Fools Rush In...

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Quote from Anadi Prabhu from a thread that has been closed (since it had gone off-topic, I assume).

 

 

You also wrote:

 

Simply to go on with the same procedure: artificially jump to the tenth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam and after 3 years again fall back into maya.

Reply:

 

What about preaching for 30 years

we are not this body and

we should implement varnashrama dharma?

and not dare to read about the Radha-Krisna lila, because guru says is too high, and still singing jaya Radhe jaya Krishna, without understanding what one is trying to glorify.

I don’t think this is very useful for bhakti.

Bhakti is very individual, and bhaktas have different speeds of bhajan.

What about chanting the Mahamantra ("Hare Krishna") for 30 years without understanding the full significance of it (and, of course, devising mundane interpretations of it is one of the 10 Offenses to the Holy Name)? Is that also "not very useful for Bhakti"?

Do you propose that, in order to derive benefit from the medicine prescribed by the doctor that we must have full knowledge of all the biological processes involved the application of the medicine?

Surely not!!! We derive benefit from chanting "Jaya Radhe Jaya Krisna" or Mahamantra regardless of our mood or understanding (though, of course, the degree of benefit received is closely tied to the mood in which chanting occurs).

Better to have *no* understanding than a *false* or poisonous understanding, no?

While you may make so many scriptural quotes, Anadi-ji, in support of reading the intimate pastimes of Sri Sri Radha Krishna, on this topic, Param-Gurudev, Srila Sridhar Maharaj has quoted the Bible: Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

So, I certainly cannot tell you whether you were qualified to hear these pastimes from Sripad Bhaktivendanta Narayan Maharaj, or if he is qualified to recite these pastimes to you, but the fact (as related by you) that he no longer is blessing the eager in such a manner ought to be revelatory to you if Sripad Narayan Maharaj is Guru to you.

There are some very relavant quotes from Param-Gurudeva's Sri Sri Prapanna-Jivanamritam which shed light on the other quotes you furnished in the previous thread. I cannot find a text version of the book online (only PDF with images), so I hope to transcribe those later for our benefit.

For now, I leave you with a relevant quote from the holy Monty Python's Meaning of Life:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085959/quotes

Humphrey: So, just listen. Now, did I or did I not... do... vaginal... juices?

Pupils: Mmm. Mmm. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Humphrey: Name two ways of getting them flowing, Watson.

Watson: R - rubbing the clitoris, sir?

Humphrey: What's wrong with a kiss, boy? Hmm? Why not start her off with a nice kiss? You don't have to go leaping straight for the clitoris like a bull at a gate. Give her a kiss, boy.

Wymer: Suck the nipple, sir?

Humphrey: Good. Good. Well done, Wymer.

Pupil: Uh, stroking the thighs, sir.

Humphrey: Yes. Yes, I suppose so. Hmm?

Pupil: Oh, sir. Biting the neck.

Humphrey: Yes. Good. Nibbling the earlobe, uhh, kneading the buttocks, and so on and so forth. So, we have all these possibilities before we stampede towards the clitoris, Watson.

Watson: Yes, sir. Sorry, sir.

[Guest guest]

Narration of the Rasa Lila Dance

Krishna Book ACBSP

…Sukadeva Gosvami concludes this episode of rasa-lila by pointing out that if a person hears from the right source of the pastimes of Krsna, who is Visnu Himself, and the gopis, who are expansions of His energy, then he will be relieved from the most dangerous type of disease, namely lust. If one actually hears rasa-lila, he will become completely freed from the lusty desire of sex life and elevated to the highest level of spiritual understanding. Generally, because they hear from Mayavadis and they themselves are Mayavadis, people become more and more implicated in sex life. The conditioned soul should hear the rasa-lila dance from an authorized spiritual master and be trained by him so that he can understand the whole situation; thus one can be elevated to the highest standard of spiritual life, otherwise one will be implicated. Material lust is a kind of heart disease, and to cure the material heart disease of the conditioned soul, it is recommended that one should hear, but not from the impersonalist rascals. If one hears from the right sources with right understanding, then his situation will be different.

Sukadeva Gosvami has used the word sraddhanvita for one who is trained in the spiritual life. Sraddha, or faith, is the beginning. One who has developed his faith in Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Spirit Soul, can both describe and hear. Sukadeva also uses the word anusrnuyat. One must hear from disciplic succession. Anu means following, and anu means always. So one must always follow the disciplic succession and not hear from any stray professional reciter, Mayavadi or ordinary man. Anusrnuyat means that one must hear from an authorized person who is in the disciplic succession and is always engaged in Krsna consciousness. When a person wants to hear in this way, then the effect will be sure. By hearing rasa-lila, one will be elevated to the highest position of spiritual life.

