The Rtvik Conception of Guru Parampara

[Bhakta Omer]

 

I find it amazing that devotees have made up there minds on this issue WITHOUT EVEN UNDERSTANDING BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE!! The lack of knowledge on the IRM's position is shocking, yet devotees have made up there minds while they do not even fully understand the Ritvik arguement.

Well, of course I lack the knowledge. That's why I'm asking question Prabhu. Isn't it?

If you claim the sources you've pointed out does show indeed dealt with the arguments shown here, I suppose we should give them a close look. On the other hand: If the pro-ritvik propagators here indeed gave these sources a closer look, and if these sources do have an indisputable answer to some very irrelevant questions, I still don't understand why the best argument I've heard so far is that I should just "accept the ripe mango handed to me" no question ask…

Anyway, from what I read in Prabhupadas books, he indeed talks about a system of guru-parampara, a chain of guru-disciple system beginning in the lord himself. In that chain, Prabhupada is the disciple of his guru, just like to his disciples Prabhupda is the guru. "a disciple of my disciple". This chain, as I understand, goes back to vedic time and THAT is status quo. Unless, of course, there is an instruction where Prabhupada literally states: "The parampara ends with me!". I expect to find such a quote in the sources offered here. Otherwise, this just makes Prabhupadas instructions for him as the one diksa guru an instruction for the time of his physical presence and the ritvik system, introduced by him, as an instruction for the times where his physical condition wouldn't allow him to travel.

BUT! If all is correct, and Prabhupada indeed instructed that the parampara ends with him, we now have to deal with a bigger problem: did Prabhupada diverted from the Gaudia-Vaishnava tradition and from Vedic tradition…

[Guest guest]

Again Prabhuji I humbly ask you to read the official IRM position paper, 'The Final Order' at the IRM website.

 

I could address your questions and doupts here, but as all your questions are covered and answered fully in TFO it seems the best thing for you to study the paper for yourself.

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

Well, of course I lack the knowledge. That's why I'm asking question Prabhu. Isn't it?

If you claim the sources you've pointed out does show indeed dealt with the arguments shown here, I suppose we should give them a close look. On the other hand: If the pro-ritvik propagators here indeed gave these sources a closer look, and if these sources do have an indisputable answer to some very irrelevant questions, I still don't understand why the best argument I've heard so far is that I should just "accept the ripe mango handed to me" no question ask…

Anyway, from what I read in Prabhupadas books, he indeed talks about a system of guru-parampara, a chain of guru-disciple system beginning in the lord himself. In that chain, Prabhupada is the disciple of his guru, just like to his disciples Prabhupda is the guru. "a disciple of my disciple". This chain, as I understand, goes back to vedic time and THAT is status quo. Unless, of course, there is an instruction where Prabhupada literally states: "The parampara ends with me!". I expect to find such a quote in the sources offered here. Otherwise, this just makes Prabhupadas instructions for him as the one diksa guru an instruction for the time of his physical presence and the ritvik system, introduced by him, as an instruction for the times where his physical condition wouldn't allow him to travel.

BUT! If all is correct, and Prabhupada indeed instructed that the parampara ends with him, we now have to deal with a bigger problem: did Prabhupada diverted from the Gaudia-Vaishnava tradition and from Vedic tradition…

[Guest guest]

 

Again Prabhupada being the Sole Diksha Guru of Iskcon is the system which was up and running while Prabhupada was still present, therefore does not need to be proven. Without an order to teminate this system, the status quo remains. To those who say that this system should have been illegally dismantled, LET THEM PRODUCE THE ORDER TO TERMINATE IT. Good luck...the order does not exist.

 

Very poor argument. By the same token, where is Srila Bhaktisidhanta's order to terminate the parampara system? Since he did not give such an order, Srila Prabhupada should never have intitated disciples, according to your logic.

[Guest guest]

That is a great post Bhakta Omer! Seems like you've got a good understanding. Please continue to rea Srila Prabhupada's books and follow our parampara system.

 

Krishnakant is the least qualified to speak about such topics. In fact, the infighting has started within the IRM ranks. They won't last long and the reason is because they depend on some concocted philososphy.

 

 

Well, of course I lack the knowledge. That's why I'm asking question Prabhu. Isn't it?

If you claim the sources you've pointed out does show indeed dealt with the arguments shown here, I suppose we should give them a close look. On the other hand: If the pro-ritvik propagators here indeed gave these sources a closer look, and if these sources do have an indisputable answer to some very irrelevant questions, I still don't understand why the best argument I've heard so far is that I should just "accept the ripe mango handed to me" no question ask…

Anyway, from what I read in Prabhupadas books, he indeed talks about a system of guru-parampara, a chain of guru-disciple system beginning in the lord himself. In that chain, Prabhupada is the disciple of his guru, just like to his disciples Prabhupda is the guru. "a disciple of my disciple". This chain, as I understand, goes back to vedic time and THAT is status quo. Unless, of course, there is an instruction where Prabhupada literally states: "The parampara ends with me!". I expect to find such a quote in the sources offered here. Otherwise, this just makes Prabhupadas instructions for him as the one diksa guru an instruction for the time of his physical presence and the ritvik system, introduced by him, as an instruction for the times where his physical condition wouldn't allow him to travel.

BUT! If all is correct, and Prabhupada indeed instructed that the parampara ends with him, we now have to deal with a bigger problem: did Prabhupada diverted from the Gaudia-Vaishnava tradition and from Vedic tradition…

[suchandra]

 

That is a great post Bhakta Omer! Seems like you've got a good understanding. Please continue to rea Srila Prabhupada's books and follow our parampara system.

 

Krishnakant is the least qualified to speak about such topics. In fact, the infighting has started within the IRM ranks. They won't last long and the reason is because they depend on some concocted philososphy.

 

Bhaktin Deborah, seems strongly you're quite experienced, greatly learned and have a lot of spiritual wisdom to share with others!

