha institution, stopped the preaching work, we took up the mission of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Bhaktivinoda Thakura to preach the cult of Caitanya Mahaprabhu all over the world, under the protection of all the predecessor acaryas, and we find that our humble attempt has been successful. We followed the principles especially explained by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentary on the Bhagavad-gita verse vyavasayatmika buddhir ekeha kuru-nandana. According to this instruction of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, it is the duty of a disciple to follow strictly the orders of his spiritual master. The secret of success in advancement in spiritual life is the firm faith of the disciple in the orders of his spiritual master. The Vedas confirm this:

 

 

yasya deve para bhaktir

 

yatha deve tatha gurau

 

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

 

prakasante mahatmanah

 

 

 

"To one who has staunch faith in the words of the spiritual master and the words of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the secret of success in Vedic knowledge is revealed." The Krsna consciousness movement is being propagated according to this principle, and therefore our preaching work is going on successfully, in spite of the many impediments offered by antagonistic demons, because we are getting positive help from our previous acaryas. One must judge every action by its result . . . "

 

purport Cc. Adi lila ch.8, Txt 11

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

Yes today's Iskcon is not what the original acharyas gave. BUT they don't think so. They are only giving pure gyana.

I agree in principle about the difference of what the Acharya gives and what becomes of it. How successful is the preaching under various scandals in iskcon, is hard to say.

But pure bhakti propagation always touches hearts. No doubt.

Nice commentary. Who is your Guru Maharaja?

I am the diksa disciple of His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

http://bvml.org/ACBSP/index.htm

I was so fortunate to meet him in l969, and took harinama initiation from him in 1970 in NYC, and later diksa from his lotus lips in l971. I am also the aspiring siksa follower of Srila B.V. Narayana Maharja,

http://bvml.org/SBNM/index.htm

who I had the great fortune to meet in l998. I am also very fortunate to know and hear from Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Gosvami,

http://bvml.org/SBBTM/index.htm

also my siksa guru.

Under their guidance I am confident that I may one day come a little closer to bhakti, despite my own anarthas.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

You will kindly forgive me for leaving this discussion now. I have to do some arcana seva. I have 5 Deities here, Sacinandana Gaura Hari nim and brass,Natwar Gauranga-brass, and Sri Sri Radha Govinda, demanding my service. They are currently wearing white vesa for Purnima and must be changed. My best wishes to you and my prayers for your spiritual advancement. Where do you live? We will be in Houston with Srila Gurudeva from May 28-June 4th.

http://bvml.org/SBNM/bpi/houston.html

Perhaps you could join us.

[Guest guest]

 

I am the diksa disciple of His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I was so fortunate to meet him in l969, and took diksa from his lotus lips in l971. I am also the aspiring siksa follower of Srila B.V. Narayana Maharja, who I had the great fortune to meet in l998, and have been trying to follow since. Under their guidance I am confident that I may one day come a little closer to bhakti, despite my own anarthas.

 

Please accept my humble obeisances dear Puru Das!

Glory to your Guru maharaj Srila Prabhupada!

 

Also, Something in me said that u r related to Narayan Maharaj before I read your reply. I have a few friends who are disciples of A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami Prabhupada. With whom I tend to disagree on certain points at times in our discussions. Who don't accept accept anything but what Prabhupada said. Then of course there are groups who accept Prabhupada, but don't accept each other.

Anyways, this is all cheap entertainment - fighting and my group, your group thing. Essence is what the Acharyas have given.

 

You wonderfully mentioned about compassion that Srila Prabhupada said about. From the beginning, the first thing that comes to my mind on the pronouciation of the word 'Vaishnava' is - compassion.

I was wondering what you think about the lavish use of words like rascal and fool towards fellow saints like Ramakrishna Paramahansa by SP?

 

Regards,

YK.

[Guest guest]

I wish you all the best with your seva Puru Das ji! Indeed that is more important.

Its fortunate to serve the deities.

I won't be in the US then, but You can write to me at: leondonjack at dot com

Love and regards,

YK.