Sukadeva Gosvami uses two specific words, bhaktim and param. Bhaktim param means execution of devotional service above the neophyte stage. Those who are simply attracted to temple worship but do not know the philosophy of bhakti are in the neophyte stage. That sort of bhakti is not the perfectional stage. The perfectional stage of bhakti, or devotional service, is completely free from material contamination. The most dangerous aspect of contamination is lust or sex life. Bhaktim param devotional service is so potent that the more one advances in this line, the more he loses his attraction for material life. One who is actually deriving benefit from hearing rasa-lila dance surely achieves the transcendental position. He surely loses all traces of lust in his heart.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Here's the quote form Prapannam Jivanamritam I promised. For those familiar with my presence in this forum know that I am not inclined to quote scripture, but, as I was reading this to my children at bed time last night, I was struck by how appropriate this passage is to this line of enquiry.

 

From Sri Sri Prapanna Jivanamrita by Srila B.R. Sridhar Dev-Goswami (Forward, pg. xxii-xxiii): http://scsmath.net/math/docs/Prapanna-Jivanamritam.pdf

 

 

Sri Jiva Goswami has stated that of the six symptoms of surrender, to embrace the guardianship of the Lord (goptrtve varanam) is central, since total surrender expresses the same ideal. The remaining five symptoms of accepting the favourable, rejecting the unfavourable, faith in the Lord's protection, full self-surrender, and humility, are natural contributing associate-servitors to the ideal (angangi-bhedena sad-vidha; tatra 'goptrtve varanam' evangi, saranagati-sabdenaikarthyat; anyani tv angani tat parikaratvat--Bhakti-sandharbha, 236).

 

Surrender is the fountain of the world of devotion. It is the very life and essence. One cannot enter into that domain without surrender. It must be present in every form of service, and to attempt divine service without it will be mere imitation of a lifeless formality. The entire gist of the Vedic instruction is to dedicate oneself to the service of the Lord. In his commentary of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri Sridhara Swamipada has stated that only if the practices of devotion are initially offered to the Supreme Lord can they be recognized as devotion. To attempt to execute them and subsequently offer them cannot be pre devotion (iti nava laksanani yasyah sa, adhitena ced bhagavati vishnau bhaktih kriyate, sa carpitaiva sati yadi kriyeta, na tu drita sati pascad arpyeta.) Without surrender, the activity will be adulterated with exploitation, renunciation, artificial meditation (karmma, jnana, yoga), and so on.

By constitution, the soul is the Lord's servant, and the Lord has the right to make or marr, to do anything according to His sweet will. If accepting this truth we undertake the devotional practices such as hearing, chanting, remembering, and worshipping, only then will our activity be devotional. Only the activity of the self-dedicated soul can be devotion. Sincere prayer will help us to seek the help of the Lord, but, again, prayer in the spirit of surrender can alone reach Him (Saranagati, 1.5). The path of devotion entails increasing our negative status to invite the positive to descend and embrace us: 'I am very low, and You are so high. You can purify me, take me and utilize me for Your higher purpose. Be pleased. Otherwise I am helpless, neglected.' It is impossible to take Him captive in the cage of our knowledge. Only the way of devotion can help us. In every respect He is high, great, and infinite--and we aer similarly small. His mercy--His sympathy, love, and grace, are the only medium through which we can come together. And good faith is autonomous in that sweet land which is so high that we will earnestly hope and pray for the association of the higher existence as His slave; and that also will be our happy prospect fo the future.

 

Krsna is not within our purview, and thus we are always recommended by Scriptures and saints to approach the bona fide Divine Master and Vaisnavas. To satisfy the Supreme Lord, the criterion is to satisfy our Gurudeva; if Gurudeva is dissatisfied with us, the Lord is surely dissatisfied. An analogy has been cited in the Scriptures, where the Lord is compared to the sun, the Guru to a pond, and the disciple to a lotus flower. If the pond withdraws, the very sun will scorch and dry up the lotus--and the lotus will be cheered by the sun as long as the water supports and surrounds it.

 

So, whatever you do, don't get scorched by the sun. Stay at the feet of Gurudev!!!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Great quote!!!

 

Very few would have the courage to question that Srila Prabhupad was qualified to give everything. Param-Gurudev has recognized him as shaktyavesha (empowered) avatar of Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

 

Now, just how many times is it recorded that Srila Prabhupad spoke about Rasa Lila with his disciples in great detail? Did he feel we (disciples, grand-disciples, God-nephews and God-nieces) were ready to hear this?

