Varnashram-dharma - further answers

[suchandra]

Dear Anandi, _/\ò_

surely when presenting a personal opinion it should be respected, but when it comes to follow the teachings of the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya-Sampradaya there is no such thing as respecting personal opinions, au contraire, personal opinions are somehow kicked out, or as Prabhupada says: "This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but DVD is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society".

Daivi varnashrama was the order of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and Prabhupada repeats the same. Since you are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada you clearly reject the teachings of your guru.

 

 

[...]Sometimes we are criticized because although I am a sannyāsī, I have taken part in the marriage ceremonies of my disciples. It must be explained, however, that since we have started a Kṛṣṇa conscious society and since a human society must also have ideal marriages, to correctly establish an ideal society we must take part in marrying some of its members, although we have taken to the path of renunciation. This may be astonishing to persons who are not very interested in establishing daiva-varṇāśrama, the transcendental system of four social orders and four spiritual orders. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta SarasvatīṬhākura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varṇāśrama. In daiva-varṇāśrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the determining considerations are guṇa and karma, one's qualities and work. It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.1.24 purport

 

[anadi]

Dear Brajeswara, dandavats

you wrote:

Anadi Prabhu: I would never claim to be a servant of the servant but wish to aspire reach that position after many, many lifetimes.

Reply

 

Yoga means: do it now. One should never think in terms of many lifetimes. Success depends on one’s greed to attain the goal. The stronger the desire, the stronger are the endeavors, and Krishna will reward accordingly.

 

you wrote:

My actual position is I am a servant of my senses and my own false ego, and even when I think I'm feeling devotion it is more likely emotion.

Reply

 

Understanding our position and being humble surely helps in making more progress in sadhana bhakti, and not lying ourselves and others.

you wrote:

If you feel you can make the claim of being a devotee then good for you. I don't consider that an easy position to attain.

Reply

Generally there are three types of devotees as delineated by Rupa Gosvami in the fifth verse of Upadesha-amrita. According his statement (and Mahaprabhu’s as recorded in CC) I hope I could fit in the neophyte category, if you are interested in anadi’s position, but generally one should not discuss persons but the principles exposed by persons, analyzing those exposed principles according shastra and other evidence based on it.

By this one never incurs sin.

[anadi]

 

Dear Anandi, _/\ò_

surely when presenting a personal opinion it should be respected, but when it comes to follow the teachings of the Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya-Sampradaya there is no such thing as respecting personal opinions, au contraire, personal opinions are somehow kicked out, ...

or as Prabhupada says: "This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but DVD is one of the functions of a Krishna conscious society".

 

Dear sucandra-ji dandavats.

 

You also wrote:

 

Daivi varnashrama was the order of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja and Prabhupada repeats the same.

 

Reply:

 

Can you please provide quotes where Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati gave the instruction of implementing daivi varanashrama dharma?

 

You wrote:

 

Since you are a disciple of Srila Prabhupada you clearly reject the teachings of your guru.

 

Reply:

 

I am not a disciple of "Srila Prabhupada".

I don't reject persons, but their opinions, if they go against the teachings of Sri Caitanya and His personally empowered representatives,

... and those who follow in their unbroken chain of disciples.

[suchandra]

"[...]It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society." Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.1.24 purport

 

[anadi]

 

"[...]It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society." Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.1.24 purport

 

Dear sucandra-ji dandavata,

Making such offensive statements, by copying the offensiveness from “Prabupada”, it doesn’t legitimate this dogma introduced by him.

Among his most important “foolish critics”, as “Prabhupada” put it, are

• <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> Himself:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

• Mahaprabhu Himself:

nAhaM vipro na ca narapatir nApi vaizyo na zUdro

nAhaM varNI na ca gRhapatir no vanastho yatir vA |

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher

gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH ||

• Srila Vyasadeva

dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ

vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

• Jiva Gosvami

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

• Rupa Gosvami:

atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

[suchandra]

 

Dear sucandra-ji dandavata,

Making such offensive statements, by copying the offensiveness from “Prabupada”, it doesn’t legitimate this dogma introduced by him.