 

 

You will kindly forgive me for leaving this discussion now. I have to do some arcana seva. I have 5 Deities here, Sacinandana Gaura Hari nim and brass,Natwar Gauranga-brass, and Sri Sri Radha Govinda, demanding my service. They are currently wearing white vesa for Purnima and must be changed. My best wishes to you and my prayers for your spiritual advancement. Where do you live? We will be in Houston with Srila Gurudeva from May 28-June 4th.

Perhaps you could join us.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

You wonderfully mentioned about compassion that Srila Prabhupada said about. From the beginning, the first thing that comes to my mind on the pronouciation of the word 'Vaishnava' is - compassion.

I was wondering what you think about the lavish use of words like rascal and fool towards fellow saints like Ramakrishna Paramahansa by SP?

You didn't ask me, dear Y.K.-ji, but kindly allow me to chime in nonetheless.

 

Going back to my question asking you to cite evidence of Vaishnavas dismissing Shastra as fabricated. My question was a bit pointed. What I really meant was: where is there evidence of great Vaishnava acharyas doing so? My Gurudev certainly does not do so. Rather, he focuses on a very simple definition of religion: that which takes us from a lower position to a higher position.

 

As you observe, the mood of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad was, at times, combative. One could say, that he was in the mood of *his* Gurudev, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati (and even Bhaktisiddanta respectfully paid obeisances from a distance to one whom he considered to be a "sahajiya"), who has been called the "Lion Guru". While it's dangerous to speculate, one could say that the approach that Prabhupad took in spreading Krishna Nam was tailored to the times in which he came. He had a mountain of false ego to blast through, so, dynamite was appropriate.

 

Be that as it may, it is not for anyone to *imitate* the mood of the Acharya. Srila Prabhupad may be able to say who is qualified and who is not, but where is *our* authority?

 

I will not deny your experience, Y.K.. I too have seen neophyte (in my own estimation) devotees, in trying to imitate Srila Prabhupada, sounding like brash, braying donkeys, making bitter something which should be so sweet.

 

I kinda skimmed your discussion with PD and the lengthy quotes. Whether or not it was intended to be applied in this way, I see the quotes as applying universally. I didn't see the inference that *you* are the beginner and the ISKCON devotees are all advanced.

 

As you say, a real Vaishnava is very hard to find. Most of us souls are beginning apirants. As beginners, we must be tolerant, humble and give honor to others. That's how we will make advancement. Offending sincere seekers hurts our own advancement more than anybody else's.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I haven't agreed that each avatara of Vishnu is complete in itself or came with full opulences except shri Krishna. Other avataras came with specific purposes to save the world.

 

Interesting little point for discussion here. It's one thing to point out that avataras do not all come with the full regalia of Lord Vishnu, that is established clearly. But, how can we say that any plenary portion of the Lord is incomplete? Surely, any Avatar of the Lord could, at any time, display His/Her transcendental, Absolute Form in the same fashion that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did on several occasions.

 

I won't look it up at this moment, but, doesn't Krishna say in Bhagavad Gita that every portion of Himself is full and complete?

 

Govinda!

[nalayani]

Along these lines (more or less) I have a question to beg of the Vaisnava scholars here. Is there any independent, historical of archeological data which establish Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu as an actual living human on Earth? if you know this, kindly direct me (Note: this question is for an academic project, not my own spiritual quest) many thanks in advance..nalayani

[Puru Das, das anudas]

 

Interesting little point for discussion here. It's one thing to point out that avataras do not all come with the full regalia of Lord Vishnu, that is established clearly. But, how can we say that any plenary portion of the Lord is incomplete? Surely, any Avatar of the Lord could, at any time, display His/Her transcendental, Absolute Form in the same fashion that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu did on several occasions.

 

I won't look it up at this moment, but, doesn't Krishna say in Bhagavad Gita that every portion of Himself is full and complete?

 

Govinda!

