Cit-sakti (s’akti), Tatastha-sakti (s'akti) And the mahat-tattva

Vigraha · April 16, 2007

Cit-sakti (s’akti), Tatastha-sakti (s'akti)

And the mahat-tattva.

Consciousness or Cit-S’akti does not originate from the maha-tattva; no consciousness can originate from the mahat-tattva.

Cit - The Absolute; foundational consciousness; the consciousness that is the unchanging principle of all changes. What is Cit? There is no word in the English language, which satisfactorily describes it. So lets explain it the simplest way possible.

There are two separate main aspects of creation; presently our consciousness is in the mahat-tattva (dreaming - Svapna avastha) transferred there from our original bodily source outside the mahat-tattva. (Jagrat avastha – fully awake) This is hard to understand because ones consciousness is transferred from an imperishable atmosphere to a perishable one.

All individual consciousness originates from out side the maha-tattva, even that of Maha-Vishnu who is an expansion of Balarama who builds the dark cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky. The mahat-tattva is therefore born from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky and manifests as a dark cloud in that same Spiritual Sky.

Consciousness or Cit-Sakti like tatastha-sakti, does not originate from the maha-tattva; no consciousness can ever originate from the mahat-tattva, that is not possible because individual consciousness is first transferred their due to the marginal living entities (vigraha’s) choice to have their independent non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts manifest as a secondary dimensional state of conscious that disqualifies one from serving as their rasa bodily self and enters the maha tattva as spiritual consciousness and is then immediately place in a material ethereal body.

Such extended individual secondary consciousness is not a product of Maha-Maya but rather housed by Maha-Vishnu and tempted by His good wife Maya-Devi, Maha-Maya or Durga. It must be clearly understood that when that secondary conscious lower self is transferred from their higher self rasa body originating in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm, it is not Maha-Maya that tempts them, that is not possible outside the mahat-tattva, and neither does Yoga-Maya throws/extends their consciousness out of their own body in Goloka either – it is simply choice that one wants to exploit the mahat-tattva and become confined to ethereal and later biological vessels if they foolishly choose to remain in the temporary mahat-tattva.

This stage of secondary consciousness in the mahat-tattva is first called cit jada granthi [cit jud grunthi]: the division between pure Krishna consciousness and the non-Krishna conscious comatose state (insentient) that is known as the jiva-bhutah extended secondary consciousness (lower self) and housed in an ethereal or subtle body within the mahat-tattva. Chitta [chitt]: memory aspect of mind; the mental mode turned towards objects provided by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva.

Tatastha – sakti (s'akti) is not the origin of ones consciousness either

The tatastha-s'akti or energy is the third feature of the atma-vigraha devotee's (jiva-tattva's) extended conscious projection that does not recognize their original rasa body or even accept or believe they originate from Goloka, nor do they desire to be housed or confined to active ethereal and biological vessels in the mahat-tattva (material creation) however, such non-active desires are also temporary and one eventually falls from the tatastha consciousness to be housed in the confines of an ethereal body in the mahat-tattva provide by Maha-Vishnu.

The word tatastha means a neutral, disinterested, state of dormant consciousness that does not take any side, which means ones conscious awareness does not recognize its perpetual bodily self (jiva-atma-vigraha or jiva-tattva vigraha) in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (the perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious Kingdom of God), or interested in activating any secondary conscious dream state of self-importance that becomes housed in ethereal and biological vessels within the maha-tattva (material manifestation)

Therefore, the tatastha-s'akti is the jiva-tattva-vigraha or marginal living entity manifesting as their extended lower self or secondary dreaming consciousness, is only detectable as motionless, or individually dormantly merged in the transitional state of inactive consciousness (Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or creation), ONLY after travelling in ethereal (subtle body) and biological vessels provided within the mahat-tattva.

This means their extended consciousness is neither in the active beautiful imperishable Goloka-Grndavana/Vaikuntha realm or in the active perishable material realm, such a third state of conscious projection is neither energetically Krishna conscious, nor energetically material conscious but rather existing in a dreamless state of dormant consciousness called tatastha.

This is an alternative quiescent condition for the marginal living entity when unaware of both their fully potential Krishna Conscious body and its secondary conscious projections of counterfeit bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva

muralidhar_das · April 16, 2007

Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna

Hare Hare

April 17, 2007

Sri Jiva Goswami's elegant definition of God - all in one sentence!

"He who is the very form of existence, consciousness and bliss, who possesses inconceivable, multifarious and unlimited energies that are of his own nature, he who is the ocean of unlimited, mutually contradictory qualities, such that in him both the attribute and the possessor of attributes, the lack of differences and the varieties of difference, formlessness and form, pervasiveness and centrality all are true, who’s beautiful form is distinct from both gross and subtle entities, self-luminous and consisting entirely of his own nature, who has unlimited such forms that are manifested by his chief form called Bhagavan, who’s left side is beautified by Laksmi, who is the manifestation of his personal energy suitable to his own form, Bhagavan resides in his own abode along with his associates, who are all furnished with a form that is a special manifestation of his own splendor, who astonishes the hosts of atmaramas, those who take pleasure in the self, by his wonderful qualities, pastimes, et cetera, which are characterized by the playing of his personal energy, who’s own generic brilliance is manifested in the form of the reality, who is the sole shelter and life of this personal marginal energy called the jivas, who’s mere reflected energy are the gunas, visible in unlimited phenomenal world, that person is Bhagavan (Krishna)."

April 17, 2007

Jiva Goswami elaborately explained in his Sandarbhas that the jiva is manifest from the rays of light, the effulgence of Narayana. All the later commentators up to Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada have repeated this. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada also repeated this statement, sometimes. At other times he said things differently, in different places and circumstances (kala, patra, desa). However in the end the person who you are trying to refute, if you want to refute the doctrine that jivas originate from Brahman, is Sri Jiva Goswami, because in the definitive texts about Gaudiya philosophy, the Sandarbhas of Jiva Goswami, it is never mentioned that Jivas come from Goloka but rather that we originate in Brahman. Moreover if you are tying to introduce a NEW DOCTRINE OF ORIGINS different from what is taught in the Sandarbhas of Jiva Goswami then you are entering into very dangerous waters. You will stop being Gaudiya Vaishnavas and become ISKCONians, in much the same way as other new sects such as Swaminarayana have emerged on the scene in this Kali-yuga age.

