Guest guest Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 Dear Puru prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja. Thank you for the points you posted on my other thread regarding the issues between Babajis and the Gaudiya Math. I sent your three points to a disciple of Srila Ananta dasa Babaji to get his answers. From what he says two of the three points you brought up are not points of contention at all. I thought others may be interested in his responses and maybe this can be another thing that separates us that is of no use. Your servant, Radha Govinda dasa Rasaraja dasa Apr 14, 2007 10:28 AM Radha Govinda dasa Re: Re: Re: questions Dear Radha Govinda dasa, Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas. As I am traveling heavily over the next 6 weeks I don’t have access to many books nor will I have the ability to really research any of your questions until I return home for good. With so much travel and two young son’s at home my time when I do return home for short intervals has to be carefully balanced. I appreciate your divulging where all of these questions came from. I have heard of the Audarya website although I have never participated there nor have I read much there. Simply put I prefer not to get involved in the types of conversations and/or debates that plague most websites. I don’t see much point on focusing on what I may differ from another Vaisnava on rather I believe we should focus on what we have in common. Surely that would be much more pleasing to our Guardians, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Sri Yugal Kishora. Since your questions seem to be simply for your own clarification then I will do my best to answer but I request that I not be inserted into someone’s debate. If you are going to share this with others, especially those debating over these things, please ensure my email is kept private. I have no time or inspiration to enter into the fray, if you will. I have a tremendous amount of love and respect for Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Swami Prabhupada and their many followers. My “leaving” had nothing to do with some perceived notion that they lack anything rather it was based on where my faith and aspirations are best nurtured. There are many Vaisnavas in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Matha whom I hold in high regard and whom I continue to communicate with, host when possible and who are integral to my spiritual life. Personally it isn’t a matter of “us vs. them” rather different rivers that meet at the same sea. If you want specific information to my history you can look here. I have met your Gurudeva on a few occasions. The first was in Philadelphia in 1990 when I first joined the ashrama. Later I met him again in Philadelphia in 1993. I remember he gave a talk on his remembrances of Srila AC Bhaktivednata Swami Prabhupada. When he was done it felt like he had only spoken for a few minutes yet three hours had passed. It was a great experience. I also remember that his disciples put a garland on him that had grapefruits on it and I wondered how he didn’t seriously hurt his neck wearing it! I don’t know Srila Narayana Maharaja well. I had the opportunity to host Srila Narayana Maharaja on his first US Tour, which at the time was not very well received by ISKCON and most of the followers of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami in New York. The whole scenario and all that transpired was very stressful and at times we were put into a very bad positions by some of Maharaja’s followers but t was all worth it when we actually got to host Maharaja. He was so sweet and affectionate to us. He was grateful that we extended the invitation and hosted him especially knowing all of the hassle we received from the local devotees and all the maneuvering we had to do in regards to the GBC to make it happen. The day after we hosted Maharaja we made the hour car ride to where he was staying in NJ to bring him a picture of 26 Second Avenue and a piece of the floor from Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami’s time at 26 Second Avenue. To us 26 Second Avenue is a tirtha and Maharaja really encouraged that meditation for us. We sat with him on the lawn of the place he was staying for about 45 minutes. Again Maharaja was very affectionate, sweet and encouraging. He told us that we would always be in his heart. To this day it is still an exchange that I hold as important to my spiritual life. The blessings of the Vaisnavas, even if there is difference in faith and/or practice, is always a treasure we should hold dear to your heart. In regards to Maharaja’s class in which these questions arose from I know that Maharaja is a very well learned Vaisnava and I doubt that he sees these questions and or differences as simplistic, black and white topics. Rather he has a fixed faith in the teachings of his Gurudeva and Param Gurudeva and the hold a certain faith/understanding. Certainly if you read the writings of the Gaudiya Acaray’s you will find differing angles of vision on different points. Another point is that it is always