 

What was Srila Prabhupada's reaction when he heard about the "Gopi Bhava Club"?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj, in the quote preceeding this post, makes clear what the mood of the Vaishnava is. The Vaishnava sees himself as unqualified.

 

 

Narration of the Rasa Lila Dance

Krishna Book ACBSP

…Sukadeva Gosvami concludes this episode of rasa-lila by pointing out that if a person hears from the right source of the pastimes of Krsna, who is Visnu Himself, and the gopis, who are expansions of His energy, then he will be relieved from the most dangerous type of disease, namely lust. If one actually hears rasa-lila, he will become completely freed from the lusty desire of sex life and elevated to the highest level of spiritual understanding. Generally, because they hear from Mayavadis and they themselves are Mayavadis, people become more and more implicated in sex life. The conditioned soul should hear the rasa-lila dance from an authorized spiritual master and be trained by him so that he can understand the whole situation; thus one can be elevated to the highest standard of spiritual life, otherwise one will be implicated. Material lust is a kind of heart disease, and to cure the material heart disease of the conditioned soul, it is recommended that one should hear, but not from the impersonalist rascals. If one hears from the right sources with right understanding, then his situation will be different.

Sukadeva Gosvami has used the word sraddhanvita for one who is trained in the spiritual life. Sraddha, or faith, is the beginning. One who has developed his faith in Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Spirit Soul, can both describe and hear. Sukadeva also uses the word anusrnuyat. One must hear from disciplic succession. Anu means following, and anu means always. So one must always follow the disciplic succession and not hear from any stray professional reciter, Mayavadi or ordinary man. Anusrnuyat means that one must hear from an authorized person who is in the disciplic succession and is always engaged in Krsna consciousness. When a person wants to hear in this way, then the effect will be sure. By hearing rasa-lila, one will be elevated to the highest position of spiritual life.

Sukadeva Gosvami uses two specific words, bhaktim and param. Bhaktim param means execution of devotional service above the neophyte stage. Those who are simply attracted to temple worship but do not know the philosophy of bhakti are in the neophyte stage. That sort of bhakti is not the perfectional stage. The perfectional stage of bhakti, or devotional service, is completely free from material contamination. The most dangerous aspect of contamination is lust or sex life. Bhaktim param devotional service is so potent that the more one advances in this line, the more he loses his attraction for material life. One who is actually deriving benefit from hearing rasa-lila dance surely achieves the transcendental position. He surely loses all traces of lust in his heart.

[Guest guest]

Some people say that Srila Prabhupada never spoke about the gopis, especially in public and especially not to new people. But this is not the case. The following is a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and a person who was not a devotee. He was Bob Cohen, a peace-core worker. Bob is asking, "Does the devotee keep his individual likes and dislikes?" Srila Prabhupada: "Yes, he keeps everything, but he gives preference to Krishna. Krishna says positively, 'I like these things'. We have to offer to Krishna what He likes, and then we will take the prasada. Krishna likes Radharani." So now Srila Prabhupada begins to speak about Radharani to a completely new person who doesn't know anything. "Krishna likes Radharani. Therefore all the gopis are trying to push Radharani to Krishna. 'Krishna likes this gopi. All right, let's push Her.' That is called Krishna consciousness." Bob said, "Is Krishna attractive to rascals?" Srila Prabhupada said, "Oh yes, He as the greatest rascal also." Then Bob asked, "How can you say that Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is a rascal?" Srila Prabhupada began to laugh. "Because He is always teasing the gopis. Yes. Sometimes, when Radharani would go out, Krishna would attack Her. And when She would fall down, She would say, 'O Krishna, don't torture Me in that way.' They would fall on the ground and Krishna would take an opportunity to kiss Her." Srila Prabhupada laughed again and said, "So Radharani was very pleased, but superficially Krishna was the greatest rascal. So unless rascaldom is in Krishna, then how could rascaldom be existent in this world?"

[muralidhar_das]

Murali Mohan Prabhu, the entire Prappana Jivanamrtam is here:

 

www.mandala.com.au/prapanna

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Some people may say that, but I did not. As Anadi Prabhu pointed out in the previous thread, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu places the attachment of the Gopis for Krishna in the highest position. About that there is no debate. All Gaudiya Vaishnavas loudly proclaim this.

