The Rtvik Conception of Guru Parampara

[Mahadyuti]

lol yea right......isnt it convenient to have this wishy washy, 'my position is anything' position.

 

Yea Lowborn doesn't follow GBC, Iskcon Guru's ,he just has his own personal thing going on. Great, just great. Get cornered and then declare, 'well I'm selling my own unique brand doesnt matter if GBC and Iskcon Gurus have a different opinion.'

 

Just brilliant, priceless:burn:

 

 

 

And what on earth is stopping them from figuring out who is a saint and who is a swindler for themselves? That is how it has always been.

 

What? You are going to sort that out for them? Why should they trust you? Iskcon will do that? And that is precisely who? GBC? They were wrong before on that very subject, why trust them now?

 

I give you my position in every post. Debate that if you like.

 

Is Jayapataka Maharaja qualified to accept disciples? Since his disciples obviously think so, why should that bother me? What business do I have placing myself between him and his disciples? If some guy thought you are a qualified guru, that would not bother me one bit either. But if they asked me whether you represent the siddhanta of Saraswata sampradaya I would have to tell them that you do not. That is a pretty simple system, tried and tested over the millenias.

[Guest guest]

 

lol yea right......isnt it convenient to have this wishy washy, 'my position is anything' position.

 

Yea Lowborn doesn't follow GBC, Iskcon Guru's ,he just has his own personal thing going on. Great, just great. Get cornered and then declare, 'well I'm selling my own unique brand doesnt matter if GBC and Iskcon Gurus have a different opinion.'

 

You should study our GV tradition outside Iskcon. It would make you less ignorant and help you understand Srila Prabhupada better.

[Guest guest]

 

Bhatka Tom prabhu,

 

Please accept my apology ... my answer to question 1 above is "I accept that the letter was there but I don't accept that Srila Prabhupada personally signed it".

 

Dear Ms. Pitts mataji

 

Srila Prabhupada's hand-written signature is clearly on the letter, but you are saying that you don't accept SP personally signed it?

[Guest guest]

 

"As Hari is not subject to the criticism of mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subjected."(C.c. Madhya, 10.136, text and purport)

 

Yes, this was a favourite quote of Kirtanananda, Hansadutta and all the other deviant "gurus"...

 

A spiritual master may not be subject to the criticism of mundane rules, but he MUST follow the siddhanta of the disciplic succession he represents. Otherwise he is just another pretender. ALL gurus must be subject to a critical review based on the principle of guru, sadhu, and sastra. And YES, sometimes they do make mistakes. Have you heard of the mistakes of our parama-guru, Lord Brahma? How about the mistakes of Sri Narada, also our parama-guru? The concept that guru cannot make a mistake is completely bogus, invented by the myth-makers of Iskcon.

[suchandra]

 

Yes, this was a favourite quote of Kirtanananda, Hansadutta and all the other deviant "gurus"...

 

A spiritual master may not be subject to the criticism of mundane rules, but he MUST follow the siddhanta of the disciplic succession he represents. Otherwise he is just another pretender. ALL gurus must be subject to a critical review based on the principle of guru, sadhu, and sastra. And YES, sometimes they do make mistakes. Have you heard of the mistakes of our parama-guru, Lord Brahma? How about the mistakes of Sri Narada, also our parama-guru? The concept that guru cannot make a mistake is completely bogus, invented by the myth-makers of Iskcon.

Thanks prabhus for your sincere effort to make us know what are the present different understandings of what is genuine guru-tattva. Just to make a remark to post above by "lowborn" prabhu, what might be identical with all anti-ritvik proponents and the GBC, you surely agree to add to your understanding of what is guru-tattva that new disciples can never be 100% sure if such a saksad dhari guru is actually liberated or might again out of a sudden become overwhelmed by material illusion and quit his "as good as God" status and fall in disgrace. There's according your logic and reason so to speak always some percentage of risk - like when accepting the risk to walk on thin ice, you can never know in advance what will happen - only at the end.

Coming to the responsibilty issue, according "lowborn" the responsibilty always rests upon the disciple - let's consider it prosaic from comparative study of religion's point of view, what is religion: to get from A to B, from material imprisonment to going back home back to Godhead. Are people interested to join a religion with the risk of worshipping a represesentative of the Supreme Lord who has to be worshipped as good as the Lord but at the same time is privileged to leave his job without being called to account and leave behind his followers with spoiled lives, being made into a mockery of public and having lost their material savings as well to chose an alternative path? Or do people search for a save path where you dont have to worry every morning when raising and ask the question if your guru is actually still 100% on board? I'm asking because just received a mail that a female ex-disciple of Srila Krishnaksetra das and an ex-disciple of Harikesa married in a Catholic Church and became Catholics, saying that they dont want to worship someone anymore who can quit his job at any time. Seems like the understanding of responsibilty of people is definetely there but somehow they dont consider to find the required assets who correspond with their understanding of responsibilty within present ISKCON or any other present western GM Vaishnavism. Confusion of worshipping someone whose word is as good as God's or just some slight misunderstanding - any suggestions?

