Varnashram-dharma - further answers

[anadi]

Dear Sucandra, dandavats

 

as I said

 

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style="height: 38.65pt;"><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; height: 38.65pt;">I reject the practicing and proliferation of dvd, not because is an invention of “Prabhupada” going back to some ideas of the Gaudiya Mat founder , but because this is against bhakti, as taught in the original Gaudiya Vaishnavism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

Anadi, dandavats, thing is that lets say you become a grhastha Vaishnava and your children also eventually want to get married. Is it ok for you that all those grhastha Vaishnavas go for work to the karmis in order to pay the bills and maintain their families?

Dear Sucandra,

As you put it, it must be horrible to work for „the karmis”.

But as a married person...you always work for „the karmis” ( in the varna-ashram system too).

Horrible would be to practice a profession that goes against the four principles of freedom...

and the matter of fact you work to sattisfy your own material desires, due to your material attachments, until you come to the level of renunciation, and you retreat in the holy dhama and dedicate yourself entirely to bhajana under the proficient advise of your bhajana shiksha guru.

You also said:

But this is what you're teaching. This is of course demoniac to tell young devotees listen in our movement, you can be only monks and if you want to have family, this is not possible, because family require money and where should this come?

1. Why should be demoniac to tell young devotees to remain monks. Demoniac is to think that you are the enjoyer.

2. I never said all the young devotees should remain monks. Everything is freely. One can follow one path or another... but... one should not forget that there is an after family life: one should let behind family and society and dedicate entirely to bhajan.

For example:

Jagadisha Dasa Babaji came of a respectable Brahmin family of Vardhaman in <st1:place w:st="Bengal</st1:place">. He was a very successful doctor. He used to practice in Kalana. At the age of fifty he dook initiation from siddha Sri Bhagavan dasa babaji of Kalana. Soon after that, he renounced the world and came to Vrindavan, where he lived for some time in the old <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st=" on="">Bengal</st1:place>. He was a very successful doctor. He used to practice in Kalana. At the age of fifty he dook initiation from siddha Sri Bhagavan dasa babaji of Kalana. Soon after that, he renounced the world and came to Vrindavan, where he lived for some time in the old <st1:place w:st="on">temple </st1:place>:PMadana Mohan</st1:place>, but later shifted to a small cottage in Kaliya-daha.

 

 

Baba’s life was simple and austere. He lived on madhu-kari (begging eatables from the inhabitants of Vrindavan) and did not take salt. Bhagavan das babaji ordinarily advised his disciples to do only Harinama-japa, but he considered Jagadish das to be above the ordinary in devotion. Therefore he initiated him in Raganuga-bhajan. Practicing bhajana according to the raganuga sadhana bhakti, he used to be mostly absorbed in deep meditation. Sometimes he would be so absorbed that he would be unaware even of the food kept befor him by his disciple for eating and it would remain untouched till he regainded outer consciousness. Sometimes people would come to see him, perform dandavat and sit down before him but he would not know about their arrival until the absorption was over and someone told him about it. He would then feel very uncomfortable and think that he had commited an aparadha (offence) against the visitors. To guard himself against the aparadha, thereafter, when he sat outside his cottage; he put shalagrama shila (a round black stone found in river Gandaki and worshipped by devotees as a form of Vishnu) in front of him so that the dandavat (obeissances) might be to shalagrama, not to him.

Whenever Jagadisha dasa baba had any difficulty in lila-samarana (remembering the pastimes of the Lord) he sought the favor of the Vaishnavas, or of the raja (the holy dust of Vrindavan). One day, when he had not revelation of lila, he went as usual to Shringar-vat for madhu-kari in the evening. Premananda Gosvami, who was at that time the adhikari (presiding authority) of Sringar-vat said, “Baba, what is the matter? Why do I not see the usual exaltation and brightness on your face today?”

Baba replied, “What shall I say? My stars are dull today. I stay in need of your benediction.”

Gosvami-ji understood what he meant. He advised him to roll in the raja. He began to roll on the ground in the courtyard of Shringar-vat. As he was doing so, he began to feel that the flood-gate of the current of Krishna lila, which had been closed against him, had to reopened.

 

[anadi]

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">Originally Posted by suchandra

Anadi, dandavats, thing is that lets say you become a grhastha Vaishnava and your children also eventually want to get married. Is it ok for you that all those grhastha Vaishnavas go for work to the karmis in order to pay the bills and maintain their families? But this is what you're teaching. This is of course demoniac to tell young devotees listen in our movement you can be only monks and if you want to have family this is not possible because family require money and where should this come?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Reply:

All these points have been refuted in the previous post.

You also wrote:

I think it is misunderstanding bhakti to think that daiva-varnashrama is outside of bhakti. If it is userful in the service of sadhana, then it is part of bhakti.

 

My answer:

The shastra says clearly that varnashram-dharma has nothing to do with bhakti, namely is outside of bhakti:

At the end of His Gita Sri Krishna says that one should discard all kinds of dharma

and take him alone as shelter - atma-nikśepa– offering the self to the Lord - which is part of sharanagati, the doorway to bhakti.

Not varnashram dharma is useful for bhakti, but sharanagati.

Here are again the quotes, that seemingly you didn’t read or ... understand:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

Renounce any kind of duties pertaining this world - sarva-dharmān parityajya,

Take Me alone as your shelter - mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

Don’t worry - mā śucaḥ

I will deliver you - ahaḿ tvāḿ mokṣayiṣyāmi

from all sinful reactions (to your deeds) - sarva-pāpebhyo

Caitanya Mahaprabhu also rejected varnashram dharma, and His followers too. It may arise the question if one really follows Mahaprabhu... and in which extend.

To refresh you memory here they are again the quotes:

There are six symptoms of self-surrender:

(1) anukulyasya sańkalpa –

The vow (sankalpa) to accept those things that are favourable- Anukulyasya (for the spiritual life, for developing of divine love prema).

 

(2) Pratikulyasya-varjana – (the vow) to reject those things that are unfavourable (for the spiritual life, for developing of divine love prema).

 

(3) rakśiṣyatiti viśvaso – to have firm faith –vishvas that the Lord is the only protector, that there is no protector other than the Lord, and that one cannot obtain real protection by any other activity, or anyone else .

(4) goptṛtve varaṇaṁ – to have firm faith that the Lord is the real maintainer.

(5) atma-nikśepa– offering the self to the Lord, expressed in this attitude: “I am incapable of doing anything independently. Unless the Lord desires, no one can do anything.” Devotees who have no other resort (atmaniksepa) have this kind of faith.

 

(6) karpaṇye – to be humble, expressed as follows: “I am very fallen and insignificant.”

Out of compassion for the fallen souls, Sri Krisna Caitanya came to this world with His personal associates and divine abode

Sri-kṛṣṇa-caitanya prabhu jīve doyā kori’

swa-pārṣada swīya dhāma saha avatari’

To freely distribute ecstatic love of God, which is very difficult to obtain, He taught saranagati, the six limbs of surrender to the al Attractive One.

This saranagati is the very life of the true devotee

atyanta durlabha prema koribāre dāna

śikhaya śarańāgati bhakatera prāńa

 

Humility, dedication of the self,

acceptance of the Lord as one's only maintainer and protector

 

dainya, ātma-nivedana, goptṛtve varańa

‘avaśya rakṣībe kṛṣṇa’—viśvāsa, pālana

Accepting things favorable for devotional service, an rejecting the unfavorable.

bhaki-anukūla-mātra käryera svīkara

bhakti-pratikūla-bhāva varjanāṅgikāra

The prayers of anyone who submits unconditionally to six-fold surrender, are heard by

the youthful son of Nanda Maharaja, the all attractive form of the Lord - Sri Krishna

[brajeshwara das]

Eating isn't a part of bhakti, unless you offer it to the Lord. Then it becomes prasadam, and a part of your bhakti. Alone varnashrama dharma or anything else is sepparate from bhakti unless you connect it to the Lord. Renouncing all duties pertaining to the world doesn't mean renounce all duties pertaining to the Lord. If Guru says to do something, we do that. If he says institute daiva varnashrama dharma, then doing so is bhakti because we are following the order of the spiritual master. Through surrender we follow.