 

In your quote, Srila Prabhupad is talking about *more* intimate things, but, really, he's is talking about the playful flirting of the Supreme and His Consort, and it is to illustrate a philosophical point. This is still not a recitation of Gita Govinda (in English; once my Gurudev recited Gita Govinda for some Western disciples saying: I only do this because you do not understand the words), or the Tenth Canto Rasa Lila depictions.

 

I'm not saying Srila Prabhupada never did reveal these things. I honestly would like someone to bring forth evidence of such an occurence if it exists. I simply have never heard of such a thing happening.

 

 

Some people say that Srila Prabhupada never spoke about the gopis, especially in public and especially not to new people. But this is not the case. The following is a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and a person who was not a devotee. He was Bob Cohen, a peace-core worker. Bob is asking, "Does the devotee keep his individual likes and dislikes?" Srila Prabhupada: "Yes, he keeps everything, but he gives preference to Krishna. Krishna says positively, 'I like these things'. We have to offer to Krishna what He likes, and then we will take the prasada. Krishna likes Radharani." So now Srila Prabhupada begins to speak about Radharani to a completely new person who doesn't know anything. "Krishna likes Radharani. Therefore all the gopis are trying to push Radharani to Krishna. 'Krishna likes this gopi. All right, let's push Her.' That is called Krishna consciousness." Bob said, "Is Krishna attractive to rascals?" Srila Prabhupada said, "Oh yes, He as the greatest rascal also." Then Bob asked, "How can you say that Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is a rascal?" Srila Prabhupada began to laugh. "Because He is always teasing the gopis. Yes. Sometimes, when Radharani would go out, Krishna would attack Her. And when She would fall down, She would say, 'O Krishna, don't torture Me in that way.' They would fall on the ground and Krishna would take an opportunity to kiss Her." Srila Prabhupada laughed again and said, "So Radharani was very pleased, but superficially Krishna was the greatest rascal. So unless rascaldom is in Krishna, then how could rascaldom be existent in this world?"

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Murali Mohan Prabhu, the entire Prappana Jivanamrtam is here:

 

www.mandala.com.au/prapanna

 

Joy!! Thank you for pointing this out Muralidhar Prabhu!! I guess I did not look far enough in the Google results.

 

Perhaps this will save me a lot of typing in the future (though transcribing the words of the Master is a joyful toil).

 

Dandavat pranamas!

[muralidhar_das]

No problemo Prabhu

[Guest guest]

 

"Because He is always teasing the gopis. Yes. Sometimes, when Radharani would go out, Krishna would attack Her. And when She would fall down, She would say, 'O Krishna, don't torture Me in that way.' They would fall on the ground and Krishna would take an opportunity to kiss Her."

It is something like Spiritual-Political Correctness, In other words if anybody else said this they would immediately be labeled a "sahajiya".

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

It is something like Spiritual-Political Correctness, In other words if anybody else said this they would immediately be labeled a "sahajiya".

Ha ha ha!! That's rich, Prabhu!

 

Personally, the only aspirant I will label a "sahajiya" is myself. Of course, my birth father is a self-proclaimed sahajiya...

 

No doubt, I am a phony hypocrite, but, Gurudev is always extolling us to seek The Real Thing, and not to be satisfied with cheap imitation.

 

The quote you provide appears to be from:

Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers

http://www.krishna.com/e-books/Perfect_Questions_Perfect_Answers.pdf

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: Everything. He must be very beautiful, He must be very

wise, He must be very powerful, He must be very famous...

Bob: Is Krsna attractive to rascals?

Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes! He was the greatest rascal also.

Bob: How is that?

Srila Prabhupada: [laughing] Because He was always teasing the gopis.

Syamasundara: Teasing?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Sometimes when Radharani would go out, Krsna

would attack Her, and when She would fall down--"Krsna, don't torture Me

in that way"--They would fall down, and Krsna would take the opportunity

and kiss Her. [He laughs.] So, Radharani was very pleased, but

superficially Krsna was the greatest rascal. So unless rascaldom is in

Krsna, how could rascaldom be existent in the world? Our formula of God

is that He is the source of everything. Unless rascaldom is in Krsna,

how can it be manifest... because He is the source of everything. But

His rascaldom is so nice that everyone worships His rascaldom.

Bob: What about the rascals who are not so nice?

Srila Prabhupada: No, rascaldom is not nice, but Krsna is absolute. He

is God. Therefore His rascaldom is also good. Krsna is all-good. God is

good.

Bob: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada: Therefore, when He becomes a rascal, that is also

good. That is Krsna. Rascaldom is not good, but when it is practiced by

Krsna, because He is absolutely good, that rascaldom is also good. This

one has to understand.