[Guest guest]

 

Confusion of worshipping someone whose word is as good as God's or just some slight misunderstanding - any suggestions?

 

The biggest confusion is thinking that - objectively speaking - anybody's word is as good as God's.

 

The wild extrapolations of some shastric quotes by Iskcon devotees in this area are to be blamed for this confusion. The mythmakers of Iskcon had a vital interest in creating a concept of absolutely authoritarian, good as God guru. Their twisted interpretations closely follow a very famous Gaudiya Vaishnava apasampradaya of Karta-Bhajas. You should study their rise and fall as it mirrors Iskcon. Ritviks peddle the same myth, because it supports their philosophy.

[Guest guest]

The writers here have made a valid point. The rtviks seem to be fully dependent on the teachings of those who they wish to oust with their reform. Without the teachings of Tamal Krsna Goswami (july 9) and elaborations by hamsaduta and others of this ilk, they have nothing to base their religion on.

 

July 9 is ludicrous. This is not a letter dictated by Srila Prabhupada, it doesnt even pretend to be. The author is tamal, the recipient is probably less that 2% (TPs and GBC) of the initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada. The signature is open to scrutiny, as in "where are there other letters written by disciples that have his counter-signature" to emblazon authority.

 

And even if July 9 is valid, where is anything mentioned concerning initiations after he departs? Just the opposite, there is a demand that names be sent to Srila Prabhupada.

 

As far as not accepting anothers guru, why is this a problem? Just because I dont accept, say, Srila Narayana Maharaja, as my guru, it would be greatly damaging to my own spiritual health to go around saying he is NOT GURU. The same goes for my ISKCON peers who have accepted disciples. Just because Sriman Jayadwaita is not accepted by myself as guru does not mean that others do not have him as their true linkage to Srila Prabhupada.

 

The rpoblem with the rtviks is that they are fanatics, meaning if you do not aCCEPT THEM IN WHOLE, they brand you as deviants, enablers, apostates, offenders, etc, the usual tactic of the fanatic (see christian, jew and muslim fanaticism). Enen if you accept their attempts as sincere, this will never be enough unless you fully surrender to their cause, meaning you must pick up their offensive rhetoric and preach to others, not the glories of krsna and the spiritual master, rather, the flaws of every vaisnava teacher presently on the planet .

 

I find very little difference in the rtvik religion and the contrived guruships of the perverts and drug addicts pretending to inherit the vyasasanas from Srila Prabhupada. The July 9 document has created so much disturbance to vaisnavas, I am fully shocked that such a large chunk accept this as shastra. It is the document that made the zonal acaryas abd rtviks alike, and I am a proponant of burning this garbage once and for all. (Watch the rtviks glom on me for calloing J9 "garbage"). Paraphrassed, this document should read: (Changes in caps)

 

Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,

 

Please accept my FEET ON YOUR HEADS. Recently when all of the GBC members were BADGERING His Divine Grace in Vrndavana ABOUT WHO GETS HIS STUFF WHEN HE DIES, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would ACCEPT OUR CONTRIVED LIST OF disciples to act as "ritvik--representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far BEEN given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:

 

A LIST OF ELEVEN THAT NO ONE WOULD EVER ACCEPT AS SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY WITHOUT THIS SHAM OF A PROJECT>

 

In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has BEEN REPLACED BY MY CHOSEN representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation THESE ELEVEN SUCCESSORS. After considering the recommendation, these representatives .........

 

Anyway, Since I do not accept TKG as my guru, I dont accept July 9. I personally owned a rubber stamp of Srila Prabhupadas signature, as did many other devotees of the era. Why? It was cool to own, but thirty years later, I see this as not necessarily a cool thing to own, rather a tool of the traditional "prabhupaDA says" crowd used to control others.

 

Burn it. mahak

[Mahadyuti]

Hare Krishna Mahak,

 

Why is it that instead of discussing the Ritvik issue, you simply engage in ad hominem?

 

Your main problem with Ritviks is that they do not preach.........

 

 

the glories of krsna and the spiritual master, rather, the flaws of every vaisnava teacher presently on the planet .

 

You go on to say......

 

 

I find very little difference in the rtvik religion and the contrived guruships of the perverts and drug addicts pretending to inherit the vyasasanas from Srila Prabhupada.

 

So making it clear that you are againced this practice of criticising Vaisnava's, you go on to criticise those who simple believe in the Ritvik system to be no different from 'perverts and drug addicts'.

 

I suggest you follow your own advice and engage in preaching , "the glories of Krishna and the spiritual master rather then the flaws of every vaisnava teacher on the planet."