[anadi]

Dear brajeshwara dasa, Dandavat

You wrote:

“Eating isn't a part of bhakti, unless you offer it to the Lord. Then it becomes prasadam, and a part of your bhakti.”

Reply:

Eating is never a part of bhakti.

Acceptance of prasadam (mercy) also in the form of the remnants of the Lord, when done in the proper mood and meditation is part of sadhana bhakti, otherwise is ajnata sukriti.

You also wrote

“Alone varnashrama dharma or anything else is separate from bhakti unless you connect it to the Lord.”

Reply:

There is a logic falacy: You don't connect something to the Lord. You try to connect yourself to Him through a process.

The karmic process of vanashram dharma is not a way to connect himself with the Lord. One who is practicing one limb of sadhana bhakti as chanting the Holy Names of the Lord and many other processes which are not limbs at bhakti, should not deceive himself in thinking that whatever else he does would connect Him with the Lord, i.e it would be sadhana bhakti.

You also wrote

Renouncing all duties pertaining to the world doesn't mean renounce all duties pertaining to the Lord.

Reply:

Who said that renouncing all duties pertaining to the world would mean one should renounce one’s duties pertaining to the Lord. (Varnashram dharma is not a duty pertaining to the Lord)

There is only one duty: to serve the Lord out of love (and Varnashram dharma is not in this category).

This service out of love is called divine devotional service. So as long as one has not love, one cannot do bhakti.

As such one is engaged in sadhana bhakti, a kind of service on the material platform whose goal is to awake the divine love – bhAvA by which one can starts to do divine devotional service.

This is our duty in the beginning: to perform sadhana bhakti so that the dormant love may wake up.

In this connection one should understand who is the best servant?

The best servant is the one that loves the Lord at most.

Shastra says that Radha is the best servant of the Lord, because Her love is the most exalted.

And in this connection Krishna can be best pleased by us, if we serve the best servant.

 

That means, if we want to give Krisna the highest pleasure, we should become maid servants of Radha, because Her service, which is the expression of the most exalted divine love, is the highest.

We become maid servants of Radha only by practicing a special type of raganuga sadhana bhakti, namely kamanuga sadhana bhakti, and one must get initiation in this type of sadhana.

The problem is that, if one’s guru never got initiated in this type of sadhana, how can his disciples and the whole line of disciples be initiated in it? He never practiced, and as such he may pretend raganuga sadhana comes automatically, which the traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta doesn’t say.

 

 

You also wrote

If Guru says to do something, we do that. If he says institute daiva varnashrama dharma, then doing so is bhakti because we are following the order of the spiritual master.

 

Reply:

I never heard of this bhakti Siddhanta, can you please bring evidence for the fact that

1. if guru tells you to practice something else than a limb of sadhana bhakti,

2. than what you practice, and is not a limb of sadhana bhakti,

3. becomes automatically a limb of sadhana bhakti, because he said, you should practice it.

[suchandra]

 

 

1. Why should be demoniac to tell young devotees to remain monks. Demoniac is to think that you are the enjoyer.

2. I never said all the young devotees should remain monks.

.......Whenever Jagadisha dasa baba had any difficulty in lila-samarana (remembering the pastimes of the Lord) he sought the favor of the Vaishnavas, or of the raja (the holy dust of Vrindavan). .............

 

dear Anadi, I said "demoniac" because in the West we don't have the situation of Jagadisha dasa baba who lived in the Holy Dham. If Vaishnava children in the West dont become monks they are enforced to enter kali-yuga society and enforced to associate with all those dangerous entanglements of kail-yuga. If you insist to not install a safety belt called DVD, which enables people to stay in the association of Vaishnavas you just repeat what happened so many times, sending your God given children to kali's slaughterhouse if they are not willing to live like the six goswamis.

Obviously you didnt consider it necessary to carefully study the situation of Vaishnava children in the West past years and how they clearly demand for good material education, good job and marriage although being brought up in Vaishnava families. You suggest to simply reject ones kids and let them enter kali-yuga when they dont agree to become monks. This might be your subjective conviction but in order to fullfill Lord Caitanya's vision of globally spreading the Holy Name we have to think for all the people and not just for our own situation. If people see you can nicely raise your children without being worried what will happen when they are 16 then this is called accepting what is favourable for devotional service. If people see in large scale kids of Vaishnavas turning out to become rejects of their own parents, this you call good preaching and successfully spreading the Holy Name? Please, think according time and circumstance and not in the paradigm of dogmas.

[brajeshwara das]

Anadi, it is all about the proper mood. All our activities could be bhakti if we had the proper mood. You wish to differentiate some activities from others, Shovelling sand from one place to another is bhakti if I am following the instructions of my bona fide spiritual master in the proper mood. So please get over the specifics of the action. Abandon all worldly activities and simple engage in the the Divine service of the Lord by serving His servants. And if the instructions from His servants is to take a role in a play as a sudra, then we should happily do that if we have the proper mood.

[anadi]

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr style=""><td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;">

1. Why should be demoniac to tell young devotees to remain monks. Demoniac is to think that you are the enjoyer.

2. I never said all the young devotees should remain monks.

.......Whenever Jagadisha dasa baba had any difficulty in lila-samarana (remembering the pastimes of the Lord) he sought the favor of the Vaishnavas, or of the raja (the holy dust of Vrindavan). .............

 

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Dear sucandra, dandavats,

as you quoted mea above you said:

"dear Anadi, I said "demoniac" because in the West we don't have the situation of Jagadisha dasa baba who lived in the Holy Dham. If Vaishnava children in the West dont become monks they are enforced to enter kali-yuga society and enforced to associate with all those dangerous entanglements of kail-yuga."

reply:

1. Jaghadisha dasa first lived outside of the Holy Dham and was a successful doctor.

2. Any society in any yuga (maybe except krit-yuga) is bad, except the society of the vaishnavas, and all other societies are more ... or less demonic, because they all aim to sense enjoyment.

 

you added:

 

"If you insist to not install a safety belt called DVD, which enables people to stay in the association of Vaishnavas"

 

Reply:

 

1. DVD is no safety belt, and does not enables one the stay in the association of the realized vaishnavas. A realized Gaudiya Vaishnava will not bear the sepparation from Vrindavan.

2. Following the teachings of Sri Caitanya is the safety belt, following the teachings of his specially empowered writers of Gaudiya Bhakti is the safety belt.

Following these theachings and preaching these teachings to your children is safety belt:

- live in the society of the spiritual realized vaishnavas – sadhu sanga

- chant the holy name – name kirtana

- hear and study the lilas of the Lord – bhagavat shravan

- live in the holy land of mathura mandala - mathura vasa

- worship the murti of the Lord with faith – sri murtira shraddhaya sevan.

And follow sharanagati.... is safety belt.

 

you also wrote:

"you just repeat what happened so many times, sending your God given children to kali's slaughterhouse if they are not willing to live like the six goswamis."

 

Reply:

If you yourself don’t practice and follow accordingly, how can you ask it from your children?

Bad association is always possible. DVD is not an exception as long as obviously it is colored by the material gunas.

The so called dvd gives not automatically association with the vaishnavas, but with sense enjoyers that under circumstances may pose as vaishnavas, because they would chant the holy name, but their chanting will never become pure as long as they are entangled in material activities.

 

You added:

 

Obviously you didn’t consider it necessary to carefully study the situation of Vaishnava children in the West past years and how they clearly demand for good material education, good job and marriage although being brought up in Vaishnava families.

 

Reply:

 

As long as they long for good material education, good job and marriage, it means that either they were not properly educated or didn't have enough bhakti sukriti. And even under these circumstances they still may choose a job which respects the four principles of liberation.

 

you wrote:

You suggest to simply reject ones kids and let them enter kali-yuga when they dont agree to become monks.