In the context of the conversation, it is clear to see that Srila Prabhupad is relating the intimate lila to demonstrate the nature of the Divine Autocrat--He can do as He pleases, and His pleasure is the nourishment for all that is. There is nothing salacious or cheap about this account.

 

As Anadi Prabhu points out, Vaishnavas progress at various paces. It is nobody's business (except Gurudev) to say who is qualified to hear/read the intimate pastimes.

 

However, as Param-Gurudev says, how can we know the Lord and His pastimes if He will not reveal them to us?

[Guest guest]

 

It is something like Spiritual-Political Correctness, In other words if anybody else said this they would immediately be labeled a "sahajiya".

 

Ha ha ha!! That's rich, Prabhu!

 

Personally, the only aspirant I will label a "sahajiya" is myself. ...

 

No doubt, I am a phony hypocrite, but, Gurudev is always extolling us to seek The Real Thing, and not to be satisfied with cheap imitation.

 

But what is the "Real Thing"? And then what is the "cheap imitation"?

 

 

So, I certainly cannot tell you whether you were qualified to hear these pastimes from Sripad Bhaktivendanta Narayan Maharaj, or if he is qualified to recite these pastimes to you, but the fact (as related by you) that he no longer is blessing the eager in such a manner ought to be revelatory to you if Sripad Narayan Maharaj is Guru to you.

 

..."or if he is qualified to recite these pastimes to you"? It seems that originally raised the specter of "cheap imitation" exactly at this point when you started this thread.

 

 

(in English; once my Gurudev recited Gita Govinda for some Western disciples saying: I only do this because you do not understand the words), or the Tenth Canto Rasa Lila depictions.

 

 

So your guru can tell Gita Govinda to Western disciples, although his guru forbid it and Sripad Narayana Maharaja may not be quailified to give Hari katha on rasik subjects? Why? Is it just ma guru jagat guru? Is not an unqualified reciter of rasik Hari kathas the very definition of "cheap imitation"? Try to look more closely at what you are writing an see if you are being influenced by a sectarian view. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur wrote in Krsna Samhita that sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. He further explained that it is a difficult obstacle to overcome especially for kannisthas like ourselves.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

But what is the "Real Thing"? And then what is the "cheap imitation"?

Simple. The "Real Thing" is that which is given directly by the Lord and His Representative. "Cheap imitation" is that which comes from our own speculation, concoction, misinterpretation, etc.

 

 

 

..."or if he is qualified to recite these pastimes to you"? It seems that originally raised the specter of "cheap imitation" exactly at this point when you started this thread.

 

...

 

So your guru can tell Gita Govinda to Western disciples, although his guru forbid it and Sripad Narayana Maharaja may not be quailified to give Hari katha on rasik subjects? Why? Is it just ma guru jagat guru? Is not an unqualified reciter of rasik Hari kathas the very definition of "cheap imitation"? Try to look more closely at what you are writing an see if you are being influenced by a sectarian view. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur wrote in Krsna Samhita that sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. He further explained that it is a difficult obstacle to overcome especially for kannisthas like ourselves.

No need to twist my words. I hoped my meaning was abundantly clear--I am not qualified to say who is qualified and who is not. If you are asking for my own worthless opinion, I am inclined to believe that Sripad Narayan Maharaj *is* who his disciples have faith he is, regardless of any special rasa he might have with the Guru Varga from whom I seek shelter (and, really, this is nothing I should mention, given that I've never heard Gurudev make mention of this).

 

So many wonderful Vaishnava well-wishers, "Uncles", "Aunts", friends, etc. from my childhood and beyond have taken shelter of Narayan Maharaj. Surely, the Lord is protecting and nurturing them through His servant.

 

As for my Gurudeva's qualification to recite Gita Govinda in Sanskrit to his Sanskrit-illiterate Western disciples, I have no doubt whatsoever. His Gurudev invested all of his faith, insight, and potency in Srila Govinda Maharaja. In everything he does, Gurudev is the perfect model of a Vaishnava. His study of Shastra was directly supervised by his Gurudev. He read what Param-Gurudev instructed him to read, and, in cases, heard Shastra directly from Srila Sridhar Maharaj (without reading first).

 

Narayan Maharaj was brought by Anadi Prabhu into the conversation from which this thread was born, as being the source of his own greed for hearing the intimate pastimes. Certainly, I could have ignored his mention, and proceeded strictly discussing the subject matter, but I wished to offer no disrespect by ignoring. I hope I have offered no disrespect by mentioning him without adequate glorification.