 

Secondly to call the July 9th Document 'garbage' and to say it should be burned is shocking and shameful.

 

You doupt the signature (which is speculation) but even admit that it could be genuine. So therefore you call a document garbage and declare it should be burned while admitting that there is a definate chance it was authorised by Prabhupada. That is disgusting.

 

And I would like to make it clear to everyone here that the IRM donnot simply engage in 'critisizing' as in BTP magazine, but simply expose the TRUTH for the welfare of all.

 

This nonsense arguement was used many times againced Prabhupada...that he was to critical, always bashing the athiest scientists, karmi's, mayavadis, bogus guru's, pseudo spiritualists.

 

Foolish people would say, 'why all this criticizing Swamiji, why not just preach about Krsna'.

 

This is all nonsense...Prabhupada criticised all the cheaters to expose them SO WE CAN KNOW WHAT IT THE REAL THING..the IRM simply add one extra category to this list of cheaters........bogus Iskcon Guru's.

 

The cheaters must be exposed so that the innocent will not be cheated, so that they will know the real genuine article.......Srila Prabhupada, the real Guru.

[Guest guest]

 

July 9 is ludicrous. This is not a letter dictated by Srila Prabhupada, it doesnt even pretend to be [...]I personally owned a rubber stamp of Srila Prabhupadas signature, as did many other devotees of the era. Why? It was cool to own, but thirty years later, I see this as not necessarily a cool thing to own, rather a tool of the traditional "prabhupaDA says" crowd used to control others.

Burn it. mahak

 

So are you saying that Srila Prabhupada's signature on the July 9th letter is actually a rubber-stamp that TKG used without SP's knowledge??

 

Why would TKG stamp SP's signature on a letter which appoints him and the other 10 as ritviks, not gurus; states three times that all initiated disciples belong to SP; and does not mention the 11 as acting in any sort of guru capacity whatsoever?

[Mahadyuti]

 

So are you saying that Srila Prabhupada's signature on the July 9th letter is actually a rubber-stamp that TKG used without SP's knowledge??

 

Why would TKG stamp SP's signature on a letter which appoints him and the other 10 as ritviks, not gurus; states three times that all initiated disciples belong to SP; and does not mention the 11 as acting in any sort of guru capacity whatsoever?

 

Very true Tom Prabhu, I have heard this strange idea a few times, mainly from other 'Ritviks'. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

If Tamal could forge Prabhupada's signature, why would he just talk about Ritviks in the letter knowing that he wanted to be Prabhupada's successor?

 

Makes no sense to forge a letter which only authorises you to act as a Ritvik on behalf of Prabhupada, when your plan is to forge a bogus guru authorisation letter.

[suchandra]

 

Very true Tom Prabhu, I have heard this strange idea a few times, mainly from other 'Ritviks'. It makes no sense whatsoever.

 

If Tamal could forge Prabhupada's signature, why would he just talk about Ritviks in the letter knowing that he wanted to be Prabhupada's successor?

 

Makes no sense to forge a letter which only authorises you to act as a Ritvik on behalf of Prabhupada, when your plan is to forge a bogus guru authorisation letter.

When Harikes mobbed me out of ISKCON in 1988, after having served Prabhupada's movement for 17 years, me and none of my godbrothers/sisters who one by one were also mobbed out of ISKCON knew about this letter. So it is clear that the GBC considered this letter as completely useless and kept it hidden. I came to know about the existence of that letter in 1998/99. At that time all of European yatras were already changed into a movement with new statutes and non-initiating Prabhupada disciples all mobbed out.

[Devarsirat]

Suchandra? the good ole german Suchandra? If yes I was in your bhakta program in 1976 in schloss rettershof. You are now a ritvik?

[Devarsirat]

All these sentiments that because a "guru" who could quit his job at any time is no real spiritual, are true, but the resultant so called logic that therefore there is no bonafied guru to be found anywhere, is redundant and totally illogical.

 

Its against the principles of the parampara and also against our teachings because it would mean that the teachings do not work.

 

Following and practicing this philosophy will make a person who does it properly in to a bonafied pure devotee. Anyone who says otherwise isn simply unintelligent.

 

In Srila Rupa Gosvami's Sri Upadesamrta it says

 

 

 

vaco vegam manasah krodha vegam

jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam

etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah

sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat

(verse 1)

 

 

 

["A wise and self-composed person who can subdue the impetus to speak, the agitation of the mind, the onset of anger, the vehemence of the tongue, the urge of the belly and the agitation of the genitals can instruct the entire world. In other words, all persons may become disciples of such a self-controlled person."

 

If Srila Prabhupada did not mean and had other ideas, this why did He write this?

 

Why did He over and over stress "in His books" that one should have the association of advanced sadhus?