 

reply:

1. They entered kali-yuga before their birth. This was their own made destiny.

2. To engage in bhakti practices one does neither need to be a monk nor to follow the practices of varanashram dharma, one needs only bhakti-faith, which comes out of bhakti-sukriti not varanashram dharma-sukriti.

 

you wrote:

... in order to fullfill Lord Caitanya's vision of globally spreading the Holy Name we have to think for all the people and not just for our own situation.

 

reply:

Think first of yourself, a drawn person cannot save another drawn person.

you wrote:

If people see you can nicely raise your children without being worried what will happen when they are 16 then this is called accepting what is favourable for devotional service.

reply:

It depends on the bhakti-sukriti you gave them, and mostly the bhakti-sukriti from their previous lives, not from varnashram dharma sukriti.

you wrote:

If people see in large scale kids of Vaishnavas turning out to become rejects of their own parents, this you call good preaching and successfully spreading the Holy Name?

reply:

If such kids of vaishnavas are rejected by thier own parents, it means, either thier parents had not enough time to educate them, or their education was bad, or those kids had not enough sukriti for bhaki

 

you wrote:

Please, think according time and circumstance and not in the paradigm of dogmas.

 

Reply:

 

In any time and any circustances one who desires to follow Gaudiya Vaishnavism, should follow the teachings of Sri Caitanya and His empowered representatives of Vrindavan.

Their teachings are not dogmas, but following DVD can become a future Iskcon dogma, having no suport from the shastra.

[anadi]

Dear brajeswara das, dandavats

You wrote

Anadi, it is all about the proper mood. All our activities could be bhakti if we had the proper mood.

Reply:

This level, you describe here is at least bhAvA-bhakti, when the sadhaka attained the proper mood and accordingly is attached to bhakti activities as described by Srila Rupa Gosvami.

You wrote

You wish to differentiate some activities from others,

Reply:

To differentiate depends on one’s discrimination power or intelligence.

Krishna Himself says that He gives one buddhy or the discrimination power by which one perform those activities that brings one to His abode.

Not all the activities lead to the same results.

Not all sadhanas are bhakti sadhana.

Sri Krishna says:

ye yathAmAM prapadyante tAMs tathaiva bhajAmy aham

The result of what you get, depends on (sadhana) the way you worship, or meditate on Me.

You wrote

Shovelling sand from one place to another is bhakti if I am following the instructions of my bona fide spiritual master…

Reply:

1. This is not stated in the shastra.

2. Your bona fide might be for another sadhaka not bona fide.

You wrote

Shovelling sand from one place to another is bhakti … if we had the proper mood.

Reply:

If you would have the proper mood you won’t do it. See the bhakti practices.

You wrote

So please get over the specifics of the action. Abandon all worldly activities and simple engage in the the Divine service of the Lord by serving His servants. And if the instructions from His servants is to take a role in a play as a sudra, then we should happily do that if we have the proper mood.

Reply:

1. His servants won’t say that if you would have the proper mood.

2. By playing the role of a shudra, you don’t get the proper mood

3. If you would have the proper mood you would never do that, but would follow The Teachings to the mind:

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

O mind manaH indeed kila do not perform na kuru varnashrma dharma dharmam as mentioned niruktam in the revealed scriptures – zruti-gaNa nor activities against dharma na adharmaM rather param perform tanu profuse pracura service paricaryAm for Radha-Krishna rAdhA-kRSNa here iha in Vraja-dhama vraje and certainly nanu always ajasram remember (meditate upon) smara the son of Saci (Sri Caitanya) zacI-sUnuM as the son of the master of Nanda-grAma (Nanda Baba - the father of Krishna) nandIzvara-pati-sutatve and guru guru-varaM as being as most dear preSThatve to the Giver of Liberation (the Lord) mukunda.

[Guest guest]

“The Appearance Day Of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura”

Part of a lecture given at Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002, by

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Over time, the Thakura was transferred to many other provinces. He was sent to Krishnagara, Bihara, and also served in Vrndavana. While in Vrndavana, he went to Radha Kunda and Surya Kunda. At Radha Kunda, he met Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja, who was 144 years old at that time. He was so old that the lids of his eyes would droop over his eyes in heavy folds. In order to see, he would lift the skin from over his eyes, and peering at someone from beneath these folds, he would say, "I am like an old turtle." Despite his apparent aged condition, he could dance with great energy when he sang devotional songs, and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura would associate with him whenever he could.

While Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was at Radha Kunda, the disciples of Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaja complained to him about the instructions they were receiving from their Gurudeva. They told him, "We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila. We have left everything, but our Gurudeva is telling us to grow brinjals (eggplant) and other vegetables and flowers for Thakurji. We did not come here to grow vegetables, flowers and fruits. Sir, should we return to our homes? We don't know what to do."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura told them, "You should try to serve your Gurudeva and follow his orders. You are chanting Hare Krsna, but you are full of anarthas (impurities) and cannot chant suddha-nama (the pure name). You may chant for thousands and thousands of births and not accomplish anything. It is good and proper that you follow your Gurudeva's instructions. You cannot remember the pastimes of Krsna while you are contaminated by these anarthas. If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart. You will soon give up your bhajana to become involved with women and you will return to worldly life. Most Radha Kunda babajis are doing just that, mixing illicitly with widows and having children with them; they are not doing any real bhajana.

"Do not fall down like them. You should follow your Gurudeva's orders; engage your energy in growing fruits and vegetables to offer to Thakurji or to a pure Vaisnava. You should also chant the holy name, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. Real paramarthika (transcendental) impressions and sukrti will come into your heart, and you will be able to truly follow your Guru. Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts. Don't follow the example of the Radha Kunda babajis. They don't know Vaisnava etiquette. They don't even know how to clean themselves after using the latrine. They certainly don't know any krsna-tattva, maya-tattva, or jiva- tattva. Ignorant persons who have left their homes arrive here knowing nothing about siddhanta. These babajis will cheat them, and for only two rupees, give them a false siddha name and a false siddha-deha. They will say, 'Now you are a gopi; your name is Lalita or Visakha.' This is abominable."

In his Jaiva Dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written everything about the authentic process to become a paramahamsa. Jaiva Dharma is the essence of the Vedas, Upanishads, Srimad Bhagavatam, and the writings of Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Raghunatha das Gosvami and our guru-varga. Asta-kaliya-lila is described for those that are advanced, but how does one become qualified to understand it? One must systematically study Jaiva Dharma from beginning to end, starting with the first part where there is a description of the material world, and proceeding through a study of Dasa-mula and all the tattvas.

By following Jaiva Dharma properly, your anarthas will gradually disappear and you will be able to practice bhakti as exemplified by the two disciples, Brajanatha and Vijay Kumara. They practiced first in Navadvipa and then in Puri, and they were completely conversant with all the teachings of the important literatures by our guru-varga, including Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu and Ujjvala-nilamani. They had realized all the stages of prema: vibhava, anubhava, sattvika, vyabhicari, etc. Thus they received real diksa, and they were blessed with a vision of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, dancing with Lord Nityananda and all of their associates.

[anadi]

Originally Posted by SBV Narayana M., Vienna, Austria: September 19, 2002

 

"…While Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura was at Radha Kunda, the disciples of Jagannatha das Babaji Maharaja complained to him about the instructions they were receiving from their Gurudeva. They told him, "We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila. We have left everything, but our Gurudeva is telling us to grow brinjals (eggplant) and other vegetables and flowers for Thakurji. We did not come here to grow vegetables, flowers and fruits. Sir, should we return to our homes? We don't know what to do."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura told them, "You should try to serve your Gurudeva and follow his orders. You are chanting Hare Krsna, but you are full of anarthas (impurities) and cannot chant suddha-nama (the pure name). You may chant for thousands and thousands of births and not accomplish anything. It is good and proper that you follow your Gurudeva's instructions. You cannot remember the pastimes of Krsna while you are contaminated by these anarthas. If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart. … "

 

This quote has been already given.