Why hasn't ISKCON's GBC authorized someone to publish the statements of Jiva Goswami that put an end to this whole debate about origin of the Jiva? Why hasn't the GBC authorized anyone to publish an approved English edition of Jaiva Dharma where the same message is presented: Jivas originate from Brahman? Why? Because they can't come to terms with the fact that their ISKCON theories about the origin of the Jiva are wrong. They want to see this issue ignored. They present the "tal fruit logic" message to assert that there is no use discussing this point of philsophy. While at the same time they ignore the serious implications that arise from this apasiddhantic idea that eternal associates of Bhagavan who are manifest from the cit-sakti can become fallen souls, or in other words, jiva-shakti. According to Pradhyumna Swami and so forth any associate of Krishna in Goloka can get into Maya. Bogus apasiddhanta not supported by sastra. That's what you have in ISKCON. You don't even understand the basic message of Bhagavan who taught Arjuna "My devotee will never perish". Instead you tell people that their pure soul (everyone is a pure spark of Brahman) is envious and that we chose to become envious and go into Maya so we can enjoy being "Lords". When in fact the scriptures say that the small sparks of Brahman have limited knowledge and fell into illusion because they were unaware of the implications of attachment to Maya. The Caitanya Caritamrta and a host of other scriptures including the Bhagavatam say that the jiva is not the cit-shakti and never was but ISKCONians teach otherwise.

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Tatastha-sakti - Teachings from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

tac-chaktes chayaya visvam

sarvam etad vinirmitam

yatra bahirmukha jivah

samsaranti nijecchaya

tac-chaktes-of His potency; chayaya-by a shadow; visvam-the material world;

sarvam-all; etad-this; vinirmitam-created; yatra-where; bahirmukha-who have

turned their faces; jivah-the individual souls; samsaranti-wander;

nijecchaya-by their own wish.

By the shadow of Bhagavan's spiritual potency the entire material world is

created. In that material world wander the individual souls who have turned

their faces away from Bhagavan.

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

When he is a servant of Lord Krsna, the individual soul becomes like a son

who inherits the father's property. This inheritance is transcendental

bliss. When he turns his face away from Lord Krsna and tries to be

independent, the individual soul falls into the world of birth and death.

The spiritual potency helps the individual soul become more and more

elevated, and the material potency (maya-sakti), the potency that creates

the material world, helps the individual soul become more and more firmly

shackled in the prison house of repeated birth and death. The material

potency is a shadow of the spiritual potency. The individual souls who

deserve to go to the world of birth and death take birth in that world.

There he is given a gross and subtle material body to experience the various

perceptions of the material world. In this way he falls into the material

world and there suffers many troubles that come from the results of his

various activities (karma). There is one reason and one reason only that

these souls are in the material world. The reason is that they have turned

their faces away from Bhagavan (bhagavad-bahirmukha). It should be

understood that the individual spirit souls are not manifested from the

material world. Neither are they manifested from the spiritual world. They

are manifested from the border that separates those two worlds. For them

material pleasures may be more attractive than spiritual upliftment.

Therefore they may of their own will choose to stay in the world of birth

and death. For this Bhagavan is not to blame. Showing His mercy to these

souls, Bhagavan created the material world so they could enjoy there as they

wished. Bhagavan created the material world in such a way that after only a

few days of trying to enjoy there, the souls would become intelligent and

turn from those enjoyments. In this way Bhagavan created the path of

performing devotional activities in the association of saintly devotees.

Following that path, the souls become delivered from the material world.

(Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura: Tattva-viveka, 2.5)

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the shore (tata),

but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where

is the shore? The marginal tata is the line of distinction separating the

ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross

eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material

world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and

the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are

like the countless atomic particles of light in the rays of the sun. Being

situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side

and the material universe created by maya on the other. Bhagavan's

spiritual potency on one side is unlimited, and maya's potency on the other

side is also very powerful; and the innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are

situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature, because they

have manifested from Krsna's marginal potency.

Vrajanatha: What is the marginal nature?

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both

worlds, and to see both sides. The marginal nature is the tendency to come

under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged

in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land

because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks at Krsna-that is,

towards the spiritual world-he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters

the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual

form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna, and

is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the marginal

nature.

Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of

the jivas-this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly

understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now

I want to know whether the cit-sakti has created the jivas with their

marginal (tatastha) nature.

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is the complete potency of Krsna, and her

manifestations are all nitya-siddha beings. The jiva is not nitya-siddha,

although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy

transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas. All the four types of

Srimati Radhika's sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions

(kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. The jivas, on the

other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna's jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is

Sri Krsna's complete potency, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete

potency. Just as the complete tattvas are all manifestations of the

complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are

manifested from the incomplete potency.

Krsna establishes Himself in each of His saktis, and manifests His svarupa

according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the

cit-svarupa, He manifests His essential svarupa, both as Sri Krsna Himself,

and also as Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha; when He is situated in the

jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva;

and when He situates Himself in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Vinnu

forms, namely Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His

Krsna form, He manifests all the spiritual paraphernalia in Vraja. In His

Baladeva svarupa as sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta parnada jivas who

render eight types of service to Krsna Himself, the origin of sesa-tattva.

Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarnana in Vaikuntha, He manifests eight types of

servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates

of sesi-rupa (the origin of sesa-tattva) Narayana. Maha-Vinnu, who is an

expansion of Sankarnana, situates Himself in the heart of the jiva-sakti,

and as Paramatma manifests the jivas in the material world. These jivas are

susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of

the hladini-sakti by Bhagavan's mercy, it is possible that they will be

defeated by maya. The countless conditioned jivas who have been illusioned

by maya are under the control of the three modes of material nature.

Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti,

and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

(Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura: Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 15)

Vrajanatha said, "Prabhu, I am facing a problem, which I will tell you about

later. But first, please explain to me, If the jiva is a pure spiritual

entity, how did he become entangled in this miserable world?"

Babaji smiled and said:

svaruparthair-hinan nija-sukha-paran krsna-vimukhan

harer maya dandyan gunanigadhajalaih kalayati

tatha sthulair-lingai dvividha-varanaih klesa-nikarai-

rmmahakarmalanair-nayati patitan svarga-nirayau

The jiva is by his original nature an eternal servant of Krsna, and his

svarupa-dharma is service to Krsna. Bhagavan's illusory energy (maya)

punishes those jivas who are opposed to Krsna, and who have given up their

constitutional dharma, and become absorbed in material enjoyment. She binds

them in the ropes of the three modes of material nature-sattva, rajas and

tamas-covers them with the gross and subtle bodies, puts them in the

miserable cycle of karma, and makes them suffer happiness and distress in

heaven and hell.

"Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-bihari

Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear

from Sri Sankarnana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the

spiritual sky. They eternally relish rasa, engaged in the service of their

worshipable Lord, and they always remain fixed in their constitutional

position. They always try to please the Lord, and are always favorable to

Him. By virtue of the spiritual potency, they have the strength to stay

fixed in their devotion, and they have no connection with the material

energy. In fact, they do not even know that there is an illusory energy

called maya. Since they reside in the spiritual world, maya stays far away

from them, and does not affect them at all. They are always absorbed in the

bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, so they are eternally liberated,

and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love

alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death and fear.

"There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jivas who appear from

Karanabdhisayi Maha-Vinnu's glance at maya. Since these jivas are situated

next to maya, they see her wonderful workings. Although they have all the

qualities of the jivas that I have already described, they are very weak

because of their atomic, marginal nature. Sometimes they are inclined to

look towards the spiritual world, and sometimes towards the material world.

The jiva in this marginal condition is very weak, because at that time he

does not have the spiritual strength that is received by the mercy of the

worshipable Lord. Among these unlimited jivas, those who want to enjoy maya

become engrossed in material sense gratification, and enter the eternally

conditioned state. On the other hand, those jivas who perform

cid-anusilanam of Bhagavan receive spiritual potency (cid-bala) by His

mercy, and enter the spiritual world. Baba, it is our great misfortune that

we have forgotten our service to Sri Krsna, and have become bound in the

shackles of maya. It is only because we have forgotten our constitutional

position that we are in this miserable condition."

Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I understand that this marginal position is at the

junction of the spiritual and material worlds. Why is it that some jivas go

from there to the material world, while others go to the spiritual world?

Babaji: Krsna's qualities are also present in the jivas, but only in minute

quantity. Krsna is supremely independent, so the desire to be independent

is eternally present in the jivas as well. When the jiva uses his

independence correctly, he remains disposed towards Krsna, but when he

misuses it, he becomes opposed to Him. It is just this opposition that

gives rise to the desire in the jiva's heart to enjoy maya. Because of the

desire to enjoy maya, he develops the false ego that he can enjoy material

sense gratification, and then the five types of ignorance- tamisra

(forgetfulness of one's constitutional position due to anger or envy),

andha-tamisra (considering death to be the ultimate end), tamas (not knowing

anything about the spirit soul), moha (the illusion of the bodily concept of

life) and maha-moha (madness for material enjoyment)-cover his pure, atomic

nature. Our liberation or subjugation simply depends on whether we use our

minute independence properly, or misuse it.

Vrajanatha: Krsna is very merciful, so why did He make the jiva so weak that

he became entangled in maya?

Babaji: It is true that Krsna is merciful. However, it is also His nature

to perform His pastimes. Krsna wants different pastimes to be enacted in

different situations, so He makes the jiva capable of being in all

conditions, from the marginal state to the highest state of mahabhava. So

that the jiva is fit to progress practically and steadfastly towards

adhikara in Krsna's service, He has also created the lower levels of

material existence, beginning from the lowest inert matter up to ahankara,

which cause extensive obstruction to the attainment of paramananda. The

jivas who are entangled in maya have fallen from their constitutional

position. They are opposed to Krsna, and they are engrossed in personal

sense gratification, but Sri Krsna is the reservoir of mercy; no matter how

much the jiva has fallen down, Krsna provides him with the full opportunity

to attain the highest spiritual position. He does this by appearing before

him along with His spiritual abode (dhama) and His eternal associates. The

jivas who take advantage of this merciful opportunity and sincerely endeavor

to attain the higher position gradually reach the spiritual world, and

attain a state that is similar to that of Sri Hari's eternal associates.

Vrajanatha: Why do the jivas suffer for the sake of Bhagavan's pastimes?

Babaji: The jivas have some independence, and this is a sign of Bhagavan's

special mercy on them. Inert objects are very insignificant and worthless

because they have no such desire for independence. It is only because of

the jiva's independent nature that he has become the lord of the material

world.

Misery and happiness are conditions of the mind. What we call misery is

happiness for one who is engrossed in it. All types of material sense

gratification result in nothing but misery, and a materialistic person only

achieves suffering in the end. When that suffering becomes excessive, it

gives rise to the desire for happiness. From that desire, wisdom arises,

and from wisdom, inquisitiveness is born. As a result of inquisitiveness,

one gets the association of saintly people, from which faith develops. When

faith is born, the jiva ascends to a higher stage, namely the path of

devotion.

Gold is purified by making it red-hot in a fire, and then hammering it. The

jiva has become impure because he is opposed to Krsna, and is engaging in

material sense gratification, and that is why he is purified by being beaten

with the hammers of misery on the anvil of this material world. Thus, the

misery of jivas who are opposed to Krsna finally results in happiness.