a bit tricky to utilize a class, conversation or purport to summarize someones understanding on a complex subject. So to utilize Maharaja’s points to show the “faults” of the “Babaji’s” as if they are some unified group with a unified philosophy is a bit silly. I’m sure Maharaja is well aware that there is great differences of theological conclusions and practice between those that live at Radha Kunda and who have accepted Babaji vesa. I do know Puru dasa from my time in New York in the early to late 90’s. He has an incredible family. Very sweet wife and daughters. My wife and I bumped into his eldest daughter in LA a few years back. My wife knew her since the time that she was a young child and they spoke for some time. At the time I believe she was traveling with a bhajan group of Maharajas. We gave her a donation for her upkeep and their program. As for Puru dasa we had some interesting exchanges over the years. At the time of Maharajas first visit to the US he wasn’t favorable towards Maharaja, probably due to all of the propaganda, but on Maharaja’s second visit to NY I remember seeing Puru dasa come to one of Maharaja’s lectures at 25 First Avenue, which was a property owned by Kirtanananda’s people who were hosting some of Maharaja’s lectures, and I believe since then he has been under Maharaja’s guidance which can only be a good thing. On to your questions regarding the teachings of my Baba and the points that Puru dasa brought out to you regarding my baba’s teachings: A. Gaudiya Vaisnavas are not connected with the Madhva-sampradaya – This is not correct. We certainly do recognize the connection to the Madhava Sampradaya. Not sure where this comes from. B. Prabodhananda and Prakasananda are the same person – You attributed this to the preface of my Baba’s translation of Radha-rasa-sudha-nidhi however there is no preface, at least not in the editions I have. This is accurate but unfortunately I don’t have anything at my disposal currently to expand on this point. I will say that this is not an unusual belief and isn’t specific to one group. I can research a bit more when I get home if you'd like. C. Jiva Gosvami is a viewed as a svakiya-vadi – Again this is not correct. To be honest I don’t even know what to make of this as I have never heard such. This isn’t to say that no one has ever asserted it as I am sure somewhere someone may have said such. I find that many attribute such conclusions, mostly from things said by westerners who have left ISKCON or the Gaudiya Matha for a “traditional” group, as being some philosophy or conclusion of those outside those two groups. That couldn’t be farther from the truth. Simply put there aren’t two sides (i.e. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s followers and the “Babaji’s”) rather there is probably dozens, if not hundreds, of varying sides. Simply put, the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Swami differ from one another, in some extents greatly, although they all come from the same seed (parivar) so what to speak of the varying nature of all of those groups who come from different seeds? D. Tell me about siddha deha initiation, how and why one can just pick and choose their “identity” and why it is seen as must? Isnt harinama enough? When does one get it and how do you utilize it in lila smaranam – First it is important to understand that there is no “siddha deha initiation” rather it is a form of siksa. One doesn’t pick and choose their “identity” as it is revealed to the Guru in meditation specific to an individual disciples identity and ones service to Sri Yugal Kishora. It certainly isn’t “a must” rather it is an aid to bhajan. Harinama and service to a Guru is the only must. There is no determined time as to when one receives such instruction. It is a matter of inspiration for both the disciple and Guru and not of a timeline. Finally how do I personally utilize the details of my siddha deha given to me by my Gurudeva in lila smaranam? I don’t. Without being too specific ones use of such information, in regards to lila smaranam, is a rather tenuous thing. Srila Sanatana Goswami in Brhad-bhagavatamrta says that smaranam (remembering) arises naturally out of kirtanam. So one having the details of their siddha deha doesn’t equate to one utilizing it in lila smaranam. Initially it is utilized in ones practice of mantramayi-upasana, or yogapitha-seva, which is a static practice (i.e. specific scenario, seva, etc.) in both Navadvip (with Sri Caitanya and his eternal associates) and Radha Krishna (in Vrindavan with Sri Yugal Kishora and their eternal associates). As one advances their self-esteem is gradually established, in terms of ones spiritual identity, and eventually as one can become fixed in the practice of lila smaranam such information becomes relevant to one another. I cannot stress enough that there is no “Babaji doctrine” just as there is no “Sanyassa doctrine”. Different parivars will have different understandings of philosophical points, practices and such. Also note that most of us, at least initially, attributed “traditional Gaudiya Vaisnavas” to the