Let's say the Tel Aviv University, department of Comparative Study of Religion, invites you to speak about Genuine Guru-tattva of the Gaudiya-Vaishnava Tradition, or in other words, how to examine if a present Hare Krishna guru lives up to what he promises. Let's say you're just about to start, repeating what the GBC chairman Bhakti Vaibhava Swami says, "listen to what you feel within your mind", suddenly the university's classroom door opens and a camera team of a local TV station comes in: "We heard you speak about how to find out a genuine spiritual master within the Vaishnava tradition and considered to tape record it for our weekly esoteric broadcast!"

The students of course did some research work to ask you the right questions and while three tv cameras point at you, you're being asked: "Deborah, a spiritual master in the Vaishnava tradition is considered to be worshipped as good as G_d, his word is as good as G_d's, what to do if out of sudden such a guru quits his job like it happend 35-times within the Hare Krishna movement? How can we know in advance if a Vaishnava diksa-guru is 100% genuine, actually representing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, worth being worshipped by the human society in the whole world?

Is it also required to take up a great risk when surrendering your live, like, you betcha, this person is a 100% pure devotee of the Lord who can lead me to the highest perfection of devotional service? How can we be 100% sure not to get cheated? Or does such a guarantee not exist? Or, lets say such a spiritual master doesnt quit his job, stays in office, but is not advanced enough to lead his followers/disciples up to the level of pure devotional service, they instead remain stuck on the level of karma-misra-bhakti? How to avoid of being educated third-class by such a spiritual master, although he stays in office for the rest of his live?

What will you say, please enlighten us! I'm sure that (read below) Damodar dasa, would ask very similiar questions, although he grew up within ISKCON since the age of 4.

 

HARE KRISHNA NAMHATA PREACHING CENTER

SRI RADHA GOVINDA TEMPLE

Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness

(ISKCON)

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

154/4, 5 Soi Putho Osoth, New Road Opp. K. Building, Suriwongse, Bangkok

Thailand Phone: 02-235-7132-33, Mobile: 06-988-6513

 

 

Attention: All GBC

 

A report about Kavichandra Maharaja by Damodar Dasa, who is preaching in

Bangkok, Thailand

 

Background

I and my entire family are devotees initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and I am

a member in good standing of Iskcon. I entered Mayapura gurukula school in

1972 when I was 4 years old and completed my education in gurukula in

1981-82. I traveled to other countries before I came to Bangkok such as

Africa and America. I have been preaching in Bangkok, Thailand, for a total

of 17 years since December 1989 under the approval of His Holiness

Jayapataka Maharaja. When I first came to Thailand, I had no intention to

stay, as I was just visiting. At that time Lilaraja prabhu from America and

Isvaku prabhu from South America, disciples of His Holiness Jayapataka

Maharja, were the temple presidents. Overall, they were very good devotees,

but they were both desperate to leave this country, and talked to Maharaja

to convince me to stay here to take care of the preaching center. At that

time the two devotees were living in a 2-storey house on Sukhumvit Road Soi

65. His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja used to give them Laxmi when he

traveled to Bangkok, because the situation was very difficult to distribute

books and collect donations among the Thai population. It was nice of

Maharaja to provide support to them; I personally never asked for any

support. One reason His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja favored me was because

I was very hard working, and as I had saved some Laxmi for use in preaching

from when I sold paintings in America.

I saw Thailand as a good place to fulfill the order of my spiritual master,

Srila Prabhupada, to preach. I struggled here for a few years with a lack

of help and little association. I was gradually able to develop a

congregation of members until 2005. I was somehow able to get by, and there

were always devotees passing through Bangkok staying with me.

Since I am an Iskcon devotee, I have always advertised that the temple is a

Hare Krsna namhatta preaching center under His Divine Grace A.C.

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and affiliated with Iskcon. We currently

hold simple morning programs, and noon and evening arati, weekly Sunday

evening programs always attended by a loyal gathering, and special programs

during the year for all the important vaishnava holidays, which are

attended by many. In all, there is a large congregation from the Indian

community numbering almost 500, and there are some Thais, as well.

All At Risk. But all this is at a risk of being destroyed by one person:

Kavichandra Maharaja. He is using one of his followers, an Indian student

here, and others to try to discredit me and to even threaten me. This

person, on the instruction of Kavichandra, is posting negative and

offensive things about me and the preaching mission here on a local Indian

website forum here, thaindian.com, claiming I am not in any way related to

Iskcon.

Kavichandra wrote a letter on official GBC letterhead in January this year

to his follower saying I am not affiliated with Iskcon, and instructed the

follower to spread the letter throughout the Indian community saying that

the Hare Krsna Namhatta Center is not affiliated with Iskcon (see Iskcon

Bangkok Notice). His other followers are also posting negative remarks on

the forum website, creating a negative environment that is threatening my

service here. No sensible sadhu, devotee or sannyasi would make such

comments on a public website.

This follower, on the instruction of Kavichandra, is also suggesting some

threat to me personally, even though he has never met me. On one of this

person's postings to the forum, he wrote: "it is because of the humble and

kind gurus like Jayapataka Swami that he {Damodar} is not yet forced to

leave his body." Action?

I would have thought that the GBC would have taken appropriate action to

deal with Kavichandra in response to the letter written by His Grace Gaura

Mandala Bhumi prabhu in 1998 entitled "I tried to serve you" (please see

attachment 2). But this was apparently not the case. He is still engaging

in actions unbecoming an Iskcon sannyasi and guru as shown by his attempts

to discredit my activities here, and he is possibly continuing to engage in

conduct unbecoming a sannyasi still (please see attachment "Kavichandra

Rectify Yourself").