 

That said, let my prayer to Gurudev and Thakur Bhaktivinode be to protect me from sectarianism!!

 

Dayal Nitai!!

 

To add something new to the discussion: the pastimes of Radha-Krishna and the Gopis are eternally ongoing, are they not? As they are eternally ongoing, are they not also eternally fresh and new? Despite the transcendental nature of Shastra, while it can give *entry* to the eternal pastimes (lila) of the Lord, can they contain the totality of the lila?

 

Yet, if the Lord chooses to, all can be revealed to us, yes?

[muralidhar_das]

 

But what is the "Real Thing"? And then what is the "cheap imitation"?

 

The real thing, according to Srila Sridhar Maharaj and Srila Govinda Maharaj, is to engage in Seva of the Deities in the temple of Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Gandharvika Giridhari.

 

If you want to meditate on pastimes, if you want to engage in the high smaranam on Radha-Govinda Lila, meditate on the pastime of putting flowers at the feet of Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Gandharvika Giridhari in the temple.

 

 

 

 

So your guru can tell Gita Govinda to Western disciples, although his guru forbid it and Sripad Narayana Maharaja may not be quailified to give Hari katha on rasik subjects? Why? Is it just ma guru jagat guru? Is not an unqualified reciter of rasik Hari kathas the very definition of "cheap imitation"? Try to look more closely at what you are writing an see if you are being influenced by a sectarian view. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur wrote in Krsna Samhita that sectarianism is a natural byproduct of the Absolute Truth. He further explained that it is a difficult obstacle to overcome especially for kannisthas like ourselves.

 

 

From your angle of vision things seem to be this way. But we disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaj are looking at things from a viewpoint diametrically opposite to you. From where we stand the pathway to the spiritual world looks like a pathway full of chores such as washing pots and cleaning drains. We will leave you on your own to enjoy thinking about the many details of nitya-lila that are contained in Gita Govinda, for we have much work to do in this material world cleaning pots and throwing out garbage.

 

matala harijana kirtana range pujala raga-patha gaurava bhange

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

We will leave you on your own to enjoy thinking about the many details of nitya-lila that are contained in Gita Govinda, for we have much work to do in this material world cleaning pots and throwing out garbage.

Thank you, Muralidhar for providing a more perfect answer to the Guest's questions than I ever could!

 

Of course, as I am here at work, avoiding cleaning the pots and thowing out the garbage, let me post a further quote from Prapanna-Jivanamrita to further illustrate the mood of Param-Gurudev.

 

From (thank you again Prabhu): http://www.mandala.com.au/prapanna/preface.html#TWO

 

 

According to the intensity of surrender - to the point of no return - the quality of the magnitude of truth encountered may be measured. The inner sweetness of the truth and its infinite characteristic attracts the devotees' hearts to the highest degree, so much that they never feel any satisfaction of achievement in what is actually the acme of their highest fortune. In Vaikuntha, only peacefulness and servitorship are present, with a hint of friendship. If we commit the offense of giving more attention to law than to love, we will be 'cast down' from Goloka to Vaikuntha: Goloka is the land of love, and there the inhabitants know nothing more. And by love is meant self-sacrifice and self-forgetfulness for the service of Krsna, without a care for one's good or bad future - total risk in the extreme.

So, one could certainly (mis)interpret this to mean "yes, take the 'total risk' of reading the intimate details (as service to Krishna)", if not for the qualifying "According to the intensity of surrender". The mood of surrender is: You give me what I need; you know better than I do what will be my proper postion and engagement.

[Guest guest]

 

 

From your angle of vision things seem to be this way. But we disciples of Srila Sridhar Maharaj are looking at things from a viewpoint diametrically opposite to you. From where we stand the pathway to the spiritual world looks like a pathway full of chores such as washing pots and cleaning drains. We will leave you on your own to enjoy thinking about the many details of nitya-lila that are contained in Gita Govinda, for we have much work to do in this material world cleaning pots and throwing out garbage.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj's disciples don't have a monopoly on the "work now samadhi later" program. That program is always there for those persons on such a level of sukriti (or lack of) which seems to be about 99.99% of us at this juncture of the Kali Yuga. I was not advocating some kind of lila smaranam sadhan. I simply thought that Murali_Mohan_das was being a bit judgmental or sectarian in his view. Certainly he did not elaborate on his viewpoint which was what I was trying to get him to do. Why can one guru speak about high topics and another not? Come on, he even said that his guru spoke on Gita Govinda. Anadi said that he had previously heard some high rasik kathas from Sripad Narayana Maharaja. Are not the kathas of Gita Govinda rather high and rasik? I certainly believe if Murali_Mohan_das' guru wishes to speak of Gita Govinda that he has every right to do so. But to think that only my guru has that right seems a little narrow minded to express on a forum where the participants have many different gurus. Obviously all of us will believe that our guru and param guru are the best but when dealing with others who have gurus in Gaudiya Math and Iskcon its best to at least temporarily suspend that mood, unless we have the ulterior motive of converting everyone that we communicate with.