Here it is the answer:

 

1. This is not an argument, that one should follow varNa-ashram dharma.

The lecture was given because people left/ leave SBV Narayana M for babajis in Radha Kunda.

And as in Iskcon it is preached: “Don’t go to Gaudiya Mat, …“, in the same way in Gaudiya Mat is preached: “Don’t go to babajis, …

2. The qualification to hear about the pastimes of the gopis is

 

- neither to leave one’s home and go to sadhu (We have given up our houses, our children, fathers, mothers, wives, and our positions. We have left everything to do bhajana and to remember asta-kaliya-lila.)

 

- nor to first get rid of anarthas, as Narayana M. would let the audience to believe:

"If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart."

In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly:

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja

will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.”

 

3. SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”But

If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them?

This is not the process recommended by the shastra.

Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get.

According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result.

 

[Guest guest]

Srila Rupa Gosvami saw that Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is grievously weeping and feeling separation for Srimati Radharani, day and night. He therefore gave him his book Sri Lalita-madhava to read. Reading that book, Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami became like a mad person, weeping even more continuously, so much so that the book became wet and began to be ruined. Srila Rupa Gosvami therefore told him, "Give me back the book, because I will have to make corrections;" but Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami replied, "Oh, I will not give it back." Then Rupa Gosvami wrote Dana-keli-kaumudi – for him only – describing how Sri Krsna checked all the gopis at Dan Ghati and how Srimati Radharani and Sri Krsna quarrelled with each other when He demanded toll tax* [see endnote 1]. The gopis asked Krsna questions like, "Did You receive this forest from Your father, or, from where have You gotten it?" An abundance of sweet and loving quarrelling took place there.

yatraiva krsno vrsabhanu-putrya / danam grhitum kalaham vitene

sruteh sprha hyatra mahaty atah sri / govardhano me disatam abhistam

[Demanding a road tax, Krsna quarrelled for several hours at Dan Ghati with the daughter of Vrsabhanu Maharaja. Rasika-bhaktas visiting Govardhana are eager to listen to that sweet prema quarrel. May that Govardhana fulfil my desire that I also can hear that verbal battle. (Sri Govardhanastakam, verse 3)]

"O Giriraja, You have seen how They were quarrelling. When Lord Krsna demanded a toll tax, the gopis told Him, "This is Sri Vrndavanesvari's forest, not Your forefathers'. Srimati Vrnda-devi donated this entire land to Srimati Radhika." Lord Krsna said, “Vrnda is My wife and her property is Mine!” The gopis then called Vrnda-devi and asked her, "Are you married to Krsna?" She replied, "I don't know this black cheater. He thinks that all gopis are His wives."

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written this song, and he is praying therein, "I want to hear this sweet loving quarrel. I want to be in Vrndavana. I pray to the dust of Sri Giriraja Govardhana and beg that he be merciful.

When Srila Rupa Gosvami gave this second book to Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, he read it and began to laugh – sometimes rolling on the ground while laughing. Then, very cleverly, Rupa Gosvami told him, "Please give me back Lalita-madhava for some days; I will make corrections and return it to you."

In this way Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was always absorbed in the transcendental madness of feeling separation and meeting. After some time he wrote Sri Vilapa-kusumanjali, and he began this book by offering pranama to his Guru. Although, Sri Svarupa Damodara is also his Guru, his real Guru, the Guru whom he was actually following in totality, is Sri Rupa Gosvami. In the first verse he offered pranama (obeisances) to his Guru, Sri Rupa Gosvami, in his form as Sri Rupa Manjari. He was joking with her (Sri Rupa Manjari) and telling her, "O, you are very famous all over Vraja as a very chaste lady. But although your husband is not at home, although he has gone to buy a cow and has been out of Vraja for many days, I see that there is a cut on your lips. How did it happen? It seems as though a parrot has come and, thinking your lips to be a bimba fruit, has perhaps bitten them." After this pranama, he wrote the rest of the verses of Sri Vilapa-kusumanjali [a bouquet of flower-like lamentations offered at the lotus feet of Srimati Radhika.] In this book he also offered pranama to his siksa-guru Srila Sanatana Gosvami:

vairagya-yug-bhakti-rasam prayatnair / apayayan mam anabhipsum andham

krpambudhir yah para-duhkha-duhkhi / sanatanam tam prabhum asrayami

[i was unwilling to drink the nectar of bhakti-rasa laced with renunciation, but Srila Sanatana Gosvami, being an ocean of mercy who cannot tolerate the sufferings of others, induced me to drink it. Therefore, I take shelter of Srila Sanatana Gosvami as my siksa-guru. (Sri Vilapa-Kusumanjali, verse 6)]

Continually weeping, he wrote, "I offer pranama to Srila Sanatana Gosvami, who was very kind to me. I never wanted to drink the nectar of Bhagavan Sri Krsna's pastimes; so he gave it to me forcibly, and thus he was so merciful. I never wanted mercy, but he forcibly gave it to me, and therefore I offer my obeisances to him."

tavaivasmi tavaivasmi / na jivami tvaya vina

iti vijnaya devi tvam / naya mama caranantikam

[i am Yours! I am Yours! I cannot live without You! O Devi Radhe, please understand this and bring me to Your lotus feet.]

Later on in Sri Vilapa-kusumanjali Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami prays to his worshipable deity, Srimati Radhika, "O Radhe, I am only yours, I am only yours, I am only yours. If I don’t attain you at once, I will give up my body."

padabjayos tava vina vara-dasyam eva / nanyat kadapi samaye kila devi yace

sakhyaya te mama namo 'stu namo 'stu nityam / dasyaya te mama raso 'stu raso 'stu satyam

[O Goddess! I shall never pray to You for anything but the excellent service of Your lotus feet. I offer my constant obeisances unto the idea of becoming Your friend, but I truly relish the idea of becoming Your maidservant. (Vilap-kusumanjali text 16)]

"O Srimati Radhika I don't want to be a sakhi like Srimati Lalita-devi or Srimati Visakha-devi – of equal rank to You. Only grant me this boon, O Radhike, my Svaminiji! I want to serve You under the guidance of Sri Rupa Manjari, your most obedient and dear maidservant.

sri-rupa-manjari-kararcita-pada-padma- / gosthendra-nandana-bhujarpita-mastakayah

ha modatah kanaka-gauri padaravinda- / samvahanani sanakais tava kim karisye

[O golden complexioned girl, when You are lying with Your head in Sri Krsna's lap and Your feet in the lap of Sri Rupa Manjari, and when Rupa Manjari is massaging Your feet, will she, with the corners of her eyes, give me her maha-prasadam seva of gently massaging Your feet while she is fanning You? (Vilap-kusumanjali, text 72)]

This is rupanuga-dhara, the line of conception of service under the guidance of Sri Rupa Gosvami. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is praying here, "O Rupa Manjari! Only you can save me – by giving me your remnant service." Srimati Radhika was once lying down on Lord Krsna’s lap, and He was caressing Her head and serving Her. Her feet were one the lap of Rupa Manjari, who was very gently massaging them. Rupa Manjari called Rati Manjari (Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami in his perfected spiritual body as Srimati Radhika's maidservant) and said, "Come on, come on! I will give you remnants. You can massage and I will fan." How merciful is Sri Rupa Manjari to have given this remnant.

I am explaining this topic because this is our aim and object, and you can achieve this goal by following Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. If you are not like him, how you can attain this goal?