What happened. I do not mean to bring up old subjects, but it has come time

for me to break my silence and fully explain some references about

Kavichandra that were made in the letter by Gaura Mandala Bhumi. If I

speak now, perhaps finally some action may be taken to deal with this

recidivist. In his letter, Gaura Mandala Bhumi said "there have been a few

rumors of Kavichandra being alone in a room with a mataji in Bangkok in

1995 (not proven)." Please note that the year was actually 1993, in March.

What happened was that in 1993 after the Mayapur festival, Kavichandra came

to Bankgok and stayed in the temple here which I had been managing under

the direction of he and His Holiness Jayapaka Maharaja since 1989. One

morning right after Tulasi arati, Kavichandra called for his female

disciple, Krsna dasi, from Finland, who was traveling with him, to discuss

something, whereupon they both went to the back of the temple. I observed

them both, unnoticed, go into the bathroom. After 20 minutes, Kavichandra

quickly exited the bathroom and ran upstairs to his sannyasi room, and the

female disciple left the bathroom a few seconds after. She saw me standing

nearby watching, and she appeared very distressed that I had seen what had

just occurred.

I do not understand why Gaura Mandala Bhumi said this incident was not

proven, after all, the female disciple telephoned me at the temple in April

1993 after their visit and confessed to me, but she also spoke and

confessed the same to Gaura Mandala Bhumi, who was visiting me at the

Bangkok temple with his wife. The female disciple confessed that she had

been in the bathroom with her guru, Kavichandra, and in his quarters

"serving him, massaging him," etc., because "he was sick." After hearing

this, Gaura Mandala Bhumi chastised her as to how she could do such a

thing. This was not just one incident: Kavichandra came to Bangkok many

times with this female disciple, and I saw her enter his room every night

where she remained until very late, or perhaps the entire night, as I took

rest around 11 p.m. Actually, the female disciple had phoned me many times

after their visit to tell me to keep quiet about what I had seen, because,

in her words, "no one would believe me since Kavichandra was a guru."

I can also confirm what Gaura Mandala Bhumi said in his letter about

Kavichandrda staying in the bathroom for hours, which I saw many times. At

that time, I did not understand, but now I realize that Kavichandra is

mentally and physically a sick man. On another one of his visits to the

temple here, I saw women's bras and underwear in his bag one day. I could

not believe my eyes that he had such undergarments in his bag, so I asked

him to explain. Kavichandra told me the items were for his wife and

daughter, who were staying in Los Angeles at the time. He went to the post

office the same day to mail the items to them.

Strangely, whenever Kavichandra would travel to Bangkok, he would first

stay in a hotel for two or three days before coming to the temple. On one

such trip here, he called me to meet him in an expensive suite at the

Bangkok Airport Hotel to bring him something. I learned from him that he

had already been in Bangkok for three days before he contacted me. What I

saw was something very unusual for a sannyasi: he was alone in the room

with two Thai girls.

On another time, he came into the temple kitchen and began eating out of

the pot used to cook for the deities while complaining, "this is too spicy,

this is not good," but continued eating. In 1996, I was told by the temple

president in the Honolulu, Hawaii, temple when I visited there that

Kavichandra was kicked out of the temple two days before I had arrived

because he was talking all nonsense and manipulating devotees, and

basically engaging in activities that caused a disturbance to others in the

temple. A few days after, Kavichandra telephoned to talk to the temple

president. When he learned that I was there, Kavichandra ranted and raved,

saying many negative things about me. The president told me, however, that

he didn't believe anything Kavichandra said, because he knew his background.

Since the incidents in Bangkok, especially the one in 1993, he has

continuously tried to discredit me. He created such a situation in Mayapur

in 1996 during the festival. Temple management told me that Kavichandra

complained about me and said he felt "uncomfortable" as long as I was

there, and so management asked me to please leave for the time being. I

know the reason that he did not want me to be there was that he was afraid

I might tell someone about his activities in the Bangkok temple that I

witnessed between he and his female disciple. Of course, I complied and

left Mayapur, but after he left, I was welcomed to return.

Apart from these incidents, even though Gaura Mandala Bhumi wrote so many

things in his letter about Kavichandra, why was there no stern action taken

against him. Action needed. Considering that he is in the sannyasi ashram

and considering all the things mentioned in Gaura Mandala Bhumi's letter,

Kavichandra should not be allowed to wear the sannyasi robes, or else have

the rules of Iskcon changed where one can break the regulative principles

but have no action taken if one holds a high position in the society? I

have seen some sannyasis and gurus who have either stepped down or been

forced by the GBC to step down because they had broken the regulative

principles. So why was Kavichandra allowed to maintain his status?

Standing. The question is just where do I stand in all this? I have kept

quiet for all these years about Kavichandra's discretions here in Bangkok.

But I feel I have to speak out now because he is threatening our preaching

mission here as well as my own devotional service. As Gaura Mandala Bhumi

stated, if Kavichandra remains a GBC member and the GBC of Thailand, then

Iskcon stands to suffer losses. He will ruin the reputation of our movement

in Thailand and other regions, for example by his instructing non-devotees

and those outside of Iskcon in Bangkok to post negative, belligerent and

offensive comments about me and my preaching mission to the Indian

community's public forum website that is read by an estimated 1,000 people.

I therefore ask that the GBC take some action against Kavichandra before he

ruins everything here, as he has done in other places in the past.

As far as I understand, I have been under His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja,

who is a faultless sannyasi and guru worthy of all respect and honor. Even

if he does not provide me a letter of recommendation confirming that I am a

member of Iskcon, I will always be indebted to him for everything he has

done in the past for me and my parents. If 3 GBC members, namely, His

Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja, Bhanu Swami, and Bhakti Purusottama Swami,

issue a letter stating that I am not affiliated with Iskcon, then I will

humbly accept. Attached are letters and emails I have sent to His Holiness

Jayapataka Maharaja in seeking his help. I have had no reply as of yet.