Among his most important “foolish critics”, as “Prabhupada” put it, are

• <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> Himself:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

• Mahaprabhu Himself:

nAhaM vipro na ca narapatir nApi vaizyo na zUdro

nAhaM varNI na ca gRhapatir no vanastho yatir vA |

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher

gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH ||

• Srila Vyasadeva

dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ

vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

• Jiva Gosvami

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

• Rupa Gosvami:

atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

 

We should somehow humbly try to follow Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's example, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a great scholar. There is no doubt of it. But in spite of His becoming a great scholar, He says, “My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a great fool”.

Even one is very great scholar, he has to abide by the decision of his spiritual master.

 

 

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami: So the Māyāvādī sannyāsīs everywhere, they are very proud of their Sanskrit education. Sometimes people ask our students whether you have learned Sanskrit. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness understanding does not depend on Sanskrit scholarship. That is the teaching of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He said to the Māyāvādī sannyāsī Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that “My Guru Mahārāja studied Me as a great fool.” Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu,

presenting Himself. He was a learned scholar, undoubtedly, very learned scholar. In His youthful age He was known as Nimāi Paṇḍita. This paṇḍita title, especially the brāhmaṇas are given this paṇḍita title. But He was specifically known as Paṇḍita, Nimāi Paṇḍita, very good scholar. And He defeated the Keśava Kashmiri, a great, renowned scholar of Kashmir. The Kashmir country is mentioned in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam also. It is a very old country. And there were many learned scholars. And one scholar came to Navadvīpa to defeat the paṇḍitas, the learned scholars of Navadvīpa, but he was defeated by a young boy, Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Nimāi Paṇḍita was at that time only sixteen years old. But He defeated only in composition, Sanskrit composition. The Sanskrit composition, there is rules and regulations. So you know the story. He pointed out many defects in the verses composed by the Keśava Kashmiri. So he was defeated.

So Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a great scholar. There is no doubt of it. But in spite of His becoming a great scholar, He is presenting Himself as a great fool. He says, “My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a great…” Even one is very great scholar, he has to abide by the decision of his spiritual master. Even one is very great scholar, and if his spiritual master says that “You are a great fool,” he should accept it. This is called full surrender. For example, I’ll give you a practical… My Guru Mahārāja was very great scholar, and his Guru Mahārāja, from literary point of view, he could not even sign his name, Gaura-kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja. And Bhaktivinoda

Ṭhākura asked Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura to accept Gaura-kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja as his, as his spiritual master, that “You go and take your initiation from Gaura-kiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja.”

So he thought that “I am a great scholar, and I am son of a magistrate, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, and great Vaiṣṇava. He’ll be very much pleased to accept me.” Of course, he was very much pleased.

But in the beginning he refused. He refused. Because… Of course, that is only show. He was not proud. Just to teach us. Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī explained that “I was little proud. So I was

thrice refused by Guru Mahārāja,” although he was the only disciple. So the scholarship is not a qualification of becoming devotee. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s teaching. Scholarship may help, but it is not necessary. Real necessary is that one should be humble and meek and follow the instruction of the spiritual master. This is real qualification.

 

tṛṇād api sunīcena

taror api sahiṣṇunā

amāninā mānadena

kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ

[Cc. adi 17.31]

 

Because bhakti does not depend on any material qualification. Bhakti is different subject matter. Aprakṛta. Adhokṣaja. Sa vai pumsām paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [sB 1.2.6]

So that is being taught, that… Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu explained His position to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī that “My Guru Mahārāja, studying My character, he found Me a great fool. Therefore he advised Me to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra.” The idea is that by studying Vedānta-sūtra, by becoming a very great scholar, to achieve transcendental position of devotional service is very, very difficult nowadays. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s gift. But whatever you may be, if you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra offenselessly, then everything is achieved, without any difficulty. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ihā haite sarva-siddhi haibe tomāra. Sarva-siddhi.