Suffering is therefore just a sign of Bhagavan's mercy. That is why

intelligent people see the suffering of jivas in Krsna's pastimes as

auspicious, whereas the foolish see it as an inauspicious source of misery.

Vrajanatha: The jiva's suffering in his conditioned state is ultimately

auspicious, but it is very painful in the present state. Krsna is

omnipotent, so couldn't He think of a path that is not so painful?

Babaji: This is one of Krsna's pastimes, which are variegated and wonderful.

Bhagavan is independent and almighty, and He performs all kinds of pastimes,

so why should this be the only one that He neglects? No pastime can be

rejected if there is to be full variety. Besides, the participants in other

types of pastimes also have to accept some sort of suffering. Sri Krsna is

the Lord and enjoyer (puruna), and the active agent (karta). All

ingredients and paraphernalia are controlled by His desire, and they are

subject to His activities. It is natural to experience some suffering when

one is controlled by the desire of the agent. However, if that suffering is

pleasurable in the end, it is not actually suffering. Why do you call it

suffering? The so-called suffering that one undergoes in order to nourish

and support Krsna's pastimes is actually very enjoyable. The jiva's desire

for independence has caused him to leave the pleasure of serving Krsna, and

to accept suffering in maya instead. This is the jiva's fault, not Krsna's.

Vrajanatha: What harm would there have been if the jiva had not been given

the desire for independence? Krsna is omniscient, and He gave this

independence to the jivas, even though He knew that they would suffer on

account of it, so isn't He responsible for the jivas' suffering?

Babaji: Independence is a precious jewel, in the absence of which inert

objects are insignificant and worthless. If the jiva had not received

independence, he would also have become as insignificant and worthless as

they are. The jiva is an atomic, spiritual entity, so he must certainly

have all the qualities of the spiritual objects. The only difference is

that Bhagavan, who is the complete spiritual object, possesses all these

qualities in full, whereas the jiva only has them to a very minute degree.

Independence is a distinctive quality of the spiritual object, and an

object's inherent quality cannot be separated from the object itself.

Consequently, the jiva also has this quality of independence, but only to a

very minute degree, because he is atomic. It is only because of this

independence that the jiva is the supreme object in the material world, and

the lord of creation.

The independent jiva is a beloved servant of Krsna, and Krsna is very kind

and compassionate. When He sees the misfortune of the jiva, who is misusing

his independence and becoming attached to maya, He runs behind that jiva,

crying and crying, and appears in the material world to deliver him. The

ocean of compassion, Sri Krsna, melting with compassion for the jivas, and

manifests His acintya-lila in the material world, because He thinks that His

appearance will enable the jiva to see His nectarean pastimes. However, the

jiva does not understand the truth about Krsna's pastimes, even after He has

showered him with so much mercy, so He then appears in Sri Navadvipa as a

guru. He Himself freely gives the ultimate and universal remedy, which is

chanting the glories of His name, form, qualities and pastimes, and He

inspires the jivas to take to this path by practicing it Himself. Baba, can

you accuse Krsna of being at fault in any way, when He is so merciful? His

mercy is unlimited, but our misfortune is very lamentable.

(Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura: Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 16)

gHari · April 18, 2007

Jaiva-Dharma 15: Babaji: "My darling, you should be very cautious while deliberating over these things and feel the presence of chit, having thrown off the unavoidable detestableness of words."

Some words are more detestable than others. Perhaps we should strive if we have to resort to words to resort to words that are least detestable. The words of the seers of the truth are destined to erode our arrogance and bring us to our reality of absolute humility.

April 18, 2007

Only being Krishna Conscious can really understand all on this thread

Try to get away from the concept of mundane material time of past present future and decay within the mahat-tattva and go to the perpetual creation outside of the mahat-tattva that has always been there and never fades.

Does that mean our spiritual body (vigraha) is already there? And has always been there? After all the Srimad-Bhagavatam states Goloka is an eternal place where there is no birth, disease, old age and death.

Isn't that the meaning of perpetual? No- one can actually leave there or enter there because thay are already there?

Our authentic body never leaves there because everything in Goloka-Vrndavana exists in the eternal unchanging present (Krishna’s Lila instance) without past or future as the Brahma-Samhita teaches us?

Only being Krishna Conscious can really understand all this because being Krishna Conscious is the only way to re-enter the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of the Spiritual Sky and return home, back to Godhead. Back to who we really are.

SRILA PRABHUPADA – “The verb pratipad means, "to be perceived or restored." The soul that is vinidra, free from the dreamlike condition of material consciousness, is restored to its constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord, Sri Krishna”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA -"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA - “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating a separate atmosphere or secondary conscious awareness for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA -“We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. FORMALEY WE WERE WITH KRISHNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA -“Just like in a dream we are thinking (dreaming we are so many bodily identities) for a very, very, very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA - “So this dreaming condition in the material universe is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA -“There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating a separate atmosphere or secondary conscious awareness for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

In Gaudiya Vaishnavism, a school of Vaishnavism, the Satvata-tantra describes three different bodily forms of Vishnu as Maha Vishnu, Garbhodakasayi Vishnu and Kshirodakasayi Vishnu, with each transcendental bodily having a different role in the maintenance of the material universe (mahat-tattva) and its inhabitants (those whose non-Krishna conscious dreams enters their ‘conscious awareness’ into the mahat-tattva)

For material creation, Lord Krishna's plenary expansion via His Balarama expansion assumes three Vishnu’s. The first one, Maha-Vishnu, creates the total material energy, known as the mahat-tattva. The second, Garbhodakasayi Vishnu, enters into all the universes to create diversities in each of them. The third, Kshirodakasayi Vishnu, is subtler and manifests as the all-pervading Supersoul in all the material universes and is known as Paramatma and accompanies all the transmitted consciousnesses (1/4 of the atma-vigraha devotee’s or marginal personalities, in their secondary self or lower consciousness) contained in ethereal and biological vessels, who’s jiva-bhutah consciousness was originally projected form their innovative source (atma-vigraha perpetual body) outside the mahat-tattva.