I feel heavy hearted in writing this letter, as being of Indian birth and a

devotee trained in Iskcon since 4 years of age, I do not feel good being

critical of another vaishnava, especially a senior devotee, sannyasi, and

guru. I hope that I have not committed any offense, and if I have done so,

I beg forgiveness. However, I feel that the stakes are now so high that

inaction would be the worst for both Kavichandra, Iskcon's preaching

mission in Thailand, and my ability in carrying out the instruction of my

spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada.

Your servant,

Damodar dasa

Bangkok, Thailand

Friday, April 7, 2007

[Guest guest]

LOL Suchandra prabhu. The first part of your post (up until the point where Damodara dasa begins his report) was brilliant and I quite enjoyed reading it.

 

Please accept my humble apologies prabhu, if any of my earlier posts appeared to be stated from a 'high horse'. I certainly did not intend to be arrogant or pose to be a learned person. Indeed, I am just an ignorant fool who has a little taste for Krishna Consciousness. I certainly hope I don't get invited to such universities and asked questions of such high philosophy in front of the camera. I have ways to go before I can begin to understand such topics. However, I am in the association of sincere devotees, therefore there is no question that I will advance, so long as I stay a humble servant of these Vaisnavas.

 

Now as regards Damodara dasa, I feel sorry for him but how do know these incidents he is reporting are true? These days, with devotees accusing other camps like anything, anyone can make up stories. I have personally witnessed several false accusations. Not saying Damodara pr is making it up but how do we know for sure?

 

 

 

Bhaktin Deborah, seems strongly you're quite experienced, greatly learned and have a lot of spiritual wisdom to share with others!

Let's say the /URL], department of Comparative Study of Religion, invites you to speak about Genuine Guru-tattva of the Gaudiya-Vaishnava Tradition, or in other words, how to examine if a present Hare Krishna guru lives up to what he promises. Let's say you're just about to start, repeating what the GBC chairman Bhakti Vaibhava Swami says, "listen to what you feel within your mind", suddenly the university's classroom door opens and a camera team of a local TV station comes in: "We heard you speak about how to find out a genuine spiritual master within the Vaishnava tradition and considered to tape record it for our weekly esoteric broadcast!"

The students of course did some research work to ask you the right questions and while three tv cameras point at you, you're being asked: "Deborah, a spiritual master in the Vaishnava tradition is considered to be worshipped as good as G_d, his word is as good as G_d's, what to do if out of sudden such a guru quits his job like it happend 35-times within the Hare Krishna movement? How can we know in advance if a Vaishnava diksa-guru is 100% genuine, actually representing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, worth being worshipped by the human society in the whole world?

Is it also required to take up a great risk when surrendering your live, like, you betcha, this person is a 100% pure devotee of the Lord who can lead me to the highest perfection of devotional service? How can we be 100% sure not to get cheated? Or does such a guarantee not exist? Or, lets say such a spiritual master doesnt quit his job, stays in office, but is not advanced enough to lead his followers/disciples up to the level of pure devotional service, they instead remain stuck on the level of karma-misra-bhakti? How to avoid of being educated third-class by such a spiritual master, although he stays in office for the rest of his live?

What will you say, please enlighten us! I'm sure that (read below) Damodar dasa, would ask very similiar questions, although he grew up within ISKCON since the age of 4.

 

HARE KRISHNA NAMHATA PREACHING CENTER

SRI RADHA GOVINDA TEMPLE

Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness

(ISKCON)

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

154/4, 5 Soi Putho Osoth, New Road Opp. K. Building, Suriwongse, Bangkok

Thailand Phone: 02-235-7132-33, Mobile: 06-988-6513

 

 

Attention: All GBC

 

A report about Kavichandra Maharaja by Damodar Dasa, who is preaching in

Bangkok, Thailand

 

Background

I and my entire family are devotees initiated by Srila Prabhupada, and I am

a member in good standing of Iskcon. I entered Mayapura gurukula school in

1972 when I was 4 years old and completed my education in gurukula in

1981-82. I traveled to other countries before I came to Bangkok such as

Africa and America. I have been preaching in Bangkok, Thailand, for a total

of 17 years since December 1989 under the approval of His Holiness

Jayapataka Maharaja. When I first came to Thailand, I had no intention to

stay, as I was just visiting. At that time Lilaraja prabhu from America and

Isvaku prabhu from South America, disciples of His Holiness Jayapataka

Maharja, were the temple presidents. Overall, they were very good devotees,

but they were both desperate to leave this country, and talked to Maharaja

to convince me to stay here to take care of the preaching center. At that

time the two devotees were living in a 2-storey house on Sukhumvit Road Soi

65. His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja used to give them Laxmi when he

traveled to Bangkok, because the situation was very difficult to distribute

books and collect donations among the Thai population. It was nice of

Maharaja to provide support to them; I personally never asked for any

support. One reason His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja favored me was because

I was very hard working, and as I had saved some Laxmi for use in preaching

from when I sold paintings in America.

I saw Thailand as a good place to fulfill the order of my spiritual master,

Srila Prabhupada, to preach. I struggled here for a few years with a lack

of help and little association. I was gradually able to develop a

congregation of members until 2005. I was somehow able to get by, and there

were always devotees passing through Bangkok staying with me.

Since I am an Iskcon devotee, I have always advertised that the temple is a

Hare Krsna namhatta preaching center under His Divine Grace A.C.

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and affiliated with Iskcon. We currently

hold simple morning programs, and noon and evening arati, weekly Sunday

evening programs always attended by a loyal gathering, and special programs

during the year for all the important vaishnava holidays, which are

attended by many. In all, there is a large congregation from the Indian

community numbering almost 500, and there are some Thais, as well.

All At Risk. But all this is at a risk of being destroyed by one person:

Kavichandra Maharaja. He is using one of his followers, an Indian student

here, and others to try to discredit me and to even threaten me. This

person, on the instruction of Kavichandra, is posting negative and

offensive things about me and the preaching mission here on a local Indian

website forum here, thaindian.com, claiming I am not in any way related to

Iskcon.