 

This topic is addressed very directly in the Sri Caitanya Caritamrta of Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami, and further elucidated in the translation and purports of Nitya lila pravistha om visnupada paramahamsa astottara sata sri , His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and published in English in l974. I was fortunate enough to be one of the typists who assisted in publishing the set of 17 volumes in only two months.

The significance of the Cc. purports of His Divine Grace are apparant to anyone who reads them with sraddha. The url for this chapter is here:

http://bvml.org/books/CC/adi/02.html

for any interested reader to examine on his own. One of my godbrothers wants me to post the entire chapter, but since suc cut and paste disturbs some readers of these forums, I will post some excerpts in three additional posts for your scrutiny.

your servant,

Puru Das, das anudas

[Puru Das, das anudas]

<center>TEXT 8

 

</center> <center>

svayam bhagavan krsna, visnu-paratattva

purna-jnana purnananda parama mahattva

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> svayam--Himself; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; krsna--Lord Krsna; visnu--of all-pervading Visnu; para-tattva--the ultimate truth; purna-jnana--full knowledge; purna-ananda--full bliss; parama--supreme; mahattva--greatness.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Krsna, the original form of the Personality of Godhead, is the summum bonum of the all-pervading Visnu. He is all-perfect knowledge and all-perfect bliss. He is the Supreme Transcendence.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 9

 

</center> <center>

'nanda-suta' bali' yanre bhagavate gai

sei krsna avatirna caitanya-gosani

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> nanda-suta--the son of Nanda Maharaja; bali'--as; yanre--who; bhagavate--in Srimad-Bhagavatam; gai--is sung; sei--that; krsna--Lord Krsna; avatirna--descended; caitanya-gosani--Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> He whom Srimad-Bhagavatam describes as the son of Nanda Maharaja has descended to earth as Lord Caitanya.

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> According to the rules of rhetorical arrangement for efficient composition in literature, a subject should be mentioned before its predicate. The Vedic literature frequently mentions Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, and therefore these three terms are widely known as the subjects of transcendental understanding. But it is not widely known that what is approached as the impersonal Brahman is the effulgence of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's transcendental body. Nor is it widely known that the Supersoul, or Paramatma, is only a partial representation of Lord Caitanya, who is identical with Bhagavan Himself. Therefore the descriptions of Brahman as the effulgence of Lord Caitanya, the Paramatma as His partial representation, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna as identical with Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu must be verified by evidence from authoritative Vedic literatures. The author wants to establish first that the essence of the Vedas is the visnu-tattva, the Absolute Truth, Visnu, the all-pervading Godhead. The visnu-tattva has different categories, of which the highest is Lord Krsna, the ultimate visnu-tattva, as confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita and throughout the Vedic literature. In Srimad-Bhagavatam the same Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna is described as Nanda-suta, the son of King Nanda. Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami says that Nandasuta has again appeared as Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu because the conclusion of the Vedic literature is that there is no difference between Lord Krsna and Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This the author will prove. If it is thus proved that Sri Krsna is the origin of all tattvas (truths), namely Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, and that there is no difference between Sri Krsna and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, it will not be difficult to understand that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is also the same origin of all tattvas. The same Absolute Truth, as He is revealed to students of different realizations, is called Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

<center>TEXT 23

 

</center> <center>

para-vyomete vaise narayana nama

sad-aisvarya-purna laksmi-kanta bhagavan

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> para-vyomete--in the transcendental world; vaise--sits; narayana--Lord Narayana; nama--of the name; sat-aisvarya--of six kinds of opulences; purna--full; laksmi-kanta--the husband of the goddess of opulence; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Lord Narayana, who dominates the transcendental world, is full in six opulences. He is the Personality of Godhead, the Lord of the goddess of fortune.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 24

 

</center> <center>

veda, bhagavata, upanisat, agama

'purna-tattva' yanre kahe, nahi yanra sama

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> veda--the Vedas; bhagavata--Srimad-Bhagavatam; upanisat--the Upanisads; agama--other transcendental literatures; purna-tattva--full truth; yanre--unto whom; kahe--they say; nahi--there is not; yanra--whose; sama--equal.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> The Personality of Godhead is He who is described as the Absolute Whole in the Vedas, Bhagavatam, Upanisads and other transcendental literatures. No one is equal to Him.