Kshirodakasayi Vishnu is also present even within the atoms because everything living or non-living is a creation of Krishna the Supreme Personality of Godhead of whom Maha-Vishnu is His dreaming expansion.

Anyone who knows these three Vishnu’s can be liberated from material entanglement and dispel their secondary lower consciousness and again be their full Krishna Conscious self (jiva-atma-vigraha) or rasa body in Krishna Lila.

When Maha-Vishnu glances at His material manifestation (mahat-tattva), He is simultaneously facilitating the transplantation or removal of inadequate non-Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and dreams, or the jiva-bhutah consciousness, from the Goloka realm. The individuals secondary dreaming lower non-Krishna conscious self, in this way is removed out of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual realm not as their rasa body, but rather as a conscious projection. Maha-Vishnu's glance is therefore transplaning ones secondary consciousness, via His Garbhodakasayi-Vishnu expansion, to begin their material existance.

The individual projected consciousness, or jiva-bhutah contained in an ethereal seed vessel, is the beginning stage of the nitya-baddha condition IN the imperishable material manifestation (MAHAT-TATTVA) and then that ssed grows from the lotus stem protruding from the naval of Garbhodakasayi-Vishnu (one of the billions of Garbhodakasayi-Vishnu contained within the globs emanating from the bodily pours of Maha-Vishnu) and appears on the top of a lotus flower as the ethereal or celestial body of Brahma that houses the secondary conscious condition emanating from the sub-consciousness of the marginal living entity (jiva-atma-vigraha-body) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual ream.

All individual conscious projections emanating from ones authentic Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, are first transferred by Maha-Vishnu's glance, and then given the form that appears as an ethereal seed provided by Maha-Vishnu/Garbhodakasayi-Vishnu. It is that ethereal seed that grows into the form of Brahma, who further creates his material universe.

Suhotra Prabhu – “Perhaps you still have a doubt about how a soul comes to think himself independent. It can be postulated that before he assumed the post of Brahma, that soul must have been with Krishna in His pastimes within the eternal realm of Goloka. How is it that this particular soul goes from there to the post of Brahma? (Although that may not be always the case)”

The first form or bodily vehicle ones conscious projection is given outside the Goloka realm is the vessel of an ethereal seed form provided AFTER Maha-Vishnu glances over His material manifestation. It is only then ones secondary consciousness or lower self, now in the vessel of an embryo within the mahat-tattva, awaits birth. This intermediate state of the jiva-bhutah secondary consciousness, now confined to ethereal seed form, is transferred first (before being confined to an material ethereal seed vessel) to within the ‘thoughts’ of Maha-Vishnu (remember, this is before being confined to seed form)

Maha-Vishnu in this way impregnates the maha-tattva via His glancing over all the billions upon billions of Garbhodakasayi Vishnu's. It is there all the jiva-bhutah consciousnesses (1/4 of all marginal living entities or vigraha’s secondary conscious manifestation), are transferred from their authentic Krishna Conscious bodily form in Goloka. After entering the thoughts of Maha-Vishnu, they are then after again further transferred by His glancing over His mahat-tattva creation; the projected jiva-bhutah consciousness is only then confined to an ethereal bodily seed or vessel waiting to be born from the naval of all the billions and billions and billions of Garbhodakasayi Vishnu’s. This is the first intermediate stage of ones transmitted secondary consciousness, AFTER transferring from the Goloka realm to the mahat-tattva. The second stage of intermediate consciousness occurs after existing in the mahat-tattva in ethereal and biological containers. That liberation where one’s consciousness is freed from the ethereal and biological vessels, is called tatastha

The first transformation from Goloka is described in many ways by the Vedas however; the projection of non-Krishna conscious individual secondary consciousness is the beginning point of embodiment. As soon as ones secondary consciousness enters the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu impregnates the material universe with His glance. Some mistake this seed form as the jiva-tatastha consciousness when in fact it is the lower self or secondary consciousness being transferred to the confines of an ethereal seed, which is a vessel the jiva-bhutah is given and confined too within the womb of the mahat-tattva (Maha-Vishnu's material creation further facilitated by Maya Devi, His expansions and the embodied jiva-bhutah demigods) that grows according to Maha-Vishnu’s blue print plan for each of the billions of material manifestation (globs) that simultaneously allows one to express their self centered desires, thoughts and dreams within the mahat-tattva and OUTSIDE of the Goloka-Vrndavana realm.

SRILA PRABHUPADA – “So when I say yes, there is eternal Lila with Krishna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krishna, he goes up only up to Brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the Lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming”.

SRILA PRABHUPADA - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Could it be, due to our long association in the perishable universe for such a long, long, long, long period of time, we mistaking believe we originate from the third temporary portion of creation (impersonal Brahmajyoti) where one attempts to escape from being active as both ones authentic self in the higher universe (due to forgetfulness) and ones counterfeit self in the lower reality, forgetting ones previous active existence, not only in the impermanent lower universe (mahat-tattva), but unaware of that the manifestation of ones secondary consciousness originated from the higher universe (beautiful Goloka)?

This is how we enter the material manifestation, via the dreams via non-Krishna sub-conscious dreams generated from our perpetual body in Goloka. Such a secondary lower-self non- Krishna conscious awareness, then extends its energy to the mahat-tattva and is then given an ethereal body by Maha-Vishnu which is the body of a Brahma of which there are millions, some devotees, but most not devotees. We do not originally fall to the impersonal jiva-tatastha conscious condition first, as some believe, that happens much, much later and is not possible from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm. Even Jaya and Vijaya immediately took birth as demons within the mahat-tattva BEFORE Narayana eventually liberated them to the Brahma-sayujya; they never manifested a tatastha aspect of their consciousness first when they feel from Vaikuntha because they immediately took birth in the material creation (mahat-tattva).