 

 

 

Another rediculous idea is that such a person has to come from within Iskcon. Srila Prabhupada has created Iskcon yes that is true, but to say that only from Iskcon can such a person be bonafied is hillarious and may be the conception of a beginner devotee, not advanced devotees, who understand that devotees everywhere belong to the same family.

We are all Iskcon The International Society For Krishna Consciousness, the terms Iskcon or Gaudya Math are just names given, but we are not different from each other. We are all brothers and sisters, not enemies, that should be clear.

How can we ever preach successfully otherwise?

There should be that much understanding that if a pure devotee has been identified somewhere by those who know the symptoms, then there is no harm to go and take instruction by those who are initiated and those who are not, to take initiation.

If someone want to be ritivik initiation let him be, if that is what he wants...

If another want to be initiated by an Iskcon guru okay...

Another go to the Gaudya Math, why not?

Our deep inner sincerity will lead us

 

[Guest guest]

 

All these sentiments that because a "guru" who could quit his job at any time is no real spiritual, are true, but the resultant so called logic that therefore there is no bonafied guru to be found anywhere, is redundant and totally illogical.

 

 

Hare Krishna Prabhu,

 

With all due respect, this is a straw man argument and does not represent our position.

 

Our position is that.....'Srila Prabhupada will be the initiator within ISKCON for as long as the Society is extant.'

 

This is not because he did not create any pure devotees, or that no one was qualified, or because of the complete mess the bogus guru system has created within ISKCON...............it is simply because it was the system that Prabhupada set up....bas.

 

Please read TFO, and at least you will understand our real position, from that point you can by all means make any challenges you wish.

 

Haribol

[Devarsirat]

 

That is the problem with you ritviks - you pick selected words and statements even from what Srila Prabhupada has said, and reject all other evidence, just to maintain your ritvik theory. Then you twist the quotes you use in a way the author never intended, as evident from your "Back to Prabhupada" articles. Compared to that magazine, National Enquirer with their stories about aliens is a gold standard of responsible journalism. It is a travesty to put Srila Prabhupada's name on such a magazine.

 

<!-- / message -->

 

I found this also, sometimes words are picked out as proof of something or to discredit and the rest of the scentence is left out, the reader reads what they want him to read. The whole scentence then tells a different story.

 

The whole idea, that it is okay to lie and discredit and spread false propaganda about anything that does not agree with ones own ideas, even if its true, just to further ones own agenda tastes bad and is unattractive.

[Devarsirat]

 

Hare Krishna Prabhu,

 

With all due respect, this is a straw man argument and does not represent our position.

 

Our position is that.....'Srila Prabhupada will be the initiator within ISKCON for as long as the Society is extant.'

 

This is not because he did not create any pure devotees, or that no one was qualified, or because of the complete mess the bogus guru system has created within ISKCON...............it is simply because it was the system that Prabhupada set up....bas.

 

Please read TFO, and at least you will understand our real position, from that point you can by all means make any challenges you wish.

 

Haribol

 

Okay if this is not your position, you are then from a different ritivik group, but i have read this somewhere. Anyway, when I read your

so called truths about Srila Narayana Maharaja in the mag "back to Prabhupada" then I know that you are offending

and do not accept any other pure devotee then Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thats fine with me, but to begin and offend is uncalled for. Srila Prabhupada said "I can criticise my godbrothers, you cant"

 

So there oh you strickt followers of Srila Prabhupada, why do you do this kind of thing? You are not following Srila Prabhupada, you can critice your own godbrothers, but this is where it should stop.

 

Be a ritvik, thats fine with me, what do I know? like you I just have my own opinions based on the way I perceive the truth and it does not include reading tfo again, which did not convince me in the slightest, sorry.

 

I rather base my understanding on what sastra says and it is true to say that such an importand subject like the future of Iskcon and

 

first and second initiations and who will be the initiating guru of Iskcon for the next 10000 years.....would have been discussed by Srila Prabhupada extensively in His books for everyone to understand.......

 

Such a mojor change to the system of the parampara would have become sastra and Srila Prabhupadas books are sastra

it would be a major change to sastra and everything we have read in Srila Prabhupada about the ancient system of disciplic succession would have been influence by that major change, but it is not mentioned.

 

Srila Prabhupada therefore has not changed anything He wrote in His will

" The system is okay as it is , there is no need for any change"

 

but the Iskcon gurus changed it by not completing their spiritual training and the ritvik devotees are changing the system of the parampara by proposing something that is not found in SPB

 

Not one page in His books deals with changing the system into ritvik

and that is where the whole ritvik idea falls apart for me.

 

Everyone would have been clear about these things long time in advance, it is completely true to say that Srila Prabhupada would

not have left this major change out of His divine books and just thought about this in the last moment, it is just to important.

[Guest guest]

Devarsirat Prabhu,

 

Please show where the IRM have lied and spread false propaganda.