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> There are innumerable authoritative statements in the Vedas regarding the personal feature of the Absolute Truth. Some of them are as follows: (1) From the Rk-samhita (1.22.20):

<center>

tad visnoh paramam padam sada

pasyanti surayo diviva caksur atatam

</center> "The Personality of Godhead Visnu is the Absolute Truth, whose lotus feet all the demigods are always eager to see. Like the sun-god, He pervades everything by the rays of His energy. He appears impersonal to imperfect eyes." (2) From the Narayanatharva-sira Upanisad (1-2): narayanad eva samutpadyante narayanat pravartante narayane praliyante. . . . atha nityo narayanah. . . . narayana evedam sarvam yad bhutam yac ca bhavyam. . . . suddho deva eko narayano na dvitiyo 'sti kascit. "It is from Narayana only that everything is generated, by Him only that everything is maintained, and in Him only that everything is annihilated. Therefore Narayana is eternally existing. Everything that exists now or will be created in the future is nothing but Narayana, who is the unadulterated Deity. There is only Narayana and nothing else."

(3) From the Narayana Upanisad (1.4): yatah prasuta jagatah prasuti. "Narayana is the source from whom all the universes emanate."

(4) From the Hayasirsa Pancaratra: paramatma harir devah. "Hari is the Supreme Lord."

(5) From the Bhagavatam (11.3.34-35):

<center>

narayanabhidhanasya

brahmanah paramatmanah

nistham arhatha no vaktum

yuyam hi brahma-vittamah

</center> "O best of the brahmanas, please tell us of the position of Narayana, who is also known as Brahman and Paramatma."

<center>

sthity-udbhava-pralaya-hetur ahetur asya

yat svapna-jagara-susuptisu sad bahis ca

dehendriyasu-hrdayani caranti yena

sanjivitani tad avehi param narendra

</center> "O King, know Him who is causeless and yet is the cause of creation, maintenance and annihilation. He exists in the three states of consciousness--namely waking, dreaming and deep sleep--as well as beyond them. He enlivens the body, the senses, the breath of life, and the heart, and thus they move. Know Him to be supreme."

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 25

 

</center> <center>

bhakti-yoge bhakta paya yanhara darsana

surya yena savigraha dekhe deva-gana

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> bhakti-yoge--by devotional service; bhakta--the devotee; paya--obtains; yanhara--whose; darsana--sight; surya--the sun-god; yena--like; sa-vigraha--with form; dekhe--they see; deva-gana--the denizens of heaven.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Through their service, devotees see that Personality of Godhead, just as the denizens of heaven see the personality of the sun.

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> The Supreme Personality of Godhead has His eternal form, which cannot be seen by material eyes or mental speculation. Only by transcendental devotional service can one understand the transcendental form of the Lord. The comparison is made here to the qualifications for viewing the personal features of the sun-god. The sun-god is a person who, although not visible to our eyes, is seen from the higher planets by the demigods, whose eyes are suitable for seeing through the glaring sunshine that surrounds him. Every planet has its own atmosphere according to the influence of the arrangement of material nature. It is therefore necessary to have a particular type of bodily construction to reach a particular planet. The inhabitants of earth may be able to reach the moon, but the inhabitants of heaven can reach even the fiery sphere called the sun. What is impossible for man on earth is easy for the demigods in heaven because of their different bodies. Similarly, to see the Supreme Lord one must have the spiritual eyes of devotional service. The Personality of Godhead is unapproachable by those who are habituated to speculation about the Absolute Truth in terms of experimental scientific thought, without reference to the transcendental vibration. The ascending approach to the Absolute Truth ends in the realization of impersonal Brahman and the localized Paramatma but not the Supreme Transcendental Personality.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 26

 

</center> <center>

jnana-yoga-marge tanre bhaje yei saba

brahma-atma-rupe tanre kare anubhava

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> jnana--of philosophical speculation; yoga--and of mystic yoga; marge--on the paths; tanre--Him; bhaje--worship; yei--who; saba--all; brahma--of impersonal Brahman; atma--and of the Supersoul (Paramatma); rupe--in the forms; tanre--Him; kare--do; anubhava--perceive.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Those who walk the paths of knowledge and yoga worship only Him, for it is Him they perceive as the impersonal Brahman and localized Paramatma.