Siddhi means perfection. Siddhi means perfection. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu advised… That is His propaganda. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam bhava-māha-dāvāgni-nirvāpaṇam sarvātmanam param

vijāyate śrī-kṛṣṇa-sankīrtanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s… So His Guru Mahārāja advised Him… He presented Himself like that to Prakāśānanda Sarasvatī. Presenting Himself as fool means that the general mass of people, they are not fit for becoming very great Sanskrit scholar or very good philosopher or student of Vedānta philo… That is not possible in this age, in Kali-yuga. Mass of people, they are almost śūdra. Śūdra-sambhava.

 

Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā 7.91-2

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Vṛndāvana, March 13, 1974

 

[anadi]

Dear sucandra-ji dandavata,

You wrote:

It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society." Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.1.24 purport

My reply was:

Making such offensive statements, by copying the offensiveness from “Prabupada”, it doesn’t legitimate this dogma introduced by him.

Among his most important “foolish critics”, as “Prabhupada” put it, are

• <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> Himself:

sarva-dharmān parityajya / mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo / mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ (Bhagavad-gita 18.66)

• Mahaprabhu Himself:

nAhaM vipro na ca narapatir nApi vaizyo na zUdro

nAhaM varNI na ca gRhapatir no vanastho yatir vA |

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramAnanda-pUrNAmRtAbdher

gopI-bhartuH pada-kamalayor dAsa-dAsAnudAsaH ||

• Srila Vyasadeva

dharmah ̣projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsarāṇāḿ satāḿ

vedyaḿ vāstavam atra vastu śivadam ́tāpa-trayon mūlanam

śrīmad-bhāgavate mahā-muni-kṛte kiḿ vā parair īśvaraḥ

sadyo hṛdy avarudhyate 'tra kṛtibhiḥ śuśrūṣubhis tat-kṣaṇāt

• Jiva Gosvami

na dharmaM nAdharmaM zruti-gaNa niruktaM kila kuru

vraje rAdhA-kRSNa pracura-paricaryAm iha tanu

zacI-sUnuM nandIzvara-pati-sutatve guru-varaM

mukunda-preSThatve smara param ajasraM nanu manaH

• Rupa Gosvami:

atyAhAraH prayAsaz ca prajalpo niyamAgrahaH

jana-saGgaz ca laulyamM ca SaDbhir bhaktir vinazyati

Your answer:

We should somehow humbly try to follow Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu's example, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu was a great scholar. There is no doubt of it. But in spite of His becoming a great scholar, He is presenting Himself as a great fool. He says, “My Guru Mahārāja saw Me a great fool”. Even one is very great scholar, he has to abide by the decision of his spiritual master.

My reply:

• Being offensive is not the way of humbleness.
  
• Being offensive and praising humbleness is … hypocrisy.
  
• This example of Sri Caitanya does not really represent your position because:

- even if it is true that this “Prabhupada –idea” is wrong, (even if not as wrong as that of an advaita-vadi – the sannyas guru of Mahaprabhu)

but

- you cannot be compared with Caitanya Mahaprabhu … as being a great scholar, or a humble person, who presents himself as a fool

and

<!--[if !supportLists]-->-<!--[endif]-->Sri Caitanya never abode on the wrong opinions of his sannyasa “guru” and also never identified Himself as being a sannyasi,

<!--[if !supportLists]--><!--[endif]-->- and following His example one should get rid of any upadhis – material social designations, as He openly declared regarding the position of a devot of Radha-Krishna, that He took.

[brajeshwara das]

 

Making such offensive statements, by copying the offensiveness from “Prabupada”, it doesn’t legitimate this dogma introduced by him.

 

It is one thing to disagree and debate, but you just crossed the line. I hope you are happy far from the spiritual world, because that is what that type of attitude will get you. That you don't understand the pure devotee's instructions is understandable, I can't claim I do, but that you, without any shelter of a diksa Guru, will take the position of calling exhalted Vaisnavas 'offensive' is sure to kill whatever you've got growing there.

[gHari]

The aparadha piles deeper and deeper as arrogance finishes consuming the beast. It stepped over the line quite some time ago, but this is just too raw to entertain. Such elephants are to be left to their own madness.