He has elsewhere written in Sri Vilapa-kusumanjali:

asa-bharair amrta-sindhu-mayaih kathancit / kalo mayati-gamitah kila sampratam hi

tvam cet krpam mayi vidhasyasi naiva kim me / pranair vrajena ca varoru bakarinapi

[For me, the present moment is somehow flooded by a nectar ocean of many hopes. If You do not give Your mercy, then of what use to me are this life, the land of Vraja, and Sri Krsna, the enemy of Baka? (Vilapa-kusumanjali, verse 102)]

"O Srimati Radhika, I have spent so much time only to fulfil this one greed. When will You bestow upon me Your mercy. I have spent years – my whole life – only for this. I only want Your service. If You will not sprinkle Your mercy upon me, then what is the need of my being at Sri Radha-kunda or Sri Govardhana? What is the need of my serving Lord Krsna? I will not even want Him."

ha natha gokula-sudhakara su-prasanna- / vaktraravinda madhura-smita he krpardra

yatra tvaya vihatate pranayaih priyarat / tatraiva mam api naya priya-sevanaya

[O Lord, O nectar moon of Gokula, O Lord whose cheerful face is a lotus flower, O sweetly smiling one, O Lord melting with compassion, so I may serve You both with love, please lead me to the place where Your beloved enjoys confidential pastimes with You." (Vilapa-kusumanjali, text 100)]"O Lord Krsna, I offer this prayer to you. You are serving and sporting with Srimati Radhika. Wherever You are doing so, please take me there at once. If you are both in Dvaraka I will fly there, but if Srimati Radhika is in Vraja and You are in Dvaraka, I won't go there. I will go wherever She is present. Please take me to that place where You are with Her. I know that you cannot give Her up for even a second, because You and She are one."

After some time Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami became aged and disappeared, and at that time Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami became totally maddened in separation and wrote:

sunyayate maha-gostham / girindro 'jagarayate

vyaghra-tundayate kundam / jivatu-rahitasya me

[Now that I no longer have the sustainer of my life, the land of Vraja has become empty and desolate, Govardhana Hill has become like a great python, and Radha Kunda has become like the gaping mouth of a ferocious tiger. [stava-vali vol 4., Sri Prarthanasraya-caturdasaka, text 11)]"Vrndavana, Nandagrama, Varsana and all the holy places of Vraja are now like ghost towns. Now they are like a barren land, a desert; Giriraja Govardhana, where Sri Krsna's pastimes were performed in His kunjas, looks like a python; and this kunda, Radha-Kunda, appears like a tiger ready to swallow me."

At that time Srila Jiva Gosvami and Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami were still present in this world. Srila Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami came to see Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, who gave him all the writings that he had collected from Sri Svarupa Damodara's kadaca (diary), all he had learned from Srila Rupa Gosvami, and also his own writings; and Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami put these in his Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. Sri Caitanya-caritamrta thus contains the essence of all the sweet pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. How can we receive this high object?

Now come down. Come to the process I have previously given you. We must begin our practice of bhakti from the beginning. I have told you about the aim and object of our sadhana-bhajana and life. It is very high, and if you want to achieve it, be like Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami; follow him.

vaco vegam manasah krodha-vegam / jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam

etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah / sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat

[A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world. (Sri Upadesamrta, verse 1)]

[suchandra]

 

1. This is not an argument, that one should follow varNa-ashram dharma.

The lecture was given because people left/ leave SBV Narayana M for babajis in Radha Kunda.

And as in Iskcon it is preached: “Don’t go to Gaudiya Mat, …“, in the same way in Gaudiya Mat is preached: “Don’t go to babajis, …

2. The qualification to hear about the pastimes of the gopis is

 

 

 

Hare Krishna Anadi prabhu, _/\ò_

Well let's face reality, what is fact - we have here presently throughout 20 European countries about 5000 devotees who were forced to leave ISKCON do to like epedemic falling down Vaishnava leaders and started to live on their own without sadhusanga, basically because of people who preached the same what you're saying: temple is pure transcendence - nothing else is required. May be you get your facts straight and admit that what you try to teach didnt work out. Instead we have since 30 years fallen gurus, fallen GBCs, fallen sannyasis, fallen TPs. What more proof do you need? Now they introduced 17 year old TPs, people who clearly will leave after a short period of time. But what is your message? Simply to go on with the same procedure: artificially jump to the tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam and after 3 years again fall back into maya. This is pretty much not Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's in every town and village program. Hope you agree on this.

 

ys _/\ò_

suchandra das

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Ooops! Posted in error...removed.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

That means, if we want to give Krisna the highest pleasure, we should become maid servants of Radha, because Her service, which is the expression of the most exalted divine love, is the highest.

We become maid servants of Radha only by practicing a special type of raganuga sadhana bhakti, namely kamanuga sadhana bhakti, and one must get initiation in this type of sadhana.

The problem is that, if one’s guru never got initiated in this type of sadhana, how can his disciples and the whole line of disciples be initiated in it? He never practiced, and as such he may pretend raganuga sadhana comes automatically, which the traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta doesn’t say.

 

Surely, I am not alone in appreciating the profound irony that, in order to practice spontaneous devotion (raganuga bhakti), one must have a special, formal, non-spontaneous initiation? That's hillarious!!!

 

Anadi Prabhu, can you provide shastric evidence (pardon me if you have already done so and I missed it) that traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta disagrees that Raganuga comes spontaneously after faithfully following vaidhi?

 

 

I never heard of this bhakti Siddhanta, can you please bring evidence for the fact that

1. if guru tells you to practice something else than a limb of sadhana bhakti,

2. than what you practice, and is not a limb of sadhana bhakti,

3. becomes automatically a limb of sadhana bhakti, because he said, you should practice it.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur was the son of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

The Guru *is* the Shastra, Prabhu!! Guru, Sadhu, Shastra (in that order, I would say). Without Guru, we have no entrance into shastra. If Guru tells me something that appears to contradict shastra, I go with Guru.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

"If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart."

In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly:

 

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

 

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja

will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.”

 

3. SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”But

If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them?

This is not the process recommended by the shastra.

Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get.

According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result.

 

Yes, Anadi Prabhu, the verse is very clear. It states that one must hear with *faith*. Do *you* have the requisite faith???? Does everybody who cares to hear have that faith??? And how does one acquire faith? By dutifully following the instructions of Guru, Sadhu, Shastra (in that order in my not-so-humble opinion), we will become purified, and we will get the Grace of Mahaprabhu.

 

I don't know where you get this obsession with reading, Prabhu, but, is reading one of the limbs of devotion? No!!!!

 

Sravanam, Kirtanam, Vishnu-Smaranam...NOWHERE IS READING MENTIONED!!!

 

Sravanam is *hearing*. We hear the scriptures from the mouth, or under the guidance of the pure Sadhu. Reading it alone will lead to all sorts of misunderstandings (as you know from first-hand experience ).

 

There is no requirement for reading. The illiterate street-sweeper that has got the seed of devotion and waters that seed dutifully is far more advanced than the faithless person who can recite Mahabharat from memory.

 

We must read in the scripture (contrary to what our Guru has ordered) about the pastimes of the Gopis? Just how pitifully weak is your faith, Dear Sir (is it as weak as mine?)? Do you think the Lord cannot speak directly to the hearts of his sincere servants? Laughable!!!

 

Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!! Dayal Nitai!!!

 

Please forgive me if I have offended you, but I feel rather charged by your comments.

[anadi]

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 100%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;"> Originally Posted by anadi

1. This is not an argument, that one should follow varNa-ashram dharma.

The lecture was given because people left/ leave SBV Narayana M for babajis in Radha Kunda.

And as in Iskcon it is preached: “Don’t go to Gaudiya Mat, …“, in the same way in Gaudiya Mat is preached: “Don’t go to babajis, …

2. The qualification to hear about the pastimes of the gopis is

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Reply:

Hare Krishna Anadi prabhu, _/\ò_

Well let's face reality, what is fact - we have here presently throughout 20 European countries about 5000 devotees who were forced to leave ISKCON do to like epedemic falling down Vaishnava leaders and started to live on their own without sadhusanga,

Dear sucandra-ji, dandavats

The people left iskcon because they thought they have association with sadhus, but most obviously they didn’t. They were frustrated of putting faith in weak people like themselves, what to say of being sadhus.

One may even be no sadhu, have no realization of his true form, and his relation to the Lord, and make from sannyasi a prosperous profession, contrary of many sannyayi principles of life: building his own temples, where they live like kings, with the danger of getting a queen, if they are not already in their 60-ies, and this was an incentive form many to become “gurus”.