 

Why do you make such outlandish claims without a shred of evidence to back this up?

 

To say we have 'lied and spread false propaganda' is itself a lie and false propaganda spread by yourself.

 

Why do you think it is OK for YOU to spread lies and false propaganda about the IRM and.......'discredit and spread false propaganda about anything that does not agree with ones own ideas'???

 

The IRM have never lied about anything, spread any false propaganda, presented half truths etc and the onus of proof is on those who make such accusations to prove them.

 

In the final order we present ALL the evidence on the matter, even evidence used by the GBC as proof of thier own position. We simply refute it and give reasons why, we never pick out anything.

 

The GBC however have banned TFO and never present the stacks of evidence which contradicts thier own position. In fact if you look at such evidence you will be banned from the temple and ostrocised from the community.

 

 

 

 

I found this also, sometimes words are picked out as proof of something or to discredit and the rest of the scentence is left out, the reader reads what they want him to read. The whole scentence then tells a different story.

 

The whole idea, that it is okay to lie and discredit and spread false propaganda about anything that does not agree with ones own ideas, even if its true, just to further ones own agenda tastes bad and is unattractive.

[Guest guest]

This is the kind of dishonesty that hasn't endeared the ritviks to the Vaisnava community.

 

I know quite a few people who were ritviks and the temple management knew about it. They were allowed to come and serve and it was only when they started to distribute BTP and engage in such activities that they were thrown out of the temple (and rightly so). Please don't go around saying "you will be banned from the temple and ostrocised from the community". You will but only if you disrupt.

 

 

Devarsirat Prabhu,

 

Please show where the IRM have lied and spread false propaganda.

 

Why do you make such outlandish claims without a shred of evidence to back this up?

 

To say we have 'lied and spread false propaganda' is itself a lie and false propaganda spread by yourself.

 

Why do you think it is OK for YOU to spread lies and false propaganda about the IRM and.......'discredit and spread false propaganda about anything that does not agree with ones own ideas'???

 

The IRM have never lied about anything, spread any false propaganda, presented half truths etc and the onus of proof is on those who make such accusations to prove them.

 

In the final order we present ALL the evidence on the matter, even evidence used by the GBC as proof of thier own position. We simply refute it and give reasons why, we never pick out anything.

 

The GBC however have banned TFO and never present the stacks of evidence which contradicts thier own position. In fact if you look at such evidence you will be banned from the temple and ostrocised from the community.

[Guest guest]

Couldn't agree more Mahak prabhu.

 

The method of the ritviks is distasteful, to say the least. Going around to festivals and provoking devotees and getting their reaction on the camera. They then post these videos on youtube. Such cheap tactics and they wonder why they aren't respected.

 

These ritviks are so thoroughly brainwashed that they're more interested in offending and overthrowing other devotees than make progress in Bhakti. A misguided bunch.

 

 

The writers here have made a valid point. The rtviks seem to be fully dependent on the teachings of those who they wish to oust with their reform. Without the teachings of Tamal Krsna Goswami (july 9) and elaborations by hamsaduta and others of this ilk, they have nothing to base their religion on.

 

July 9 is ludicrous. This is not a letter dictated by Srila Prabhupada, it doesnt even pretend to be. The author is tamal, the recipient is probably less that 2% (TPs and GBC) of the initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada. The signature is open to scrutiny, as in "where are there other letters written by disciples that have his counter-signature" to emblazon authority.

 

And even if July 9 is valid, where is anything mentioned concerning initiations after he departs? Just the opposite, there is a demand that names be sent to Srila Prabhupada.

 

As far as not accepting anothers guru, why is this a problem? Just because I dont accept, say, Srila Narayana Maharaja, as my guru, it would be greatly damaging to my own spiritual health to go around saying he is NOT GURU. The same goes for my ISKCON peers who have accepted disciples. Just because Sriman Jayadwaita is not accepted by myself as guru does not mean that others do not have him as their true linkage to Srila Prabhupada.

 

The rpoblem with the rtviks is that they are fanatics, meaning if you do not aCCEPT THEM IN WHOLE, they brand you as deviants, enablers, apostates, offenders, etc, the usual tactic of the fanatic (see christian, jew and muslim fanaticism). Enen if you accept their attempts as sincere, this will never be enough unless you fully surrender to their cause, meaning you must pick up their offensive rhetoric and preach to others, not the glories of krsna and the spiritual master, rather, the flaws of every vaisnava teacher presently on the planet .