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> Those who are fond of mental speculation (jnana-marga) or want to meditate in mystic yoga to find the Absolute Truth must approach the impersonal effulgence of the Lord and His partial representation respectively. Such persons cannot realize the eternal form of the Lord.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 27

 

</center> <center>

upasana-bhede jani isvara-mahima

ataeva surya tanra diyeta upama

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> upasana-bhede--by the different paths of worship; jani--I know; isvara--of the Supreme Lord; mahima--greatness; ataeva--therefore; surya--the sun; tanra--of Him; diyeta--was given; upama--simile.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Thus one may understand the glories of the Lord through different modes of worship, as the example of the sun illustrates.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 28

 

</center> <center>

sei narayana krsnera svarupa-abheda

eka-i vigraha, kintu akara-vibheda

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> sei--that; narayana--Lord Narayana; krsnera--of Lord Krsna; svarupa--original form; abheda--not different; eka-i--one; vigraha--identity; kintu--but; akara--of bodily features; vibheda--difference.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Narayana and Sri Krsna are the same Personality of Godhead, but although They are identical, Their bodily features are different.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 29

 

</center> <center>

inhota dvi-bhuja, tinho dhare cari hatha

inho venu dhare, tinho cakradika satha

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> inhota--this one; dvi-bhuja--two arms; tinho--He; dhare--manifests; cari--four; hatha--hands; inho--this one; venu--flute; dhare--holds; tinho--He; cakra-adika--the wheel, etc.; satha--with.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> This Personality of Godhead [sri Krsna] has two hands and holds a flute, whereas the other [Narayana] has four hands, with conch, wheel, mace and lotus.

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> Narayana is identical to Sri Krsna. They are in fact the same person manifested differently, like a high court judge who is differently situated in his office and at home. As Narayana the Lord is manifested with four hands, but as Krsna He is manifested with two hands.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 30

 

</center> <center>

narayanas tvam na hi sarva-dehinam

atmasy adhisakhila-loka-saksi

narayano 'ngam nara-bhu-jalayanat

tac capi satyam na tavaiva maya

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> narayanah--Lord Narayana; tvam--You; na--not; hi--certainly; sarva--all; dehinam--of the embodied beings; atma--the Supersoul; asi--You are; adhisa--O Lord; akhila-loka--of all the worlds; saksi--the witness; narayanah--known as Narayana; angam--plenary portion; nara--of Nara; bhu--born; jala--in the water; ayanat--due to the place of refuge; tat--that; ca--and; api--certainly; satyam--highest truth; na--not; tava--Your; eva--at all; maya--the illusory energy.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> "O Lord of lords, You are the seer of all creation. You are indeed everyone's dearest life. Are You not, therefore, my father, Narayana? Narayana refers to one whose abode is in the water born from Nara [Garbhodakasayi Visnu], and that Narayana is Your plenary portion. All Your plenary portions are transcendental. They are absolute and are not creations of maya."

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> This statement, which is from Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.14.14), was spoken by Lord Brahma in his prayers to Lord Krsna after the Lord had defeated him by displaying His mystic powers. Brahma had tried to test Lord Krsna to see if He were really the Supreme Personality of Godhead playing as a cowherd boy. Brahma stole all the other boys and their calves from the pasturing grounds, but when he returned to the pastures he saw that all the boys and calves were still there, for Lord Krsna had created them all again. When Brahma saw this mystic power of Lord Krsna's, he admitted defeat and offered prayers to the Lord, addressing Him as the proprietor and seer of everything in the creation and as the Supersoul who is within each and every living entity and is dear to all. That Lord Krsna is Narayana, the father of Brahma, because Lord Krsna's plenary expansion Garbhodakasayi Visnu, after placing Himself on the Garbha Ocean, created Brahma from His own body. Maha-Visnu in the Causal Ocean and Ksirodakasayi Visnu, the Supersoul in everyone's heart, are also transcendental expansions of the Supreme Truth.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