handful of initial western converts to groups outside of ISKCON and the Gaudiya Matha. In some respects the most they have in common with one another is that they have history with ISKCON as, from a standpoint of theology and practice, their respective traditional parivars differ in many cases. For example, if you look at the most widely known individuals attributed to "the Babaji's", you will find some interesting differences. The foundation of Advaita dasa’ faith and teachings of his parivar is radically different then that of Jagatananda dasa, Nitai dasa and such. Again the only thing that they have in common is their past with ISKCON as their later paths are very different both in terms of theology, practice and such. If you want to understand the differences between Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Swami or Srila Bhaktivednata Swami from a specific parivar then you have to seek out information from that specific group. Not just assume that because someone initiated by X Babaji represents the understanding and teachings of Y Babaji. Again I think the point is easily understood within the context of ISKCON and the Gaudiya Matha who all come from the same exact seed so it should be even easier to understand when looking at parivars outside of these groups. The whole dynamics of receiving siddha deha and how that relates to ones bhajan is definitely an example of a practice that is anything but standard. A long time ago I remember reading someone’s biography, I believe it was a disciple of Srila Lalita Prasad, who spoke of choosing his siddha deha with his Guru. In the story he talked about going back and forth on different details based on his attraction. This is certainly very different than what is given by my Gurudeva. If you want more information on how Srila Lalita Prasad’s disciples understand such it is best to ask them as I have no understanding if it. I don’t even know how that jives with the practices of Srila Lalita Prasad’s Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, although I would assume it is the same. Not all Babaji’s offer diksa, not all Babaji’s give their disciples information on their siddha deha and for those that do the process, timelines and sadhana will differ greatly. There is no clearly defined Side A and Side B as many like to portray it. Again it is actually a very dynamic and variant landscape. Okay well that is about as much as I have to offer today. If you need more clarification or have other questions feel free to drop me a line. As I said above I am traveling pretty much non stop over the next 6 weeks so I may take some time to answer and may not always be able to be as specific as you or I would like. Take care. Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas, Rasaraja dasa Radha Govinda dasa Apr 15, 2007 8:29 AM Rasaraja dasa Re: Re: questions Dear Rasaraja prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories your Gurudeva. I am sorry that I didn’t clarify the reason for my questions. I am a disciple of His Holiness Srila Jayapataka Swami, Do you know him? I had originally responded to a thread on a message board called the Audarya Fellowship, which spoke about your Gurudeva. Do you know the website? I had the opportunity to meet your Gurudeva before and know that he is well respected by many ISKCON devotees and even met some disciples of Srila Narayana Maharaja’s at his ashrama. I felt the tone at the message board was disrespectful and dangerous and asked for clarification on some things. From that I received a few replies. The person I was primarily requesting clarification from was simply not interested in clarifying his points and seems happily entrenched in blaspheming Vaisnavas without a sense of responsibility. However I happened upon a Puru dasa, who is a disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja, who posted a few comments which I found interesting. Do you have any experiences with Srila Narayana Maharaja regarding your Gurudeva? Do you know Puru dasa? He seems to be a very vocal representative of Narayana Maharaja? His comments came from a lecture by Srila Narayana Maharaja called “Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis”. I don’t want to offend you but was curious to your response. Your servant, Radha Govinda dasa Rasaraja dasa Apr 14, 2007 7:15 PM Radha Govinda dasa Re: questions Dear Radha Govinda dasa, Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas. Thanks for your note. Have we ever met before? Before I answer your questions I have to ask what has prompted them? As I don’t know that we know one another I was a bit surprised to find an email from you of this nature. I will be happy to answer them but at the same time prefer to know who it is I am talking to and what has prompted the questions I am answering. Who is your Gurudeva? Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas, Rasaraja dasa Radha Govinda dasa Apr 10, 2007 3:47 PM Rasaraja dasa questions Dear Rasaraja prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to your Gurudeva. I have a few questions regarding your Gurudeva’s teachings which I find hard to understand. Can you tell me more about your Gurudevas teachings on the following: A. Gaudiya Vaisnavas are not connected with the Madhva-sampradaya. B. Prabodhananda and Prakasananda are the same person. In the preface of your Gurudevas translation of Radha-rasa-sudha-nidhi he states this. C. Jiva Gosvami is a viewed as a svakiya-vadi. D. Tell me about siddha deha initiation, how and why one can just pick and choose their “identity” and why it is seen as must? Isnt harinama enough? When does one get it and how do you utilize it in lila smaranam. Your servant, Radha Govinda dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 Since your questions seem to be simply for your own clarification then I will do my best to answer but I request that I not be inserted into someone’s debate. If you are going to share this with others, especially those debating over these things, please ensure my email is kept private. I have no time or inspiration to enter into the fray, if you will. quote by Rasaraja Prabhu Why did you not honor the Prabhu's desire, Radha Govinda dasa. He was very kind to you by replying to your email, considering he does not know you. Obviously he is a very nice devotee who does not desire to enter such discussion on this forum. Really you have shown him great disrespect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Why did you not honor the Prabhu's desire, Radha Govinda dasa. He was very kind to you by replying to your email, considering he does not know you. Obviously he is a very nice devotee who does not desire to enter such discussion on this forum. Really you have shown him great disrespect. Dear Bija prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and the Vaisnavas. When I read Rasaraja prabhus reply I took it to me that he didn't want his email address and personal website published so I took those out. I just sent him a note to clarify as I can see what you mean. If he says that he didnt want anything published I will aks the moderators to remove. Sorry . Your servant, Radha Govinda dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 After I posted my comments I realized you may have misunderstood. He wished his name to be private I feel. I have requested the moderators to delete the thread also. Sorry Prabhu for jumping down your thought and coming to wrong conclusion. Please understand that I appreciate Rasaraja Prabhu's thoughts, and also feel the need to respect all vaisnava's and parivars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Dear Bija prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and the Vaisnavas. I got a note back from Rasaraja prabhu. It seems that I did misunderstand but Rasaraja prabhu understood my intention and said that it was okay. I will be more careful next time. My x wife and Guru always tell me that sometimes I am too quick to read and too slow to think! Your servant, Radha Govinda dasa Rasaraja dasa Apr 14, 2007 6:48 PM Radha Govinda dasa Re: Re: Re: questions Dear Radha Govinda dasa, Dandavats. All glories to the Vaisnavas. Thanks for the quick note. I accept your apology and there is no harm. My email and points certainly wasn't the most poetic but I don't think there is anything in there I feel uncomfortable with. I admire your desire to bring peace to the Vaisnava community and I believe, that in individual dealings, there generally is. I just caution you to think you can change those who don't want to change. I doubt my email will mean much to someone who already has their mind made up. Find a sanga where you are fulfilled spiritually and thrive within it. When dealing with those with different feelings simply offer your respects and focus on what you have in common and can appreciate the most about that Vaisnava. I am off to pack and catch an airplane to Dallas. I think that when things settle later this summer we can indeed meet. Aspiring to serve the Vaisnavas, Rasaraja dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Dear Radha-Govinda prabhu, I followed your posts in the other thread but was disheartened to see that you had not registered a profile here, and was even more disheartened that the thread was closed and there was no way of getting in touch with you. I am happy to see you here again, and I would appreciate if you could get in touch with me by PM'ing me your email address or whatever and we can continue talking by email. I hope you agree, I admired the content of your posts very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I must also add that I'm deeply impressed by the attitude & soft-heartedness of Rasaraja dasa prabhu. Indeed, there are many different Vaisnava groups that do not see eye to eye. But rather than pick at each others camps, why not focus on one's own sadhana and find groups that can nurture it, as suggested by Rasaraja dasa. Thank you Radha-Govinda prabhu for posting this exchange. It provides an exemplary example of how to conduct oneself when faced with opposing viewpoints. Dear Radha-Govinda prabhu, I followed your posts in the other thread but was disheartened to see that you had not registered a profile