Cit-sakti (s’akti), Tatastha-sakti (s'akti) And the mahat-tattva

[Guest guest]

 

"tatastha origins is nonsence."

 

"This topic has been greatly misunderstood for many hundreds of years in the Vaishnava tradition. Originally our dreaming consciousness WAS transmitted to the mahat-tattva (not our perpetual vigraha body), as our jiva-tattva (as the jiva-bhutah conditional consciousness) and given material (ethereal then biological) vessels by Maha-Vishnu, then over billions of life times, one's conscious awareness of their origins in Vaikuntha becomes completely forgotten, so much so, that that we begin to foolishly believe the nonsense that our origins are from an Impersonal nature such as the tatastha condition of the jiva-tattva. WE DID NOT ORIGINATE FROM TATASTHA.

 

 

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Īśopaniṣad 16

 

pūṣann ekarṣe yama sūrya prājāpatya

vyūha raśmīn samūha

tejo yat te rūpaḿ kalyāṇa-tamaḿ

tat te paśyāmi yo 'sāv asau puruṣaḥ so 'ham asmi

 

SYNONYMS

 

pūṣan — O maintainer; eka-ṛṣe — the primeval philosopher; yama — the regulating principle; sūrya — the destination of the sūris (great devotees); prājāpatya — the well-wisher of the prajāpatis (progenitors of mankind); vyūha — kindly remove; raśmīn — the rays; samūha — kindly withdraw; tejaḥ — effulgence; yat — so that; te — Your; rūpam — form; kalyāṇa-tamam — most auspicious; tat — that; te — Your; paśyāmi — I may see; yaḥ — one who is; asau — like the sun; asau — that; puruṣaḥ — Personality of Godhead; saḥ — myself; aham — I; asmi — am.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O my Lord, O primeval philosopher, maintainer of the universe, O regulating principle, destination of the pure devotees, well-wisher of the progenitors of mankind, please remove the effulgence of Your transcendental rays so that I can see Your form of bliss. You are the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, like unto the sun, as am I.

 

PURPORT

 

The sun and its rays are one and the same qualitatively. Similarly, the Lord and the living entities are one and the same in quality. The sun is one, but the molecules of the sun's rays are innumerable. The sun's rays constitute part of the sun, and the sun and its rays conjointly constitute the complete sun. Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating, the Lord enjoys His eternal pastimes, as verified in the Brahma-saḿhitā (5.29):

 

cintāmaṇi-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vṛkṣa-

lakṣāvṛteṣu surabhīr abhipālayantam

lakṣmī-sahasra-śata-sambhrama-sevyamānaḿ

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

 

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor, who is tending the cows fulfilling all desires in abodes filled with spiritual gems and surrounded by millions of wish-fulfilling trees. He is always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of Lakṣmīs, or goddesses of fortune."

 

The brahmajyoti is described in the Brahma-saḿhitā as the rays emanating from that supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana, just as the sun's rays emanate from the sun globe. Until one surpasses the glare of the brahmajyoti, one cannot receive information of the land of the Lord. The impersonalist philosophers, blinded as they are by the dazzling brahmajyoti, can realize neither the factual abode of the Lord nor His transcendental form. Limited by their poor fund of knowledge, such impersonalist thinkers cannot understand the all-blissful transcendental form of Lord Kṛṣṇa. In this prayer, therefore, Śrī Īśopaniṣad petitions the Lord to remove the effulgent rays of the brahmajyoti so that the pure devotee can see His all-blissful transcendental form.

 

By realizing the impersonal brahmajyoti, one experiences the auspicious aspect of the Supreme, and by realizing the Paramātmā, or all-pervading feature of the Supreme, one experiences an even more auspicious enlightenment. But by meeting the Personality of Godhead Himself face to face, the devotee experiences the most auspicious feature of the Supreme. Since He is addressed as the primeval philosopher and maintainer and well-wisher of the universe, the Supreme Truth cannot be impersonal. This is the verdict of Śrī Īśopaniṣad. The word pūṣan ("maintainer") is especially significant, for although the Lord maintains all beings, He specifically maintains His devotees. After surpassing the impersonal brahmajyoti and seeing the personal aspect of the Lord and His most auspicious eternal form, the devotee realizes the Absolute Truth in full.