[Guest guest]

 

(in English; once my Gurudev recited Gita Govinda for some Western disciples saying: I only do this because you do not understand the words)

Srila Govinda Maharaja never recited Gita Govinda in English for his Western disciples. Actually he sang some sanskrit stanzas of it that he learned as a young boy, and then laughed that it was alright because the Westerners could not understand what he was singing. We need to be careful about what we say . If we are not sure then don't say it, especially about Gurudeva. This wrong information will give people a wrong idea. This is not good.

[Guest guest]

P.S. Also there is that "relevant quote from the holy Monty Python's Meaning of Life." One cannot represent the conception of Guru Maharaja and be so glib with an off color statement such as you have made. In our daily lives we Westerners may be conditioned to take obscene material as something normal, but Guru Maharaja and Swami Maharaja would be shocked by such a statement, certainly because in this context it is concerning not foolishly rushing into the highest lila. In the least others will think that Govinda Maharaja's disciples are uneducated and untrained. At worst, some will jump to conclusions and make some aparadha against Govinda Maharaja. Again, be very careful what you say if you identify yourself as a member of the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math on an internet forum. Please do not misrepresent our Guardians, for some reaction will certanly come.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Srila Govinda Maharaja never recited Gita Govinda in English for his Western disciples. Actually he sang some sanskrit stanzas of it that he learned as a young boy, and then laughed that it was alright because the Westerners could not understand what he was singing. We need to be careful about what we say . If we are not sure then don't say it, especially about Gurudeva. This wrong information will give people a wrong idea. This is not good.

Thank you for making that abundantly clear (his recitation being in Sanskrit). I thought I had done so, but, obviously, I left much room for misunderstanding.

 

Also, thanks for clarifying that Gurudeva learned Gita Govinda as a child and not during his service to his Guru Maharaja. This was not clear to me.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

P.S. Also there is that "relevant quote from the holy Monty Python's Meaning of Life." One cannot represent the conception of Guru Maharaja and be so glib with an off color statement such as you have made. In our daily lives we Westerners may be conditioned to take obscene material as something normal, but Guru Maharaja and Swami Maharaja would be shocked by such a statement, certainly because in this context it is concerning not foolishly rushing into the highest lila. In the least others will think that Govinda Maharaja's disciples are uneducated and untrained. At worst, some will jump to conclusions and make some aparadha against Govinda Maharaja. Again, be very careful what you say if you identify yourself as a member of the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math on an internet forum. Please do not misrepresent our Guardians, for some reaction will certanly come.

Yes, Prabhu!! You are so correct. Really, I should sign each of my posts with a disclaimer that I am a hypocrite who does not follow his Gurudeva's instructions while begging others to do so.

 

The title I chose for this thread applies equally to those rushing into reading intimate pastimes as it does to me having the audacity to try to shed light on the matter with my own speculative comments, and quotes from Guru Varga which I can barely comprehend (if at all).

 

Surely, prefacing a quote from Guru Maharaj with an off-color quote from Monty Python (it *is* an illustrative quote, is it not (if glib) ?) is offensive, and I shall get the appropriate reaction. If Gurudev was present before me (or the next time I have his darshan), perhaps I would be blessed by a thrashing.

 

Thank you for your kind and gentle correction, and for making clear to all on this forum that I am *not* representative of the quality of my superior Godbrothers and Godsisters, and do not in any way embody my Gurudeva's mood of devotion.

 

Gurudeva's mood is so sweet and magnanimous, while I am so bitter, envious, and a slave to my mind.

 

Jaya Gurudeva!!! Jaya Gaura Bhakta Vrinda!!!