You also wrote:

basically because of people who preached the same what you're saying: temple is pure transcendence - nothing else is required.

Answer

This is a logical mistake.

If one is practicing bhakti outside the temple, it doesn’t mean one should implement varanashram dharma. Varnashrama dharma is not a stimulant for bhakti.

I personally didn’t agree to move in the temple as I was repeatedly invited to do it in the beginning, and forget about the world. Maybe I didn’t have sukriti for it, and I've never preached one should move in the temple.

You also wrote:

May be you get your facts straight and admit that what you try to teach didnt work out.

Answer

Is not me that teaches. It is Mahaprabhu and all the Gaudiya siddhanta:

to do bhakti you don’t need to make stronger your upphadhis – material designations:

nAhaM vipro na ca narapatir nApi vaizyo na zUdro

nAhaM varNI na ca gRhapatir no vanastho yatir vA |

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher

gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH ||

 

I am not a Brahmin, nor am I a Kshatriya;

Not a Vaishya, nor a Shudra am I.

I am neither brahmachari, nor householder, nor retiree,

nor am I a monk who has renounced the world.

 

Instead, I make this claim: I am a servant to the servant

to the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Krishna,

who is the lover of the gopis,

the overflowing ocean of nectar

and the only source of supreme and immortal joy.

[anadi]

 

Dear sucandra-ji, dandavats

you wrote:

Instead we have since 30 years fallen gurus, fallen GBCs, fallen sannyasis, fallen TPs. What more proof do you need?

Answer:

 

One should speak for Himself. If one practices sadhana bhakti , one attains its fruit.

So after 30 years of "service" where is our present sadhana?

 

The are TWO VARIETIES OF PRACTICE

 

The practices are divided into two main categories, which are as follows:

 

(1) Service in the physical body --

In his physical body, the aspirant follows in the footsteps of the great teachers of the past,

engaging in various activities such as associating with saints, chanting the holy names,

hearing discourses about the philosophy and the pastimes of Sri Krishna and His beloved associates,

worshiping the Deity form of the Lord on the altar, and residing in a holy place.

 

(2) Service in the internally conceived body --

In his internally conceived spiritual body, which is suitable for rendering particular services to the Divine Couple,

the aspirant engages in the practice of smarana, rememembrance.

 

This service has two phases, namely static meditation and dynamic meditation. They are understood as follows:

 

(1) Mantramayi-upasana (static meditiation) --

The aspirant meditates on the Divine Couple seated in the midst of yogapitha (seat of union) formed in the shape of an eight-petaled lotus.

The Divine Couple are surrounded by Their confidantes, namely the eight sakhis (girl-friends),

who are located on the inner eight petals of the lotus, and the eight manjaris (maidservants) who are located on the next eight petals of the lotus.

Following his guru who has assumed a form similar to the confidantes of the Divine couple,

the aspirant renders various services to everyone in his own internal guru-given form of a maidservant.

 

(2) Svarasiki-upasana (dynamic meditation) --

The aspirant meditates on the eight-fold daily pastimes of the Divine Couple,

rendering various services which have been assigned to him (her) by the guru,

and which are appropriate for the ongoing pastime.

 

Generally the meditation on the daily pastimes of Radha-Krishna is preceded by a shorter contemplation

on the corresponding daily pastimes of Sri Chaitanya, who is understood to Krishna Himself in the form of His devotee.

 

The practices of the aspirant naturally begin with the services performed with the physical body.

In the course of time, as his understanding and ability of concentration increase,

the internal practices become more and more prominent.

However, the two are never to be separated from each other.

They are to be adopted in a relationship of interdependence, where progress in one nourishes the other.

you also wrote:

 

Simply to go on with the same procedure: artificially jump to the tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam and after 3 years again fall back into maya.

Reply:

 

What about preaching for 30 years

we are not this body and

we should implement varnashrama dharma?

and not dare to read about the Radha-Krisna lila, because guru says is too high, and still singing jaya Radhe jaya Krishna, without understanding what one is trying to glorify.

I don’t think this is very useful for bhakti.

Bhakti is very individual, and bhaktas have different speeds of bhajan.

[brajeshwara das]

Anadi Prabhu: I would never claim to be a servant of the servant but wish to aspire reach that position after many, many lifetimes. My actual position is I am a servant of my senses and my own false ego, and even when I think I'm feeling devotion it is more likely emotion. If you feel you can make the claim of being a devotee then good for you. I don't consider that an easy position to attain.

[anadi]

Quote:

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 139.44%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; width: 100%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="100%"> Originally Posted by anadi

That means, if we want to give Krisna the highest pleasure, we should become maid servants of Radha, because Her service, which is the expression of the most exalted divine love, is the highest.

We become maid servants of Radha only by practicing a special type of raganuga sadhana bhakti, namely kamanuga sadhana bhakti, and one must get initiation in this type of sadhana.

The problem is that, if one’s guru never got initiated in this type of sadhana, how can his disciples and the whole line of disciples be initiated in it? He never practiced, and as such he may pretend raganuga sadhana comes automatically, which the traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta doesn’t say.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

Reply:

 

Surely, I am not alone in appreciating the profound irony that, in order to practice spontaneous devotion (raganuga bhakti), one must have a special, formal, non-spontaneous initiation? That's hillarious!!!

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats.

 

It is a large spread wrong idea that the practice of raganuga bhakti would be spontaneous.

This is due to the fact that when people refer to raganuga bhakti, they forget that this is a type of sadhana, a type of activities that the practitioner must follow in order to attain a certain type of bhava.

When this bhava is attained and one comes on the level of bhava bhakti, one’s bhakti (be it vaidhi or raganuga) starts to be more or less spontaneous, namely one will

<!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->follow spontaneously the rules and regulations of worshiping the Lord according arcana – due to the bhava - love - coming from vaidhi bhakti or accordingly will

<!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->follow spontaneously the way of “worshiping” of the residents of Vraja – due to the bhava – love – coming from raganuga bhakti.

This spontaneity is different as is given by different types of love.

Jiva Gosvami discusses the necessity of receiving of diksa in his Bhakti Sandarbha (Anuccheda 283), having first quoted the aforementioned verse of the Bhagavata:

 

yadyapi zrI-bhAgavata-mate paJcarAtrAdivad arcana-mArgasyAvazyakatvaM nAsti, tad vinApi zaraNApatty-AdInAm ekatareNApi puruSArtha-siddher abhihitatvAt, tathApi zrI-nAradAdi-vartmAnusaradbhiH zrI-bhagavatA saha sambandha-vizeSaM dIkSA-vidhAnena zrI-guru-caraNa-sampAditaM cikIrSadbhiH kRtAyAM dIkSAyAm arcanam avazyaM kriyetaiva |

 

"Although in the opinion of the Bhagavata Purana, the path of arcana, like the Pancaratra and so forth, is not necessary, since, even without that, one can achieve the goal of human life by one of the other methods like surrender (saranapatti) and the rest, still those who are following the path of Narada and others and who desire the particular relationship with the Lord that is effected at the feet of the guru by the rite of diksa necessarily perform arcana when diksa is completed."

 

Jiva then proceeds to quote a verse from the agamas to illustrate the substantial import of receiving diksa:

 

divyaM jJAnaM yato dadyAt kuryAt pApasya saGkSayam |

tasmAd dIkSeti sA proktA dezikais tattva kovidaiH ||

ato guruM praNamyaivaM sarvasvaM vinivedya ca |

gRhNIyAd vaiSNavaM mantraM dIkSA pUrvaM vidhAnataH ||

 

"The teachers who are knowers of the truth say that since it gives (da) divine knowledge and destroys (ksi) sin it is called diksa. Therefore, paying obeisance to the guru and offering him one's all, one should receive a Vaisnava mantra diksa preceded with proper procedures."