The ethereal and biological costumes (bodies) one receives within the mahat-tattva always belong to the rental agent, Maha-Vishnu and His wife Maya Devi. Such costumes follow His script or design that simultaneously meets the desires and requirements of each of the jiva-bhutah consciousnesses visiting (being transmitted) from their original jiva-atma-vigraha bodily source and remarkable place of servitude in the perpetual Spiritual Sky, which is outside the mahat-tattva or confines of the restricted material universe. Maha-Vishnu organizes everything in the mahat-tattva; no one can exist there without being provided an ethereal and biological vessel by Him. For every material universal creation, of which there are billions, He has unlimited plenary representatives or expansions and millions of demigods to instigate His blue print plan of each material manifestation (thirty-three million representatives, like minsters in a Government, in our one insignificant material universe alone) that provides the ethereal, biological and material needs for those who project their secondary consciousness (lower self) to Lord Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation (the cloud in one corner of the beautiful Spiritual Sky where only non-Krishna conscious dreams can subsist), He already knows past present and future, He knows the beginning, middle and end journey of each ethereal and biological vessel and already hat such vessels ‘always in blue print’ for those who wish to experience something other than Krishna.

Unknown to them, Krishna provides everything, even the ethereal and biological vessels so that ones secondary transmitted consciousness, made up of thoughts, dreams and desires, are given bodily form beginning with Brahma, or even the facilities to keep continuing to material existence if one refuses to use the vessel or body of Brahma to Go back home from the decaying mahat-tattva and back to God, back to their full bodily conscious potential of blissful service to their Lord and Master Lord Sri Krishna. If not they will go on changing vessels or bodies so they can experience their self centered thoughts, desires, and nonsense DREAMS. All those who enter His creation also come under the spell of His wife Maha-Maya who helps Her Husband with the phenomenon of introducing time and then dividing time into past, present and future which has the effect of instigating another phenomena that makes all things within the mahat-tattva temporary and inflicted with decay. Such a phenomenon of past, future, impermanence, birth, disease old age or death does not exist in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm of the Spiritual Sky that has one dimension of time that is eternally in the present and controlled by the beautiful Lila’s of Krishna.

The energy of Lord Krishna is divided into three: para, kshetrajna and avidya. The para energy is actually the energy of the Supreme Lord Himself; the kshetrajna energy is the individual living entities or the marginal potency of Krishna that are all originally eternal bodily persons like Krishna yet always in the constitutional position of eternal servants and the enjoyed, while Krishna is the enjoyer; and the avidya energy is the material world (mahat-tattva), under the influential control of Maya-Devi, the wife of the creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Never was there a time when all the individual transcendental bodies (marginal potencies, soul’s or atma-jiva-vigraha devotee’s) did not exist, nor in the future will such original bodies cease to be. This is confirmed as follows –

‘Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be’ - Bhagavad-Gita as it is chapter 12 text 2.

The fall from Gods Kingdom is described in this book as a secondary manifestation of dreaming consciousness only manifesting within the sub-conscious mind of ones perpetual Spiritual devotional bodily self, that further only exists and transferred to the mahat-tattva when one is bereft of God consciousness. Such non-Krishna conscious dreams only come into a temporary existence when they enter the mahat-tattva and are given form by Maha-Vishnu. (There is always choice)

We all have an original God conscious body however, we can only be aware of such a body when we are selflessly engaged in loving devotion to God who is known as Krishna in his Supreme Person and lives eternally with His loving devotees (marginal personalities) and unlimited expansions, all playing different roles, in the uninterrupted ambience of His beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana planet. This Divine all-attractive planet exists in the transcendental universe or spiritual sky beyond time and space, past and future. It is a blissful gorgeous imperishable universe that is eternally set in the present as the Brahma-Samhita teaches us

The constitutional nature of the jiva or soul in its full potential of adoring non-envious expression of full consciousness embodied as an eternal bodily form is engaged in loving noble unconditional service to God and His pure devotees, this wonderful blissful place is the soul’s original constitution.

The full constitution of the jiva-soul is further made complete with free will, individuality and identity as a perpetual bodily form. All jiva-souls, or Krishna’s marginal potency, have originally manifested as that perpetual beautiful attractive youthful bodily form serving the wonderful object of their loving service, Krishna, the Lord and Master of all and protector of His devotee’s and provider to His devotee’s who even choose to forget Him and their rasa body they serve Him as and live their non-Krishna conscious dreams out in the mahat-tattva.

On the other hand, how are we to understand the word original when there was no beginning to the Spiritual Sky of Goloka-Vrndavana and the subordinate unending perpetual attractive Vaikuntha planets surrounding that wonderful central creation of Krishna?

April 18, 2007

I'd like to here what Srila Prabhupada revealed to Hari Sauri Prabhu on this subject and his understanding of Srila Prabhupada's teachings. What I'm reading here is a whole new angle on the subject that is very interesting and easy to understand. Can someone please post something Hari Sauri has written please.

April 20, 2007

I'm not Hari Sauri but the following is a preety clear understanding

Understanding the true origins of all living entities

This secondary extended conscious phenomena, emanating from ones own authentic perpetual bodily form in Goloka is further facilitated by the secondary extended mahat-tattva creation emanating from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) This has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities.

The teachings of Jiva Gosvami have been greatly misunderstood. In many cases his teachings have been incorrectly translated into English regarding this topic. From the view point of the mahat-tattva, we did originate from the tatastha conscious condition as a spark of consciousness however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation. Ones secondary conscious projection (jiva-bhutah) can only manifest as a spiritual spark AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such consciousness is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha. The secondary creation is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha devotee’s in Goloka-Vrndava/Vaikuntha. Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past.

The jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form, OR the so-called marginal sparks that are ALL constitutionally perpetual personal bodily forms (marginal vigraha devotee’s) ARE the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body. Krishna is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s initiate.