here, and was even more disheartened that the thread was closed and there was no way of getting in touch with you. I am happy to see you here again, and I would appreciate if you could get in touch with me by PM'ing me your email address or whatever and we can continue talking by email. I hope you agree, I admired the content of your posts very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru Das, das anudas Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Seems to me that 2+2=5 in this discussion and not 4. That is because Srila Narayana Maharaja's class: Boycott the Sahajiya Babajis http://www.bvml.org/SBNM/btsb.htm was never directed specifically at Ananta das Babaji Maharaja, or any other individual. His remarks summarize three basic philosophical differences between the followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and other groups, not specifically identified that have a different mind set. Such concepts may be shared either partially or completel by certain individuals, no matter. We know that Srila Ananta das Babaji Maharaja speaks very beautifully and his subject matter is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the books left by the six gosvamis. As far as I know he does not accept our guru varga and therefore we are hesitant to hear from him on the advanced topics he speaks and writes about. In this hesitancy, or conservative position, there is no criticism of him, only an exercise ofour discrimination and choice as to which sadhu's we will follow, take shelter of and give our heart to. Love is never forced and everyone will vote with their feet and march to the beat of their own drum. NO harm. Birds of any feather will flock together. FYI I asked Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja in Brazil if I could examine Srila Ananta das babaji Maharaja's books. He said to me "No harm." But the only problem remains for me that the only English translations of his work are done by someone who has an inimical attitude toward my siksa guru. So better safe than sorry. BTW Jagatananda (who was mentioned) appears to have adopted all three philosophical divergances mentioned by SBVNM. Once on the vnn forum I had a long argument with him as to the veracity of a book from the 13th century, supposedly proving that Prakasananda Sarasvati and Prabhodananda Sarasvati were identical personalities. He told me, "SBSST simply was not aware of that book." This showed his acceptance of the second divergance, that he had no faith at all in our guru varga. It is a preposterous proposal that a mahabhagavata like SBSST would "require" corrobaration of anything related to spiritual life, from a 13th century scholar. Prerposterous to anyone with even slight realization about the guru varga we accept, but logical to the lecogographical empiricists, mayavadis and sahajiya followers like jagat. In other posts he also betrayed his position by declaring that he thought Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, "Invented" shastra. Whatever. Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja has written a much more extensive critique on the differences between our guru varga and other groups, in his essay about third initiation: <table style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="84%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="2" bgcolor="#ccffcc" width="82%">Five Essential Essays - Prabandha Panchakam</td> <td align="right" bgcolor="#ccffcc" valign="top" width="18%"> View Download</td> </tr> <tr> <td align="center" valign="top" width="5%"></td> <td class="inhalttext" colspan="2" width="95%">This exceptional book is a compilation of five different essays which Srila Gurudeva has written over the past 20 years in defense of Gaudiya sampradaya tattva siddhanta. Each refutation is elaborately and conclusively proven with evidence from sastra. Included in this edition are two lectures by Srila Gurudeva which glorify and follow the example of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada who boldly re-established the true conceptions of Sriman Mahaprabhu and the gosvamis, and began the preaching mission which is today bringing this pure bhakti tattva siddhanta to every country in the world.</td></tr></tbody></table> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Seems to me that 2+2=5 in this discussion and not 4. That is because Srila Narayana Maharaja's class was never directed specifically at Ananta das Babaji Maharaja, or any other individual. Dear Puru prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja. The reason that I asked specifically about your points and Srila Ananta dasa Babaji is that you posted those three points in a thread specifically asking about someones hostility towards Srila Ananta dasa Babaji. I dont think that is 2+2=5 on my end? You make very nice points on why you dont hear from Srila Ananta dasa Babaji Maharaja. I would agree that we shouldn't take siksa from someone who has a differing faith than our parampara just as I doub't one of his disciples would take siksa from someone n our paramapara. We should be respectful though and you were very