[Guest guest]

Murali Mohan Prabhu, Well now that changes everything. Your guru never gave Gita Govinda katha to his disciples and that makes perfect sense. Yet still if you assumed that he did, it is a good thing that you did not doubt him, either way. We can have faith in our guru without declaring or subtly inferring that another's guru is a "cheap imitation". Such a stance makes two-way and open communication impossible. The good fences means good neighbors policy means nothing when we decide to communicate on that medium which breaks down fences, namely the internet. Your guru has the right to create a fence between his and other Gaudiya Math missions especially if they have strong differences. The same can be said for the other Gaudiya Math gurus especially Narayana Maharaja stating that the descendents of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati should "boycott the babajis". It is his right to erect a fence if he doesn't want his followers and others to follow the different babajis. But to use the same language and stance as one's guru in the internet setting is a kind of denial of the reality of the situation in cyberspace. Either we are trying to communicate or just make propaganda. Gaudiya Vaisnava forums on the internet are a poor venue for propaganda. Yet at the same time it is possible to influence others with our realizations which are based on our own associations. We don't find the different acaryas of the many Gaudiya societies surfing these sites and posting. A situation where barriers are broken down by instant communication does not fit with their short term goals. They have taken on a new class of neophytes and a trying to keep those beginners from straying and becoming confused. Such acaryas may also keep to their own group, but it is only to set the example for the new class, to help curb that wandering tendency. Yet internet forums are in fact, the land of wandering and to deny so, is to merely engage in another form of imitation and self deception.

[Shakti-Fan]

I must say Guest of Mind Your Mind has some good insights about factionalism and Hare Krishna chat rooms. On another thread Theist is remembering Puru Prabhu:

 

 

Yes this is true. He often would make this clear by repeating Prabhupada's quote, " I am of no faction." It would be a fitting inscription on his tombstone if there was to be one ...

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Murali Mohan Prabhu, Well now that changes everything. Your guru never gave Gita Govinda katha to his disciples and that makes perfect sense. Yet still if you assumed that he did, it is a good thing that you did not doubt him, either way.

Thank you Prabhu for your merciful words.

 

It appears I have John Kerry's gift for communication and being misunderstood.

 

I had cited my Gurudeva's recitation of Gita Govinda (which, it has been clarified for all, he learned as a boy (his father (if my porous memory correctly serves) was a noted (in the region) professional singer)) in Sanskrit for his non-Sanskrit speaking disciples as an example of his mood of *caution*. It is my offense to have presented it in a way that you could misinterpret as a "my guru can do, but others can not", when that was the exact opposite of my intention.

 

 

We can have faith in our guru without declaring or subtly inferring that another's guru is a "cheap imitation". Such a stance makes two-way and open communication impossible.

So very true. I still fail to see how, in this particular thread, I subtly inferred (or grossly declared) that anyone's guru is a "cheap imitation". When I said I was not qualified to judge, I meant exactly that.

 

I am not qualified to judge my *own* Guru's qualifications, and, it is not his qualifications that led me to seek his shelter. I found myself *charmed* by Gurudeva's sweet, humble nature during a time when I was *desperate* for relief from my miseries (that time was particularly desperate though, certainly, from day to day, I cling to "sanity" with my fingernails).

 

 

Your guru has the right to create a fence between his and other Gaudiya Math missions especially if they have strong differences.

Gurudeva's more intimate servitors might have a different perspective, but I have seen no evidence of any fence-building on the part of Srila Govinda Maharaja.

 

Rather (and let me follow his example), his example is one of fidelity. He is whole-heartedly focusing on nourishing and maintaining the mission of his Gurudev to the exclusion of all other considerations.

 

 

But to use the same language and stance as one's guru in the internet setting is a kind of denial of the reality of the situation in cyberspace.

Once again, please do not confuse Gurudeva with me. I do *not* use his language as my own (a direct quote is a direct quote, paraphrasing is paraphrasing, and I try to qualify my speculations as such and not state them as fact). Citing Param-Gurudeva's use of the "Fools rush in..." quote was not directed at anybody in particular, but to illustrate a principle. How the principle is applied is left as an exercise to the reader.

 

 

Either we are trying to communicate or just make propaganda.

While I might make bold declarations for the sake of rhetoric, I certainly hope my inner motivation is discourse and not propaganda (my conscious motive certainly is not to propagandize). I welcome corrections from such kind souls as yourself. In these discussions, I certainly have gained valuable perspective and read relevant scriptural references offered by others for my benefit.

 

For the record, I now wish I could remove the glib Monty Python quote from the opening post of this thread, but have found that I cannot do so with my current priveleges.

 

Despite being a slave to my mind, I'm hoping I can take my heart's advice to sit on my tongue for a while (maybe a long while), take the medicine of Krishna Nam and sadhu-sanga, and make some atonement for my offenses.

 

Yours worthlessly,

 

--MMd