 

I find very little difference in the rtvik religion and the contrived guruships of the perverts and drug addicts pretending to inherit the vyasasanas from Srila Prabhupada. The July 9 document has created so much disturbance to vaisnavas, I am fully shocked that such a large chunk accept this as shastra. It is the document that made the zonal acaryas abd rtviks alike, and I am a proponant of burning this garbage once and for all. (Watch the rtviks glom on me for calloing J9 "garbage"). Paraphrassed, this document should read: (Changes in caps)

 

Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,

 

Please accept my FEET ON YOUR HEADS. Recently when all of the GBC members were BADGERING His Divine Grace in Vrndavana ABOUT WHO GETS HIS STUFF WHEN HE DIES, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would ACCEPT OUR CONTRIVED LIST OF disciples to act as "ritvik--representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation. His Divine Grace has so far BEEN given a list of eleven disciples who will act in that capacity:

 

A LIST OF ELEVEN THAT NO ONE WOULD EVER ACCEPT AS SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY WITHOUT THIS SHAM OF A PROJECT>

 

In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has BEEN REPLACED BY MY CHOSEN representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation THESE ELEVEN SUCCESSORS. After considering the recommendation, these representatives .........

 

Anyway, Since I do not accept TKG as my guru, I dont accept July 9. I personally owned a rubber stamp of Srila Prabhupadas signature, as did many other devotees of the era. Why? It was cool to own, but thirty years later, I see this as not necessarily a cool thing to own, rather a tool of the traditional "prabhupaDA says" crowd used to control others.

 

Burn it. mahak

[Guest guest]

 

Please don't go around saying "you will be banned from the temple and ostrocised from the community". You will but only if you disrupt.

 

That is simply not true. I personally know that a friend of mine was asked to leave a major Iskcon Temple with his wife and children simply for 'being a Ritvik', no BTP distribution or anything.

 

What you are speaking is untrue and has no bearing reality, plain and simple.

[Mahadyuti]

 

Couldn't agree more Mahak prabhu.

 

The method of the ritviks is distasteful, to say the least. Going around to festivals and provoking devotees and getting their reaction on the camera. They then post these videos on youtube. Such cheap tactics and they wonder why they aren't respected.

 

These ritviks are so thoroughly brainwashed that they're more interested in offending and overthrowing other devotees than make progress in Bhakti. A misguided bunch.

 

Yes we are 'distasteful', 'brainwashed', 'interested in offending' and 'misguided'.

 

All character assassination and personal attacks. This is a sign that you have no arguement and are defeated.

[Mahadyuti]

 

Couldn't agree more Mahak prabhu.

 

The method of the ritviks is distasteful, to say the least. Going around to festivals and provoking devotees and getting their reaction on the camera. They then post these videos on youtube. Such cheap tactics and they wonder why they aren't respected.

 

These ritviks are so thoroughly brainwashed that they're more interested in offending and overthrowing other devotees than make progress in Bhakti. A misguided bunch.

 

Just see that madness. This guest does not mention the fact that IRM devotees where verbally and physically abused by a so called Guru for simply distributing BTP magazine along with a crazed violent 'devotee' who proceeded to steal magazines and tear them apart.

 

This crazed, dysfunctional, brainwashed cultish behaviour is totally acceptable to our guest friend, but accuses IRM for distaseful behaviour for simply distributing a magazine with a different point of view.

 

Therefore he is saying that;

 

1. Its ok to beat and abuse someone for distributing literature that you dont agree with.

 

2. Its the fault of those who distribute a magazine with an opossing point of view when they are beaten and abused.

 

This is the logic of a madman. According to this crazy logic, if a sankirtana devotee was assulted on the street it would be the fault of the sankirtana devotee for going to a place where materialist congregates and it would be his fault for going there and causing a disturbance.

 

Absolute lunacy.

[suchandra]

 

Couldn't agree more Mahak prabhu.

 

The method of the ritviks is distasteful, to say the least. Going around to festivals and provoking devotees and getting their reaction on the camera. They then post these videos on youtube. Such cheap tactics and they wonder why they aren't respected.

 

These ritviks are so thoroughly brainwashed that they're more interested in offending and overthrowing other devotees than make progress in Bhakti. A misguided bunch.

Looks like many Vaishnavas feel sure that the present decline of global Vaishnavism cant be considered as something less important. On the other hand Prabhupada says:

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Lecture 1.5.8-9

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

New Vrindaban, May 24, 1969

690524SB.NV

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t........><!-- D(["mb","\u003cWBR\>/690524SB.NV.htm?i\u003d1969\u003c/font\>\u003c/a\> \u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>\u003cspan style\u003d\"font-weight:bold\"\>...And the whole world is problem for ordinary persons, but to us it is \u003cbr\>not problem. Because we see everything Kṛṣṇa's. If there is problem, \n\u003cbr\>it is Kṛṣṇa's problem. Why my problem? Kṛṣṇa can know how to \u003cbr\>solve problem. So we have no problem practically. Kṛṣṇa's problem. \u003cbr\>Kṛṣṇa will see to it.\u003c/span\> \u003c/td\>\u003c/tr\>\u003c/tbody\>\u003c/table\>\u003cspan\>\n\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>\u003cfont size\u003d\"2\"\>In sum, all Prabhupadanugas should be warned to preach against present ISKCON leadership, your live is in danger of being destroyed by unseen secret services. Even Krishna warned the demigods in the 8th Canto of SB to make a truce with the deviants: \n\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>TRANSLATION \u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>O demigods, fulfilling one's own interests is so important that one may even have to make a truce with one's enemies. For the sake of one's self-interest, one has to act according to the logic of the snake and the mouse. \n\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>PURPORT \u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>A snake and a mouse were once caught in a basket. Now, since the mouse is food for the snake, this was a good opportunity for the snake. However, since both of them were caught in the basket, even if the snake ate the mouse, the snake would not be able to get out. Therefore, the snake thought it wise to make a truce with the mouse and ask the mouse to make a hole in the basket so that both of them could get out. The snake's intention was that after the mouse made the hole, the snake would eat the mouse and escape from the basket through the hole. This is called the logic of the snake and the mouse. \n\u003cbr\>Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.6.20\u003c/font\>\u003c/span\>\u003cspan\>\u003cbr\>\u003c/span\>\u003c/div\>\n",0] ); //-->.........><wbr>/690524SB.NV.htm?i=1969

 

...And the whole world is problem for ordinary persons, but to us it is

not problem. Because we see everything Kṛṣṇa's. If there is problem,

it is Kṛṣṇa's problem. Why my problem? Kṛṣṇa can know how to

solve problem. So we have no problem practically. Kṛṣṇa's problem.

Kṛṣṇa will see to it.

 

 

 

 

What are we Going to Do About It?

BY: RAVI DASA

 

May 11, VRINDAVAN, INDIA (SUN) — A response to Mahavidya Prabhu.

 

Thank you for your

thoughtful response

. I heard the natural compassion of a devotee in your statements.

 

In the original article there was no mention of “Do we wish to destroy everyone who makes a mistake, get rid of them, eradicate or obliterate them?” A coup does not require that anyone is destroyed or eradicated. The GBC have become an elitist oligarchy. They have overstepped their “management authority” position and have deviated from the Srila Prabhupada's advice on how to run and manage the society. This is clearly shown by the lack of senior devotees still willing to work with ISKCON, and how many of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are still actively serving in ISKCON (does anyone have an accurate number?)

 

A few of the symptoms of this present malaise are, the decrease in book sales around the world, reduced Harinam chanting parties and the lack of developed “simple living, high thinking” communities. In the thirty years since Srila Prabhupada entered Samadhi, we have seen a string of disasters, abuse cover-ups, falldowns, murder and mayhem. I am amazed that the devotees still feel that the GBC have any mandate or competency to manage. These devotees only have the authority we are willing to give them. Isn’t it about time that someone said “the emperor has no clothes?”

 

The last thing we want is another version of the GBC who don’t listen, are isolated from the devotees, who are addicted to position and power. They abuse their position and devotees through fear of aparadha, faultfinding and criticism. They tenuously hang on to their position through a tissue of interpretation, using Srila Prabhupada's DOM to justify their position and conveniently ignoring His request that they be an elected body.

 

We are not playing “king of the hill”, where we substitute one bad management for another. Has it come to the stage where there has been such poor leadership for so long we have forgotten that leaders can be kind, compassionate and honest? The coup I am suggesting is simply to topple the existing oligarchy, establish an accountable elected management structure and regain the mercy of the spiritual master by following His instructions.

 

I am not suggesting that the talented individual devotees who make up the GBC have to be taken away and shot. In fact the opposite is true. If there was less “management” and more leadership then a lot of the anger that the devotees feel in regard to the issues that arise in many of the letters and articles I read would evaporate. We are tinkering at the edges of the issue. Whining and complaining about “them” is not going to get us anywhere. Isn’t it about time that we addressed the core problem?

 

The devotees want to serve, but they want to feel confident that they are being cared for and not exploited. It is axiomatic and must be transparently clear that the mission we are on is that which Srila Prabhupada has given to us. You cannot legislate and implement humility, it is a natural quality of a sincere devotee. Similarly how can we make laws that dictate that the guru has to understand that all his disciples are there by the mercy of his spiritual master to assist him in carrying out his spiritual master's mission? He is guru because he is submissive to the order of his guru, he is a leader because he is a follower. All these wonderful qualities must be observed in a qualified leader. Real leaders will inspire the devotees through their personal example. They don’t have to resort to new age management strategies.