Kavichandra wrote a letter on official GBC letterhead in January this year

to his follower saying I am not affiliated with Iskcon, and instructed the

follower to spread the letter throughout the Indian community saying that

the Hare Krsna Namhatta Center is not affiliated with Iskcon (see Iskcon

Bangkok Notice). His other followers are also posting negative remarks on

the forum website, creating a negative environment that is threatening my

service here. No sensible sadhu, devotee or sannyasi would make such

comments on a public website.

This follower, on the instruction of Kavichandra, is also suggesting some

threat to me personally, even though he has never met me. On one of this

person's postings to the forum, he wrote: "it is because of the humble and

kind gurus like Jayapataka Swami that he {Damodar} is not yet forced to

leave his body." Action?

I would have thought that the GBC would have taken appropriate action to

deal with Kavichandra in response to the letter written by His Grace Gaura

Mandala Bhumi prabhu in 1998 entitled "I tried to serve you" (please see

attachment 2). But this was apparently not the case. He is still engaging

in actions unbecoming an Iskcon sannyasi and guru as shown by his attempts

to discredit my activities here, and he is possibly continuing to engage in

conduct unbecoming a sannyasi still (please see attachment "Kavichandra

Rectify Yourself").

What happened. I do not mean to bring up old subjects, but it has come time

for me to break my silence and fully explain some references about

Kavichandra that were made in the letter by Gaura Mandala Bhumi. If I

speak now, perhaps finally some action may be taken to deal with this

recidivist. In his letter, Gaura Mandala Bhumi said "there have been a few

rumors of Kavichandra being alone in a room with a mataji in Bangkok in

1995 (not proven)." Please note that the year was actually 1993, in March.

What happened was that in 1993 after the Mayapur festival, Kavichandra came

to Bankgok and stayed in the temple here which I had been managing under

the direction of he and His Holiness Jayapaka Maharaja since 1989. One

morning right after Tulasi arati, Kavichandra called for his female

disciple, Krsna dasi, from Finland, who was traveling with him, to discuss

something, whereupon they both went to the back of the temple. I observed

them both, unnoticed, go into the bathroom. After 20 minutes, Kavichandra

quickly exited the bathroom and ran upstairs to his sannyasi room, and the

female disciple left the bathroom a few seconds after. She saw me standing

nearby watching, and she appeared very distressed that I had seen what had

just occurred.

I do not understand why Gaura Mandala Bhumi said this incident was not

proven, after all, the female disciple telephoned me at the temple in April

1993 after their visit and confessed to me, but she also spoke and

confessed the same to Gaura Mandala Bhumi, who was visiting me at the

Bangkok temple with his wife. The female disciple confessed that she had

been in the bathroom with her guru, Kavichandra, and in his quarters

"serving him, massaging him," etc., because "he was sick." After hearing

this, Gaura Mandala Bhumi chastised her as to how she could do such a

thing. This was not just one incident: Kavichandra came to Bangkok many

times with this female disciple, and I saw her enter his room every night

where she remained until very late, or perhaps the entire night, as I took

rest around 11 p.m. Actually, the female disciple had phoned me many times

after their visit to tell me to keep quiet about what I had seen, because,

in her words, "no one would believe me since Kavichandra was a guru."

I can also confirm what Gaura Mandala Bhumi said in his letter about

Kavichandrda staying in the bathroom for hours, which I saw many times. At

that time, I did not understand, but now I realize that Kavichandra is

mentally and physically a sick man. On another one of his visits to the

temple here, I saw women's bras and underwear in his bag one day. I could

not believe my eyes that he had such undergarments in his bag, so I asked

him to explain. Kavichandra told me the items were for his wife and

daughter, who were staying in Los Angeles at the time. He went to the post

office the same day to mail the items to them.

Strangely, whenever Kavichandra would travel to Bangkok, he would first

stay in a hotel for two or three days before coming to the temple. On one

such trip here, he called me to meet him in an expensive suite at the

Bangkok Airport Hotel to bring him something. I learned from him that he

had already been in Bangkok for three days before he contacted me. What I

saw was something very unusual for a sannyasi: he was alone in the room

with two Thai girls.

On another time, he came into the temple kitchen and began eating out of

the pot used to cook for the deities while complaining, "this is too spicy,

this is not good," but continued eating. In 1996, I was told by the temple

president in the Honolulu, Hawaii, temple when I visited there that

Kavichandra was kicked out of the temple two days before I had arrived

because he was talking all nonsense and manipulating devotees, and

basically engaging in activities that caused a disturbance to others in the

temple. A few days after, Kavichandra telephoned to talk to the temple

president. When he learned that I was there, Kavichandra ranted and raved,

saying many negative things about me. The president told me, however, that

he didn't believe anything Kavichandra said, because he knew his background.

Since the incidents in Bangkok, especially the one in 1993, he has

continuously tried to discredit me. He created such a situation in Mayapur

in 1996 during the festival. Temple management told me that Kavichandra

complained about me and said he felt "uncomfortable" as long as I was

there, and so management asked me to please leave for the time being. I

know the reason that he did not want me to be there was that he was afraid

I might tell someone about his activities in the Bangkok temple that I

witnessed between he and his female disciple. Of course, I complied and

left Mayapur, but after he left, I was welcomed to return.

Apart from these incidents, even though Gaura Mandala Bhumi wrote so many

things in his letter about Kavichandra, why was there no stern action taken

against him. Action needed. Considering that he is in the sannyasi ashram

and considering all the things mentioned in Gaura Mandala Bhumi's letter,

Kavichandra should not be allowed to wear the sannyasi robes, or else have

the rules of Iskcon changed where one can break the regulative principles

but have no action taken if one holds a high position in the society? I

have seen some sannyasis and gurus who have either stepped down or been

forced by the GBC to step down because they had broken the regulative

principles. So why was Kavichandra allowed to maintain his status?