Jiva further illuminates the meaning of "divya-jnana", or the divine knowledge which is transmitted in diksa:

 

divyaM jJAnaM hy atra zrImati mantre bhagavat-svarUpa-jJAnaM, tena bhagavatA sambandha-vizeSa-jJAnaM ca |

 

"Divine knowledge means here knowledge of the true nature of the Lord in the mantra and, by that, knowledge of one's own special relationship with Him."

 

Carefully considering the above, we may understand that at the time of diksa, the divine preceptor initiates the disciple into the methods of worshiping that particular form of the Lord for which the disciple has attraction, and the diksa-mantra transmitted by the preceptor contains information which reveals this relationship for which the initiate aspires.

Thus we are bound to note that at the time of diksa, the most essential elements for the growth of the sadhaka are given -- the very elements which will outline the path of his inner evolution from this very moment to the concrete attainment of his cherished specific relationship with the Lord.

 

In this connection one should understand the glory of those unbroken diksa-lineages through which this most essential divine wisdom has been received since the days of Sri Caitanya's dear associates.

[anadi]

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

You aksed me:

Anadi Prabhu, can you provide shastric evidence (pardon me if you have already done so and I missed it) that traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta disagrees that Raganuga comes spontaneously after faithfully following vaidhi?

Here they are some shastric evidence:

 

The practice of devotion is divided into two distinct paths.

 

vaidhI rAgAnugA ceti sA dvidhA sAdhanAbhidhA || (brs 1.2.5)

 

“Practice (sadhana) is of two kinds, namely vaidhi and raganuga.”

 

The word “vaidhi” is derived from the Sanskrit word “vidhi”, referring to the commandments of the scriptures. The word “raganuga” is a compound of two words, namely “raga”, “loving attachment”, and “anuga”, “following in the wake of”. The general characteristics of these two paths are explained as follows:

 

vaidhi-bhaktir bhavet zAstraM bhaktau cet syAt pravartakam |

rAgAnugA syac ced bhaktau lobha eva pravartakaH || (rvc 1.3)

 

“When devotion is caused by scriptural injunctions, it is called vaidhi-bhakti (sadhana), but when its cause is spiritual greed alone, it is called raganuga-bhakti (sadhana).”

 

yatra rAgAnavAptatvAt pravRttir upajAyate |

zAsanenaiva zAstrasya sA vaidhI-bhaktir ucyate || (brs 1.2.6)

 

“That devotion which knows no attachment or greed, but which is prompted by the commandments of the scriptures, is called vaidhi-bhakti (sadhana).”

 

virAjantIm abhivyaktaM vrajavAsi-janAdiSu |

rAgAtmikAm anusRtA yA sA rAgAnugocyate || (brs 1.2.270)

 

“The devotion which is clearly present in the associates of the Lord in Vraja is called devotion filled with loving attachment (ragatmika-bhakti),

and devotion following in the wake of this ragatmika-bhakti is called raganuga-bhakti.”

 

As one desires to approach the Lord, so the Lord will approach the aspirant. (bg 4.11)

 

ye yathā māḿ prapadyante /tāḿs tathaiva bhajāmy aham

mama vartmānuvartante / manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ

 

The way one surrenders unto Me, accordingly I reciprocate. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.

 

Whatever one meditates, remembers at the time of death, that he will attain without fail. (bg 8.6)

 

yaḿ yaḿ vāpi smaran bhāvaḿ / tyajaty ante kalevaram

taḿ tam evaiti kaunteya / sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ

 

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kuntī, that state he will attain without fail.

 

Reflecting on these famous words of the Bhagavad Gita, one can easily understand that varieties of goals are attained in accordance with one's desires. It is not that all paths lead to the same goal.

 

vaidhI-rAgAnugA-mArga-bhedena parikIrtitaH |

dvividhaH khalu bhAvo’tra sAdhanAbhinivezajaH || (brs 1.3.7)

 

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”

[anadi]

<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 126.6%;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr style=""> <td style="border: 1pt solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding: 4.5pt 18pt; background: rgb(224, 224, 224) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; width: 100%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial;" width="100%"> Originally Posted by anadi

"If you try to remember the asta-kaliya-lila before you are purified, the desire for young women and other material things will rise in your heart."

In this connection Srimad Bhagavatam states clearly:

vikrIDitaM vraja-vadhUbhir idaM ca viSNoH |

zraddhAnvito yaH zRNuyAd atha varNayed vA ||

bhaktiM parAM bhagavati parilabhya kAmaM |

hRd-rogam Azv apahinoty acireNa dhIraH || (bhag. 10.33.39)

“One who faithfully hears or describes the loving sports of Sri Krishna and the young maidens of Vraja

will quickly drive away the heart-disease of lust, become sober, and attain the highest bhakti for the Lord.”

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

your reply:

Yes, Anadi Prabhu, the verse is very clear. It states that one must hear with *faith*.

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

1. The verse doesn’t only applies not only for those who hear with faith, but also for those who describe this lilas with faith.

you also commented:

 

Do *you* have the requisite faith???? Does everybody who cares to hear have that faith???

Reply:

 

First faith in what?

I have faith in the message of Mahaprabhu, faith that:

ArAdyo bhagavAn vrajeza-tanayas tad dhAma vRndAvanam

ramya kAcid upAsanA vraja-vadhU-vargeNa ya kalpitA

zrImad bhAgavataM pramANam amalaM premA pumArtho mahAn

ZrI caitanya mahAprabhor matam idaM tatrAdhara naH paraH

 

The worshipable object – aradya (is that) Supreme Lord –bhagavan

born from the body of – tanayas the Lord of Braja – Vraja-ISa(referece to Nanda Maharaja and of course mother Yazoda, whose son is that “naravata lila kRSNa” – Krishna of “human like” pastimes, or madhur Krishna – the sweetest Krishna, not the Mathura-natha Krishna - “Krishna of Majesty and opulence” - who appeared in the mind of Vasudeva and was transferred in the womb of Devaki, but that Krishna that was really born from the body of mother Yazoda) and

His holly abode Vrindavan is in the same way worshipable - tad dhama vrndavanam.

Of any kind – kacit of worship – upasana ,

the most pleasing (for the Lord) – ramya

is the path shown - vargena ya kalpita

by the married women of vraja (the gopis) – vraja vadhu

(who renounced even the religious principles of dharma, just to please <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, a path which is not possible for Sri Laxmi) .

Srimad Bhagavatam is the pure, spotless - amalam evidence - pramanamandpremA – the divine ecstatic love (of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>)

is the highest goal of humankind - pumartho mahan (beyond karma, artha, <st1:place>kama</st1:place> and moksha).

These (concisely) comprise the opinion (the teachings) – matam idam of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and

we don’t have attachment – nah adhara for any other (type of worship oder teaching)- tatra paraha.

Though the direct cause for the awakening of greed is the hearing of narrations about the Vraja-pastimes of Sri Krishna,

one must also give due consideration to the foundational cause of the phenomena.

This direct cause - hearing, I personally experienced through the grace of SBV Narayan, who bestowed some mercy on his disciples by presenting short narrations to stimulate the greed of the audience for attaining such a love as that of the manjaris.

Maybe due to long term association with iskcon people, critics, and initiating many people with no knowledge of bhakti, he did it less and less.

 

kRSNa tad bhakta kAruNya mAtra lobhaika hetukA |

puSTi mArgatayA kaizcid iyaM rAgAnugocyate || (brs 1.2.309)

 

“The only causes of the appearance of sacred greed are the mercy of Sri Krishna or the mercy of His devotee.

Therefore some also call the path of raganuga-bhakti with the name pusti-marga (the path of grace).”

Though the paths of vaidhi and raganuga are two distinct paths, the practice of vaidhi-bhakti can offer indirect support for the awakening of the eligibility for raganuga-bhakti, its various practices being agents which assist in the purification of the heart. In addition to grace, a certain lucidity of awareness is necessary to facilitate the appearance of the aforementioned greed.