<center>TEXT 47

 

</center> <center>

krsna kahena----brahma, tomara na bujhi vacana

jiva-hrdi, jale vaise sei narayana

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> krsna--Lord Krsna; kahena--says; brahma--O Brahma; tomara--your; na--not; bujhi--I understand; vacana--speech; jiva--of the living entity; hrdi--in the heart; jale--in the water; vaise--sits; sei--that; narayana--Lord Narayana.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Krsna said, "Brahma, I cannot understand what you are saying. Lord Narayana is He who sits in the hearts of all living beings and lies down in the waters of the Karana Ocean."

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 48

 

</center> <center>

brahma kahe----jale jive yei narayana

se saba tomara amsa----e satya vacana

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> brahma--Lord Brahma; kahe--says; jale--in the water; jive--in the living being; yei--who; narayana--Narayana; se--They; saba--all; tomara--Your; amsa--plenary part; e--this; satya--truthful; vacana--word.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> Brahma replied, "What I have said is true. The same Lord Narayana who lives on the waters and in the hearts of all living beings is but a plenary portion of You."

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 49

 

</center> <center>

karanabdhi-garbhodaka-ksirodaka-sayi

maya-dvare srsti kare, tate saba mayi

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> karana-abdhi--Karanodakasayi Visnu; garbha-udaka--Garbhodakasayi Visnu; ksira-udaka-sayi--Ksirodakasayi Visnu; maya-dvare--with the material energy; srsti--creation; kare--They do; tate--therefore; saba--all; mayi--connected with maya.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> "The Karanodakasayi, Garbhodakasayi and Ksirodakasayi forms of Narayana all create in cooperation with the material energy. In this way They are attached to maya."

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 50

 

</center> <center>

sei tina jala-sayi sarva-antaryami

brahmanda-vrndera atma ye purusa-nami

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> sei--these; tina--three; jala-sayi--lying in the water; sarva--of all; antah yami--the Supersoul; brahma-anda--of universes; vrndera--of the multitude; atma--Supersoul; ye--who; purusa--purusa; nami--named.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> "These three Visnus lying in the water are the Supersoul of everything. The Supersoul of all the universes is known as the first purusa."

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 51

 

</center> <center>

hiranya-garbhera atma garbhodaka-sayi

vyasti-jiva-antaryami ksirodaka-sayi

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> hiranya-garbhera--of the total of the living entities; atma--the Supersoul; garbha-udaka-sayi--Garbhodakasayi Visnu; vyasti--the individual; jiva--of the living entity; antah-yami--Supersoul; ksira-udaka-sayi--Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> "Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of the aggregate of living entities, and Ksirodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of each individual living being."

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 52

 

</center> <center>

e sabhara darsanete ache maya-gandha

turiya krsnera nahi mayara sambandha

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> e--this; sabhara--of the assembly; darsanete--in seeing; ache--there is; maya-gandha--connection with maya; turiya--the fourth; krsnera--of Lord Krsna; nahi--there is not; mayara--of the material energy; sambandha--connection.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> "Superficially we see that these purusas have a relationship with maya, but above them, in the fourth dimension, is Lord Krsna, who has no contact with the material energy."

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> The three purusas--Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu--all have a relationship with the material energy, called maya, because through maya They create the material cosmos. These three purusas, who lie on the Karana, Garbha and Ksira oceans, are the Supersoul of everything that be: Karanodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of the collective universes, Garbhodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of the collective living beings, and Ksirodakasayi Visnu is the Supersoul of all individual living entities. Because all of Them are somehow attracted to the affairs of the material energy, They can be said to have some affection for maya. But the transcendental position of Sri Krsna Himself is not even slightly tinged by maya. His transcendental state is called turiya, or the fourth-dimensional stage.