Vigraha · April 20, 2007

This means our spiritual body (vigraha) is already there in Vaikuntha and has always been there. The Srimad-Bhagavatam states Goloka is an eternal place where there is no birth, disease, old age and death and nothing perishes there, so this is a reasonable shastric conclusion – our genuine bodily form is always there.

Isn't that the meaning of perpetual? No- one can actually leaves such a place or enter there because they are already there? The only way to leave such a wonderful place is through ones non-Krishna conscious dreams

It is therefore clear that our authentic body never leaves Krishna’s beautiful Kingdom because everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha exists in the eternal unchanging Lila’s of Krishna that is always expanding and perpetually-changing without past or future as the Brahma-Samhita teaches us? How are we to understand such a paradox? How are we to understand that the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end and that we have always had a devotional Krishna Conscious vigraha bodily form that has no beginning or starting point as the Bhagavad-gita as it is teaches us?

From the view point of the mahat-tattva, we CAN originate from the tatastha conscious condition as a spark of consciousness however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state originally from Vaikuntha.

Could it be, due to our long association in the perishable universe (mahat-tattva) for such a long, long, long, long period of time, we mistaking believe we originate from the third temporary portion of creation, known as the tatastha-s’akti aspect of our jiva-tattva consciousness after one has deactivated all their conscious desires (non dreaming state), denying both their authentic vigraha devotional Krishna Conscious self in the HIGHER IMPERISHABLE Vaikuntha (due to the choice all marginal vigraha devotee’s have) as well as ones counterfeit material bodies in the LOWER PERISHABLE mahat-tattva, where one eventually forgets those material bodies.

The teachings of Jiva Gosvami teaches us we did originate from our individual tatastha s'akti conscious condition of extended consciousness that appears as a living spark of consciousness (jiva-s’akti) in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti however, that is from the perspective of re-merging as a conditioned soul and returning back to the material bodies in mahat-tattva. Only in this way does ones secondary consciousness originate from our jiva-tattva-tatastha conscious dormant condition, because it was previously in the mahat-tattva in another material creation however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state from a previous mahat-tattva creation and before that, maybe a long time before that, we were with Krishna

In this way ones extended consciousness not only becomes trapped and disillusioned in ethereal and biological bodies in the impermanent lower universe (mahat-tattva), but they become unaware that the manifestation of their secondary consciousness actually originated from the higher universal creation (beautiful Goloka)?

SRILA PRABHUPADA - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

SRILA PRABHUPADA -“We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. FORMALEY WE WERE WITH KRISHNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes back to Krishna consciousness”.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!!

April 20, 2007

Illuminations on Jîva-tattva by Sripad B.B. Visnu Maharaja ACBSP

Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down:

It is accepted by the majority of the members of the Vaisnava community that once having attained the spiritual world one cannot fall down. Numerous sastric texts (and commentaries) support this, such as: Bhagavad-gita 4.9, 8.15, 8.16, 13.24, 15.4, 15.6, 8.22, purport [of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada], and Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.2.31, 10.6.40, 3.16.12, purp., 3.25.29, purp., 7.1.34, purp. for example. We substantiate, by pertinent quotes, in the following section that nitya-siddha devotees, eternal residents who are already in the spiritual world, also never fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka.

Sastric texts:

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

The living entities [jivas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned. Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text)

In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees) (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.)

. . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)

Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura:

Therefore there is no birth or death for the Vaisnavas [the eternal associates]. They descend to the material world with the Lord and return to His abode with Him. The Vaisnava is never bound by karma and thus does not take birth in the material world. (Caitanya-Bhagavata Antya-lila 10.172)

Srila Rupa Gosvami:

Even the associates of the Lord are described as having eternal forms. (Laghu-bhag. 1.143)

The samprapta-siddhas are those who have become perfect by performing bhakti and nitya-siddhas are those who have never been conditioned and thus are eternally siddhas. (Brs. 2.1.281, text)

The nitya-siddha devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)

Srila Jiva Gosvami:

The third of ten characteristics of Vaikuntha listed by Srila Jiva Gosvami in Bhagavat-sandarbha, text 61, is that anyone who has attained Vaikuntha does not fall. Srila Jiva Gosvami also provides numerous examples and quotes as proof of this fact.

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana:

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, "One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord." He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6).

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura:

Mahavisnu, the incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the jiva-sakti as Paramatma, reveals the jiva-souls of the mundane world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's grace they get shelter under the Hladini (bliss-giving) element of the cit-sakti, they are liable to be overcome by maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 216)

. . . Gradually they reach the transcendental abode of the Lord and attain the exact same status as His eternal associates. (Jaiva Dharma, p. 229)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

Jivas are of two kinds. 1) Nitya-mukta (eternally free) 2) Nitya-baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are ever serving the Supreme God. (Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, Lecture, Bhaktisiddanta S T )

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

The living entities are parts and parcels of the Lord. They are of two varieties, namely nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The nitya-muktas are eternally liberated souls, and they are eternally engaged in the reciprocation of transcendental loving service with the Lord in His eternal abode beyond the manifested mundane creations. (Bhag.1.10.22, purp.)

. . . the planets in the spiritual sky . . . are in fact transcendental to the material modes . . . The conception of spiritual bliss (Brahmananda) is fully present in those planets . . . and free from all kinds of inebriates experienced in the material world . . . The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord . . . The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. In the words, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. This very fact is also corroborated in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the transcendental nature is described as amrta. As described in the Vedas, utamrtatvasyesanah: the Supreme Lord is the Lord of immortality, or in other words, the Lord is immortal, and because He is the Lord of immortality He can award immortality to His devotees. In the Bhagavad-gita (8.16) the Lord also assures that whoever may go to His abode of immortality shall never return to this mortal land of threefold miseries . . . In the material world there is always anxiety or fearfulness in the hearts of all living entities, but the Lord, being Himself the supreme fearless, also awards the same quality of fearlessness to His pure devotees. Mundane existence is itself a kind of fear because in all mundane bodies the effects of birth, death, old age and disease always keep a living being compact in fear. In the mundane world, there is always the influence of time, which changes things from one stage to another, and the living entity originally being avikara, or unchangeable, suffers a great deal on account of changes due to the influence of time.