Standing. The question is just where do I stand in all this? I have kept

quiet for all these years about Kavichandra's discretions here in Bangkok.

But I feel I have to speak out now because he is threatening our preaching

mission here as well as my own devotional service. As Gaura Mandala Bhumi

stated, if Kavichandra remains a GBC member and the GBC of Thailand, then

Iskcon stands to suffer losses. He will ruin the reputation of our movement

in Thailand and other regions, for example by his instructing non-devotees

and those outside of Iskcon in Bangkok to post negative, belligerent and

offensive comments about me and my preaching mission to the Indian

community's public forum website that is read by an estimated 1,000 people.

I therefore ask that the GBC take some action against Kavichandra before he

ruins everything here, as he has done in other places in the past.

As far as I understand, I have been under His Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja,

who is a faultless sannyasi and guru worthy of all respect and honor. Even

if he does not provide me a letter of recommendation confirming that I am a

member of Iskcon, I will always be indebted to him for everything he has

done in the past for me and my parents. If 3 GBC members, namely, His

Holiness Jayapataka Maharaja, Bhanu Swami, and Bhakti Purusottama Swami,

issue a letter stating that I am not affiliated with Iskcon, then I will

humbly accept. Attached are letters and emails I have sent to His Holiness

Jayapataka Maharaja in seeking his help. I have had no reply as of yet.

I feel heavy hearted in writing this letter, as being of Indian birth and a

devotee trained in Iskcon since 4 years of age, I do not feel good being

critical of another vaishnava, especially a senior devotee, sannyasi, and

guru. I hope that I have not committed any offense, and if I have done so,

I beg forgiveness. However, I feel that the stakes are now so high that

inaction would be the worst for both Kavichandra, Iskcon's preaching

mission in Thailand, and my ability in carrying out the instruction of my

spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada.

Your servant,

Damodar dasa

Bangkok, Thailand

Friday, April 7, 2007

[Guest guest]

 

And another thing that makes it irrelevant is that it still does not answer the question why Prabhupada? Why can't Rupa goswami or Mahaprabhu be my non physically present guru, in case of lack of a present one to be found?

 

Because you must take initiation from the current link:

 

"...in order to receive the real message of Srimad-Bhagavatam one should approach **the current link,** or spiritual master, in the chain of disciplic succession. After being initiated by the proper spiritual master in that chain of succession, one should engage himself in the discharge of tapasya in the execution of devotional service" (S.B. 2.9.7, purport)

 

 

I still am not convinced that the ritvik system was meant by Prabhupada to be used after his disappearance.

 

Satsvarupa: "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, **particularly at that time when you are no longer with us**. We want to know how first and second initiations will be conducted."

 

Srila Prabhupada: "Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up. I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya."

 

Tamala Krsna Maharaja: "Is that called ritvik-acarya?"

 

Srila Prabhupada: " Ritvik. Yes."

[Guest guest]

 

Unless, of course, there is an instruction where Prabhupada literally states: "The parampara ends with me!". I expect to find such a quote in the sources offered here. Otherwise, this just makes Prabhupadas instructions for him as the one diksa guru an instruction for the time of his physical presence and the ritvik system, introduced by him, as an instruction for the times where his physical condition wouldn't allow him to travel.

 

1) ISKCON will be finished within 10,000 years:

 

Allen Ginsberg: "400,000 years. Will people still be chanting Hare Krishna in 400,000..."

 

Prabhupada: "No. Hare Krishna will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Krishna."

(Conversation, May 13th, 1969)

 

2) Srila Prabhupada is the diksa guru of ISKCON:

 

"The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. **I am the initiator guru**, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This is what I want."

(SP Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/1975)

 

"I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they're supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually."

(SP Radio interview, March 12, 1968, San Francisco)

 

3) Therefore, the parampara **continues** with Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru of ISKCON, until ISKCON is finished within 10,000 years.

[Guest guest]

 

1) ISKCON will be finished within 10,000 years:

 

Allen Ginsberg: "400,000 years. Will people still be chanting Hare Krishna in 400,000..."

 

Prabhupada: "No. Hare Krishna will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Krishna."

(Conversation, May 13th, 1969)

 

Where do you see Prabhupada saying that ISKCON will last 10,000 years? He merely says that chanting of Hare Krishna will last 10,000 years.

 

The way things are going, Iskcon may not survive 100 years.

 

You always twist and extrapolate quotes at will.

 

 

 

2) Srila Prabhupada is the diksa guru of ISKCON:

 

"The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. **I am the initiator guru**, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This is what I want."

(SP Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/1975)

 

"I am the Spiritual Master of this institution, and all the members of the Society, they're supposed to be my disciples. They follow the rules and regulations which I ask them to follow, and they are initiated by me spiritually."

(SP Radio interview, March 12, 1968, San Francisco)

 

3) Therefore, the parampara **continues** with Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru of ISKCON, until ISKCON is finished within 10,000 years.

 

Ever heard of speaking in present tense? Prabhupada is speaking about the time he is physically present. Take a look at this quote:

 

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 2 Dec 75)

 

What is so hard to understand for you ritviks?

[Guest guest]

 

Where do you see Prabhupada saying that ISKCON will last 10,000 years? He merely says that chanting of Hare Krishna will last 10,000 years.

 

The way things are going, Iskcon may not survive 100 years.

 

You always twist and extrapolate quotes at will.

 

"Hare Krishna will be finished within ten thousand years. There will be no more Hare Krishna."

(Conversation, May 13th, 1969)

 

"When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared, He ushered in the era for the sankirtana movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue ... the 10,000 years of the sankirtana movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and thus be delivered from the clutches of material existence and return home, back to Godhead."