 

ajAta-tAdRza-rucinA tu sad-vizeSAdara-mAtrAdRtA rAgAnugApi vaidhI-saMvalitaivAnuSTheyA | tathA loka-saMgrahArthaM pratiSThitena jAta-tAdRza-rucinA ca | atra mizratve ca yathA-yogyaM rAgAnugayaikI kRtyaiva vaidhI kartavyA ||

(Bhakti-sandarbha 312)

“Those in whom such taste (ruci for raga marga) has not awakened, but who have a special interest for it, should engage in a mixture of raganuga and vaidhi.

For the sake of establishing an example for the people of the world, the one in whom such ruci has awakened will do the same.

Therefore, as appropriate, raganuga should be performed together with vaidhi.”

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

 

You aksed me:

 

Anadi Prabhu, can you provide shastric evidence (pardon me if you have already done so and I missed it) that traditional Gaudiya Siddhanta disagrees that Raganuga comes spontaneously after faithfully following vaidhi?

Here they are some shastric evidence:

 

The practice of devotion is divided into two distinct paths.

 

{Quotes ommitted}

 

 

“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other. Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”

 

Thank you, Dear Anadi Prabhu, for providing those illustrative quotes. However, if you re-read my question, it is not answered in any of those quotes. The fact that they are distinct and awaken distinct bhava, is not relevant. That is not under question.

 

I asked for scriptural verification from you that my Gurudev is somehow misleading me when instructing to faithfully follow the path of vidhi marg with the faith that, at a time of the Lord's sweet choosing, feelings of spontaneous devotion will arise in my heart.

 

Your lovely quotes do not in any way contradict Gurudev.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Dear Anadi Prabhu,

 

My last reply was written as you were posting the following, in which, Jiva Goswami certainly *seems* to be encouraging someone (is it me?) to engage in raganuga. Not being familiar with that scripture, I do not know the context--is the author speaking to a specific audience (like a fellow Goswami) or speaking generally? I recently saw mention of a book written by one of the Goswamis specifically for another. Do *I* have entrance into that book on my own?

 

In any case, this perfectly illustrates my need for the guidance and instruction of my Gurudev. He is able to harmonize that which may perplex me.

 

Gauranga!!

 

 

ajAta-tAdRza-rucinA tu sad-vizeSAdara-mAtrAdRtA rAgAnugApi vaidhI-saMvalitaivAnuSTheyA | tathA loka-saMgrahArthaM pratiSThitena jAta-tAdRza-rucinA ca | atra mizratve ca yathA-yogyaM rAgAnugayaikI kRtyaiva vaidhI kartavyA ||

(Bhakti-sandarbha 312)

“Those in whom such taste (ruci for raga marga) has not awakened, but who have a special interest for it, should engage in a mixture of raganuga and vaidhi.

For the sake of establishing an example for the people of the world, the one in whom such ruci has awakened will do the same.

Therefore, as appropriate, raganuga should be performed together with vaidhi.”

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Now, re-reading your quote, Anadi-ji, I am *most* certain that Goswami is *not* talking about me!!

 

He mentions practicing Raganuga-Bhakti as an example to others. If there is one thing of which I'm certain, it's that I am no example for anyone.

 

See, everything harmonized without having to send off a concerned e-mail to Gurudev!

 

 

Dear Anadi Prabhu,

 

My last reply was written as you were posting the following, in which, Jiva Goswami certainly *seems* to be encouraging someone (is it me?) to engage in raganuga. Not being familiar with that scripture, I do not know the context--is the author speaking to a specific audience (like a fellow Goswami) or speaking generally? I recently saw mention of a book written by one of the Goswamis specifically for another. Do *I* have entrance into that book on my own?

 

In any case, this perfectly illustrates my need for the guidance and instruction of my Gurudev. He is able to harmonize that which may perplex me.

 

Gauranga!!

[anadi]

Dear Murali Mohan dasa-ji dandavats,

you wrote:

I don't know where you get this obsession with reading, Prabhu, but, is reading one of the limbs of devotion? No!!!!

Sravanam, Kirtanam, Vishnu-Smaranam...NOWHERE IS READING MENTIONED!!!

answer:

• You should consider that reading is kirtana
  
• Kirtan includes in it sravana (be it through external sound or internal sound on the level of the mind)

you also wrote:

 

There is no requirement for reading.

 

Reply:

1. As much as I remember your guru said the practitioner should read shastra.

2. Is very hard to learn siddhanta and get attached to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> without to read about His glories, all over again, and learn by heart the verses that uphold one from the basic principles of Bhagavad-gita through Bhgavatam and Caitanya Caritamrita/Caitanya Bhagavat up to Vilapa Kusumanjali and Radha Rasa Sudhanidhi

you also wrote:

 

The illiterate street-sweeper that has got the seed of devotion and waters that seed dutifully is far more advanced than the faithless person who can recite Mahabharat from memory.

Answer:

 

Here you make a logical mistake.

The question is not who is more advanced, according attainment or not of shraddha, but if reading shastra is beneficial or not for bhakti.

<st1:city><st1:place>Reading</st1:place></st1:city> is very important.

• Only once hear it won’t do it.
  
• You should consider that reading is kirtana and should (could) be done for the pleasure of one's Deities.
  
• Kirtan includes in it sravana (be it through external sound or internal sound on the level of the mind)
  
  siddhānta baliyā citte nā kara alasa |
  ihā ha-ite kṛṣṇe lāge sudṛḍha mānasa || (c cAdi 2.117)
  
  Do not be lazy nā kara alasa to take into consideration baliyā in your mind / or to have attachment citte for the perfect conclusions (of the shastra) siddhānta.
  By this (attachment) ihā ha-ite the mind mānasa becomes firmly sudṛḍha fixed lāge on Krishna kṛṣṇe.

In your example, reciting Mahabharata from memory is so glorious, that only a very exceptional, and highly qualified personality could do it; One should be careful in naming such a person a faithless.

 

You also wrote:

We must read in the scripture (contrary to what our Guru has ordered) about the pastimes of the Gopis?

Answer:

If your guru ordered you like this, follow your guru.

As regarding myself, as long as guru spoke about the honey, and by that made me somehow greedy to hear more about it, and now he tells me to forget about that because we have to implement varnashram dharma, than I am frustrated.

And I am not the only one…. But still I am very grateful to him, for that he gave me.

you wrote:

 

Just how pitifully weak is your faith, Dear Sir (is it as weak as mine?)? Do you think the Lord cannot speak directly to the hearts of his sincere servants? Laughable!!!

Answer:

This is the level of bhava bhakti. I am on the level of sadhana bhakti.

One might wonder why, if Radharani is really so kind, she kept Baba weeping for 40 years? Could she not appear before him earlier? She could. But could Baba really see Her then? She is not made of flesh and bones, which our eyes can see. She is made of love, She is Love personified. In order to see Her, one must have the eyes of love. Love does not develop in a heart, which is impure. The heart has to be purified by sadhana. The best sadhana is weeping in separation. The tears that flow in remembrance of Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> wash away all sins and offences (aparadhas), and the fire of separation that burns in the heart consumes the wild growth of all sorts of worldly desires. It is then that the ground is prepared for the seed of love to sprout and grow. When the seed grows and blossoms. Radha and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> cannot remain indifferent. They are automatically drawn to it by its fragrance.

You also quote me, without directly commenting it.:

SBV Narayan M said: “Then, as chanting, remembering, and performing kirtana cleanse these anarthas, all the pastimes of Krsna will automatically enter your hearts.”

But If you don’t read about the pastimes of the Lord with the gopis, how can you remember them?

This is not the process recommended by the shastra.

Krishna says cleary that according what you remember, that is what you get.

According that what you worship/ remember /meditate on, you will get the result.

My Answer:

I showed in my previous posts that

1. One cannot remember that what one has no information about it ( one didn't hear or read about it).

2. Raganuga sadhana bhakti by which one practice this remembrance and meditation comes not out of vaidhi bhakti.

3. For the new ones on raga marga, the combination of it with the angas of vaidhi bhakti is a must, for the advanced ones it is not, but

4. by no means by practicing vaidhi bhakti, one will automatically come in raga marga, as Rupa and Jiva Gosvami deliniated in their works.