 

In his Bhagavat-sandarbha, Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī states: "The complete conception of the Absolute Truth is realized in the Personality of Godhead because He is almighty and possesses full transcendental potencies. The full potency of the Absolute Truth is not realized in the brahmajyoti; therefore Brahman realization is only partial realization of the Personality of Godhead. O learned sages, the first syllable of the word bhagavān (bha) has two meanings: the first is 'one who fully maintains,' and the second is 'guardian.' The second syllable (ga) means 'guide,' 'leader' or 'creator.' The syllable vān indicates that every being lives in Him and that He also lives in every being. In other words, the transcendental sound bhagavān represents infinite knowledge, potency, energy, opulence, strength and influence — all without a tinge of material inebriety."

 

The Lord fully maintains His unalloyed devotees, and He guides them progressively on the path toward devotional perfection. As the leader of His devotees, He ultimately awards the desired results of devotional service by giving Himself to them. The devotees of the Lord see the Lord eye to eye by His causeless mercy; thus the Lord helps His devotees reach the supermost spiritual planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana. Being the creator, He can bestow all necessary qualifications upon His devotees so that they can ultimately reach Him. The Lord is the cause of all causes. In other words, since there is nothing that caused Him, He is the original cause. Consequently He enjoys His own Self by manifesting His own internal potency. The external potency is not exactly manifested by Him, for He expands Himself as the puruṣas, and it is in these forms that He maintains the features of the material manifestation. By such expansions, He creates, maintains and annihilates the cosmic manifestation.

 

The living entities are also differentiated expansions of the Lord's Self, and because some of them desire to be lords and imitate the Supreme Lord, He allows them to enter into the cosmic creation with the option to fully utilize their propensity to lord it over nature. Because of the presence of His parts and parcels, the living entities, the entire phenomenal world is stirred into action and reaction. Thus the living entities are given full facilities to lord it over material nature, but the ultimate controller is the Lord Himself in His plenary feature as Paramātmā, the Supersoul, who is one of the puruṣas.

 

Thus there is a gulf of difference between the living entity (ātmā) and the controlling Lord (Paramātmā), the soul and the Supersoul. Paramātmā is the controller, and the ātmā is the controlled; therefore they are in different categories. Because the Paramātmā fully cooperates with the ātmā, He is known as the constant companion of the living being.

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord — which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jīva-śakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls — is known as Brahman. Since the Lord is the origin of both Paramātmā and Brahman, He is the origin of all living entities and all else that exists. One who knows this engages himself at once in the devotional service of the Lord. Such a pure and fully cognizant devotee of the Lord is fully attached to Him in heart and soul, and whenever such a devotee assembles with similar devotees, they have no engagement but the glorification of the Lord's transcendental activities. Those who are not as perfect as the pure devotees — namely, those who have realized only the Brahman or Paramātmā features of the Lord — cannot appreciate the activities of the perfect devotees. The Lord always helps the pure devotees by imparting necessary knowledge within their hearts, and thus out of His special favor He dissipates all the darkness of ignorance. The speculative philosophers and yogīs cannot imagine this, because they more or less depend on their own strength. As stated in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad (1.2.23), the Lord can be known only by those whom He favors, and not by anyone else. Such special favors are bestowed upon His pure devotees only. Śrī Īśopaniṣad thus points to the favor of the Lord, which is beyond the purview of the brahmajyoti.

[gHari]

http://vedabase.net/sb/1/6/22/en

[Guest guest]

“So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

By Drutakarma Dasa

 

Srila Prabhupada has already answered the questions about the origin of the jiva. These answers can be found in all three of the above-mentioned strong categories of evidence. The answer found therein is that the conditioned souls in this material world were originally in a direct and developed relationship of devotional service to Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world. By misuse of independence, manifesting as a desire to imitate Krsna or take His position as supreme enjoyer, the soul gave up its natural state and was placed in the material world. By proper use of free will one can take up the process of Krsna consciousness and regain one’s original position. Srila Prabhupada also directly rejects the ideas that we were originally situated in the brahmajyoti or that we always existed as conditioned souls in this material world. Srila Prabhupada has never said we were originally from the Viraja River. Nor does he say that our original condition was fundamentally different from our final condition on going back to Godhead.

 

The origin of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly a question beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore answer this question only by repeating the answer that Srila Prabhupada repeatedly gave when asked the same question. We were once in a direct and developed relationship of service to Krsna in a spiritual planet in the spiritual world. By misuse of independence we desired to imitate Krsna or take His position. Therefore we have been placed in the material world. But by becoming Krsna conscious we can regain our original position. No other view shall be presented as conclusive in any ISKCON media (print, video, electronic), classes, seminars, etc.

 

Srila Prabhupada directly rejected the idea that we are from the brahmajyoti (tatatha).