(S.B. 8.5.23, purport)

 

 

 

Take a look at this quote:

 

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 2 Dec 75)

 

What is so hard to understand for you ritviks?

 

This quote merely states the time period in which a disciple can initiate. Of course, the disciple has to first be *authorised* to initiate by the spiritual master, as SP has stated many times.

 

Secondly, the GBC don't even follow this law - ask Jayadvaita Swami whose disciple initiates in his presence.

 

Thirdly, this letter is not an authorisation to Tusta Krsna anyway, since SP was just trying to curb his guru ambitions, as least while he (SP) was physically present, as is clear from the following letters to Tusta Krsna and others:

 

"I have heard that you are having some difficulties ... Of course, our serving Krishna is voluntary affair, so what can I say? If you think that is the best choice, I must agree, otherwise you might go away altogether."

(SPL Dec 14, 1972)

 

"News has come to me that you want to sell our temple to somebody else which I cannot believe. Even that you have been in charge of the New Zealand center, now you have taken it as your personal property and you have demanded from Madhudvisa Swami the price of the temple. This is all amazing to me. I do not know what is your decision. Tusta Krsna has already left and is in Hawaii with Siddha Svarupananda Maharaja. I never believed that again you would go back to your old habits, giving up the Krsna Consciousness Movement in a whimsical way. Please do not do this mistake ... Now all of a sudden you have changed that program and taken to your original ways? I am so much aggrieved to receive all this news. For Krsna's sake, do not do these things. I request Tusta Krsna to go back to New Zealand and take charge of your duties. Please do not leave Krsna. You will not be happy. That is my request."

 

"I may inform you that I have today sent the following cable to Tusta Krsna Maharaja: "DO NOT SELL NEW ZEALAND TEMPLE TO OTHERS.

IF YOU WANT MONEY I SHALL PAY TO YOU. REST ASSURED - BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI."

 

"I have not heard from Tusta Krsna or Siddha-Svarupa Goswamis nor do I know anything of their plans to return to New Zealand. Try to convince them to return to our Society and work co-operatively. That they have gone away is not good thing and it is a deviation from our line of parampara."

[Guest guest]

 

This quote merely states the time period in which a disciple can initiate.

 

Another example of twisting the truth.

 

Which part of "This is the law of disciplic succession" you do not understand?

 

The quote lists these elements of the law of disciplic succession:

 

1. You must be properly trained to be a guru who accepts disciples

2. As a matter of etiquette a disciple waits for his guru's departure before he starts accepting his own disciples - "in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation"

3. A guru is happy to see his disciples become qualified gurus in time and spread the Krsna consciousness process.

 

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 2 Dec 75)

 

 

Prabhupada did not concoct an apa-sampradaya ritvikvada system. His disciples did. That is how all apa-sampradayas get started.

 

Read again: Prabhupada: "...in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation"

[Guest guest]

 

Another example of twisting the truth.

 

Which part of "This is the law of disciplic succession" you do not understand?

 

The quote lists these elements of the law of disciplic succession:

 

[...]

2. As a matter of etiquette a disciple waits for his guru's departure before he starts accepting his own disciples - "in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation"

 

 

Which is why Jayadvaita Swami has broken this law and has a disciple initiating in his presence.

[Guest guest]

 

Which is why Jayadvaita Swami has broken this law and has a disciple initiating in his presence.

 

That part is merely a matter of etiquete - as in "dont initiate when your guru is still present" but there are exceptions. JS gave permission to his disciple to initiate. It happened before as well. Bhaktisiddhanta got a permission to initiate disciples from his guru even when Gaurakishora was still present. Also, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta authorized some of his sannyasi disciples to accept their own disciples while Bhaktisiddhanta was still present.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 12.6.46

 

te paramparaya praptas

tat-tac-chishyair dhrita-vrataih

catur-yugeshv atha vyasta

dvaparadau maharshibhih

 

SYNONYMS

te -- these Vedas; paramparaya -- by continuous disciplic succession; praptah -- received; tat-tat -- of each succeeding generation; sishyaih -- by the disciples; dhrita-vrataih -- who were firm in their vows; catuh-yugeshu -- throughout the four ages; atha -- then; vyastah -- were divided; dvapara-adau -- at the end of the Dvapara millennium; maha-rishibhih -- by great authorities.

 

TRANSLATION

 

In this way, throughout the cycles of four ages, generation aher generation of disciples -- all firmly fixed in their spiritual vows -- have received these Vedas by disciplic succession. At the end of each Dvapara-yuga the Vedas are edited into separate divisions by eminent sages.

[Guest guest]

"Krsna, He is within our heart. Hrdy antah sthah. Therefore, as soon as we become a little inclined towards Krsna, then from within our heart He gives us favorable instruction so that we can gradually make progress, gradually. Krsna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested, then we have to go to a PHYSICAL spiritual master. That is enjoined in the next verse. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya, upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva- darsinah.(SP Room Conversation, Rome,23 May, 1974)

 

"So we have got this message from Krsna, from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, from the six Gosvamis, later on, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Thakura. And we are trying our bit also to distribute this knowledge. Now, tenth, eleventh, twelfth. My guru-maharaja is tenth from Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I’m eleventh, YOU ARE THE TWELFTH."(Los Angeles lecture, 18 May, 1972.)

[Guest guest]

 

That part is merely a matter of etiquete - as in "dont initiate when your guru is still present" but there are exceptions.

 

You just said: "This is the law of disciplic succession". Now you say it is not actually a law at all! And you accuse ritviks of "extrapolating" and "twisting" words!

[Guest guest]

Lowborn prabhu .... the ritviks have made up their mind. No matter how much you try, they will <B><I>only see & hear what they want to </B></I> . If I were you, I'd just let it go. No point arguing.

 

 

Another example of twisting the truth.

 

Which part of "This is the law of disciplic succession" you do not understand?