 

 

<hr>

 

<center>TEXT 53

 

</center> <center>

virad hiranya-garbhas ca

karanam cety upadhayah

isasya yat tribhir hinam

turiyam tat pracaksate

</center> <center>SYNONYMS

 

</center> virat--the virat manifestation; hiranya-garbhah--the hiranyagarbha manifestation; ca--and; karanam--the karana manifestation; ca--and; iti--thus; upadhayah--particular designations; isasya--of the Lord; yat--that which; tribhih--these three; hinam--without; turiyam--the fourth; tat--that; pracaksate--is considered.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center> " 'In the material world the Lord is designated as virat, hiranyagarbha and karana. But beyond these three designations, the Lord is ultimately in the fourth dimension.' "

<center>PURPORT

 

</center> The phenomenal manifestation of the Supreme Whole, the numinous soul of everything, and the cause or causal nature are all but designations of the purusas, who are responsible for material creation. The transcendental position surpasses these designations and is therefore called the position of the fourth dimension. This is a quotation from Sridhara Svami's commentary on the Eleventh Canto, Fifteenth Chapter, verse 16, of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

 

<hr>

[Puru Das, das anudas]

If you are not a follower or disciple of, His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupasda these next two veses can easily be misunderstood. If you have faith in his realization and competence to purport the slokas left for us by Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami, then there is no problem to accept the preiviously posted information and at least intellecturally understand who is Visnu, who is Narayana and who is Krsna, otherwise not.

 

2+2=4 or 2+2=5. Our addition comes to 4 and we are ready, willing, able and happy to accept the vanih of our gurudeva, who never lied to us on any issue, never deceived us in anyway, and only showed us love and affection and is our eternal ever well wisher.

ys

pda

 

TEXT 9

keha ta' acarya ajnaya, keha ta' svatantra

sva-mata kalpana kare daiva-paratantra

SYNONYMS

keha ta'--some; acarya--the spiritual master; ajnaya--upon His order; keha ta'--some; sva-tantra--independently; sva-mata--their own opinions; kalpana kare--they concoct; daiva-paratantra--under the spell of maya.

TRANSLATION

Some of the disciples strictly accepted the orders of the acarya, and others deviated, independently concocting their own opinions under the spell of daivi-maya.

PURPORT

This verse describes the beginning of a schism. When disciples do not stick to the principle of accepting the order of their spiritual master, immediately there are two opinions. Any opinion different from the opinion of the spiritual master is useless. One cannot infiltrate materially concocted ideas into spiritual advancement. That is deviation. There is no scope for adjusting spiritual advancement to material ideas.

 

 

TEXT 10

acaryera mata yei, sei mata sara

tanra ajna langhi' cale, sei ta' asara

SYNONYMS

acaryera--of the spiritual master (Advaita Prabhu); mata--opinion; yei--what is; sei--that; mata--opinion; sara--active principle; tanra--his; ajna--order; langhi'--transgressing; cale--becomes; sei--that; ta'--however; asara--useless.

TRANSLATION

The order of the spiritual master is the active principle in spiritual life. Anyone who disobeys the order of the spiritual master immediately becomes useless.

PURPORT

Here is the opinion of Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami. Persons who strictly follow the orders of the spiritual master are useful in executing the will of the Supreme, whereas persons who deviate from the strict order of the spiritual master are useless.

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TEXT 48

Brahma replied, "What I have said is true. The same Lord Narayana who lives on the waters and in the hearts of all living beings is but a plenary portion of You."

 

Dear Puru das,

Pamho!

Kindly enlighten me on the source of Cc. I'm not an expert on it. The above mentioned text is from Cc as you have stated. But I don't fully know the correct history of Cc. It is a gaudiya scripture alright written not longer ago than 400 years. How was it conceived?

I would like to know the exact source of this dialogue between krsna and Brahma and how was it conceived.

Thanks.

regards,

YK.

[Puru Das, das anudas]

see my last post, computasura ate this one.