 

In resolving philosophical controversies, the teachings, instructions, and personal example of Srila Prabhupada are the first and primary resource. If a conclusion, recognized by the GBC, can be drawn from careful study of this resource, it shall guide further research into the Vedic literature, the writings of previous acaryas, and the teachings of current bona fide Vaisnava acaryas outside ISKCON. Everything that can be harmonized to the conclusion arrived at from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings shall be accepted. Any contradictions that cannot be resolved shall be placed in the category of “differences among the acaryas.” But ISKCON members shall follow the conclusion of Srila Prabhupada when there is such a difference.

 

In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance. Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents. In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva, Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society:

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

 

The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.” Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state and the final state of liberation. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself. He creates a dream identity. And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position. There are two states. The free state and the covered state. The free state is “with Krsna.” There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free state that is different from the final free state.

 

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

 

The idea that we were always conditioned is directly rejected. Srila Prabhupada says, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport.”

 

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Here Srila Prabhupada directly compares the history of the souls in this material world with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. He speaks of “keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord.”

 

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased; better to spend time curing the disease.

 

Here Srila Prabhupada directly rejects the idea that the conditioned soul was originally in the brahmajyoti.

 

Srila Prabhupada has made two points absolutely clear. First, the original position of the soul is with Krsna in His lila, or sport. Second, the souls are not originally from the brahmajyoti, but impersonalists in this material world, themselves fallen from their original position in Krsna’s pastimes, may enter and fall down from the brahmajyoti many times during the course of successive creations of the universe. Therefore, for any particular soul it may be said that we do not know if it is coming, during this particular creation, from Krsna’s eternal lila or from the brahmajyoti. Taken in this way, all the statements remain true in a consistent way. Of course, we know from other statements by Srila Prabhupada, quoted elsewhere in this paper, that the jiva is not from the brahmajyoti and was originally with Krsna in His spiritual abode. At the very end, Srila Prabhupada puts things in clear perspective when he says that we are always part and parcel of Krsna, just as a finger is always part of the body although it may be diseased. So in the same way we are always in touch with Krsna, either in his eternal lila or his lila of manifesting this material creation.

 

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly; therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered.

 

What about this statement: “When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila”? I have heard some say that when Srila Prabhupada earlier said that we were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport, this might just mean that we were in contact with one of Krsna’s energies—maya or the brahmajyoti. In other words, it doesn’t mean we were with Krsna personally. But this interpretation is not supported by the text. Srila Prabhupada compares the history of the conditioned soul directly with the history of Jaya and Vijaya. This clearly indicates a direct personal relationship, and not some other kind of lila. Srila Prabhupada also has directly stated in this text that we were not originally in the brahmajyoti. And in the first part of the text he said: “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration.” So when Srila Prabhupada said we were in Krsna’s lila, he meant before we were covered by the material energy, maya. In this context, the only allowable reading of lila is Krsna’s pastimes as we commonly understand them from the Tenth Canto of the Bhagavatam. But when we come to the material world, we remain in Krsna’s lila in the sense of being in contact with Krsna’s energies.

So in this famous crow and tal fruit message, which was given by Srila Prabhupada in order to resolve the same controversy that faces us today, Srila Prabhupada makes the following points about the conditioned souls:

 

1. We were originally with Krsna in His lila, or sport.

2. We are not originally from the brahmajyoti.

3. By comparing the situation of the conditioned souls with that of Jaya and Vijaya, Srila Prabhupada indicates that the original relationship was one of active service in a spiritual planet.

4. There is no mention of an origin in the Viraja River.

5. We are not eternally conditioned, in the sense of being always in the material word and never having been with Krsna in the spiritual world.

 

On the basis of this statement alone, we can confidently answer the questions raised at the beginning of this paper. Yes, we were originally with Krsna. No, we are not from the brahmajyoti. No, we are not eternally conditioned. No, we are not originally from the Viraja River. No, our relationship with Krsna was not undeveloped. The reason that we can answer the questions so confidently in this way is that the crow and tal fruit message was given by Srila Prabhupada in direct answer to the same controversy that faces us today. In this message, Srila Prabhupada also offers adjustments to other statements that appear contradictory. To the impersonalists it appears that they are from the brahmajyoti because in any particular creation they may indeed be coming down from there. But before that they were with Krsna. It is sometimes said we are eternally conditioned, but that is only because we cannot trace out the exact moment when we departed from Krsna’s lila. By comparing the state of the conditioned soul to a dreaming man, Srila Prabhupada implicitly gives an adjustment of the “no one falls from Vaikuntha” statements. The dreaming man simply thinks he has gone somewhere else. The conditioned soul may think he has left Krsna’s lila, but actually he is still in touch with Krsna. In the same way, we are never out of Vaikuntha, but we are just dreaming that we are somewhere else. In other statements, Srila Prabhupada expresses this more explicitly. As we shall see, this view is also in harmony with the statements of the previous acaryas as well as the Srimad-Bhagavatam, which Jiva Goswami calls the topmost Vedic authority.