The changing effects of eternal time are conspicuously absent in the immortal kingdom of God, which should therefore be understood to have no influence of time and therefore no fear whatsoever. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. The material creation is meant for rebellious souls who are not prepared to accept subordination under the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.)

. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha never return to the material world. (Bhag. 3.16.27, purp.)

A devotee once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident. [Jaya and Vijaya] (Bhag. 3.16.29, purp.)

The word kuta-stha, meaning "without change," is also very significant. There are two kinds of living entities-nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. A nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta. Such a nitya-mukta living entity represents the Supersoul as His expansion. As stated in the Vedas, nityo nityanam. Thus the nitya-mukta living entity knows that he is an expansion of the supreme nitya, or the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)

Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.61, purp.)

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.)

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. Therefore it is to understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

One who is not materially infected and who does not forget Krsna as his master is called nitya-mukta. In other words, one who is eternally liberated from material contamination is called nitya-mukta. From time immemorial the nitya-mukta living entity has always been a devotee of Krsna, and his only attempt has been to serve Krsna. Thus he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada confirms his agreement with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

An explanation of verses 8 through 15 is given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya . . . The living entities are divided into two categories.the eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy . . . The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy. Sometimes an ever-liberated personal associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends into this universe just as the Lord descends. Although working for the liberation of conditioned souls, the messenger of the Supreme Lord remains untouched by the material energy. Generally ever-liberated personalities live in the spiritual world as associates of Lord Krsna, and they are known as krsna-parsada, associates of the Lord. Their only business is enjoying Lord Krsna's company, and even though such eternally liberated persons come within this material world to serve the Lord's purpose, they enjoy Lord Krsna's company without stoppage . . . The ever-conditioned soul, provoked by lusty desires to enjoy the material world, is subjected to transmigrate from one body to another . . . If by chance he meets a saintly person who works on Krsna's behalf to deliver conditioned souls, and if he agrees to abide by his order, he can gradually approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. (Cc Madhya-lila 22.14-15, purp.)

The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport)

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature . . . they are counted among the associates of Krsna. (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, p. 108)

. . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness . . . you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me . . . they are almost as powerful as I am . . . they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

First opportunity to associate with Krsna:

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, 6th paragraph)

There are two kinds of souls: conditioned and liberated, nitya-baddha, nitya-mukta. Just like we are, similarly, there are living entities in the spiritual sky also, but they are liberated. They never become conditioned. We are conditioned. We do not know from when, but we are conditioned. So jiva yara vasi. In this material world, we conditioned, we are residents. But in the spiritual world the residents are all liberated souls. Jagal-laksmi rakhi' rahe yahan maya dasi. (670105CC.NY)

They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world.(Bhag. Lecture, June 20, 1973, Mayapura)

The following quotes clearly distinguish that the nitya-baddhas can be liberated and that the nitya-siddhas are never enslaved in the material world even when they come here.

The nitya-muktas are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.)

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has given a great amount of evidence from the Vedic literatures proving that the humanlike form of the Personality of Godhead and His holy name, abode, paraphernalia and associates are all eternal, spiritual manifestations without any tinge of material contamination. (Bhag. 11.30.5, purport by disciples of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)

There are two kinds of living entities. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world; they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddhas.

Anyone who is in this material world, nitya-baddha. And nitya-siddhas, they never come in contact with this material world, and even they come for some business under the order of the Supreme Lord, they do not touch these material qualities. They remain always transcendental. As Krsna remains always transcendental, even though He is in this material world, similarly, Krsna's nitya-siddha associates, they are also transcendental. They never touch this material world. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

Those who are in the spiritual world, they are nitya-siddha. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world. Just like Krsna is nitya-muktya suddha. Similarly the associates of Krsna who come with Him . . . Just like the gopis or the cowherd boys . . . they are all nitya-siddha, nitya-muktya . . . They are in the spiritual form, ananda-cinmaya-rasa, enjoying always spiritual bliss in the association of Krsna. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

. . . you should know that the great liberated souls and incarnations who appear from time to time in this material world are not actually coming back, because they are never subject to material contamination or the laws of material nature. (Ltr Srila Prabhupada~Vrndavanesvari, 6 June 1969)

We also mention here that, in regards to the theory that the nitya-muktas fall from the spiritual world and the baddha-mukta (bound who become liberated) do not fall, there is no evidence in sastra supporting or even mentioning this theory, nor do sanskrit terms exist for the mukta-baddha (liberated who become bound). Absolutely no distinction is made in the writings of our acaryas or in sastra between different classes of living entities in the spiritual world in reference to being eligible to fall or not; indeed no direct sastric or acarya reference states that any of them fall down. Neither is there any explicit mention in scripture of fallen nitya-muktas. The theory that the associates of the Lord in the spiritual world fall down implies that nitya-muktas (eternally liberated residents of Vaikuntha) are inferior to baddha-muktas (those bound in the material world who become liberated). This theory insinuates that nitya-muktas must come to the material world to become really fall-proof--to get a better education--i.e., one cannot be a gentleman unless he first visits a brothel. It also implies that bhaya-bhakti, devotion produced by fear or suffering, is superior to prema-bhakti, for only bhaya-bhakti gives complete protection to a devotee, that he will never fall down.

April 22, 2007

SRILA PRABHUPADA - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, impersonal liberated condition or Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

SRILA PRABHUPADA -“We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. FORMALEY WE WERE WITH KRISHNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes back to Krishna consciousness”.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!!

Sarva gattah · April 22, 2007

Srila Prabhupada: -

The verb pratipad means, "to be perceived or restored." The soul that is vinidra, free from the dreamlike condition of material consciousness, is restored to its constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord, Sri Krishna, and thus the soul is directly perceived by pure consciousness.