 

The quote lists these elements of the law of disciplic succession:

 

1. You must be properly trained to be a guru who accepts disciples

2. As a matter of etiquette a disciple waits for his guru's departure before he starts accepting his own disciples - "in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation"

3. A guru is happy to see his disciples become qualified gurus in time and spread the Krsna consciousness process.

 

'Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.'

(Letter to Tusta Krsna, 2 Dec 75)

 

Prabhupada did not concoct an apa-sampradaya ritvikvada system. His disciples did. That is how all apa-sampradayas get started.

 

Read again: Prabhupada: "...in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation"

[Guest guest]

 

"Krsna, He is within our heart. Hrdy antah sthah. Therefore, as soon as we become a little inclined towards Krsna, then from within our heart He gives us favorable instruction so that we can gradually make progress, gradually. Krsna is the first spiritual master, and when we become more interested, then we have to go to a PHYSICAL spiritual master. That is enjoined in the next verse. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya, upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva- darsinah.(SP Room Conversation, Rome,23 May, 1974)

 

Correct. You have to go to a physical spiritual master, as opposed to Paramatma. Srila Prabhupada is such a physical spiritual master. Thousands of initiated disciples never even met Srila Prabhupada while he was on the planet, yet they still inquired from and surrendered to him. Does such a physical spiritual master need to be physically present? Not according to Srila Prabhupada:

 

"It is sometimes MISUNDERSTOOD that if one has to associate with persons engaged in devotional service, he will not be able to solve the economic problem. To answer this argument, it is described here that one has to associate with liberated persons NOT directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life."

(S.B. 3:31:48)

 

"So we should associate by vibration, and NOT by the physical presence. That is real association."

(SP Lecture, 68/08/18)

 

"Such association with Krsna and the Spiritual Master should be association by vibration not physical presence. That is real association."

(Elevation to Krsna Consciousness, p. 57 )

[Guest guest]

 

You just said: "This is the law of disciplic succession". Now you say it is not actually a law at all! And you accuse ritviks of "extrapolating" and "twisting" words!

 

Tom, read the posted quote for crying out loud...

 

Prabhupada: "But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him"

 

There is the law, and there is the etiquette - Prabhupada says that here himself. All you have to do is READ...

[Guest guest]

 

Lowborn prabhu .... the ritviks have made up their mind. No matter how much you try, they will <B><I>only see & hear what they want to </B></I> . If I were you, I'd just let it go. No point arguing.

 

It is not for them that I write. It is for the new people who happen to read this thread. Ritvik lies and misrepresentations should not go unchallenged. Anybody can make up their own mind when they see both sides of the issue presented.

[Guest guest]

 

It is not for them that I write. It is for the new people who happen to read this thread. Ritvik lies and misrepresentations should not go unchallenged. Anybody can make up their own mind when they see both sides of the issue presented.

 

Ritviks have presented all the documented evidence from Srila Prabhupada for SP's ritvik system, including the July 9th, 1977 directive, Last Will and Testament etc. etc. Signed documents from the Acarya do not lie.

 

The GBC on the other hand privately admitted in 2004 (and leaked to BTP magazine!)that their guru paper "On My Order" was...wait for it...full of "LIES"! That's why they were forced to withdraw this paper in the GBC Resolutions that year.

 

And who exposed this GBC paper, forcing them to withdraw it as it was full of self-admitted "lies"?

 

Why, Krishnakant's "The Final Order" of course, which was a direct response to this GBC paper.

[Guest guest]

 

Correct. You have to go to a physical spiritual master, as opposed to Paramatma. Srila Prabhupada is such a physical spiritual master.

 

It is just your twisted definition of a physical spiritual master. If

Prabhupada is physically available to you, please have him sign a letter confirming your ritvik concoctions. That will convince me and and all others. Remember what SP said about having all such important pronouncements in writing directly from him? Get me one since he is physically accessible to you.

[Guest guest]

 

Ritviks have presented all the documented evidence from Srila Prabhupada for SP's ritvik system...

 

Ritviks manipulate the existing evidence just like the GBC does.

 

I gave you direct quotes and you presented no arguments to counter them.

 

Your ritvik "evidence" cherry picks the quotes you like and does not present quotes that do not fit your theory. As such, it is a deliberate attempt to distort the truth.

[Guest guest]

 

It is just your twisted definition of a physical spiritual master. If

Prabhupada is physically available to you, please have him sign a letter confirming your ritvik concoctions. That will convince me and and all others. Remember what SP said about having all such important pronouncements in writing directly from him? Get me one since he is physically accessible to you.

 

"So although a physical body is NOT present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, THAT IS LIVING."

(SP lecture, 69/01/13)

 

"I shall remain your personal guidance, physically present or NOT physically present, as I am getting guidance from my Guru Maharaja."

(Room Conversation, Vrindavan, 14/7/77)

 

"Krsna and his representative are the same. Similarly, the spiritual master can be present wherever the disciple wants. A spiritual master is the principle, NOT the body. Just like a television can be seen in thousands of place by the principle of relay monitoring.

(SP Letter to Malati, 28/5/68)

[Guest guest]

 

"So although a physical body is NOT present, the vibration should be accepted as the presence of the Spiritual Master, vibration. What we have heard from the Spiritual Master, THAT IS LIVING."

(SP lecture, 69/01/13)

 

These quotes simply prove my point. Nobody denies Srila Prabhupada is still living with us, but he is most certainly NOT PHYSICALLY present with us now. The parampara system refers to a physically present guru as the current link.

[Guest guest]

 

It is just your twisted definition of a physical spiritual master. If

Prabhupada is physically available to you, please have him sign a letter confirming your ritvik concoctions.

 

P.S. Srila Prabhupada already HAS signed a letter authorising ritvik inititations. It's the JULY 9th 1977 LETTER TO ALL GBCs AND TEMPLE PRESIDENTS. Maybe you missed it?