 

The conclusions outlined above find additional support in Srila Prabhupada’s direct answers to questions about the origin of the jiva. These questions were put to Srila Prabhupada by disciples and followers in classes and letters. Sometimes Srila Prabhupada rhetorically raised them in his own classes. Specific answers given to specific questions, especially those that refer to the classic apparent contradictions in the jiva question, assume great importance for us as we attempt to arrive at an answer to the present controversy. The safest thing to do is to answer the questions the way Srila Prabhupada answered them.

 

“Actually he has not fallen”

The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan, is one of the most important statements given by Srila Prabhupada on the origin of the jiva.

 

“no one falls from Vaikuntha.” To put it briefly, Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with Krsna and are now in a situation where we think we have fallen. In this way, we can accept the literal meaning of Srila Prabhupada’s very numerous statements that we do fall from the spiritual world and we can adjust the relatively few “no fall” statements in terms of a solution that Srila Prabhupada himself directly offers. We have not actually fallen, but we think we are fallen. Taking the opposite approach, we can, as some advocates suggest, take the “no fall” statements as literally true and adjust the “fall” statements in a way not directly offered by Srila Prabhupada (i.e., they are a “preaching strategy”). In other words, we were never in the spiritual world with Krsna, but Srila Prabhupada sometimes said we were as a preaching strategy. The following lecture excerpts demonstrate that it would not be wise for us to follow this latter approach when Srila Prabhupada has taken another approach to the same problem—we were in Vaikuntha and we just think we are fallen.

 

Karandhara: Translation: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”

Prabhupada: So, purport?

Karandhara: “Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind.”

Prabhupada: It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that “How the living entity was with Krsna, he became fallen in this material world?” Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that “How the living entity who was with Krsna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?” So this is the answer. Read the translation.

 

So here Srila Prabhupada is himself directly raising one of the specific questions that confront us today. It is clear that he accepts the premise of the question, namely that we actually were with Krsna in the spiritual world. The question is not whether or not we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada is accepting that. The question is why we left Krsna.

 

Karandhara: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...”

Prabhupada: It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

Devotees: Yes.

Prabhupada: Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason....Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of Krsna. This illusory energy develops when we forget Krsna. That’s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up Krsna and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore Krsna is giving us.

 

So here Srila Prabhupada offers a way we can understand the few statements that he makes that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation. In our original situation we were with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada says “we wanted to give up Krsna.” There is no mention of originally being in the brahmajyoti, or the Viraja River, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed relationship with Krsna. Srila Prabhupada repeats these points throughout the lecture, as can be seen from the following excerpts.

 

Prabhupada: Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity. People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all. So the answer is, when somebody asks you that “When one has become in contact with this material nature?” He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, so Krsna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’”

 

So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with— I am simply Krsna’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. “Oh, Krsna is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly.. . .

 

But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, “It was illusion, I was dreaming, I am Krsna’s” — finished. All gone. “I am Krsna’s. I am Krsna’s eternal servant. These are all nonsense”—he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. There is no... Is there any difficulty to understand? Just see how important this verse. It is already there, but you are not reading. Each verse, read every day carefully. Try to assimilate, understand, and you will get more profit, every day, hundred yards forward, hundred yards forward, yes. They are so important verses. How nicely composed by Vyasadeva. In two lines the whole thing is explained. This is called sastra. In two lines. Then read the purport.

 

Notice that Srila Prabhupada is calling this a very important verse, and he is repeating again and again his explanation and also calling it very important for the devotees to understand. He is raising the questions that confront us and answering them point by point. He is also offering a way to understand the statements that “no one falls.” Statements like these by Srila Prabhupada are addressed directly to the specific questions that confront us. They address these questions in a sustained way. Such direct, detailed, and comprehensive statements are worthy of more emphasis than isolated brief statements pulled from here and there, with no direct sign from Srila Prabhupada that they relate to the exact questions before us.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada directly rejected the idea that we are from the brahmajyoti (tatatha).