 

It is doubtful that the current GBC will ever agree to elections. If they did, how many of them do you think would be elected? We should be demanding elections, and until they are implemented why should we pay the current crop of failures to make any of their empty pontifications and useless management strategies? They are fake, phony and without value. It is about time we all accepted some culpability. We followed like sheep, disempowered and feeling helpless, now we are making a lot of noise but very little action to actually do anything about it. There are nice devotees, dedicated to Srila Prabhupada, honest and sincere, they should come forward and step up to the plate. They may make mistakes, we all do. But if they could inspire the devotees, then the mistakes would be like spots on the moon. Mahavidya prabhu hit the nail on the head when he outlined the qualities that leaders need to posses, he said:

 

• one who is open to feedback........
  
  
  one who is open to constructive criticism....
  
  
  one who is willing to have a forum for dialogue.
  
  
  What makes a good Iskcon manager?
  
  
  First and foremost,
  
  
  a dedication to carrying out Srila Prabhupada's wishes...
  
  
  not mine, not yours,
  
  
  But His
  
  
  even imperfectly.

They say that you get the leaders you deserve; well I for one don’t think the movement deserves the “leaders” it has at the moment. But as always, the $64,000 dollar question is not “do we all agree”, but “what are we going to do about it?”

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

I found this also, sometimes words are picked out as proof of something or to discredit and the rest of the scentence is left out, the reader reads what they want him to read. The whole scentence then tells a different story.

 

The whole idea, that it is okay to lie and discredit and spread false propaganda about anything that does not agree with ones own ideas, even if its true, just to further ones own agenda tastes bad and is unattractive.

 

WHICH words/sentences are "picked out"? Please STATE them so we can see what you are talking about.

 

Similarly, what "lies" and "false propaganda" is being spread in BTP? All the information in BTP is either direct quotes from Srila Prabhupada's books or the GBC or the gurus.

 

Let's have the EVIDENCE please instead of mindless attacks. Surely you can quote some examples. Otherwise your statements mean nothing, just alot of hot air.

[mahak]

Haribol. Are we discussing here? If so, please accept these comments as furthering this discussion.

 

Haribol. Vani means teachings. We associate with the One empowered to sit on the Vyasasana, meaning he is the personification of the literary incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Srila Prabhupada presents Lord Vasadeva

as He is. His books are making the Vani of Lord Vyasadeva available to all people. These Books that he requires to be read and understood to the highest level possible by His disciples are not just translation of ord Vyasadeva's words. These are fully given, in the script, the arabic, transliteration and translation, but the meaning is the masterpiece of Srila Prabhupada. A sentence from any one of these books has all the meaning one needs to fully go back home, yet he leaves volumes.

Srila Prabhupada is fully present in his vani, and his vani is the great gift to mankind, Srila Vyasadevas Bhagavatam and Gita, and the teachings of the goswamis and their loving servant Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraj. To avoid his books, to change the books, to favor other writings more than His books, this means that we have left his room. The greatest concern of a discerning disciple is revisionism, questioning any departure from

truth for convenience sake. In the case of hearing a contrived

philosophy of "initiation systems", questions MUST be asked in that such departure has no reference available in his books.

A bully tactic of all revisionists is to ignore controversial, yet honest, dialog. Preferring to disregard indisputable fact while striving to discredit by character assassination (deserved or otherwise), they actually have nothing to offer. While promising to be open to dialog, the revisionist invites debate, but can never give in regard to respect of other ideas, the phenomenon called diversity. Ive been in debates, and the end is just like the idiotic comment about the late Tusta Krsna das being ambitious to be guru. IRM is PADA light, and no, I wont vote for Hillary to replace the fascists, because they all

agree. Those who actually had the fortune of meeting this person knows his humble nature, his avoidance of negative politics, etc. Those who have no knowledge of the transcendental relationship between disciple and guru cheer when they hear of chastizement, but the disciple is very blissful, knowing that chastizement by the Spiritual master is the success of his life. Or didja all miss that chapter. One minute into debate with these folks on the issue of guru tattwa and all ya hear is names of the fallen thrown about, the joy of their forgetfulness.

Hearing and chanting criminal pastimes of Vaisnava Aparadhis and Kali Cela has become the religion of some, alas, some very dear friends. Never do they write of Bhakti Yoga. They dismiss his books sometimes worse than the grammatical adventurism imposed on His books by their great enemy, the ISKCON editor in chief. The greatest joy of thier lives comes from hearing of the DEFEAT of other Vaisnavas. They may write one line, once, in praise of a passing saint like Srimati Jaya Radhe dd, yet they devote months in research, daily elaborate essays concerning a peer's nervous breakdown, untimely disease, the token horrible karma (both action and reaction define as karma, BTW), defeat by MAYA. Hip, Hip, Hooray!

The number game is actually on my side. The rtviks say they are the majority, and the ISKCON faithful will declare the same. But actually, combined, their number is quite a bit less than those of us who are just gone, independent, alone, without faction, but still disciples of Srila Prabhupada, which means he doesnt let us go, ever. Ill use this unmoderated forum to say my piece, moderated accordingly.

 

Hare Krsna, TBC, mahaksadasa