respectful on this so thank you ! Your servant, Radha Govinda dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Since your questions seem to be simply for your own clarification then I will do my best to answer but I request that I not be inserted into someone’s debate. If you are going to share this with others, especially those debating over these things, please ensure my email is kept private. I have no time or inspiration to enter into the fray, if you will. IMO his request was fullfilled. But even if his name is deleted I would hope the post would remain along with the replies. Although the topic is far far above my pay grade still I can appreciate the tone and wisdom of Rasaraja's words. It has long distressed me to see the acromony between the the so-called "babaji camps" and the "world preacher camps." I say so-called because on the strength of the words of Rasaraja I have learned that many differences on many philosophical points in regard to sadhana and entering Krsna lila may exist between the babaji's themselves and not just between them and the preacher class of vaisnavas. I have never accepted that a true disciple of Srila Prabhupada would see someone who lived 24/7 at Radha Kunda engaged in bhajana as some kind of enemy to be disrespected. And visa versa from them to Srila Prabhupada. Just different modes in devotion being expressed. I am now even more firmly convinced then ever that those that take to lower mode arguments against the other have no solid standing in either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru Das, das anudas Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Dear Puru prabhu, Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja. . . . i would agree that we shouldn't take siksa from someone who has a differing faith than our parampara just as I doub't one of his disciples would take siksa from someone n our paramapara. We should be respectful though and you were very respectful on this so thank you ! Your servant, Radha Govinda dasa If we are strict with ourselves and only repeat what we have heard from our spiritual masters then there is no question of disrespecting any living entity,as pure devotees bear no animosity toward anyone. There is however the matter of satyam, and His Divine Grace Srila Prabhpada has written in the purport to Bg. 10,4-5 as follows: ". . . Satyam, truthfulness, means that facts should be presented as they are for the benefit of others. Facts should not be misrepresented. According to social conventions, it is said that one can speak the truth only when it is palatable to others. But that is not truthfulness. The truth should be spoken in a straight and forward way, so that others will understand actually what the facts are. If a man is a thief and if people are warned that he is a thief, that is truth. Although sometimes the truth is unpalatable, one should not refrain from speaking it. Truthfulness demands that the facts be presented as they are for the benefit of others. That is the definition of truth. . . ." So in that mood, and particularly to protect their disciples from what they feel are misdirections in the matter of how to execute sadhana, GAudiya acaryas like SBSST and HDGSACBSP, and SBVNM sometimes are impelled to speak out on what may appear to be controversial or "political" topics. They advise their followers against what they feel are unbona fide methods of devotional practice that serve to ultimately degrade and not really benefit any sadhaka. We know how strongly His Divine Grace felt about gopi bhava groups, and sahajaism. He felt it was the greates enemy to "preaching" KC.Here is another example: Question: In Sri Brahma-samhita it is described that Sri Sri Radha and Krsna are seated on a divine throne, and the whorl of the lotus flower upon which They are seated is described as a hexagonal figure. What is the meaning of this hexagonal figure? Srila Guru Maharaja: I am sorry, but we are not to enter into the discussion of such higher and subtle position of the Lila of Radha-Krsna. That is not to be brought into public, and that is the distinction between the Gaudiya Math and the sahajiya section. The sahajiyas are trying to imitate all this things, but we have no faith in imitation. The higher Lila will come in an individual case, and it will awaken in an irresistible way. When the programme of the sadhana stage is finished it will come automatically, spontaneously. We are believers in that, and not to know the form already and then we will reach there -- that is not the policy accepted by Guru Maharaja, Prabhupada: Transcribed from an informal talk at Nabadwip Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math on 13th March , 1981. Fools Rush In Where Angels Fear to Tread by Srila Bhaktiraksaka Sridara Goswami Maharaja http://bvml.org/SBRSM/index.htm We also know that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarsavati Thakura preached very strongly against certain groups of babas, and did not advocate siddha pranali initiations for undeserving practitioners, especially neophyte disciples who must first execute the regulative principles of vaidhi bhakti and make gradual progress from aropa siddha bhakta to sanga siddha bhakti and eventually to svarupa siddha bhakti but only when they have sufficient adhikara, and otherwise not. Sravanam kirtanam with the emphasis on kirtanam first so one may become quailfied to practice sravanam correctly and with the proper deep insights it truly requires. Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja http://bvml.org/SBBTM/index.htm pointed out to me that sahajiya groups never study the Sri Upadesamrta of Srila Rupa Gosvami, only the other books he wrote. He told me that they are "afraid" of the subject matter in those verses,especially sloka one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru Das, das anudas Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 It has long distressed me to see the acromony between the the so-called "babaji camps" and the "world preacher camps." I say so-called because on the strength of the words of Rasaraja I have learned that many differences on many philosophical points in regard to sadhana and entering Krsna lila may exist between the babaji's themselves and not just between them and the preacher class of vaisnavas. . . . . Might I point out that strong philosophical differences also manifested directly amongst the disciples of SBSST after his departure. . THe followers of Ananata Vasudeva, to this day, do not accept the pancha tattva mantra, and the potency of the maha mantra. <CENTER>jaya sri-krishna-chaitanya prabhu nityananda sri-adwaita gadadhara shrivasadi-gaura-bhakta-vrinda </CENTER> TRANSLATION I offer my respectful obeisances unto Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Lord Nityananda, Sri Advaita, Gadadhara Pandit, Srivas Thakur, and all the devotees of Lord Caitanya. They chant a different mantra. One of their followers who lives behind the large S. Indian Mahaprabhu temple on the parikrama marga, just before the town of Radha Kunda, told me "You cannot enter the kunja by chanting hare krsna maha mantra or the pancha tattva mantra. This is bcause you are chanting nama aparadha and therefore You must chant this other mantra." When I tried to recite the pancha tattva mantra verse out loud, He would not allow me to finish the mantra past Sri Krsna Caitanya. He had no regard for Lord Nityananda, ekanda guru tattva. He is convinced he can "enter the kunja" without the mercy of Lord Nityananda. No suprise that Srila Prabhupada cautioned us about hearing from such confused persons and felt so strongly about the affect his godbrother's deviation from the teachings of SBSST and SBT had upon the Gaudiya Matha, and wrote this: http://www.bvml.org/ACBSP/viraha.htm ". . . But in your absence, Srila Prabhupada, The ‘resolute determination’ explained by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura* Has become broken by the forces of darkness And those who were not fixed in devotional service Have divided your holy Gaudiya Mission into many separated branches. It appears that the essence of your teachings did not enter very deeply into their ears, And that the tigress of desire for material prestige Has regrettably claimed a great many victims. Indeed, I am wondering where I, too, will receive the strength To remain steady in my bhajana in separation from your lotus feet. O Srila Prabhupada. The depth of your compassion was such that the suffering of the misguided humanity was a cause of much suffering for you; And I am acutely feeling lost and alone On this day of your departure from our vision. 5 Persons afflicted by the jaundice of ignorance Cannot taste the ambrosial sweetness Of the heart-transforming names of Hare, Krsna, and Rama. And therefore they do not chant the holy Maha-mantra. Whose thirty-two syllables are like resplendent pearl-like droplets Which constitute the elixir of immortality--- The very medicine for curing the disease of such persons. One of your closest disciples Whose cup you lovingly filled to the brim With the deathless nectar of your instructions Has ungratefully thrown away that chalice, And his regrettable preference for infectious poison Has resulted in an epidemic of sahajiyaism. It seems that the prize valiantly acquired by the triumphant lion Has at present been unscrupulously stolen by a jackal. The oppressive forces of nescience have reduced everyone to tears, And it appears that each of the young lions Is ‘again becoming a mouse.’ O Srila Prabhupada Where are your pure teachings to be found at this dark hour? Standing as we are on the shore of the ocean of spiritual devastation, Only your lifesaving glance of causeless mercy can save us from certain death Only by your infallible grace can we perceive a way to somehow retrace our steps: To return to al life of divine remembrance of the Holy Name in great happiness And implicit faith in your ‘Vaikuntha message”. O blessed master, please awaken some good intelligence In this insignificant servant of yours, Increasing the fullness of his faith in your sublime message day by day. You compassionately took the suffering of misguided humanity Upon your own holy head, And I am feeling severe pangs of separation from your lotus feet On this day upon which you disappeared for our vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puru Das, das anudas Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 . I have never accepted that a true disciple of Srila Prabhupada would see someone who lived 24/7 at Radha Kunda engaged in bhajana as some kind of enemy to be disrespected. And visa versa from them to Srila Prabhupada. Just different modes in devotion being expressed. I am now even more firmly convinced then ever that those that take to lower mode arguments against the other have no solid standing in either. Srila Prabhupada's attitude toward Radha Kunda is nicely explained in the purports to verse 9 of Nectar or Instruction: "In Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila) it is stated that when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu first visited the area of Vrajabhumi, He could not at first find the location of Radha-kunda. This means that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was actually searching for the exact location of Radha-kunda. Finally He found the holy spot, and there was a small pond there. He took His bath in that small pond and told His devotees that the actual Radha-kunda was situated there. Later the pond was excavated by Lord Caitanya's devotees, headed first by the six Gosvamis, such as Rupa and Raghunatha dasa. Presently there is a large lake known as Radha-kunda there. Srila Rupa Gosvami has given much stress to Radha-kunda because of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's desire to find it. Who, then, would give up Radha-kunda and try to reside elsewhere? No person with transcendental intelligence would do so. The importance of Radha-kunda, however, cannot be realized by other Vaisnava sampradayas, nor can persons uninterested in the devotional service of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu understand the spiritual importance and divine nature of Radha-kunda. Thus Radha-kunda is mainly worshiped by the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, the followers of Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu." NOI Vese 9 There are other more remarkable statements in the purports to vereses 10, 11 and 12. However, despite Srila Prabhupada's deep appreciationand realization about Radha Kunda, I never heard HDG advocate to any of his followers to take up residence there prematurely. Nevertheless look at what he says in the last purport to verse 11: ". . . It is stated that a devotee will at once develop pure love of Krsna in the wake of the gopis if he once takes a bath in Radha-kunda. Srila Rupa Gosvami recommends that even if one cannot live permanently on the banks of Radha-kunda, he should at least take a bath in the lake as many times as possible. This is a most important item in the execution of devotional service. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In this connection Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura writes that even great sages and great devotees like Narada and Sanaka do not get an opportunity to come to Radha-kunda to take their baths. What, then, to speak of ordinary devotees? If, by great fortune, one gets an opportunity to come to Radha-kunda and bathe even once, he can develop his transcendental love for Krsna, exactly as the gopis did. It is also recommended that one should live on the banks of Radha-kunda and should be absorbed in the loving service of the Lord. One should bathe there regularly and give up all material conceptions, taking shelter of Sri Radha and Her assistant gopis. If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Sri Radha in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Radha-kunda. The conclusion is that to live on the banks of the Radha-kunda and to bathe there daily constitute the highest perfection of devotional service. It is a difficult position to attain, even for great sages and devotees like Narada. Thus there is no limit to the glory of Sri Radha-kunda. By serving Radha-kunda, one can get an opportunity to become an assistant of Srimati Radharani under the eternal guidance of the gopis." NOI PUrport verse 11 HDGSACBSP Actual residence at Radha Kunda is something very extraordinary. Who is qualfied to perform genuine bhajana there? Only Vaisnavas on the level of Srila Raghunatha das Gosvami, and Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. If living on the banks of Radha-kunda and bathing there daiily is "a difficult position to attain, even for great sages and devotees like Narada," then what to speak of ordinary jivas like ourselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaurasundara Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 I am now even more firmly convinced then ever that those that take to lower mode arguments against the other have no solid standing in either. Bravo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 Nice to see you are back with us here Gaurasundara. Love your 'Avatar' also. =:^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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