 

 

 

Doh....

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord — which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jīva-śakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls — is known as Brahman. Since the Lord is the origin of both Paramātmā and Brahman, He is the origin of all living entities and all else that exists. One who knows this engages himself at once in the devotional service of the Lord. Such a pure and fully cognizant devotee of the Lord is fully attached to Him in heart and soul, and whenever such a devotee assembles with similar devotees, they have no engagement but the glorification of the Lord's transcendental activities. Those who are not as perfect as the pure devotees — namely, those who have realized only the Brahman or Paramātmā features of the Lord — cannot appreciate the activities of the perfect devotees. The Lord always helps the pure devotees by imparting necessary knowledge within their hearts, and thus out of His special favor He dissipates all the darkness of ignorance. The speculative philosophers and yogīs cannot imagine this, because they more or less depend on their own strength. As stated in the Kaṭha Upaniṣad (1.2.23), the Lord can be known only by those whom He favors, and not by anyone else. Such special favors are bestowed upon His pure devotees only. Śrī Īśopaniṣad thus points to the favor of the Lord, which is beyond the purview of the brahmajyoti.

 

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

 

We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as, because of the attachment to pursue our non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the center instead of Krishna. This is why our dreaming condition is transferred to the mahat-tattva.

Every atma (perpetual body) is a marginal vigraha Krishna Conscious devotee that collectively appears in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky and appears to exist collectively as a bright personal effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna’s beautiful body [Krishna's Supreme Vigraha body] that radiates the entire creation with (Brahmajyoti). The Impersonalist cannot understand this and how it is possible for the secondary conscious condition of their atma-vigraha body, to find its way to an Impersonal aspect of that Brahmajyoti.

The secondary (mahat-tattva or material creation) and third (Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastra Brahma-sayujya) realms of creation of Lord Krishna also originate from the Personal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, both the second and third aspect of ‘conscious projection’ are the manifestation of the secondary conscious state of the atma-vigraha devotees, first as the their active stage in the mahat-tattva confined to ethereal and biological counterfeit bodily vessels, and then as the inactive state of tatastha consciousness in the so called Impersonal Brahmajyoti, free from ethereal and biological containers provided within the mahat-tattva.

In the secondary creation 'of the dreaming' called the mahat-tattva, Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees are in a dreaming condition, not as their original bodies in Goloka, but in a dream state, Krishna expands as the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and the marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s expand or extend their consciousness, when NOT Krishna conscious, to those dreams Maha-Vishnu is having, where HE provides the ethereal and biological vessels that give the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee’s dreaming condition, their counterfeit forms. The difference is Krishna, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes, is always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu and is not affected in any way by His dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s are very much effected and ‘consciously’ forgetful of their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body, when they choose to imagine, think, dream or desire an existence without Krishna.

This secondary consciousness that manifests from ones atma-vigraha body, as well as the secondary (mahat-tattva) and third (impersonal Brahmajyoti) creation of Lord Krishna, all originate from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky as the expansion of Krishna and the secondary individual life force (jiva-sakti) of the atma-vigraha marginal devotee’s

The expansion of Krishna (technically via His plenary expansion Balarama known as the sleeping Maha-Vishnu) and the extended consciousness of the atma-vigraha devotee’s, are in a dreaming phenomena that manifests as a dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky called the ‘cloud of the dreaming’ or mahat-tattva.

The secondary consciousness is therefore generated from the perpetual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s in Goloka and only comes into existence when ones focus is not on <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This secondary conscious obviously originates also within the Goloka realm, but cannot exist or remain in that realm because the Spiritual Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha’s are 100% <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious. Just like darkness cannot exist where there is light, non-krishna conscious dreams, thoughts and desire cannot remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky. Those dreams are therefore transferred to the perishable mahat-tattva.

In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation because of those non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams. Such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness, among other ‘jiva names’ according to the condition ones transmitted consciousness is in outside of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

[Guest guest]

Brhad Bhagatamrtam

 

Commentary of Sanatan Goswami to verse 2.2.186

 

 

ataH sa nitya siddho bhedas tiSThed eva. evam satyeva mukta api lilayA vigrahaM kRtvA

bhagavantaM bhajanti iti zrI zankarAcArya bhagavat padAnAM vacanaM

 

 

"The difference between Bhagavan and Jiva is eternal. Thus Sri Shankaracarya has also said: 'The anadi-siddha (eternally liberated) souls merged in Brahma (Brahman) naturally develop spiritual bodies to engage in worship the Lord.'